Romans Chapter 9 Discussion



 
  • James johnson on Romans 9
    explain romans 9:13 hate esau
  • T. Levis - in Reply on Romans 9
    Genesis 36:1, Hebrews 11:20, Hebrews 12:14-17,

    Important scriptures on why= Hebrews 12:16

    Obadiah 1:1-21,

    Obadiah 1:10,11,12,13,14

    Hopefully these are helpful in your discussion & understanding.
  • GiGi - in Reply on Romans 9
    Good responses, guys. I agree with so much of what has been said so far. I do think that this is said as a comparison between Jacob (chosen) and Esau (not chosen). It is meant to point out how God as been at work in human history to bring about His will and overall purpose. Think about the sons of Noah, Shem, Japheth, and Ham. One line was chosen (Shem) the others not chosen. Did God love Japheth and Ham less? No. Could they have a relationship with God? Yes..

    Look at Ishmael and Isaac. Did God love Ishmael less? No. Could Ishmael have a relationship with God? Yes.

    Then, look at Jacob and Esau. did God love Esau less? No. Could Esau have a relationship with God? Yes.

    Lastly, let's look at the Israelites and the Gentiles. Does God love the Gentiles less? No. Can Gentiles have a relationship with God? Yes. Throughout history God has chosen peoples, groups, and persons to fulfill a specific part of His redemptive plan in human history. Should the one who was chosen be prideful about this? No. They should feel the awesome weight of the particular call of God on them. Should the one not chosen be disappointed or rebellious towards God? No. the unchosen should give God the love and worship He deserves and believe He is ultimately just. Many people throughout history have been "unchosen" yet by their faith have received the promise of salvation. I think of Ruth, Rahab, Cornelius, the Samaritan woman, millions of Gentiles. God made Himself known throughout history through a chosen people, the lineage of Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. Those of us who do not have a bloodline in the Israelite lineage have been adopted into this chosen race by the blood of Jesus through faith. I am sure that there were very likely some of Esau's lineage that did believe and serve God in faith. Jesus' blood reaches back to them. He is the God of every one and saves all who seek Him in faith throughout history.
  • Chris - in Reply on Romans 9
    Hi James. I know, that word 'hate' can be very pointed & ugly, especially when seen in the Scriptures. We need to realize that 'hate' as seen here & other places, can have several meanings. The word in Greek is 'miseo', & of course, it does mean 'to hate' but also can have other meanings according to application, i.e. 'to detest, to love less, to esteem less'. So, it's not always an ugly uncontrolled emotion that is shown. You can think of Luke 14:26, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Did the Lord mean to say that we are to feel such hatred for our family just so that we can truly follow Him? Or did He mean that we need to esteem Him more, putting Him first in everything even to giving our family second place?

    And then we have another conundrum as seen in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." I share this verse simply to demonstrate the usage & understanding of languages. In Isaiah, we read of two strange phenomena: God creating darkness & creating evil. Can a God Who is altogether Light & altogether Holy & Good create such things? Some might say, yes, because He is God. Rather we should consider that in light of Who God is, maybe the creation of darkness, is actually God removing His Light. Maybe the creation of evil, is God removing His Peace. Darkness is always the default just as is Evil the present default in the World. We enjoy both physical & spiritual Light because of God's intervention through Christ ( Colossians 1:16,17; John 8:12) - we also enjoy great quietness & enjoyment of life because God by His Spirit is holding back the full onslaught of evil ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7).

    Therefore Romans 9:13 & Malachi 1:2,3 that speak of 'hating Esau', can only mean that Esau was hated (rejected) in God's Plan, just as Jacob was loved (accepted).
  • S Spencer - in Reply on Romans 9
    Hi James.

    I would like to suggest a possibility here concerning this text.

    The text reads 'As it is written " I would like to go to where this phrase was originally drawn from and get the context and tie the two together.

    Malachi 1:1-3. The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

    I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? WAS NOT ESAU JACOB'S BROTHER? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

    And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

    God is saying by my feelings and actions shown towards Esau, and he's jacobs brother "Suggesting equal grounds when Israel was Jacob" SHOULD be Proof I Love Jacob. IF THIS HATE WAS CAUSED BY SOMETHING ESAU DID THERE WOULD BE NO EVIDENCE ON DISPLAY HERE OF THE LOVE FOR JACOB.

    Atleast consider that for a moment and go back to Romans 9. and let's take it from verse 11 on down to verse 14.

    Romans 9:11-14. (FOR THE CHILDREN BEING NOT YET BORN, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL,

    ((( that the purpose of God according to election might stand, )not of works, but of him that calleth;)))!!

    It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    Here he Emphasizes THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH;)

    I believe the focus here is Jacob represents Gods Grace. Esau represents the will of the flesh " For lack of better terms "

    Perhaps Hate here is used as a term for Comparison as Brother Jesse shared in an earlier post.

    Just a suggestion, God bless.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply on Romans 9
    Brother S Spence, there is yet more to come concerning Jacob and Esau:

    Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac BLESSED Jacob and Esau concerning THINGS TO COME.

    The writer of Hebrews says those blessings are still in the future, they will come to pass after the resurrection to judgement and God's kingdom has been set up on earth.

    Jacob's blessing:

    Genesis 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: ......

    Esau's blessing:

    Genesis 27:40 ...and serve thy brother: and it shall COME TO PASS when THOU SHALL HAVE the dominion, that thou shall break HIS (Jacob's) yoke from off thy neck.

    Esau will come into God's kingdom after the resurrection to judgement, the kingdom of God is within you, and all Israel will be saved.

    You are right the children were chosen according to the election of GRACE, one a vessel of honour and one a vessel of dishonour, but in the fullness of time God will be all in all.
  • Rick - in Reply on Romans 9
    James When you look at the record in genesis 25:22 to chapter 28 concerning things that Esau did,

    the seat of his personal life had no believing or commitment. He sold his birthright out just for food he

    disobeyed his parents, he would have killed his brother. Rebeccah was walking and listening to God,

    she knew who the promise was to go to. Romans 9 is talking about the believing line by promise, Esau

    was crooked in his Heart and God knew it.
  • GiGi - in Reply on Romans 9
    Wondering if the commentary on the page for that Scripture explains anything about this? Maybe take a look. My suggestion.
  • George bvooker on Romans 9
    david said GOD saul is trying to kill me but i got my eye on you said GOD
  • RLF on Romans 9
    what is the importance of being baptized? Does this have to occur as an infant? I was a Catholic in my youth and was baptized, communion, and confirmation. Is baptism a necessity?



    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2: 8-9.
  • Carmen Renee Pollice on Romans 9
    What qualifies one to take communion?
  • Mishael - in Reply on Romans 9
    Be born again (John ch 3).

    Forgive everyone who has wronged you, or that you wronged.

    We're supposed to examine ourselves before we take communion. Participating in communion while living in unforgiveness heaps damnation on us.

    Gotta give all that stuff to Jesus and walk blameless before our Lord.
  • Thomas Moyd on Romans 9
    Who/What Restrains the antichrist
  • When the Holy Spirit is taken away - in Reply on Romans 9
    2 Thessalonians: 2: 7-11 KJV

    7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8. And then shall that Wicked (Antichrist) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Comment from Phillips Bible:

    I expect you remember now how I talked about this when I was with you. You will probably also remember how I used to talk about a "restraining power" which would operate until the time should come for the emergence of this man. Evil is already insidiously at work but its activities are restricted until what I have called the "restraining power" (of God) is removed. When that happens the lawless man will be plainly seen-though the truth of the Lord Jesus spells his doom, and the radiance of the coming of the Lord Jesus will be his utter destruction. The lawless man is produced by the spirit of evil and armed with all the force, wonders and signs that falsehood can devise. To those involved in this dying world he will come with evil's undiluted power to deceive, for they have refused to love the truth which could have saved them. God sends upon them, therefore, the full force of evil's delusion, so that they put their faith in an utter fraud and meet the inevitable judgment of all who have refused to believe the truth and who have made evil their play-fellow.

    Mishael comment. The Holy Spirit will still be here, but His power will be diminished. People left behind will call on Jesus to receive salvation; but they will die physically by refusing to take the Mark of the Beast.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on Romans 9
    Hi Thomas.

    I would like to second our brother Chris, It would take a powerful force to restraint the work of Satan,

    1 John 4:3-4. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU, THAN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD.

    We witness the same restrainer mentioned here in our lives, in our everyday walk in this world.

    I think it's not just Satan will turn up his activity, those left behind will be more receptive.

    Nolonger equipped with the armor as mentioned in Ephesians 6.
  • Chris - in Reply on Romans 9
    2 Thessalonians 2:6,7: "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

    The Apostle Paul had spoken about this matter to the Corinthians earlier (2:5), so they knew what Paul was referring to & had a fuller understanding of this narrative, but it has been kept hidden from us. As a result, there has been much conjecture as to who or what this 'restrainer' is.

    It has been suggested that it is some prominent individual (whether in the Church or in the World), but we know not of anyone who fulfils this position or holds such power to prevent the incarnate Devil from appearing.

    Another suggests that it is civil government with its administrations that bring cohesiveness through laws to unify a country in its diversity. That these would be eroded over time (as we even see now), where laws & permissions are given that are becoming increasingly anti-Christian, anti-biblical, when it would be easy for a civil authority to fall under the supreme control of a one-world dictator, lending them full support.

    And yet others see the Church in these verses: that the Holy Spirit is the One, Who by indwelling His people, remains as the great restrainer against the tide of evil. If the Spirit "is taken out of the way", so must the Church (the Body of believers) be removed, as it would be an impossible & unbiblical position to hold, that a believer could ever remain as such on the Earth without the indwelling Spirit. I tend to follow this belief as the most tenable but as always, open to other opinions which might shed more light.
  • Thomas Moyd on Romans 9
    what is divine election?
  • Chris - in Reply on Romans 9
    Without delving too deep in theology, Divine Election is essentially God choosing who are to belong to Him.

    We have the Old Testament references to God's choosing Israel: Isaiah 42:1; Isaiah 45:4; Isaiah 65:9; Matthew 24:22 (Matthew is still OT in this respect). Israel wasn't a nation at the time of God's choosing nor did its forefathers deserve anything for God choosing them, but that He wanted a "special people, to set His Love upon them, & to keep His Oath made to their forefathers" ( Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

    In the New Testament (post Cross), the Apostle Paul speaks of God's Elect as being from both Israel & the Gentiles: under "the election of Grace" (Romans chapter 11) and Colossians 3:12; 1 Peter 1:2.

    So we understand from Scripture, that God chooses whomever He desires to be His very Own. Yet, after the advent of Jesus Christ & His Sacrifice for all (Jew & Gentile), God's choosing is based on the Cross & yet the remnant of disbelieving Israel will still figure at the end times.

    Then maybe your question is in respect of how that Divine Election affects sinful mankind now: are some forever lost without hope, or are some dragged kicking & screaming into the Kingdom, none having any choice because of Divine Election? To answer this, God's choosing of those to be saved is entirely because of His Determination & His Plans. Since we know that God is an Omniscient God (He knows all things from eternity to eternity), His Plans must include those who come into the world, the life path they take, their hearing of the Gospel & their response to it.

    Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." "Ordained to eternal life". This is election, showing that God, Who had appointed some to eternal life, followed through with believing on His Son. In other words, whom God chooses will be saved - those who refuse His Son are not part of the elect or chosen of God.
  • Ron on Romans 9:21
    Right on Rickey! It is LOVE created by GOD that saves us!!

    John 3:16
  • Matthew M Maine Pastor of the Armory church on Romans 9:21
    In this new year put self on the shelf and be the feel of honour . Romans 9:21 Galatians2:20-21 2Corinthians 5:17 - 18 and one will have a blessed year.
  • Alex on Romans 9
    My comments about Romans 9 v 7 & 8 Kjv. Natural Israel are not the absolute Children of God as they have to be bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the words of God,Jesus told nic. a jew he had to be bornagain in order to enter the kINGDOM. Its the children of Promise that are counted for that good seed which is the H.G. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit Jesus said meaning the H.G. The Child of PROMISE,The baptism of the H.G. and FIRE A HEAVENLY PEOPLE THAT ARE THE VERY SPIRT OF GOD THE children of PROMISE that are gonna be born in us sinners, our new innerman, our new heart and new spirit which is the very kingdom of God in humanity via his seed th word. Not all Israel is Israel its the heavenly seed the word that initiates the Israel of God,As we have borne the image of the earthy ( OUR OLD ADAMIC nature ) We must also bear BIRTH the image of the heavenly the very image of God. To whom the word came ( his seed ) it made them Gods and the scriptures cannot be broken. God is spirit and Jesus says that which is born of the spirit is spirit thus the H.G is the PROMISE Child, the multiplication of God. Everytime God refers to himself as the FATHER IMPLIES HE IS GONNA HAVE SONS,ABSOLUTE SONS LIKE Jesus was an absolute Son, not a TOKEN SON LIKE ADAM 1. Thats y God made that Promise he wants a posterity, Jesus was just his 1st born of many Brethren thus the sower and his precious seed the words of God that are spirits, The Israel of God are spirits the H.G PLURAL that is gona be born in humanity. I will multiply thy seed as the Stars of Heaven, Thus Christ is gona be a father simply b/c of his seed,They don't call him the bridegroom for nothin,He wants to propagate VERY GOD in humanity with his seed THE WORD ,The book contains the words of everlasting life the Good seeds,The new COVENANT Jesus words thus he is the Author of that book,He wrote it with his own blood. In the volume of the BOOK it is written of me i delight to do thy will O GOD. The kingdom .
  • Fred Scanlan - in Reply on Romans 9
    Alex you make an outstanding point."Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" We have religious leaders in America that Israel identifies with. It amazes me that church leaders identify with an Israel that still does not except Jesus as the Messiah. Let alone the son of God! Even Christianity!There is a movement to go to a monotheistic God. Teaching that God can exist without the Christ, therefore without the h.g.. You cannot be born again without excepting the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. If baptism were not necessary, Christ would have not done it. There is an unspoken evil doctrine, if you worship the Father , you don't need the Son. This doctrine comes strait from hell itself. This in essence, deletes the new testament in His blood! The new covenant is become the promise of a savior who has not yet come. Last days many shall be deceived! This new doctrine is designed to bring peace! A belief that as long as I believe in a god I will be excepted before God. It doesn't matter who god is, as long as I'm good I will be excepted by God!
  • Alex - in Reply on Romans 9
    I was thinking about Gal. 3 v 16 KJV Now unto Abraham and his seed were the PROMISES made but he said NOT unto seeds plural,NATURAL ISRAEL But unto 1 seed which is Christ thus its Christ that is gonna be multiplied as the stars of heaven Thats y Jesus refers to the H.G as the PROMISE meaning the multiplication of God thats y God swore by his very self,when he cd sware by no greater he swore by himself,Its God that is gonna be multiplied via the WORD that good seed,Thats y Jesus is saying to whom the word came it made them GODS WHICH IS THE MULTIPLICATION OF GOD. And its impossible for GOD TO LIE. HEBREWS 6 It was God Almighty that made that Promise. Ya gotta realize that Christ sows a much greater seed then Abraham,God found fault with natural Israel simply b/c they all carried the stain and spot of Adam,David comes to mind. But David speaks of another king coming, Solomon which means comforter a fore runner of the heavenly Comforter the H.G. A GREATER then Solomon is here.All alone God had a another Israel in mind that wd come via tHE seed of CHRIST WHICH IS THE ISRAEL OF GOD,All thru the bible we read of a heavenly Jacob a heavenly Israel,that the sun nor the moon or any heat will lite on them simply b/c they are spirits the H.G .THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT THATS THE H.G THE ISRAEL OF GOD that is gonna be born in US VIA HIS SEED.Thats y God told MOSES that his name was Abraham Issac and Jacob IMPLING THERE IS GONA BE AN ISRAEL OF GOD VIA HIS SEED TH WORD ETC.And Abraham implies multiplication MEANING THE FATHER HIMSELF IS GONNA BE MULTIPLIED AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN, TO WHOM THE WORD ( the seed of Christ )CAME IT MADE THEM GODS. ok lemme go .Dont forget that Abraham Issac and Jacob were father son and granson which implies multiplication a posterity, natural Israel but think of that in the spiritual realm via a heavenly seed initiating an Israel of God. The great PROMISE .A lil one shall become a 1000 and a small one a strong nation th Israel of God.
  • Alex - in Reply on Romans 9
    BILL TRY TO UNDERSTAND Its the seed of Christ which is the living word that is the Israel of God, which are spirits the H.G. PLURAL,God made this Promise to Jesus that his seed wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven. Abraham, Isaac and jacob were just a profile of the heavenly kingdom, Thats what abraham means exaulted Father.Its God almighty that wants a posterity.How can anybody miss this Abraham offered up his only son Issac and the result of this act of obedience was multiplication of his seed wd be as sands of the seas But Christ actually died,Gods only son was offered up to death thus that PROMISE that Christ wd be multiplied as the Stars of heaven, Thus our new birth via his seed the word That new covenant,we birth a new innerman which is the H.G. Whom Jesus refers to as the PROMISE.THUS MULTIPLICATION OF Christ will be as the stars of heaven.This cannot be refuted as God Almighty made this PROMISE of multiplication via the seed of CHRIST. Jesus even tells the Greeks that came to Jerusalem to see Jesus that unless a seed died it abides alone but if it died it will bring forth much fruit meaning multiplication, Everybody will get a seed a measure of faith to birth a baby Christ,Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me. thats how the whole world will see Jesus via his seed that will initiates a birth of Christ in US. Smite the shephard and the sheep and the sheep will be scattered THEN I WILL TURN MY HAND TO THE LITTLE ONES,tHE BABES AND SUCKLINGS THAT ARE GONNA BE BORN IN US tHE H.G. THE CHILD OF PROMISE.Smite the shephard implies his death and resurrection,when a seed dies it multiplies, thus the children that are gonna be born in US via his seed. Thus we see multiplication via his death and resurrection. But Christ will not sire flesh and blood children his offspring are spirits as God is spirit, To whom the WORD came it made them Gods and the scriptures cannot be broken,Jesus regenerates himself via his seed, his breath, HIS WORD GBU BILL
  • Sandra Ditch on Romans 9
    Today noticed when reading Romans 9 that there is many differences in this King James Bible that was typed in your website and also the Authorized King James Bible. A King James Bible by American Bible Society that I often read has many verses that are not capitalized and many of the names are spelled differently. I do hope the meaning in each verse does not change in meaning with the change of spelling and change of a word being capitalized in the beginning of a verse.
  • Rachat on Romans 9:6
    That't right. Just as not all Christians are Christians, not all Israelite's are Israelite's.
  • Shar on Romans 9:15
    What is the meaning of John chapter 7 verse 38
  • Bendito Palavra - in Reply on Romans 9
    Regarding John 7:38: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

    The question is answered in the next verse. John 7:39: "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    The illustration is of the Holy Ghost like a fountain of water gushing up from within the believer, giving all that pertains to the life more abundant, to testify to the glory of Jesus Christ.

    In Genesis 16, the angel of the LORD found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness which she then called Beerlahairoi (well of the Living One seeing me).

    Later in Genesis 26:19 Isaac's servants digged in the valley, and found there a well of springing water (also called living water as opposed to a well that needed to be drawn from by hand).

    In Exodus 17, the LORD told Moses to smite the rock so that water would flow out to quench the thirst of the complaining Israelites. This is a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ.

    The LORD had a controversy with his people in Jeremiah 2:13, "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water."
  • Joyce on Romans 9:15
    Romans 9:15 says God will show mercy on whom he chooses and compassion on whom he chooses. To me this means the same as He has predestined who will accept Him. How do we know if we're ones who He will allow to be saved, shown mercy & compassion?
  • Wenmar - in Reply on Romans 9:15
    Joyce, If you believe....you have been chosen. John 3:16 will confirm that. It says "Whosoever"! Hallelujah!

    This verse in Romans does give me a glimmer of hope regarding some of my family/friends whom I do not know if I will be reunited with them in Paradise. Only God knows....and He may do as He wishes.


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