Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV: Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
We see similar references to God's creation of man such as in Psalm 139 and it seems clear that there is nothing wrong with God's design at least in how it was originally intended. Therefore even with the fallen nature due to Adam's sin that we all inherit even unregenerate man is responsible for his actions which are contrary to a nature in which "God has set eternity in their hearts." ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). Man originally was made in the image of God; now it may be argued that we bear some resemblance to what we were originally but now we are also in the image of man; that is of the physical appearance of our parents.
Another thing we must consider is how the great prophets all responded in the presence of God. We can examine Isaiah 6:5 as well as the Prophet Ezekiel and Daniel and John in Revelation 1. Even John recognized he wasn't worthy to open the seals and wept ( Revelation 5:4). Keep in mind that this was the Disciple closest to our Lord when He was physically on earth but he realized that only Christ was worthy. We therefore have value because of Him; it is His righteousness that gives us that.
That is why I prefer to view His righteousness as coming from the inside out; not as some cloak over us. There is indeed His perfection in a believer but also the vesiges of who we were even if in actuality not who we still are in light of the promised glorification. Again; only a TRUE believer can claim these promises; or more accurately can have Christ claim to be His own.
I get the sense that some who claim never to sin again think that they can be in God's presence without being flat on their faces. Going boldly into His presence still involves humility and is expressed by an intimate communication and fellowship between BOTH parties.
I am sure to start a fire on this one; praying these conversations can be edifying.
Instead of affirming any sinless perfection, I can say that I am living a victorious life in Christ, because His resurrected life and power works in me to will and do what the Holy Spirit leads me to do or to avoid. Only a believer will desire to obey God and endeavor to live a godly life in increasing measure. I wish I was completely sinless, but I know the depth of the sinful nature is something we often underestimate. The powers, principalities, dominions, and rulers in the spirit realm who war against us are so much stronger than we are in our present mortal, corrupted state. We need the weapons supplied from the Spirit to fight and have victory each day. It is foolish to think that we can fight against that which is outside of us, let alone the sinful fleshly nature within us on our own strength, wisdom, and will. We need to affirm that greater is He that is in us than any that are in the world, even our own sinful nature. Jesus is the one who is greater, not my "new man". And we can be thankful that God has so condescended to live within us to be our Victor, Savior, Redeemer, Deliverer, and Shelter. Praise be to God who has blessed us so when we do not deserve any of His good work in us. We are debtors to God always, and will never have need to cease thanking Him or praising Him in this life and in Eternity.
It has become evident lately that subjects have been picked apart and it seems some intransigence has set in with certain responses. I am concerned with this discussion and the one previously on the Trinity (or however we choose to define God's 3 fold attributes) that even though many truths and scriptures are utilized as a whole; many comments seem to be counterproductive. Usually when things drift in that direction there is less and less scriptural backing of statements and they go on what seems more like personal attacks than "iron sharpening iron" as it were.
I would guess you have noticed that trend lately as well. This actually seems to have started with the KJV only controversy before these other two subjects came up a few weeks back. One obvious conclusion that can be brought up is that whenever there is SOME truth on both sides certain individuals don't want to concede that in holding out their particular viewpoint. The other point is that as I have said many times some things we can't fully understand (predestination for example which I have brought to the forefront fairly often being one of them).
Honestly, it makes me sad. I have to question how much time to spend on this forum as it seems genuine responses where anything productive can continue to occur after a topic is brought up seem to happen less and less; as well as others besides yours truly seeming to respond to my postings. I know what you're thinking it isn't about me; although I would hope to be used by God to edify someone on occasion as it seems happened previous to these recent postings. I still am hoping that there is some sort of routine checkup of prayer requests here (which get mixed up at times with discussion forum site).
Hopefully there can be a desire from this site for people to start obeying the Great Commission as well as consistently reading scriptures and prayer. I appreciate your friendship.
I think that as long as we are prayerfully responding to what others post we can be used by God in discussions, knowing that there is a wider audience here than just those who post whom we do not know about their maturity, newness to faith, or knowledge of the subjects under discussion. So, I think it is good to offer an alternative view than the one presented for the sake of these who may be undecided, confused, or taken in by false ideas, legalism, and half-truths. We wrestle with Scriptures together, and thus the Spirit brings clarity to us who participate in discussion as well as attempting to present ones viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks, defamation, and insensitive remarks. I endeavor to converse in such a manner, but knowing that I make mistakes and fall short at times, I want to also sense the lead of the Spirit as to when to exit a conversation for the sake of all involved either posters or listeners.
Any way we look at it, we can hope that God's wonderful Spirit in us will help us be discerning, compassionate, and flexible enough to hear what another has to say with honest consideration and thoughtful acknowledgement of what aligns with Scripture properly in another's explanation of their views, and spiritual understanding of what is not properly truth.
I'll defer to your judgment; as it is probably more mature than mine; and you have been on this site a lot longer than I have I would expect...
I will have to evaluate my own time on this site and if and when I should respond or not. It isn't just the subject matter that worries me it is a general mindset of having to debate a subject without much scripture; or things that don't really add any meaning to an argument-at least from my vantage point. Do we really want to know the Lord better when discussions like this come up in the first place? I don't sense lately much teachability; I'd like to learn some stuff too with these debates. Nothing wrong I guess with the sometimes detailed scriptural analysis; except for the fact thought patterns and the scriptures used confuse me quite often as to how exactly they corroborate any particular concept brought up. Maybe it's just me.
I'm hoping there is some use here for those who are young in the faith who want to grow; although I can't remember the last time anyone actually expressed being anew believer here. I sense that people who have had some faith for a time are more represented; and that coming with whatever baggage associated with their own viewpoints. I sense that many have been taught a certain way and haven't really taken the time quite often to search the scriptures as Bereans. Again; there usually is a certain truth in both "camps" whether predestination vs. free will; the "Trinity" or concept of one God. Properly dividing the scriptures in context and precise meanings (or at least as close as we can get to it) is also helpful.
I don't know maybe I am hypocritical; I thought I was trying to give an open minded presentation in regard to the aforementioned factors; but perhaps not. I hope to hear from you on your thoughts about emphasizing daily scripture reading and prayer as well as fulfillment of the commandment of the Great Commission as to how this site can prompt participants in that way.
Hello again Richard. The Holy Spirit will lead you in this matter. I am trusting that this is true for me, too.
As far as the topics that have been discussed lately, many of the positions presented are ones I have never really heard of before and so I do want to learn more about the tenets of such positions so I can evaluate whether I can come into agreement with the poster or to voice another viewpoint. Before coming to this site, I had not known about KJV-onlyism, Sabbath keeping necessity, complete sinless perfectionism, premillennial dispensationalism, and others. So I have learned more about what people mean concerning these positions and then compare them to Scriptures, not in the way of picking out specific Scriptures in isolation as much as gaining a more comprehensive, contextual, knowledge of the teachings in Scripture. This does not mean I am in the right on all these matters, but am still learning and growing.
I have been on this site for just over two years and there used to be many more posters asking questions about specific Scriptures or Christian living or teachings they have heard. There used to be far more prayer requests. I do hope that people will feel more comfortable bringing such things forward for discussion.
I agree that humility is the virtue needed by all believers when considering whether we can stand before God. We are not and never will be on equal footing with God in the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Even when we are glorified in the resurrection, we will still be a creature made by God, graciously adopted as a child of God through the new birth. But we are not natural children of God. We do not have a divine nature as some who believe in sinless perfection say that we acquire in the new birth. We will always have a human nature in this life and the next. The difference being in this life, this body of death, the life we have affected by a sinful nature that has been spiritually reborn, a "new creation" fitted to serve God in faith, devotion, and love, continues to be affected by sin in this world and in our sinful flesh. We are still corrupted by sin in this life. This is why we age, get ill, and die. But when glorified, we will no longer have this mortal body that can die again with its corruption and sinful nature. That is all left in the grave. We will put on the incorruptible immortal nature that is from above. not of earth. We will no longer be tempted by sin, for sin will be completely defeated and relegated to the lake of fire with the devil and his angels, and all unbelievers, and death, the final enemy that comes from the condemnation of sin in man,
As a life long believer, I can look back and see how much I have grown in grace, holiness, and knowledge in and of Jesus Christ. I can remember the sinful ways I acted along the way to today. I have been gradually sanctified and have been able to overcome sin more victoriously the longer I walk with God. And yet, I know the need to put to death the sinful nature daily, to refuse to let it hold reign over me because I belong to Jesus and He is my strength. righteousness, and salvation. I think this is the experience of most believers who walk long with the Lord. cont.
We see similar references to God's creation of man such as in Psalm 139 and it seems clear that there is nothing wrong with God's design at least in how it was originally intended. Therefore even with the fallen nature due to Adam's sin that we all inherit even unregenerate man is responsible for his actions which are contrary to a nature in which "God has set eternity in their hearts." ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). Man originally was made in the image of God; now it may be argued that we bear some resemblance to what we were originally but now we are also in the image of man; that is of the physical appearance of our parents.
Another thing we must consider is how the great prophets all responded in the presence of God. We can examine Isaiah 6:5 as well as the Prophet Ezekiel and Daniel and John in Revelation 1. Even John recognized he wasn't worthy to open the seals and wept ( Revelation 5:4). Keep in mind that this was the Disciple closest to our Lord when He was physically on earth but he realized that only Christ was worthy. We therefore have value because of Him; it is His righteousness that gives us that.
That is why I prefer to view His righteousness as coming from the inside out; not as some cloak over us. There is indeed His perfection in a believer but also the vesiges of who we were even if in actuality not who we still are in light of the promised glorification. Again; only a TRUE believer can claim these promises; or more accurately can have Christ claim to be His own.
I get the sense that some who claim never to sin again think that they can be in God's presence without being flat on their faces. Going boldly into His presence still involves humility and is expressed by an intimate communication and fellowship between BOTH parties.
I am sure to start a fire on this one; praying these conversations can be edifying.
Instead of affirming any sinless perfection, I can say that I am living a victorious life in Christ, because His resurrected life and power works in me to will and do what the Holy Spirit leads me to do or to avoid. Only a believer will desire to obey God and endeavor to live a godly life in increasing measure. I wish I was completely sinless, but I know the depth of the sinful nature is something we often underestimate. The powers, principalities, dominions, and rulers in the spirit realm who war against us are so much stronger than we are in our present mortal, corrupted state. We need the weapons supplied from the Spirit to fight and have victory each day. It is foolish to think that we can fight against that which is outside of us, let alone the sinful fleshly nature within us on our own strength, wisdom, and will. We need to affirm that greater is He that is in us than any that are in the world, even our own sinful nature. Jesus is the one who is greater, not my "new man". And we can be thankful that God has so condescended to live within us to be our Victor, Savior, Redeemer, Deliverer, and Shelter. Praise be to God who has blessed us so when we do not deserve any of His good work in us. We are debtors to God always, and will never have need to cease thanking Him or praising Him in this life and in Eternity.
It has become evident lately that subjects have been picked apart and it seems some intransigence has set in with certain responses. I am concerned with this discussion and the one previously on the Trinity (or however we choose to define God's 3 fold attributes) that even though many truths and scriptures are utilized as a whole; many comments seem to be counterproductive. Usually when things drift in that direction there is less and less scriptural backing of statements and they go on what seems more like personal attacks than "iron sharpening iron" as it were.
I would guess you have noticed that trend lately as well. This actually seems to have started with the KJV only controversy before these other two subjects came up a few weeks back. One obvious conclusion that can be brought up is that whenever there is SOME truth on both sides certain individuals don't want to concede that in holding out their particular viewpoint. The other point is that as I have said many times some things we can't fully understand (predestination for example which I have brought to the forefront fairly often being one of them).
Honestly, it makes me sad. I have to question how much time to spend on this forum as it seems genuine responses where anything productive can continue to occur after a topic is brought up seem to happen less and less; as well as others besides yours truly seeming to respond to my postings. I know what you're thinking it isn't about me; although I would hope to be used by God to edify someone on occasion as it seems happened previous to these recent postings. I still am hoping that there is some sort of routine checkup of prayer requests here (which get mixed up at times with discussion forum site).
Hopefully there can be a desire from this site for people to start obeying the Great Commission as well as consistently reading scriptures and prayer. I appreciate your friendship.
Agape.
I think that as long as we are prayerfully responding to what others post we can be used by God in discussions, knowing that there is a wider audience here than just those who post whom we do not know about their maturity, newness to faith, or knowledge of the subjects under discussion. So, I think it is good to offer an alternative view than the one presented for the sake of these who may be undecided, confused, or taken in by false ideas, legalism, and half-truths. We wrestle with Scriptures together, and thus the Spirit brings clarity to us who participate in discussion as well as attempting to present ones viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks, defamation, and insensitive remarks. I endeavor to converse in such a manner, but knowing that I make mistakes and fall short at times, I want to also sense the lead of the Spirit as to when to exit a conversation for the sake of all involved either posters or listeners.
Any way we look at it, we can hope that God's wonderful Spirit in us will help us be discerning, compassionate, and flexible enough to hear what another has to say with honest consideration and thoughtful acknowledgement of what aligns with Scripture properly in another's explanation of their views, and spiritual understanding of what is not properly truth.
I will have to evaluate my own time on this site and if and when I should respond or not. It isn't just the subject matter that worries me it is a general mindset of having to debate a subject without much scripture; or things that don't really add any meaning to an argument-at least from my vantage point. Do we really want to know the Lord better when discussions like this come up in the first place? I don't sense lately much teachability; I'd like to learn some stuff too with these debates. Nothing wrong I guess with the sometimes detailed scriptural analysis; except for the fact thought patterns and the scriptures used confuse me quite often as to how exactly they corroborate any particular concept brought up. Maybe it's just me.
I'm hoping there is some use here for those who are young in the faith who want to grow; although I can't remember the last time anyone actually expressed being anew believer here. I sense that people who have had some faith for a time are more represented; and that coming with whatever baggage associated with their own viewpoints. I sense that many have been taught a certain way and haven't really taken the time quite often to search the scriptures as Bereans. Again; there usually is a certain truth in both "camps" whether predestination vs. free will; the "Trinity" or concept of one God. Properly dividing the scriptures in context and precise meanings (or at least as close as we can get to it) is also helpful.
I don't know maybe I am hypocritical; I thought I was trying to give an open minded presentation in regard to the aforementioned factors; but perhaps not. I hope to hear from you on your thoughts about emphasizing daily scripture reading and prayer as well as fulfillment of the commandment of the Great Commission as to how this site can prompt participants in that way.
As far as the topics that have been discussed lately, many of the positions presented are ones I have never really heard of before and so I do want to learn more about the tenets of such positions so I can evaluate whether I can come into agreement with the poster or to voice another viewpoint. Before coming to this site, I had not known about KJV-onlyism, Sabbath keeping necessity, complete sinless perfectionism, premillennial dispensationalism, and others. So I have learned more about what people mean concerning these positions and then compare them to Scriptures, not in the way of picking out specific Scriptures in isolation as much as gaining a more comprehensive, contextual, knowledge of the teachings in Scripture. This does not mean I am in the right on all these matters, but am still learning and growing.
I have been on this site for just over two years and there used to be many more posters asking questions about specific Scriptures or Christian living or teachings they have heard. There used to be far more prayer requests. I do hope that people will feel more comfortable bringing such things forward for discussion.
I agree that humility is the virtue needed by all believers when considering whether we can stand before God. We are not and never will be on equal footing with God in the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Even when we are glorified in the resurrection, we will still be a creature made by God, graciously adopted as a child of God through the new birth. But we are not natural children of God. We do not have a divine nature as some who believe in sinless perfection say that we acquire in the new birth. We will always have a human nature in this life and the next. The difference being in this life, this body of death, the life we have affected by a sinful nature that has been spiritually reborn, a "new creation" fitted to serve God in faith, devotion, and love, continues to be affected by sin in this world and in our sinful flesh. We are still corrupted by sin in this life. This is why we age, get ill, and die. But when glorified, we will no longer have this mortal body that can die again with its corruption and sinful nature. That is all left in the grave. We will put on the incorruptible immortal nature that is from above. not of earth. We will no longer be tempted by sin, for sin will be completely defeated and relegated to the lake of fire with the devil and his angels, and all unbelievers, and death, the final enemy that comes from the condemnation of sin in man,
As a life long believer, I can look back and see how much I have grown in grace, holiness, and knowledge in and of Jesus Christ. I can remember the sinful ways I acted along the way to today. I have been gradually sanctified and have been able to overcome sin more victoriously the longer I walk with God. And yet, I know the need to put to death the sinful nature daily, to refuse to let it hold reign over me because I belong to Jesus and He is my strength. righteousness, and salvation. I think this is the experience of most believers who walk long with the Lord. cont.
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