There was a Day when the sons of GOD came to present themselves before the Lord,and Satan came also among them- Job 1:6.
Now another Day arrived,the Lord's Day,seventh and last Day, seventh and last millennium,again Satan is also among the current sons of GOD( John 1:11-12),but strongly structured,more than in the time of Job,i.e. now he is with 7 heads,10 horns and a terrible TAIL- REVELATION 12:3-4-,it's a world religious MONSTER whose satanic system is established through a false Christianity in seven Continents-Europe,Asia,Africa,Oceania(Australia),North America, America Central and South America(7 regions of the Earth-7 heads of the dragon).His main partner is Catholicism ruled by the MAN Beast of sea,the current guide and leader/ruler of the Roman Catholic Church which rides upon the Beast, followed by Orthodox, and Anglicanism and Protestantism and their respective divisions called denominations and sects and movements gospel.Total adherents to Christianity are currently around 2.5 billion,but Scriptures warned:The Spirit speaks expressly,that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils;Speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Timothy 4:1-2combined with Romans 1:18-25.This is the devilish scenary of the 7 heads of the Devil,the red Dragon.
But there is also the religious esoteric,and kabbalistic,and spiritist Judaism, practiced in Israel,represented by ten tribes of the ancient Kingdom of Israel and its 10 Princes,one from each tribe.The MAN of sin,son of perdition,is from one of the 10 tribes,he should be of the tribe of Dan,and he is the little horn,the ileventh horn,which will manifest himself as Messiah,AN IMPOSTER- John 5:43-47 combined with Re.13:11,and will enthrone himself in Jerusalem. The next Pope to be elected in this current year, he will sit in the throne of the Messiah in Jerusalem-Re.13:2-first half of the last week,week 70th Dan.9:24-27
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Jesus was obedient to the Father, Jesus said many times it is not His will but the will of the Father who sent Him, the same as we are to do, John 4:34John 5:30Mark 3:35.
Do you believe that a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
First, I will have to say it was the will of the Father, Jesus at the end even asked His father if there was another way but not Jesus's will but the will of His Father, Matthew 26:39Luke 22:42. We are told this is the foundation of our faith, Jesus' sacrificial death. God cannot die God is Spirit He has no blood to shed for sin it had to be a man, His Son, born of a woman.
John 3:16 God gave His Son not Himself 1 John 2:221 John 4:32 John 1:7Romans 5:82 Corinthians 5:21, God cannot be made sin, 1 Corinthians 15:17 Jesus died, and God raised Him from the dead, the first man to live a perfect life, the first fruits of those who sleep in death. 1 Corinthians 15:14 as said if Jesus was not a man who lived a perfect life and died and was raised from the dead all is vain.
The first Adam was the first man Jesus was the last Adam and the second man, 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. The law had to be fulfilled by a man.
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
As we see Luke 2:51-52 Jesus grew up increasing in wisdom and stature in favor with God and man. Jesus was twelve years old and He knew His father was God, but it doesn't say Jesus knew then He was to be the Messiah. God also said He would raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, Deuteronomy 18:15, Isaiah 11:1-5Isaiah 61:1-2 confirmed in Luke 4:18-21. Romans 1:1-4 2 Timothy 2:8.
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:71 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 1:2Galatians 1:3Ephesians 1:2Ephesians 6:23Philippians 1:2Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1Genesis 1:31Proverbs 16:4Isaiah 45:18Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16.
The gospel is power!
Good advice is not worth the snap of the fingers unless there is power to see it through.
There is three steps to our Salvation.
Justification.
Sanctification.
Glorification
Justification is "an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner's faith in Christ." We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.
Sanctification is "the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy." Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one's life. It is the same as growing in the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.
Glorification is "God's final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity"
As Christians, we were justified when we confessed Christ and believed ( Romans 10:9), we are sanctified as we grow in holiness through the work of the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:11-32; Galatians 5:16-24, and we will someday be glorified when we are resurrected into eternal life ( Colossians 3:4).
Justification is a one-time event, sanctification is a process, and glorification is a future event.
If you are a Christian, you are guaranteed all three steps.
2Co.5:10:We must ALL appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ;that every one receive the things done in his body,according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad. -GET READY-
Re.1:20-The seven stars are the angels of the seven Churches(ANGELS?OR DOGS?):and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven Churches.(What we can see by the letters sent to the Churches of Asia is that several angels of the Churches unfortunately failed.By the way,around 65 years after His ascension,at that time the CHURCH OF ROME had completely apostatized( ROMANS 1:21-28),it was no longer part of the body of Christ,reason by which my Lord JESUS directed messages only to the seven Churches in Asia,they were also greatly threatened by the growth of apostasy and idolatry,but my Lord JESUS was watching Satan's movement against His Church,against His body here on earth.The church of Rome would have been the eighth if it had not apostatized as a whole)
Is.56:10-11
10His watchmen are blind:they are all ignorant,they are all dumb DOGS,they cannot bark;sleeping,lying down,loving to slumber.
11Yea,they are greedy DOGS which can never have enough,and they are SHEPHERDS(PASTORS)that cannot understand:they all look to their own way,every one for his gain,from his quarter.
OTOH,the prophet(the preachers of the Word of GOD)that teacheth lies,he is the TAIL-Is.9:15-,yeah,the TAIL of the Red Dragon- Revelation 12:3-4)
1Pe.4:17-18
17The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD:and if it first begin at us,what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?(Compare with 1Corinthians 6:1-3 and Re.22:15)
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Celebration of the Lamb's marriage?ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT of BABYLON
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28Revelation 20:14.
Moses didn't write the laws - God did. Moses just delivered them. You're contempt and total disregard for them is dangerous.
Jesus gave us 2 "new" commandments, not new as in abolishing the old, but to look at the old in a new, more concise way. The first covers the first 4 commandments, how to worship God, and the second cover how to treat others with God's unconditional love. Jesus lived the 10 commands.
No scripture tells the church to start worshiping on the 1st day of the week. No verse tells the church that our rest in Jesus takes the place of the 4th commandment. The laws of sacrifice were replaced by the sacrifice of Christ's blood on the cross so were no longer necessary but the commandments where not, else how would man know how to l live righteously? Christ's salvation gives us the way to forgiveness of our sins but how dose man know what righteous is without the laws of God? After the sin of Adam and the world was cursed, mankind has had a difficult time following God's law, even after Jesus' paid the price for our because mankind still sins without the blood of Jesus washing them away. You seem to not have any regard for any of the commandments not just the 4th and yet they tell us plainly what sin is. How do we know if we don't have them? Again, I believe the bible shows us Jesus obeyed His Father's laws even the 4th. Jesus' teachings of righteousness were based on the 10 commandments. Show me where HE put these law's of His Father in such contempt? In Romans 1: 29-32 the verses give a list of the unrighteousness of men to the point of becoming reprobates. Study each one and you can see they are based on all 10 commandments. My prayers are with you.
1) The 10 commands are not the "the law of Moses, they are the laws of God and, where in scripture are we told we can change any of them? I have yet to see one definitive scripture that says the church changed the meaning of the Sabbath (the 6th day) to the 7th day. Christ is our spiritual rest 24/7 but we are to also rest on one particular day that God commanded us to. There are no definitive verses that tell us that Jesus didn't worship on Saturday, or the church either. The church met on Sunday to do other things but that wouldn't have been their day of rest. However, I can give you a definitive verse that tells us what day to keep holy: the Sabbath. Ex. 20:8.
When Jesus gave us His 2 commandments they were new as in looking at the 10 in a different way, not abolishing the 10. The first commandment He gave follows the first 4 commands, how we are to worship God, and the second follows the last 6 in how we are to treat others.
Paul list the sins that are covered by God's law In Romans 1:29-32 " 29)Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30)Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32)Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." How would they know the things that were worthy of death without the laws of God telling them so? All of the teachings of Christ are based on the Laws of God. God commanded us to remember the 6th day as our day of rest, because by holding to the commandment it would have set His church apart instead we have let the Catholic Church tell us when to do it. See "Who Changed the Day of Worship ....." by Eddie Foster. A commandment of God is a Commandment of God.
Thank you Rainwalker. You are correct, that the same word, 'adokimos' is used in relation to 'reprobate or castaway'. And this word gives the definitions as 'failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit'. So we see a number of meanings that can be given, whether a test is given & one fails it, or to the other, of one being a counterfeit.
Thus if one feels that 1 Corinthians 9:27 might be Paul indicating that if he fails to keep his body (his flesh) under subjection, that when he preaches to others, then God would cast him away; could he then just be a failure, or incur God's disapproval, or even actually be a counterfeit Christian to be relegated to a destiny with other unbelievers?
Then do verses such as Romans 1:28, 2 Timothy 3:8, or Titus 1:16 apply also to Paul if he neglected to keep his body under subjection? And if Paul is deemed to be a castaway (i.e. having lost his salvation), does this then open the door to the Lord's failure to call & appoint His primary apostle to the Gentiles? But as we know, Paul didn't let the flesh or the Devil overcome him - he remained clear in conscience & faithful to his Lord; and this power, could it have come from within, i.e. the Holy Spirit in him, Who helps those endued with the Spirit, to not only do as Paul did, but also to be confident that He will indeed keep them from falling & be presented faultless before the Throne?
It's for such questions & verses in the NT, that confirm to my heart that God makes no mistakes in calling, redeeming, justifying & sealing His children. Readers of those passages will have to satisfy their own hearts & minds as to how to understand the different word usages for 'castaway or reprobate'.
Mark 1:15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
The apostle Paul knew what it was to follow after Jesus. Paul could not literally follow Jesus in the flesh as most churches are preaching in vain and teaching as if Jesus is still walking the face of the earth. The apostle Paul said this:
1st Cor 11:1] Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
This is not the only instance in the bible Paul said such a thing, there are other places.
1st Cor 4:16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Philippians 3:17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
1st Thess 1:[6] And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
Amen, Jesus never preached to follow after him, he preached to follow after his words and not his person as his words are spirit and life John 6:63. We follow after Jesus' words as Jesus is no longer around to be followed in person.
2nd Cor 5:16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The apostle Paul knew that he could not follow Jesus in person but had to follow after that voice from heaven that gave him words to preach. The apostle Paul never met Jesus in person, he did hear his voice and seen a light and that was it. The apostle Paul knew he had to follow after new directives from the Holy Ghost. We see many people trying to find Jesus or try to follow him and it is in vain as Jesus is not around to be followed, he has to be in you, and that is from his words by faith as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17.
Repent, and believe the Gospel of Christ's words Romans 1:16-17.
Thank you, this makes sense to a lot of the scriptures;
John 3:15 "That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting life."
John 11:25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that BELIEVETH in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Thank you again for your time and patience to respond to a question that seems obvious to the experienced Christians. I am nothing but a mere child in the faith and so my understanding is somewhat limited and have a little catching up to do. Thanks and may God bless you and peace to you in Jesus name
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
God has many warnings in scripture regarding not making idols of created beings or heavenly objects such as the moon and stars. This verse shows how God cannot be reduced to a man made concept or picture.
Colossians 1:15 states: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." This verse is discussing Christ who although He came in a man is part of the Godhead; so certainly we shouldn't have images of Him either; especially to be venerated or worshipped. As to whether; say a stained glass window is equally offensive we have to look to the heart of those who are attending a church service; as sadly some even with such an object as that will find some feature that seems to have some supernatural light in the image which is idolotry. The same could be said for the Apostles on such imagery; a Protestant wouldn't have any desire normally to make it an idol; but other denominations such as Greek Orthodox have statues of "saints" which clearly constitute worship that is against scripture.
John 1:18 states that no man has ever seen God but in Christ we in a sense see Him. His attributes including the Godhead are said to be clear from creation ( Romans 1:20). This was said to be known from the time of Creation according to the beginning of this verse. This shows that only later the nations departed from the knowledge that Adam and his immediate descendants would have instilled in them; there was deliberate rebellion against the Creator throughout the earth; both after the garden and after the flood with the tower of Babel and then God confusing the languages and scattering men throughout the earth (see Genesis 10:25 on likely splitting off of continents and dispersion of men).
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
God's attributes (D through G); Divinity; Essence; Father; God
These characteristics all are involved with the Trinity to some respect; but we will not attempt to "parse out" specific attributes related to any member of the Godhead in this posting but get into general characteristics here unique to the Lord. Divine has a sort of untouchable royalty associated with the sentiment behind the meaning; which of course sort of fits in with the "essense" generally of His precence. Father and God also are pretty well interchangeable as to our designation of the almighty Lord.
Divinity: God is high and exalted but not remote. Isaiah 57:15 states: "For this is what the high and exalted one says, the one who rules forever, whose name is holy: 'I dwell in an exalted and holy place, but also with the discouraged and humiliated, in order to cheer up the humiliated and to encourage the discouraged.' Philippians 2:7 shows how Christ emptied Himself from divine form and became a servant. Divinity is used in a handful of other verses as well; but we understand the condescension Christ did for our behalf as part of the "Divine counsel" ( Psalm 82:1).
Essence: To sum God up would bring unique characteristics (the three "O"s-omnipresence; omnipotence and omniscience which will be discussed later in the O section). God is to be worshipped in "Spirit and truth" ( John 4:24). He also came bodily and we must believe He came in the flesh ( 1 John 4:2) to have saving faith; thus we don't adhere to a "gnostic" gospel. His Godhead is important and apparently evident from creation (King James version Romans 1:20) which also BTW mentions His Divine nature.
He who denies the Son doesn't know the Father ( 1 John 2:23). Therefore we must hold to the Christian faith where there is the Messiah in Christ promised in the O.T.; as well as God the Father and the Spirit which lives within His elect ( Ephesians 1:13-14).
Father and God: God was Christ's Father and our heavenly father.
Yes, I gave a different view by asking a question. Sometimes, a question "tills the field" better than a statement because it gives the reader a chance to come to the conclusion on their own. You see, perspective is key to understanding, and it's perspective that allows us to "see" the another's eyes and understand! Now, concerning the serpent in The Garden; God said Do Not, and the serpent asked "why not"? The serpent did what "the flesh" (sarx) always does, tempt! I'm sure doubt is a part of this, yet I ask is God really ALMIGHTY? Because if He is, and He TRULY is, then "the fall" of man was always The Plan of God from The Beginning! I'll put it more clearly, the fall of mankind was Always supposed to happen. It is either, accept this truth, or believe that satan is at least as Powerful as God. How else did satan get into The Garden and have access to Adam & Eve? God allowed it.
Furthermore, it saddens me to think that you can't tell the difference between The Word Of God (The Holy Spirit), and the holy bible. You see the holy bible is holy, just, and good BUT it is a created thing and God is The Creator of the thing! We are Commanded to Worship The Creator NOT the created! Romans 1:20-25 It is for this transgression that our understanding is darkened. For The Word does and will Endure Forever, somehow I Understand that The Word is God and not a book made of paper and ink! Why else does God place His Law in our inward parts (heart) Jeremiah 31:33-34 Again, The True Gospel is NOT from a book, It is from The Holy Spirit of God.
I am with God sir, and where ever I am it is where God put me! What irks me the most is that I have to speak against a book not because of any ill will for I LOVE the holy bible, I speak against a book because people can't tell the difference from a book and God ALMIGHTY! God is Spirit and we are HIS tabernacles.
the words knowing the judgements of God, implies they have a knowledge of God
Whether they profess to be a Christian or not
the righteous judgements of the Holy, Holy, Holy God will find them out! Hebrews 4:12,13
& will reward them according to their deeds, if not confessed with a godly sorrow unto repentance & forsaken, which is a reward according to their deeds also.
Hello Rrscaccia. I think you have misread this portion. If I might write it as I understand this passage ( Romans 1:1-3):
"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he (i.e. God) had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) concerning his (i.e. God;s) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh..."
So Paul is stating that even as he Paul was called by the Lord to be Jesus' apostle, the Gospel which Paul had to preach was of Jesus Christ, God's Son Whom God had "promised afore by His prophets..."). So where are these promises? You can look at Deuteronomy 18:18; Isaiah 9:6,7; Isaiah 53:1-12; Isaiah 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5 (yet a future fulfillment): these prophets all spoke of Jesus (though they didn't know Him by that Name but that One would be sent from God), Who would come from Heaven through the Davidic line, being called the Son of God by His Divine Birth.
as for me, I will follow the commands of my Lord because He tells me to in His word. I believe him! it is the Holy spirit in me that causes me to desire to do God's will and having these commands show me the kind of character we ought to have because it is the character of Jesus whom we are to imitate, be a light to the nations, that others will see the good that we do and glorify God.
So, I have no problem at all in leaning on the Holy Spirit to help me have the mind of Christ, to do what He has said is the loving thing to do against what He said is not loving actions towards God or humans. From a very young age I have loved the commands of God because by knowing them, the Spirit reminds me of the command I am breaking when I am acting against loving Him and others. Being a believer all of my life, knowing what God says is righteous actions has helped to shape my character and approach to life.
I know that the law is good, but that we cannot meet its demands by along shot. I know that it is only Jesus who has done so perfectly. So I, and all believers, need to cast ourselves onto the mercy and grace of Jesus to receive righteousness before God now and on the day of final judgment. I know that the law was given to drive us to Jesus for salvation because we realize by the working of the Holy Spirit that we are sinful and in need of God's mighty work of salvation in Christ.
I don't know how it is for those who came to Christ as adults, but for me, having come to Him even before I could understand it all has blessed me. The earliest memory I have of the gospel and the character of God is when I was 6 and we talked about why God made me and what Jesus did for us. I know that I had been told this repeatedly by my parents and church prior to 6 years old, but that is as far back as I can remember. I believe what Paul wrote in Romans 1: that the preaching and hearing of the gospel is the power of God to save. ...cont.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Godhead is a word that is in 3 verses in the KJV. Acts 17:29Romans 1:20 and Colossians 2:9. Godhead comes from an Old English word godhede in 1200 AD. In Acts it is the Greek word theios that means divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature. In Romans, it is the Greek word theiots that means divinity, divine nature. In Colossians, it is the Greek word theots that mean deity, fulness of deity.
These are three different Greek words that the translators chose to translate Godhead. You ask is the Godhead one God or three persons? Some use this word to refer to the doctrine of the Trinity but in the context of the chapters this word is used, does not refer to that.
Godhead is God the Father himself, it pleased him to have all His divine fullness to dwell in His only begotten Son. The meaning for the word Godhead is the divine nature of God that was manifested in His only begotten Son, John 10:38John 14:10.
Your question is more about the doctrine of the Trinity I am sure others would reply on that.
The first part of the book is the doctrine of the Christian faith, which is Romans Chapter 1 Verse 18 through Chapter 11 Verse 36. The introduction is the first 17 verses.
And that introduction is divided into three parts:
Romans 1:1-7 - Paul's Position in Ministry
Romans 1:8-15 - Paul's Plan for Ministry
Romans 1:16-17 - Paul's Perception of Ministry.
Now believe it or not, embedded, and I emphasize the word embedded, but in these 17 verses are three important doctrines. They are the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of ministry, and the doctrine of the gospel. These are all found in these first 17 verses. In fact, every verse, even the introduction can be considered doctrine.
IX. THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. ( Romans 1:18-11:36)
In Romans Chapter 1 Verse 18 through to the end of Chapter 11 (there are 16 Chapters in Romans), but Chapter 1 Verse 18 through the end of Chapter 11 is the doctrinal section, specifically to present the doctrine of the Christian faith.
Indictment - The Doctrine of Condemnation ( Romans 1:18 - 3:20). The first part is indictment. It is the doctrine of condemnation. I'm sure we all love to study about that! "Come and let me show you how condemned you are!" Isn't that nice!
And that's divided up into three sections:
Romans 1:18-32 - The Prosecution Against the Gentiles
Romans 2:1-3:8 - The Prosecution Against the Jews
Romans 3:9-20 - The Prosecution Against all Mankind
The prosecution against the Gentiles. It is a fascinating study. You and I are Gentiles. Most Gentiles have not had exposure to the Old Testament or Judaism or Jewish ministry or teaching at all. We're kind of like the "Heinz 57" variety. We all come from different religious system backgrounds, and we are the Gentiles.
Romans 16:22 tells us that it was written by Tertius. He was the amanuensis, the one taking dictation from Paul. It was delivered by Phoebe. In Romans 16:1-2, it gives us her history. She was a deaconess in the church in Cenchrea which is the seaport of Corinth. So, she's going that way and Paul commends the believers there to receive her and help her to deliver this letter up to Rome.
VII. THE IMPORTANCE OF THE BOOK OF ROMANS:
Saint Augustine was converted while reading through the book of Romans. Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation based on Romans 1:17, "The just shall live by faith." It is just a simple sentence. I'll tell you now that we don't understand it! If we did, we wouldn't be conducting ourselves the way we do as far as our approach to the things of Christ. By faith means faith, trust, believe!
The book of Romans has been known down through history as "The Constitution of the Christian Faith." It is quite a book! When people are first saved, I recommend that they read the gospel of John, and read the gospels about the things of Christ. But as soon as possible, get into the book of Romans because it has every doctrine of the Christian faith contained in it.
The book of Romans was written to appeal to the Roman mindset. Now the frame of mind of the Romans, they thought according to the legal or justice system. That's why Mark's gospel that was written to the Romans is just a short presentation of what Matthew and Luke elaborate on. It's because the Roman mind just wants to know the facts.
That is the way God's word is. I am not talking about Pharisee legalism. It says what it says, and that's what it means. And the Roman mind, once you started elaborating and getting off into some other information, the Roman mind says "Hold it right there, just give me the facts!"
So, the gospel of Mark is written to the Roman mind and the book of Romans is written to the Roman mind. As a matter of fact, it is written just like a legal brief. The legal brief is that document that lawyers send to the court and send to the other opposing lawyers, laying out what their case is or their response to the case. The book of Romans is written like a legal document and it outlines the doctrine of the Christian faith. Very interesting! It is the same style as the gospel of Mark.
V. THEME:
The theme is Romans 1:17, "The just shall live by faith." The word just is the word righteous. Now Christians have heard this for years but the problems that we are experiencing in the body of Christ is strictly built on ignorance. Leadership as well as those coming to learn have not been founded and rooted in the book of Romans. The book of Romans is all of the doctrines of the Christian faith, factually stated and laid out. It is a fantastic book! Many of us have probably read through Romans several times but not really focus on it and make it the center point. We should be centered on it. We should all be educated in it.
Martin Luther said that every Christian ought to memorize it word for word. If you want to understand the rest of the bible, Martin Luther says you need to understand Romans.
Romans 1:16 -2:10 mentions 3 times "to the Jew first & then to the Gentile/Greek".! Reading them Im not understanding Gods purpose of placing It in that order. Is it because He knew they'd be harder to turn to Christ? And whats the signifacance of them remaining His 'chosen' ppl after they had Jesus crusified? it does make sense "if" when they Finally Realize who Jesus truly was/is, they will be so happy they found Gods truth they will be more faithful servents,.! Any other ideas or facts?
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
This verse; in a nutshell explains how; following man's expulsion from Eden that Adam's descendants-more or less willingly walked away from what they knew intellectually about God through the testimony of Adam and others who lived many hundreds of years into idol worship. This would result in the end of the antidiluvian world when Noah entered the ark; and would also signify the reason why God would use Israel to wipe out pagan nations once their "iniquity was at the full" (See Genesis 15:16 for earlier example). Israel was warned repeatedly not to follow the customs of the surrounding nations which often came through intermarriage or by obtaining cursed items. Sadly they hardened their hearts ( Jeremiah 32:35) to do the horrible act in Hinnom of sacrificing their children to Molech in the fire. God also judged Sodom; Gomorrah and the surrounding cities for the behaviors of men there of sodomy. Proverbs 14:34 states that righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.
This verse shows that there is a process involved when people drift off into sin; we all can see evidence of God in the Creation; even the Godhead as Romans 1:20 indicates (see also Psalm 19). Acts 8:23 shows someone in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity. This was Simon the Sorcerer; whose story began in verse 9. AFTER being baptized and claiming to be a believer he somehow thought he could buy the powers that the Apostles had of laying hands on people and having them receive the Holy Ghost. He was warned that he had no part in their ministry by Peter; and at the end of the story he asked them to pray for him.
It is hard to say exactly what Peter warned would happen to him or if he truly repented. We see; however a warning that it more than power in the gifts but the giver of gifts we worship.
FYI: The KJV in many places is a 'free translation'. the LXX [Septuagint] is an even more free translation of the Hebrew and yet the apostles quote the LXX is very many places in the NT. Additionally, Paul quotes a pagan poet in Acts 17:28.
The KJV is itself went through a number of revisions. The version currently published by the Trinitarian Bible Society contains [rightly or wrongly] words and phrases found in NO GREEK MANUSCRIPT.
My earlier question re the source of the words "of Christ" in Romans 1:16 is an example of this issue.
As far as I am able to ascertain NO Greek MS has those words. The earliest I have found is in the 1519 Greek and Latin New Testament of Erasmus. Those words, "of Christ" in Romans 1:16 may be one of Erasmus's 'conjectural emendations'.
I will continue to research that source.
Allow me to add that the translation philosophy employed by the translation committees of the KJV is probably THE BEST POSSIBLE, notwithstanding the occasional failures in applying that philosophy.
Greetings Scotty, Romans 1:16 is Paul announcing he is ready to proclaim what Jesus wanted Paul to relay to us.
At that time is "the transition" to include all us gentiles = of all nations was in play.
Romans = doctrine
As Paul progresses in order in his gospels with doctrine Reproof & correction mixed in..
Note: We are truly justified in Romans 3:24-26 equals Gods free gift!
(Please also note Ro. Chapters 9/10/11 where Paul is speaking to his brethren/ Israelites/ at that present time beseeching them & only them to perform Ro. 10:9 as we know praying is a work & how the Jews at that present time in their life THEY would be accepted by The Lord. Some of that (rightly dividing of course) is for both!
Scotty as you read God inserts into the reader his understanding bc God knows who is serious & who is not. God knows the beginning to the end and the end to the beginning!
Knowing that God is a God of order & the simplicity in Christ Jesus!
Jesus tells us to follow Apostle Paul & His "establishment commandment." Romans 16:26 Thus, we read daily starting in Romans & when we are done for that day take a tassel & mark that ( where we will begin to read the next day) & do our daily business
Later, we read again in Genesis & when done tassel that page. So, each day we continue this (and will read Ro to Rev.) many times more as we progress through the scriptures of the prophets
Then when we completed Acts, "Proclaiming God wins and the devil loses"! Restarting the same process again
That's Gods Establishment Commandment!
Also, Romans through Revelation guides us in what's going on these days. Example Romans 1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
You're right Scotty, that the TR is not a single manuscript but from many manuscripts, or texts of the Byzantine text-type. I did not go into this detail in my response to you, as I couldn't ascertain from your question whether you had a deeper knowledge of this or it was simply a passing question that arose when you compared Romans 1:16 with other translations. So my apologies. Yet, what you are seeking, although a commendable enquiry, I am unable to assist you because of the nature of the research; I'm certainly not proficient in this.
To be able to get into the letters or discourses of say, the early Church fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, etc.) could be a formidable task. I hope that you will, in time & diligence, be able to source the information you seek - and if you remember us here, maybe post your findings which should make very interesting reading. Blessings.
Now another Day arrived,the Lord's Day,seventh and last Day, seventh and last millennium,again Satan is also among the current sons of GOD( John 1:11-12),but strongly structured,more than in the time of Job,i.e. now he is with 7 heads,10 horns and a terrible TAIL- REVELATION 12:3-4-,it's a world religious MONSTER whose satanic system is established through a false Christianity in seven Continents-Europe,Asia,Africa,Oceania(Australia),North America, America Central and South America(7 regions of the Earth-7 heads of the dragon).His main partner is Catholicism ruled by the MAN Beast of sea,the current guide and leader/ruler of the Roman Catholic Church which rides upon the Beast, followed by Orthodox, and Anglicanism and Protestantism and their respective divisions called denominations and sects and movements gospel.Total adherents to Christianity are currently around 2.5 billion,but Scriptures warned:The Spirit speaks expressly,that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils;Speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Timothy 4:1-2combined with Romans 1:18-25.This is the devilish scenary of the 7 heads of the Devil,the red Dragon.
But there is also the religious esoteric,and kabbalistic,and spiritist Judaism, practiced in Israel,represented by ten tribes of the ancient Kingdom of Israel and its 10 Princes,one from each tribe.The MAN of sin,son of perdition,is from one of the 10 tribes,he should be of the tribe of Dan,and he is the little horn,the ileventh horn,which will manifest himself as Messiah,AN IMPOSTER- John 5:43-47 combined with Re.13:11,and will enthrone himself in Jerusalem. The next Pope to be elected in this current year, he will sit in the throne of the Messiah in Jerusalem-Re.13:2-first half of the last week,week 70th Dan.9:24-27
Get ready
Part 4 Trinity discussion.
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Jesus was obedient to the Father, Jesus said many times it is not His will but the will of the Father who sent Him, the same as we are to do, John 4:34 John 5:30 Mark 3:35.
Do you believe that a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
First, I will have to say it was the will of the Father, Jesus at the end even asked His father if there was another way but not Jesus's will but the will of His Father, Matthew 26:39 Luke 22:42. We are told this is the foundation of our faith, Jesus' sacrificial death. God cannot die God is Spirit He has no blood to shed for sin it had to be a man, His Son, born of a woman.
John 3:16 God gave His Son not Himself 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 1:7 Romans 5:8 2 Corinthians 5:21, God cannot be made sin, 1 Corinthians 15:17 Jesus died, and God raised Him from the dead, the first man to live a perfect life, the first fruits of those who sleep in death. 1 Corinthians 15:14 as said if Jesus was not a man who lived a perfect life and died and was raised from the dead all is vain.
The first Adam was the first man Jesus was the last Adam and the second man, 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. The law had to be fulfilled by a man.
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
As we see Luke 2:51-52 Jesus grew up increasing in wisdom and stature in favor with God and man. Jesus was twelve years old and He knew His father was God, but it doesn't say Jesus knew then He was to be the Messiah. God also said He would raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, Deuteronomy 18:15, Isaiah 11:1-5 Isaiah 61:1-2 confirmed in Luke 4:18-21. Romans 1:1-4 2 Timothy 2:8.
See part 5
Part 2 Trinity discussion
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 1 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 1:2 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1 Genesis 1:31 Proverbs 16:4 Isaiah 45:18 Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
See part 3.
The gospel is not good advice.
However, the gospel is much more than good news!!
The gospel is "the power of God UNTO salvation".
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16.
The gospel is power!
Good advice is not worth the snap of the fingers unless there is power to see it through.
There is three steps to our Salvation.
Justification.
Sanctification.
Glorification
Justification is "an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner's faith in Christ." We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.
Sanctification is "the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy." Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one's life. It is the same as growing in the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.
Glorification is "God's final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity"
As Christians, we were justified when we confessed Christ and believed ( Romans 10:9), we are sanctified as we grow in holiness through the work of the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:11-32; Galatians 5:16-24, and we will someday be glorified when we are resurrected into eternal life ( Colossians 3:4).
Justification is a one-time event, sanctification is a process, and glorification is a future event.
If you are a Christian, you are guaranteed all three steps.
THE GOSPEL IS "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION!
God bless.
2Co.5:10:We must ALL appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ;that every one receive the things done in his body,according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad. -GET READY-
Re.1:20-The seven stars are the angels of the seven Churches(ANGELS?OR DOGS?):and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven Churches.(What we can see by the letters sent to the Churches of Asia is that several angels of the Churches unfortunately failed.By the way,around 65 years after His ascension,at that time the CHURCH OF ROME had completely apostatized( ROMANS 1:21-28),it was no longer part of the body of Christ,reason by which my Lord JESUS directed messages only to the seven Churches in Asia,they were also greatly threatened by the growth of apostasy and idolatry,but my Lord JESUS was watching Satan's movement against His Church,against His body here on earth.The church of Rome would have been the eighth if it had not apostatized as a whole)
Is.56:10-11
10His watchmen are blind:they are all ignorant,they are all dumb DOGS,they cannot bark;sleeping,lying down,loving to slumber.
11Yea,they are greedy DOGS which can never have enough,and they are SHEPHERDS(PASTORS)that cannot understand:they all look to their own way,every one for his gain,from his quarter.
OTOH,the prophet(the preachers of the Word of GOD)that teacheth lies,he is the TAIL-Is.9:15-,yeah,the TAIL of the Red Dragon- Revelation 12:3-4)
1Pe.4:17-18
17The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD:and if it first begin at us,what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?(Compare with 1Corinthians 6:1-3 and Re.22:15)
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Celebration of the Lamb's marriage?ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT of BABYLON
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
Jesus gave us 2 "new" commandments, not new as in abolishing the old, but to look at the old in a new, more concise way. The first covers the first 4 commandments, how to worship God, and the second cover how to treat others with God's unconditional love. Jesus lived the 10 commands.
No scripture tells the church to start worshiping on the 1st day of the week. No verse tells the church that our rest in Jesus takes the place of the 4th commandment. The laws of sacrifice were replaced by the sacrifice of Christ's blood on the cross so were no longer necessary but the commandments where not, else how would man know how to l live righteously? Christ's salvation gives us the way to forgiveness of our sins but how dose man know what righteous is without the laws of God? After the sin of Adam and the world was cursed, mankind has had a difficult time following God's law, even after Jesus' paid the price for our because mankind still sins without the blood of Jesus washing them away. You seem to not have any regard for any of the commandments not just the 4th and yet they tell us plainly what sin is. How do we know if we don't have them? Again, I believe the bible shows us Jesus obeyed His Father's laws even the 4th. Jesus' teachings of righteousness were based on the 10 commandments. Show me where HE put these law's of His Father in such contempt? In Romans 1: 29-32 the verses give a list of the unrighteousness of men to the point of becoming reprobates. Study each one and you can see they are based on all 10 commandments. My prayers are with you.
When Jesus gave us His 2 commandments they were new as in looking at the 10 in a different way, not abolishing the 10. The first commandment He gave follows the first 4 commands, how we are to worship God, and the second follows the last 6 in how we are to treat others.
Paul list the sins that are covered by God's law In Romans 1:29-32 " 29)Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30)Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32)Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." How would they know the things that were worthy of death without the laws of God telling them so? All of the teachings of Christ are based on the Laws of God. God commanded us to remember the 6th day as our day of rest, because by holding to the commandment it would have set His church apart instead we have let the Catholic Church tell us when to do it. See "Who Changed the Day of Worship ....." by Eddie Foster. A commandment of God is a Commandment of God.
Thus if one feels that 1 Corinthians 9:27 might be Paul indicating that if he fails to keep his body (his flesh) under subjection, that when he preaches to others, then God would cast him away; could he then just be a failure, or incur God's disapproval, or even actually be a counterfeit Christian to be relegated to a destiny with other unbelievers?
Then do verses such as Romans 1:28, 2 Timothy 3:8, or Titus 1:16 apply also to Paul if he neglected to keep his body under subjection? And if Paul is deemed to be a castaway (i.e. having lost his salvation), does this then open the door to the Lord's failure to call & appoint His primary apostle to the Gentiles? But as we know, Paul didn't let the flesh or the Devil overcome him - he remained clear in conscience & faithful to his Lord; and this power, could it have come from within, i.e. the Holy Spirit in him, Who helps those endued with the Spirit, to not only do as Paul did, but also to be confident that He will indeed keep them from falling & be presented faultless before the Throne?
It's for such questions & verses in the NT, that confirm to my heart that God makes no mistakes in calling, redeeming, justifying & sealing His children. Readers of those passages will have to satisfy their own hearts & minds as to how to understand the different word usages for 'castaway or reprobate'.
The apostle Paul knew what it was to follow after Jesus. Paul could not literally follow Jesus in the flesh as most churches are preaching in vain and teaching as if Jesus is still walking the face of the earth. The apostle Paul said this:
1st Cor 11:1] Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
This is not the only instance in the bible Paul said such a thing, there are other places.
1st Cor 4:16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Philippians 3:17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
1st Thess 1:[6] And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
Amen, Jesus never preached to follow after him, he preached to follow after his words and not his person as his words are spirit and life John 6:63. We follow after Jesus' words as Jesus is no longer around to be followed in person.
2nd Cor 5:16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The apostle Paul knew that he could not follow Jesus in person but had to follow after that voice from heaven that gave him words to preach. The apostle Paul never met Jesus in person, he did hear his voice and seen a light and that was it. The apostle Paul knew he had to follow after new directives from the Holy Ghost. We see many people trying to find Jesus or try to follow him and it is in vain as Jesus is not around to be followed, he has to be in you, and that is from his words by faith as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17.
Repent, and believe the Gospel of Christ's words Romans 1:16-17.
John 3:15 "That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting life."
John 11:25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that BELIEVETH in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Thank you again for your time and patience to respond to a question that seems obvious to the experienced Christians. I am nothing but a mere child in the faith and so my understanding is somewhat limited and have a little catching up to do. Thanks and may God bless you and peace to you in Jesus name
Acts 17:29 states:
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
God has many warnings in scripture regarding not making idols of created beings or heavenly objects such as the moon and stars. This verse shows how God cannot be reduced to a man made concept or picture.
Colossians 1:15 states: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." This verse is discussing Christ who although He came in a man is part of the Godhead; so certainly we shouldn't have images of Him either; especially to be venerated or worshipped. As to whether; say a stained glass window is equally offensive we have to look to the heart of those who are attending a church service; as sadly some even with such an object as that will find some feature that seems to have some supernatural light in the image which is idolotry. The same could be said for the Apostles on such imagery; a Protestant wouldn't have any desire normally to make it an idol; but other denominations such as Greek Orthodox have statues of "saints" which clearly constitute worship that is against scripture.
John 1:18 states that no man has ever seen God but in Christ we in a sense see Him. His attributes including the Godhead are said to be clear from creation ( Romans 1:20). This was said to be known from the time of Creation according to the beginning of this verse. This shows that only later the nations departed from the knowledge that Adam and his immediate descendants would have instilled in them; there was deliberate rebellion against the Creator throughout the earth; both after the garden and after the flood with the tower of Babel and then God confusing the languages and scattering men throughout the earth (see Genesis 10:25 on likely splitting off of continents and dispersion of men).
Part three,
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28 Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
See part four.
These characteristics all are involved with the Trinity to some respect; but we will not attempt to "parse out" specific attributes related to any member of the Godhead in this posting but get into general characteristics here unique to the Lord. Divine has a sort of untouchable royalty associated with the sentiment behind the meaning; which of course sort of fits in with the "essense" generally of His precence. Father and God also are pretty well interchangeable as to our designation of the almighty Lord.
Divinity: God is high and exalted but not remote. Isaiah 57:15 states: "For this is what the high and exalted one says, the one who rules forever, whose name is holy: 'I dwell in an exalted and holy place, but also with the discouraged and humiliated, in order to cheer up the humiliated and to encourage the discouraged.' Philippians 2:7 shows how Christ emptied Himself from divine form and became a servant. Divinity is used in a handful of other verses as well; but we understand the condescension Christ did for our behalf as part of the "Divine counsel" ( Psalm 82:1).
Essence: To sum God up would bring unique characteristics (the three "O"s-omnipresence; omnipotence and omniscience which will be discussed later in the O section). God is to be worshipped in "Spirit and truth" ( John 4:24). He also came bodily and we must believe He came in the flesh ( 1 John 4:2) to have saving faith; thus we don't adhere to a "gnostic" gospel. His Godhead is important and apparently evident from creation (King James version Romans 1:20) which also BTW mentions His Divine nature.
He who denies the Son doesn't know the Father ( 1 John 2:23). Therefore we must hold to the Christian faith where there is the Messiah in Christ promised in the O.T.; as well as God the Father and the Spirit which lives within His elect ( Ephesians 1:13-14).
Father and God: God was Christ's Father and our heavenly father.
Yes, I gave a different view by asking a question. Sometimes, a question "tills the field" better than a statement because it gives the reader a chance to come to the conclusion on their own. You see, perspective is key to understanding, and it's perspective that allows us to "see" the another's eyes and understand! Now, concerning the serpent in The Garden; God said Do Not, and the serpent asked "why not"? The serpent did what "the flesh" (sarx) always does, tempt! I'm sure doubt is a part of this, yet I ask is God really ALMIGHTY? Because if He is, and He TRULY is, then "the fall" of man was always The Plan of God from The Beginning! I'll put it more clearly, the fall of mankind was Always supposed to happen. It is either, accept this truth, or believe that satan is at least as Powerful as God. How else did satan get into The Garden and have access to Adam & Eve? God allowed it.
Furthermore, it saddens me to think that you can't tell the difference between The Word Of God (The Holy Spirit), and the holy bible. You see the holy bible is holy, just, and good BUT it is a created thing and God is The Creator of the thing! We are Commanded to Worship The Creator NOT the created! Romans 1:20-25 It is for this transgression that our understanding is darkened. For The Word does and will Endure Forever, somehow I Understand that The Word is God and not a book made of paper and ink! Why else does God place His Law in our inward parts (heart) Jeremiah 31:33-34 Again, The True Gospel is NOT from a book, It is from The Holy Spirit of God.
I am with God sir, and where ever I am it is where God put me! What irks me the most is that I have to speak against a book not because of any ill will for I LOVE the holy bible, I speak against a book because people can't tell the difference from a book and God ALMIGHTY! God is Spirit and we are HIS tabernacles.
Romans 1:21-32
Romans 1:32
the words knowing the judgements of God, implies they have a knowledge of God
Whether they profess to be a Christian or not
the righteous judgements of the Holy, Holy, Holy God will find them out! Hebrews 4:12,13
& will reward them according to their deeds, if not confessed with a godly sorrow unto repentance & forsaken, which is a reward according to their deeds also.
"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he (i.e. God) had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) concerning his (i.e. God;s) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh..."
So Paul is stating that even as he Paul was called by the Lord to be Jesus' apostle, the Gospel which Paul had to preach was of Jesus Christ, God's Son Whom God had "promised afore by His prophets..."). So where are these promises? You can look at Deuteronomy 18:18; Isaiah 9:6,7; Isaiah 53:1-12; Isaiah 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5 (yet a future fulfillment): these prophets all spoke of Jesus (though they didn't know Him by that Name but that One would be sent from God), Who would come from Heaven through the Davidic line, being called the Son of God by His Divine Birth.
as for me, I will follow the commands of my Lord because He tells me to in His word. I believe him! it is the Holy spirit in me that causes me to desire to do God's will and having these commands show me the kind of character we ought to have because it is the character of Jesus whom we are to imitate, be a light to the nations, that others will see the good that we do and glorify God.
So, I have no problem at all in leaning on the Holy Spirit to help me have the mind of Christ, to do what He has said is the loving thing to do against what He said is not loving actions towards God or humans. From a very young age I have loved the commands of God because by knowing them, the Spirit reminds me of the command I am breaking when I am acting against loving Him and others. Being a believer all of my life, knowing what God says is righteous actions has helped to shape my character and approach to life.
I know that the law is good, but that we cannot meet its demands by along shot. I know that it is only Jesus who has done so perfectly. So I, and all believers, need to cast ourselves onto the mercy and grace of Jesus to receive righteousness before God now and on the day of final judgment. I know that the law was given to drive us to Jesus for salvation because we realize by the working of the Holy Spirit that we are sinful and in need of God's mighty work of salvation in Christ.
I don't know how it is for those who came to Christ as adults, but for me, having come to Him even before I could understand it all has blessed me. The earliest memory I have of the gospel and the character of God is when I was 6 and we talked about why God made me and what Jesus did for us. I know that I had been told this repeatedly by my parents and church prior to 6 years old, but that is as far back as I can remember. I believe what Paul wrote in Romans 1: that the preaching and hearing of the gospel is the power of God to save. ...cont.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Praise God for so great Salvation!
Godhead is a word that is in 3 verses in the KJV. Acts 17:29 Romans 1:20 and Colossians 2:9. Godhead comes from an Old English word godhede in 1200 AD. In Acts it is the Greek word theios that means divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature. In Romans, it is the Greek word theiots that means divinity, divine nature. In Colossians, it is the Greek word theots that mean deity, fulness of deity.
These are three different Greek words that the translators chose to translate Godhead. You ask is the Godhead one God or three persons? Some use this word to refer to the doctrine of the Trinity but in the context of the chapters this word is used, does not refer to that.
Godhead is God the Father himself, it pleased him to have all His divine fullness to dwell in His only begotten Son. The meaning for the word Godhead is the divine nature of God that was manifested in His only begotten Son, John 10:38 John 14:10.
Your question is more about the doctrine of the Trinity I am sure others would reply on that.
I hope this helps,
God bless,
RLW
VIII. SECTION OUTLINE OF THE BOOK OF ROMANS:
INTRODUCTION: ( Romans 1:1-17)
The first part of the book is the doctrine of the Christian faith, which is Romans Chapter 1 Verse 18 through Chapter 11 Verse 36. The introduction is the first 17 verses.
And that introduction is divided into three parts:
Romans 1:1-7 - Paul's Position in Ministry
Romans 1:8-15 - Paul's Plan for Ministry
Romans 1:16-17 - Paul's Perception of Ministry.
Now believe it or not, embedded, and I emphasize the word embedded, but in these 17 verses are three important doctrines. They are the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of ministry, and the doctrine of the gospel. These are all found in these first 17 verses. In fact, every verse, even the introduction can be considered doctrine.
IX. THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. ( Romans 1:18-11:36)
In Romans Chapter 1 Verse 18 through to the end of Chapter 11 (there are 16 Chapters in Romans), but Chapter 1 Verse 18 through the end of Chapter 11 is the doctrinal section, specifically to present the doctrine of the Christian faith.
Indictment - The Doctrine of Condemnation ( Romans 1:18 - 3:20). The first part is indictment. It is the doctrine of condemnation. I'm sure we all love to study about that! "Come and let me show you how condemned you are!" Isn't that nice!
And that's divided up into three sections:
Romans 1:18-32 - The Prosecution Against the Gentiles
Romans 2:1-3:8 - The Prosecution Against the Jews
Romans 3:9-20 - The Prosecution Against all Mankind
The prosecution against the Gentiles. It is a fascinating study. You and I are Gentiles. Most Gentiles have not had exposure to the Old Testament or Judaism or Jewish ministry or teaching at all. We're kind of like the "Heinz 57" variety. We all come from different religious system backgrounds, and we are the Gentiles.
VI. HOW WAS IT PREPARED:
Romans 16:22 tells us that it was written by Tertius. He was the amanuensis, the one taking dictation from Paul. It was delivered by Phoebe. In Romans 16:1-2, it gives us her history. She was a deaconess in the church in Cenchrea which is the seaport of Corinth. So, she's going that way and Paul commends the believers there to receive her and help her to deliver this letter up to Rome.
VII. THE IMPORTANCE OF THE BOOK OF ROMANS:
Saint Augustine was converted while reading through the book of Romans. Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation based on Romans 1:17, "The just shall live by faith." It is just a simple sentence. I'll tell you now that we don't understand it! If we did, we wouldn't be conducting ourselves the way we do as far as our approach to the things of Christ. By faith means faith, trust, believe!
The book of Romans has been known down through history as "The Constitution of the Christian Faith." It is quite a book! When people are first saved, I recommend that they read the gospel of John, and read the gospels about the things of Christ. But as soon as possible, get into the book of Romans because it has every doctrine of the Christian faith contained in it.
IV. HOW WAS IT WRITTEN:
The book of Romans was written to appeal to the Roman mindset. Now the frame of mind of the Romans, they thought according to the legal or justice system. That's why Mark's gospel that was written to the Romans is just a short presentation of what Matthew and Luke elaborate on. It's because the Roman mind just wants to know the facts.
That is the way God's word is. I am not talking about Pharisee legalism. It says what it says, and that's what it means. And the Roman mind, once you started elaborating and getting off into some other information, the Roman mind says "Hold it right there, just give me the facts!"
So, the gospel of Mark is written to the Roman mind and the book of Romans is written to the Roman mind. As a matter of fact, it is written just like a legal brief. The legal brief is that document that lawyers send to the court and send to the other opposing lawyers, laying out what their case is or their response to the case. The book of Romans is written like a legal document and it outlines the doctrine of the Christian faith. Very interesting! It is the same style as the gospel of Mark.
V. THEME:
The theme is Romans 1:17, "The just shall live by faith." The word just is the word righteous. Now Christians have heard this for years but the problems that we are experiencing in the body of Christ is strictly built on ignorance. Leadership as well as those coming to learn have not been founded and rooted in the book of Romans. The book of Romans is all of the doctrines of the Christian faith, factually stated and laid out. It is a fantastic book! Many of us have probably read through Romans several times but not really focus on it and make it the center point. We should be centered on it. We should all be educated in it.
Martin Luther said that every Christian ought to memorize it word for word. If you want to understand the rest of the bible, Martin Luther says you need to understand Romans.
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
This verse; in a nutshell explains how; following man's expulsion from Eden that Adam's descendants-more or less willingly walked away from what they knew intellectually about God through the testimony of Adam and others who lived many hundreds of years into idol worship. This would result in the end of the antidiluvian world when Noah entered the ark; and would also signify the reason why God would use Israel to wipe out pagan nations once their "iniquity was at the full" (See Genesis 15:16 for earlier example). Israel was warned repeatedly not to follow the customs of the surrounding nations which often came through intermarriage or by obtaining cursed items. Sadly they hardened their hearts ( Jeremiah 32:35) to do the horrible act in Hinnom of sacrificing their children to Molech in the fire. God also judged Sodom; Gomorrah and the surrounding cities for the behaviors of men there of sodomy. Proverbs 14:34 states that righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.
This verse shows that there is a process involved when people drift off into sin; we all can see evidence of God in the Creation; even the Godhead as Romans 1:20 indicates (see also Psalm 19). Acts 8:23 shows someone in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity. This was Simon the Sorcerer; whose story began in verse 9. AFTER being baptized and claiming to be a believer he somehow thought he could buy the powers that the Apostles had of laying hands on people and having them receive the Holy Ghost. He was warned that he had no part in their ministry by Peter; and at the end of the story he asked them to pray for him.
It is hard to say exactly what Peter warned would happen to him or if he truly repented. We see; however a warning that it more than power in the gifts but the giver of gifts we worship.
The KJV is itself went through a number of revisions. The version currently published by the Trinitarian Bible Society contains [rightly or wrongly] words and phrases found in NO GREEK MANUSCRIPT.
My earlier question re the source of the words "of Christ" in Romans 1:16 is an example of this issue.
As far as I am able to ascertain NO Greek MS has those words. The earliest I have found is in the 1519 Greek and Latin New Testament of Erasmus. Those words, "of Christ" in Romans 1:16 may be one of Erasmus's 'conjectural emendations'.
I will continue to research that source.
Allow me to add that the translation philosophy employed by the translation committees of the KJV is probably THE BEST POSSIBLE, notwithstanding the occasional failures in applying that philosophy.
NUNC VIVAMUS
At that time is "the transition" to include all us gentiles = of all nations was in play.
Romans = doctrine
As Paul progresses in order in his gospels with doctrine Reproof & correction mixed in..
Note: We are truly justified in Romans 3:24-26 equals Gods free gift!
(Please also note Ro. Chapters 9/10/11 where Paul is speaking to his brethren/ Israelites/ at that present time beseeching them & only them to perform Ro. 10:9 as we know praying is a work & how the Jews at that present time in their life THEY would be accepted by The Lord. Some of that (rightly dividing of course) is for both!
Scotty as you read God inserts into the reader his understanding bc God knows who is serious & who is not. God knows the beginning to the end and the end to the beginning!
Knowing that God is a God of order & the simplicity in Christ Jesus!
Jesus tells us to follow Apostle Paul & His "establishment commandment." Romans 16:26 Thus, we read daily starting in Romans & when we are done for that day take a tassel & mark that ( where we will begin to read the next day) & do our daily business
Later, we read again in Genesis & when done tassel that page. So, each day we continue this (and will read Ro to Rev.) many times more as we progress through the scriptures of the prophets
Then when we completed Acts, "Proclaiming God wins and the devil loses"! Restarting the same process again
That's Gods Establishment Commandment!
Also, Romans through Revelation guides us in what's going on these days. Example Romans 1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Thus read Ecclesiastes 1:9
To be able to get into the letters or discourses of say, the early Church fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, etc.) could be a formidable task. I hope that you will, in time & diligence, be able to source the information you seek - and if you remember us here, maybe post your findings which should make very interesting reading. Blessings.