Revelation 4:1 (KJV) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, ( COME UP HITHER, ) and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER.
Hereafter means the things he mentioned in ch 2 and 3.
COME. UP. HERE. This is not Heaven in you, it's a Location.
John is taken to the future tense and there is the 24 elders and the Lamp stand that was the Church in Ch 1.
Revelation 5:10 . And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Lee, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
John did not go to heaven. He saw a VISION. Heavens doors were opened. The TRADITIONS OF MAN has done great harm to the truth of the scriptures.
John 3:13 NO man has ASCENDED up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
Colossians 1:27 .....MYSTERY among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU....
John 3:13 ....says even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN; Colossians 1:27 says CHRIST IN YOU. Traditions of man says heaven is a PLACE; scripture says HEAVEN IS A PERSON.
You are where GOD DWELLS; you are HEAVEN where GOD'S temple and throne is, you are the DOORS and/or GATES to heaven. The 24 (not necessarily literally 24;but, representing) those that have gone before you in truth; now at Christ's feet. This is how GOD DWELLS ON EARTH; IN YOU, EACH ONE OF US. Christ is our HIGH PRIEST; we are a kingdom of priest; a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a CHOSEN GENERATION, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people...
WORSHIP AND GIVE THANKS TO HIM.
The scriptures will make more sense to you when you start seeing heaven as people. MOST don't know Christ dwells in them (they think they are going to a place), that's why there is so much confusion and sin in this world. If you haven't come to the truth that CHRIST IS IN YOU then Satan still has his dwelling place in you.
Matthew 12:28 If I cast out devils by the SPIRIT OF GOD, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
It's more than just believe and go to a PLACE CALLED HEAVEN.
Where they're "CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT" IN CH 4, AND DESCRIBED AS THE REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB IN CH 5.
In Revelation Ch 2 and 3 you see John's writing to the 7 Churches, Ch 4:1 you see he's called up to heaven.
"The rapture has been taken place by this point"
Revelation 4:4. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, "CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT"; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Revelation 5:9-10. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD OUT OF EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and NATION"!!!;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Isn't it amazing you see them in Heaven when some say we don't go to Heaven, we inherit the Earth?
S Spencer, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
My answer to Lee may step on you answer a bit. I believe we all come to truth through the WORD. Our discussions with each other are for the edifying of the church. In Daniel, scripture says knowledge will increase. I believe this is happening. No other time has occasion presented itself for the church to converse the scriptures with each other so easily. The church was isolated into little community groups and not able to converse world wide. There are so many traditions of man that have a grip on us and it is extremely hard for that grip to be loosened. I was raised that heaven was a place you go if you believe. It has taken hundreds of hours in the WORD and SPIRIT to come to the truth what it means to be one with Christ. When we are glorified at the death of our present body; we want be confined by anything, we will be every place Christ is. OMNIPRESENT! Unseen or seen; whatever he chooses.
As I would like to put my perception on "Heaven". I myself believe Heaven to be an actual place. Not just in us as stated in Luke 17:21. As we are the tabernacles of God where He dwells when we receive His Holy Spirit. Even as God is life and in everything weather Blessed to receive the Spirit of Christ or not. Job 34:14-15.
The Holy Bible is a spiritual book though many, many, things are literal not just spiritual. God's wisdom is so divine that almost anything may be taken in both ways. For maybe a reason God knows why.
Some things to consider I find fascinating. How both Enoch and Elijah were literally taken up by God in there human bodies and never saw a physical death. Genesis 5:24, 2 Kings 2:11-12. I believe Elisha literally saw a chariot of fire. In the book of Enoch there are amazing things we truly cannot comprehend.
14:8 A vision thus appeared to me.
14:9 Behold, in that vision clouds and a mist invited me; agitated stars and flashes of lightning impelled and pressed me forwards, while winds in the vision assisted my flight, accelerating my progress.
14:10 They elevated me aloft to Heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror.
Paul stating about a friend with a vision in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. That he could not fully explain.
Also that Jesus Christ in His glorified body( Luke 24:39) was able to appear and disappear. Also He was taken up into the clouds Acts 1:9-11.
Fully understanding Heaven we are not to able. It is so beyond us it could be anything as nothing is impossible with God.
I could go on and on about this but would be a very long conversation. Maybe just adding some people with NDE's having out of body experiences, in the spirit, able to testify of things going on when they were dead. Seeing their own bodies of flesh before them. Being taken up to be in the presence of the Lord.
I agree we should all be in harmony, after all we're taught by the same Spirit, We may differ in some things but THERE ARE FUNDAMENTALS WE WANT.
It's a danger in studying the Bible all your life to prove a viewpoint and not letting the word say what it says, You begin to spiritualize ""ALL"" the text. And you will soon leave the truth.
Earl I think that's what you have done,
I've read quite a bit of your replies,
One can spiritualize and symbolize the scripture and twist it into saying almost anything.
Thank you
Here's my direct quote.
"Ch 4:1 you see he's called up to heaven."
Here's the verse.
Revelation 4:1 (KJV) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, ( COME UP HITHER, ) and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER.
Hereafter means the things he mentioned in ch 2 and 3.
COME. UP. HERE. This is not Heaven in you, it's a Location.
John is taken to the future tense and there is the 24 elders and the Lamp stand that was the Church in Ch 1.
Revelation 5:10 . And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
They sung a song-
They have been redeemed,
They're in white raiment,
They shall reign on earth,
And John saw them.
This is just answering the 24 elders question.
God bless you Lee.
John did not go to heaven. He saw a VISION. Heavens doors were opened. The TRADITIONS OF MAN has done great harm to the truth of the scriptures.
John 3:13 NO man has ASCENDED up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
Colossians 1:27 .....MYSTERY among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU....
John 3:13 ....says even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN; Colossians 1:27 says CHRIST IN YOU. Traditions of man says heaven is a PLACE; scripture says HEAVEN IS A PERSON.
You are where GOD DWELLS; you are HEAVEN where GOD'S temple and throne is, you are the DOORS and/or GATES to heaven. The 24 (not necessarily literally 24;but, representing) those that have gone before you in truth; now at Christ's feet. This is how GOD DWELLS ON EARTH; IN YOU, EACH ONE OF US. Christ is our HIGH PRIEST; we are a kingdom of priest; a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a CHOSEN GENERATION, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people...
WORSHIP AND GIVE THANKS TO HIM.
The scriptures will make more sense to you when you start seeing heaven as people. MOST don't know Christ dwells in them (they think they are going to a place), that's why there is so much confusion and sin in this world. If you haven't come to the truth that CHRIST IS IN YOU then Satan still has his dwelling place in you.
Matthew 12:28 If I cast out devils by the SPIRIT OF GOD, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
It's more than just believe and go to a PLACE CALLED HEAVEN.
These 24 elders represent the church,
Where they're "CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT" IN CH 4, AND DESCRIBED AS THE REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB IN CH 5.
In Revelation Ch 2 and 3 you see John's writing to the 7 Churches, Ch 4:1 you see he's called up to heaven.
"The rapture has been taken place by this point"
Revelation 4:4. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, "CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT"; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Revelation 5:9-10. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD OUT OF EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and NATION"!!!;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Isn't it amazing you see them in Heaven when some say we don't go to Heaven, we inherit the Earth?
My answer to Lee may step on you answer a bit. I believe we all come to truth through the WORD. Our discussions with each other are for the edifying of the church. In Daniel, scripture says knowledge will increase. I believe this is happening. No other time has occasion presented itself for the church to converse the scriptures with each other so easily. The church was isolated into little community groups and not able to converse world wide. There are so many traditions of man that have a grip on us and it is extremely hard for that grip to be loosened. I was raised that heaven was a place you go if you believe. It has taken hundreds of hours in the WORD and SPIRIT to come to the truth what it means to be one with Christ. When we are glorified at the death of our present body; we want be confined by anything, we will be every place Christ is. OMNIPRESENT! Unseen or seen; whatever he chooses.
Hebrews 13:2
Psalms 103:20
Psalms 104:4
Hebrews 1:7
As I would like to put my perception on "Heaven". I myself believe Heaven to be an actual place. Not just in us as stated in Luke 17:21. As we are the tabernacles of God where He dwells when we receive His Holy Spirit. Even as God is life and in everything weather Blessed to receive the Spirit of Christ or not. Job 34:14-15.
The Holy Bible is a spiritual book though many, many, things are literal not just spiritual. God's wisdom is so divine that almost anything may be taken in both ways. For maybe a reason God knows why.
Some things to consider I find fascinating. How both Enoch and Elijah were literally taken up by God in there human bodies and never saw a physical death. Genesis 5:24, 2 Kings 2:11-12. I believe Elisha literally saw a chariot of fire. In the book of Enoch there are amazing things we truly cannot comprehend.
14:8 A vision thus appeared to me.
14:9 Behold, in that vision clouds and a mist invited me; agitated stars and flashes of lightning impelled and pressed me forwards, while winds in the vision assisted my flight, accelerating my progress.
14:10 They elevated me aloft to Heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror.
Paul stating about a friend with a vision in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. That he could not fully explain.
Also that Jesus Christ in His glorified body( Luke 24:39) was able to appear and disappear. Also He was taken up into the clouds Acts 1:9-11.
Fully understanding Heaven we are not to able. It is so beyond us it could be anything as nothing is impossible with God.
I could go on and on about this but would be a very long conversation. Maybe just adding some people with NDE's having out of body experiences, in the spirit, able to testify of things going on when they were dead. Seeing their own bodies of flesh before them. Being taken up to be in the presence of the Lord.
Glorious
Job 19:25-27 (KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
I agree we should all be in harmony, after all we're taught by the same Spirit, We may differ in some things but THERE ARE FUNDAMENTALS WE WANT.
It's a danger in studying the Bible all your life to prove a viewpoint and not letting the word say what it says, You begin to spiritualize ""ALL"" the text. And you will soon leave the truth.
Earl I think that's what you have done,
I've read quite a bit of your replies,
One can spiritualize and symbolize the scripture and twist it into saying almost anything.
I pray you come to better hermeneutics.
May God bless you.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Please Sign In or Register to post comments...
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?