Carlos, to your discussion beginning with, "if when you reference Rom 5:13-14".
Since I no longer have that particular thread before me (because of the locked discussion), I will respond just on your comments. With the Romans reference, I believe I said that that all (from Adam onwards) have suffered death (both physical & spiritual) as a result of sin, "even to those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression". What was the similarity to Adam's transgression? Those, like Adam, that didn't have the Law given to them, or was in their knowledge, that would have given judgement to their sin. Who are these people? Adam, primitive tribes, & to some extent, Gentiles, who do perform some of the laws because of governments who embrace those principals. Then I quoted, Rom 2:14,15, to show that to those who didn't have God's Laws/Standards, "did by nature the things contained in God's Law", & upon that basis they would be judged. So, I think I'm saying what you are, except in a different way.
When I refer to, & understand, the Law in this instance, I refer to it as those Laws of God as declared & given through Moses. If God told Adam not to eat the fruit, then it is a commandment, as a parent so commands his child. Adam was not bound under the Law (& it wasn't imputed to him), as it wasn't given to him to obey. Yet, he suffered, because sin was imputed because of disobedience, regardless whether the Law was given or not. Then why the need for the Mosaic Law? It was God's declared Standard for His people, distinguishing them (as also with circumcision), from any other people in the world. The others were a law unto themselves, doing by nature the things that are contained in the Law, & were/are so judged by the performance of those un-given Laws.
For by Him, or more literally, in Him. There's a prepositional word there that means in. In Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, and that's lordships, or principalities, or authorities:
So He's made everything, both visible and invisible. I look back to Ephesians 6:12 and I see that these listings of dominions, principalities, and powers are ranks of angels. Angels have military rank, both good angels and evil.
Paul says, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The word high places in the Greek means spirit realm. So it seems as though angels have rank.
But the emphasis here is that in Christ, all things were created, both visible and invisible. Things that are in heaven and things that are upon the earth, all the spiritual creatures, angels, were created in Him. All things were created by Him, and that's the word through. In Greek, it is DIA with the Genitive. All things were created through Him, and for Him: that's the preposition EIS, meaning unto Him, or for Him.
I'm just sharing what I see from that Verse, not looking for a long drawn out discussion, but just sharing my understanding. I am however curious to see how others see this verse.
To Carlos, our discussion page has now been locked, as you've probably noticed. So, I'll to post this afresh & hope you see it.
To your comment with the lead statement, "discussion leads to growth, edification, faith and maturity." I may have grown in my faith in a similar way to you. I had a lot of teaching when attending Church as an unsaved young person. After salvation in my mid-20s, I knew I had to undo everything, get into the Word properly & methodically, & find out what God is really saying. I realize that many have done much more study than me, but it remained in my heart that I needed to sit & listen to the Holy Spirit first & then hear man speak.
I too have never fitted into any denomination & it becomes interesting when having to explain why that is so. And I doubt, that any believer who is studying God's Word intently, would ever really agree on everything a denomination stands on & preaches. I think that type of variety is very appropriate, as we individually search the Scriptures & formulate our understanding based on the Light received. I have my own understanding of the Ordinances given to us, particularly in the performance of them; I reject the Health/Wealth teaching; the requirement for the proper biblical use of the Spiritual Gifts, & even to what we've been discussing at length: the proper understanding of the Creation account. As you can see, I've been prepared to sit with you on this one, as it too has exercised my understanding of the Scriptures in a way I didn't think was possible. However, my conviction is: 'if something is not clearly revealed in the Word, then just accept what is seen & understood'. By clear revelation, I mean, after a thorough examination of all Scripture over the matter. Yes, you could be right in your assumptions about Creation, but I just don't accept as fact something that is unclear in the Word & then have to entertain possibilities or probabilities for everything that follows after it.
Joshua on Colossians 1:15 brought up an interesting question. Who is Jesus? Is He God Devine or a created being God promoted to a higher position? There is a related Central theme in Scripture we often don't pay a lot of attention to. Even Preachers seem to skip over it when referencing it. But if you don't fully understand it, the rest of Scripture becomes difficult.
I am asking the following question for all who would like to respond, on Colossians 1:16,
"For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and FOR Him."
I have discussed this a little with others, but I would like to look at it on its own. From:
PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION
Book
Q: What does the word FOR mean? What does it mean that all things were created FOR Him?
we can learn a lot from Ruth, because any minute of the hour the norms-of-life can occur in my or your life as it did with Ruth, there is the drought economic failure having to relocate deaths older plus single all these and more can come upon me and you unexpectedly. Never-the-less if we are Rightly rooted in Jehovah GOD, especially through JESUS, we shall be able to endure.
Great question. I think of it this way: If my mom was born in Ghana and my Father was born in New York, but I was born in Nigeria..Am I not Nigerian To God be the glory
Ruth, women country of Moab: she is King David Grand mom, if so them down the line king David is also Jesus grandfather then Jesus was half Jew and Moab.
Naomi said to call her 'mara' because of the affliction she had to endure in Moab. She believed God had afflicted her and decided to return home to her people and away from the idolatry of Moab.
Very bitter person because of the loss of her two sons God had Afflicted her call me not Naomi anymore she says but call me Mara mean meaning bitter
Sometimes we go through a time of bitterness in our life and we think God has affected us but like the example of Joseph Joseph had a good attitude through it all in the end Joseph was the second ruler in the land of Egypt
Comment*story Of Ruth Is A Good example of our day to day life so she call us to demonstrate our faith in a positive way. Also she is enrolling our today life to patience, hardworking and innovate to our daily basic life style
Verse 15: Naomi urged Ruth to return with her sister-in-law because she was concerned about her welfare. Ruth was loyal to Naomi no matter what hardships she would have to face.
Ruth determination ended her a great family. She believed in God and shown much love for her in-law which later resulted her into that marriage of Boaz; hardworking, obedient, love, knowledgeable led to her great family
There is another 'back' story to "Ruth'. Had Elimelech stayed for 10 yrs. in Bethlehem, they would have been alright. But, God was moving the 'pieces' of Jesus birth into place. Everything that happens, God is there. God knows what each of us will do in a certain situation - and His will will be done. Nor can we say what God's plan 'b' would have been; with God - there is no 'plan B'. 'A' works!!
Ruth showed the agape love that we should have! Even in sorrow she kept the love and acted upon it. She loved Naomi and was willing to give her life to go with her.
Carlos, to your discussion beginning with, "if when you reference Rom 5:13-14".
Since I no longer have that particular thread before me (because of the locked discussion), I will respond just on your comments. With the Romans reference, I believe I said that that all (from Adam onwards) have suffered death (both physical & spiritual) as a result of sin, "even to those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression". What was the similarity to Adam's transgression? Those, like Adam, that didn't have the Law given to them, or was in their knowledge, that would have given judgement to their sin. Who are these people? Adam, primitive tribes, & to some extent, Gentiles, who do perform some of the laws because of governments who embrace those principals. Then I quoted, Rom 2:14,15, to show that to those who didn't have God's Laws/Standards, "did by nature the things contained in God's Law", & upon that basis they would be judged. So, I think I'm saying what you are, except in a different way.
When I refer to, & understand, the Law in this instance, I refer to it as those Laws of God as declared & given through Moses. If God told Adam not to eat the fruit, then it is a commandment, as a parent so commands his child. Adam was not bound under the Law (& it wasn't imputed to him), as it wasn't given to him to obey. Yet, he suffered, because sin was imputed because of disobedience, regardless whether the Law was given or not. Then why the need for the Mosaic Law? It was God's declared Standard for His people, distinguishing them (as also with circumcision), from any other people in the world. The others were a law unto themselves, doing by nature the things that are contained in the Law, & were/are so judged by the performance of those un-given Laws.
(onto Page 2)
What could Paul have meant by stating that all things were created "Unto" Him?
Romans 11:36 says essentially the same thing.
For by Him, or more literally, in Him. There's a prepositional word there that means in. In Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, and that's lordships, or principalities, or authorities:
So He's made everything, both visible and invisible. I look back to Ephesians 6:12 and I see that these listings of dominions, principalities, and powers are ranks of angels. Angels have military rank, both good angels and evil.
Paul says, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The word high places in the Greek means spirit realm. So it seems as though angels have rank.
But the emphasis here is that in Christ, all things were created, both visible and invisible. Things that are in heaven and things that are upon the earth, all the spiritual creatures, angels, were created in Him. All things were created by Him, and that's the word through. In Greek, it is DIA with the Genitive. All things were created through Him, and for Him: that's the preposition EIS, meaning unto Him, or for Him.
I'm just sharing what I see from that Verse, not looking for a long drawn out discussion, but just sharing my understanding. I am however curious to see how others see this verse.
To your comment with the lead statement, "discussion leads to growth, edification, faith and maturity." I may have grown in my faith in a similar way to you. I had a lot of teaching when attending Church as an unsaved young person. After salvation in my mid-20s, I knew I had to undo everything, get into the Word properly & methodically, & find out what God is really saying. I realize that many have done much more study than me, but it remained in my heart that I needed to sit & listen to the Holy Spirit first & then hear man speak.
I too have never fitted into any denomination & it becomes interesting when having to explain why that is so. And I doubt, that any believer who is studying God's Word intently, would ever really agree on everything a denomination stands on & preaches. I think that type of variety is very appropriate, as we individually search the Scriptures & formulate our understanding based on the Light received. I have my own understanding of the Ordinances given to us, particularly in the performance of them; I reject the Health/Wealth teaching; the requirement for the proper biblical use of the Spiritual Gifts, & even to what we've been discussing at length: the proper understanding of the Creation account. As you can see, I've been prepared to sit with you on this one, as it too has exercised my understanding of the Scriptures in a way I didn't think was possible. However, my conviction is: 'if something is not clearly revealed in the Word, then just accept what is seen & understood'. By clear revelation, I mean, after a thorough examination of all Scripture over the matter. Yes, you could be right in your assumptions about Creation, but I just don't accept as fact something that is unclear in the Word & then have to entertain possibilities or probabilities for everything that follows after it.
I am asking the following question for all who would like to respond, on Colossians 1:16,
"For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and FOR Him."
I have discussed this a little with others, but I would like to look at it on its own. From:
PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION
Book
Q: What does the word FOR mean? What does it mean that all things were created FOR Him?
We don't know if Orpha was married to Mahlon or Cilion. It is a mistake to suggest we do.
The bible does not explicitly say. 50% chance it is true, but the bible does not tell us.
Just like Shem, Ham & Japheth- it would be an error to think Shem is the oldest.
Sometimes we go through a time of bitterness in our life and we think God has affected us but like the example of Joseph Joseph had a good attitude through it all in the end Joseph was the second ruler in the land of Egypt