Hi Alex, so I see where you are coming from, but, Bionically speaking you appear to be painting half the picture. I am already aware of the wheat and the tares. The purpose of this parable is not to prove OSAS. As a matter of fact, this is a final judgement parable and the fact that children of God and children of satan are going to be together, among one another, until Christ's 2nd coming. However, when I look at this parable in conjunction to all the other parables of scripture, and the teachings of the epistles, I think the Bible differs from what you are saying.
Biblical salvation is not a 1x event & we have to look at the warning passages & understand that the promise of eternal life is conditional. For example, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15: 1-2 "Moreover, brethren (fellow believers), I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Notice that salvation is conditional on our continued faith in Christ.
Col. 1: 22-23 "to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard". Again, notice the condition for salvation.
We also see the promise of eternal life is conditional on continued faith, which doesn't make it a "work" or "keeping myself saved". Christ is still doing the saving, even though we must remain steadfast in the faith.
1 Peter 1:5 is clear that we are kept by God through faith. God is doing the keeping, it is still His gift. However, it is OUR faith (continued present tense in the Greek).
The point of the wheat & tares is that there are going to be Christians and non-believe together until Christ's coming. Only those who remain steadfast, grounded & endure to the end will inherit the gift of eternal life (ref. 1 Jn. 2:24-25 & Rom. 6: 22)
Marke, you stated "It is also impossible for a Christian who is saved because he yielded to the witness of the Holy Ghost to come to Jesus for salvation to then refuse to do that after he has already done it. Christians get saved once, not over and over again." Can you please reference the Bible verse that says it's impossible for a Christian to refuse salvation once they have done so? And can you reference the Bible verse that says one doesn't get saved over and over again.
How about the parable of the prodigal son? He was at home with the father, but, of his free will went out on his own and ended up lost. He came back again and we forgiven. He was dead and was made "alive again". Some may say this is a reference to the initial "born again" experience ( John 3). However, this is different because the prodigal son was already with the father before becoming an "apostate".
How about Rom. 11: 23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." This is in regard to the state of grace the gentiles were in and their need to remain in Christ or be cut off. Likewise, anyone who comes back to Christ can be graffed in AGAIN. This was a clear admonition to the Gentile converts to remain in the body of Christ or ultimately be lost.
There are so many warnings in the NT alone to think that it is impossible for one to walk away from Christ, renounce their faith, and still go to Heaven. And there is no proof in the Bible that everyone who renounces their faith was "never really saved". Some, yes. However, that doesn't negate the warnings to the true believer to remain in Christ or be cut off from eternal life. The Bible teaches salvation is a walk with Christ, not a 1 time event.
If one who renounce Christ is "never really saved", then how can anyone know if they are really saved, since we can't predict the future. We can have assurance of salvation and still take the warnings to remain on guard serious.
Marke, I see where you are coming from on point 4 and I've studied this topic in depth. However, when reading this with the parable of the 10 virgins it make a lot more sense. In that parable from Matthew 25: 1-13, there were 10 virgins with oil in their lamps. The oil represents the Holy Spirit, in which they are the "light" of the world. The virgins represent the church (ref. 2 Cor. 11:2). Now, 5 were foolish and let their oil be quenched (ref. 1 Thes. 5:19). Now, when the 10 got to door and were greeted by the groom (representing Christ on the day of judgement) he told the 5 foolish virgins he "never knew them". That seems odd that he would not know them just because they let the oil burn out. They didn't guard their oil and tend to it, and they ended up in the darkness of night (hell).
We know from Eph. 1: 13 that we are sealed w/ the Holy Spirit when we believed on Christ, but, even seals can be broken. We also see in Eph. 1:14 that the Holy Spirit is our earnest, but, that is not a guarantee. If we could never have our names blotted out of the Book of Life and forfeit the Holy Spirit by not remaining faithful to Christ then why would Christ even tell his followers of the parable of the 10 virgins?
You also said that nowhere in the Bible does Christ say that he once knew someone and then didn't. For that, I go to Rev. 3:16, in which Christ spits out the lukewarm Christian. This is not a depiction of someone who was "never in Christ to begin with" but someone who was in Christ and is spit out.
Also Rev. 3: 21 "To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." To overcome means to endure to the end ( Matthew 24:13)
Paul speaks under inspiration of the Holy Spirit tell Christians in Rom. 6: 16 that only those who obey Christ will inherit eternal life. This is not a unconditional.
Also ref. 2 Peter 1: 10-11 regarding eternal life. It's conditional, not unconditional.
Marke, regarding 1 Cor. 9: 24-27 you said "Paul likens the Christian life after salvation to that of running a race. He is talking about receiving rewards and commendations at the judgment seat of Christ. He is not talking about running to finally obtain long-sought-after salvation offered in Christ but never vouched by Christ until the race is audited by Christ, in the end, to see if the race was run well enough" However, I disagree with your interpretation of this and will explain.
In v. 25, Paul states "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." You think this has to do with rewards (plural). However, this is singular. We compare this to James 1:12 "Blessed is the man that ENDURETH temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life (eternal life), which the Lord hath promised to them that love him (conditional promise!)." and Rev. 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou FAITHFUL unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life (eternal life)."
In both James and Revelation there's enduring and overcoming. There are conditions to God's promise of eternal life.
As for "cast away", I fail to see the connection between being a cast away and receiving/losing heavenly rewards. Cast away means being cast our from Christ and His Kingdom. Continuing to 1 Cor. 10: 11-12 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he FALL." Fall from what? Salvation! Also, in 1. Cor. 10:4 Paul says they drank of the spiritual rock, which was Christ. Yet, they were cut off and destroyed for not doing God's will. And we know idolators and fornicators won't inherit eternal life.
Regarding Heb. 4:3, this paints half the picture. Looking at Heb. 3: 12-19 through Heb. 4: 11 you'll see that while all who believed do enter into Christ's rest, it's a journey. I've seen a lot of posts in this thread saying that Christians "will endure to the end" or if they live in disobedience they are still eternally secure. If that is the case, Why does Heb. 5:9 say Christ is the author of eternal life for those who obey him? Why are Christian told to continue in well doing for eternal life? Why are there so many if/then warnings. If/then warning constitute conditions.
Regarding Mt. 13:35, I'm not sure what this has to do with unconditional eternal security. Christ's perfect sacrifice was known Him since the foundation of the world. Yet, each individual believer must repent, turn to Christ, & remain grounded/steadfast if they are going to receive the end of their faith, eternal life ( Rom. 6:22).
Regarding Jn 15:16, Christ is omniscient. From the foundation of the world he knew who his 12 apostles would be and who would betray him. Yet, each individual believer must come to Christ and abide in him for the hope of eternal life. 1 Jn 2:24-25 makes this clear.
You also said "Man is a vessel, he has no say IN THE WORKS OF GOD." If this is the case, why doesn't God just save everyone? After all, it's the will of the Father that all be saved. I agree salvation is of God. It's HIS grace & gift to give. Yet, we must receive this gift (that's something we do) & must endure in saving faith for eternal life. And Faith is faith. Remaining faithful doesn't somehow make it "work". Calling it a work is somewhat of a straw man argument.
Regarding Phi. 2:13, this is a primary function of the Holy Spirit, but, we can resist, grieve and quench it. Notice v. 16 "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." Paul would labour in vain if his converts didn't endure to the end for eternal life.
I've seen your posts before and agreed with many other of your views and felt they were grounded in Biblical truth. So, this is one area we have a difference in how we interpret the scriptures. To me it's 100% clear what the Bible says, and to you I'm sure you're 100% confident also. But our views are very different and are consequential as we're basically discussing the main aspect of Christianity.
So, let me only address just 1 of your points you wrote: "All born-again believers bring forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit."
Ok, I can see you took that idea from scripture which is great, but I just don't believe your interpretation as I see you're conflating sin with fruit to the point where you are possibly denying a Christian's ability to sin, is that correct?
Paul was a Christian and spoke about his struggles with fleshly desires and temptation to sin. Romans 7:13-25. So, he was a Christian who bore good fruit, yet still talked about his struggle with sin. He had to fight against it. He talked about having on the armor of God and being prepared for spiritual battles: Ephesians 6:10-18. He didn't say, we'll I'm "saved" and my fruit is good so I can do whatever I want. Quite the opposite.
1 John 2:4-6 - this indicates that we Christians continue to have a choice on whether to keep commandments or not. I'm sure you know that Paul's letters were to Christians.
Let me make a clear point. I'm a Christian and read the Bible daily and try to follow Jesus to the best of my ability, but I am imperfect and have temptations to sin just like any other human being. Sin can be fun by nature and I think most people admit to that. If you're so sure that it's impossible for a Christian to sin or do wrong or that we somehow don't have the freewill to, and is impossible to do wrong or to not follow Jesus, does that mean tonight I can choose to go out on the town and commit all kinds of sin that my flesh desires and you think I'll have no consequence?
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul likens the Christian life after salvation to that of running a race. He is talking about receiving rewards and commendations at the judgment seat of Christ. He is not talking about running to finally obtain long-sought-after salvation offered in Christ but never vouched by Christ until the race is audited by Christ, in the end, to see if the race was run well enough.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believe do enter into his rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although THE WORKS were FINISHED from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 13:35 That it might be FULFILLED (the works finished before the foundation of the world) which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth IN PARABLES; I will utter things that have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of the Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU (from the foundation of the world) .....
Man is a vessel, he has no say IN THE WORKS OF GOD.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD that WORKETH IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Man is FULFILLING the WORDS and WORKS FINISHED before the foundation of the world.
If you were CHOSEN from the foundation, you will be a FIRST FRUIT
If you were not CHOSEN to be a FIRST FRUIT, you will be brought into the kingdom at the feast if the Ingathering.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Things I see:
1. All born-again believers bring forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit.
2. All unregenerate sinners bring forth evil fruit and cannot bring forth good fruit.
3. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian. Those who show evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit give evidence they are saved, while those showing evidence of a corrupt spirit without the Holy Spirit give evidence they are not saved.
4. In the judgment many lost sinners will point to their good works as evidence they were saved but they still have no evidence of having been born again by the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus rejects their good works and condemns them to the lake of fire, stating emphatically that He never knew them. He says to none of them that He once knew them before they turned back away from Him and lost their salvation.
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I see that Peter is addressing Christians only. I also see that those Christians have already been begotten again unto a lively hope. I also see that those Christians are kept by the power of God, not by their own power. I see that those Christians were elect and chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world and that their inheritance is reserved in heaven and shall never fade away.
Peter is encouraging Christians to keep themselves unspotted from the world so that when they are given their new bodies in the end and stand before Jesus at His judgment seat they will not be ashamed for any unrepentant disobedience.
Jesus does not condemn Christians to the lake of fire from the Judgment seat of Christ. Lost sinners are condemned to the lake of fire from the Great White Throne Judgment of God.
You correctly point out in Matt 12:32 that "the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Jesus also said in Mark 3:28 that all other sins "shall be forgiven."
All sinners shall be forgiven all sins except for the sin of willfully and knowingly rejecting the witness of the Holy Ghost pointing the sinner to Jesus for salvation. It is impossible for a lost sinner to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost before the Holy Ghost speaks to that sinner pointing him to his need to come to Jesus for salvation. It is also impossible for a Christian who is saved because he yielded to the witness of the Holy Ghost to come to Jesus for salvation to then refuse to do that after he has already done it. Christians get saved once, not over and over again.
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
In the LAST TIME. It doesn't salvation is given on Earth.
1 Cor 9:24-27 "run the race", not the 'race was already won.'
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
HOPE to the END. It doesn't say NOW. Grace that IS TO BE brought. It doesn't say NOW.
Joshua 24:15 "choose you this day whom ye will serve"
CHOOSE. It's a daily decision. Freewill is not stripped away.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Not all believers are saved and not all who claim to be followers.
Matthew 12:32 "...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN. I read this and know what it says.
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
Believing alone isn't enough according to this verse.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
This is a warning, it is clear, and I understand it. I don't want to test God.
James 2:14-26 "...faith, if it hath not works, is dead..."
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Jude 1:21 "KEEP YOURSELVES IN THE LOVE OF GOD, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."
These verses are the Words of God.
I read, pray for understanding, and know in my heart what these verses say and mean. If another believer says "No, that's not the truth, believe ME instead" then that is a huge red flag of something that doesn't come from God. God bless.
Marke, I am very confused by what you are saying. You are implying that one remaining faithful to Christ is somehow comparable to being late to work? You're saying murderers & adulterers can still be assured of salvation? This is free grace heresy.
Galatians 6: 7-9 "7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE EVERLASTING. 9 And let US not be weary in well doing: for in due season WE shall reap, IF WE faint not." It's safe to say Paul was saved & writing to fellow believers. Notice how he says "we". If eternal security was unconditional I just wonder why he said we reap "life everlasting", including himself, if it can't be lost.
And, is murder and adultery sewing to the flesh or the spirit? The flesh! So, you just said we are still secure in salvation if we murder or commit adultery. Yet, the Bible says only those who sew to the spirit and don't quit will inherit eternal life. I just find this logic completely un-biblical and foreign to the church before the reformation.
Just because God's word teaches we must remain faithful to Christ doesn't make us "Legalists". That's a cop-out from the OSAS crowd who don't want to acknowledge we play a role in our relationship w/ Christ. Let's also not mistake "faith" and "works". You can try to twist faith to be a "work" but faith will always be faith. If remaining faithful to Christ is somehow a "work" then one could logically say that one's initial profession of faith is also a "work". Because, after all, to the OSAS crowd they appear to be more focused on their own one time profession than the relationship w/ Christ. Scripture always talking of us "walking" with Christ, and receiving the end of our faith, eternal life ( 1 Jn 2: 24-25; Rom. 6:22). Biblically speaking, only those who endure to the end in faith will inherit eternal life.
In addition to my post I just added, I wanted to clarify on what you said when you said "rue Christians are not in danger of losing their salvation because of sin but false religionists are still in sin and will never be saved if they fail to seek the Lord for forgiveness. Lost sinners do not 'lose their salvation' because they never had salvation to begin with"
You are only painting half a picture. Yes, there are many out there who won;t genuinely have the Godl'y sorrow that Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians that leads to true repentance, but, many will. As such, even when we are filled with God's Spirit we MUST remain on guard. If not, then everything Jesus warned about in His Earthly ministry was a lie. Since God does not lie, we have to take Jesus at His word. And, just to set the record straight, while Jesus' ministry on Earth was to "save the house of Israel" ALL of his teaching were for all people, including gentiles who would convert. If one is going to quote John 3:16 then they also need to quote all of Jesus' warning, including remaining steadfast.
So, you only painted half a picture. The other half, which paints a full picture, is that even us who are saved MUST endure in faith. This is very clearly spoken of by Paul, Peter, Jude and James in the NT. 2 Peter 2: 14 says "Wherefore, beloved (true believers), seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, WITHOUT SPOT, AND BLAMELESS." Compare what to Col. 1: 22-23 "yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you (true believer) holy and UNBLAMEABLE and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". Jude says Christ is able to "keep us from falling and present us faultless, but, also says we need to keep ourselves in the love of Christ!
Failure to remain in Christ only leads to hell. No exceptions!!
Hiya Erich...I hear ya...But ya gotta realiize we are 2 ppl...The wheat and the tares make us 2 ppl...the tares are satans Children...But the wheat is Christ child his seed etc...Its the tares that are made white at repentence,..Satan wants to deceive us..Its the tares that answer to the DOG that returns to his vomit and the sow that returns to his mud...The 2 men in 1 bed is just 1 man that has given birth to the wheat and the tares by satans seed...Its Satans seed the tares that Fallaway but the wheat cannnot fall away Simply b/c the wheat is the H.G that Child of Promise...Jesus said to let them grow together till the harvest...these 2 the wheat and the tares result in a warfare...But being our God is a consuming fire the tares are gonna be burned up...1 is gonna be taken and 1 is gona be left...The 2 men in one bed...But this proves OSAS...The wheat cannot fallaway simply b/c the wheat is the H.G Born in us via the seed of Christ..Which is God...A BABY CHRIST ...Jesus said my Father that gave them me is greater then ALL and no man is able to pluck them outta of my Fathers Hands...So OSAS IS TRUE
...The reason i say that the wheat is a baby Christ is simply b/c the Sower of the good seed is the Bridegroom...Thats y he has to know us ..thats when that good seed is sown in our hearts initiating a birth of Christ in us..The Son of man...Which is mankinds fruit unto God
....Thus the only one who is gonna be lost is our old adamic nature that is in rank with satan...As our God is a consuming fire that is gonna consume mans adamic nature..Satan...I think that is y we need to read Mal. 3 : 2...Who shall abide the day of his coming, Who shall stand when he appears...For he shall be as a REFINERS FIRE AND FULLERS SOAP....As our God is a consuming fire which is baptism of the H.G and fire...Which is what we need....But his judgement is also his love...We chastise our children simply b/c we love them...Right...And nothin can escape the love of God..
True Christians are not in danger of losing their salvation because of sin but false religionists are still in sin and will never be saved if they fail to seek the Lord for forgiveness. Lost sinners do not 'lose their salvation' because they never had salvation to begin with.
If Christians must maintain good works after they are saved then their salvation becomes a matter of their own efforts and good works, which is impossible. What sin is so bad that a Christian could lose his salvation and election over, adultery? Theft? Lying? Murder? Being late to work?
Hi ELB, I appreciate the follow up. However, the warnings of God in the OT, whether it is prophecy or not, need to be taken seriously at all times. God is unchanging and consistent. His holy character and nature did not just change from OT to NT. While we stand on our faith in Christ and His atoning blood, we stand on our faith. To renounce Christ as a follower and assume we are still "saved" is a complete mockery of the suffering he endured for sinners. He saved us from sin, not in spite of sin. and, we have a free will to continue with him, or not. However, according to 1 John 2: 24-25 if we don't continue in the Son we will not continue in the Father, and will not inherit eternal life.
Again, I just ask why Paul wrote in Romans 2 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by patient CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:" if we are unconditionally secure. Don;t get me wrong, I love the idea of unconditional eternal security, but, it just don't line up with scripture in it's proper context.
Hi Marke, thanks for the follow up. John 3:9 is not a OSAS verse. The one who is walking with Christ "can't sin" because they are covered by the blood of Christ. However, you can't ignore 1 John 1:7 "But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Only by walking with Christ will his blood cleanse us. This is not a guarentee that a Christian can't be moved away from the hope of Eternal Life, as stressed by Paul in Romans 2 and Galations 6. In addition to that, 1 Jn 2:24-25 lays out the condition for eternal life, which is abiding and continuing in the Son. We ware warned to remain in Christ. If we were eternally secure all these verses would read "the one who is in Christ will remain in Christ", but, it doesn't. There is the if/then condition, which is clearly salvation related.
Take the parable of the 10 virgins. All 10 started with the oil in their lamps, which oil represents the Hoyl Spirit. 5 were foolish and not on tending to their oil lamps. They let it burn out and were rejected at the door by the bride-groom, representing Christ on the last day. Even though he said "depart from me, I never knew you" doesn't mean they never had the oil! They just let their oil run out. Christ, Paul, James, John, Peter, and all the writers of the OT all echoed the same thing. One who starts their journey with God MUST stay the course. If they don't then they won't go to heaven.
A Christian becomes a new creature when born-again. There are certain sins that Christians are no longer capable of committing, such as denying the Lord that bought them.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
ELB- You can't define disobedience? Negotiating what disobedience is can be very dangerous because it opens the door to willful sin and the assumption one's saved by a previous profession, as opposed to a walk with Christ. It's anything that goes contrary to God. We are told by Christ that HIS commands are to believe on Him and love one another. All god's commandments hinge on love. Christ is clear and unwavering that we MUST follow His commands, end of story. To say we love and follow Him, but, have hatred in our hearts is a demonstration that we walk in darkness. Let's look at 1 Jn 1:7 "But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin". Notice that? ONLY by walking in the light will Christs ATONING blood cleanse us. We are not guaranteed "past, present & future" sins forgiven. Only past sins IF we walk in the way of Christ. Again, HE is the judge, not us. Paul is also clear in Heb. 5: 9 that Christ is the author of eternal life for all those who OBEY Him. Obeying is actually following Christ, not just systematically believing in facts about Him & assuming we have "free grace" and can never be "plucked" out of the hand of God.
Let's look at the OT, and please don't try and say that this was a different "dispensation" or that this has nothing to do with eternal life. This is salvation-based and demonstrates how God is never changing from Genesis through Revelation.
Ezk. 18: 20-21 "The SOUL that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will TURN FROM ALL HIS SINS that he hath committed, and KEEP all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Also, please explain Gal. 6: 7-9 & Rom. 2: 6-8 if OSAS is true.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD that WORKETH in you TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Most DON'T BELIEVE these WORD'S of God.
Do you believe that everything being done, IN YOU and BY YOU, is God's will and is God's work.
Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of my anger, and the staff in their hand is my indignation.
Isaiah 10:6 And I WILL send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath WILL I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and tread them down like the mire in the streets.
Isaiah 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed HIS WHOLE WORK upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I WILL punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isaiah 10:13 For he saith, by the strength of MY HAND I HAVE DONE IT .......
God didn't punish the king for stealing, raping the women, dashing the children against the streets, and killing men:
He punished him because he thought HE DID IT instead of UNDERSTANDING it was THE WORK'S of GOD through his hand.
TRUTH:
We are the vessel; Christ is the LIFE, TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Not believing these words causes us to walk in disobedience.
The sins of the flesh are covered by the blood of Christ; NOT BELIEVING his WORDS keeps us from being ONE.
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY (man) and ONE SPIRIT (Life and Truth).
So let me ask you a simple question is Once saved always saved; yes or no ?
If yes ; just Get saved and God will do the rest , no need to do any thing , a common response . No fear or concerns .
If no : then be careful how you live , it could be fatal . Yes with faith and Gods help we can do it , common response , its worth it considering the option.
This must be the biggest question of all time in my Opinion . My belief is Only the Bible has the truth , and it must convince any one , or they just my get deceived . Jesus said Beware lest any man deceive you . Our eternity is at stake .
Unfortunately, you have an incorrect view on this. Salvation is conditional on one's continued walk with Christ, like it or not. To say that one can wilfully walk away from Christ and live Disobedience to God will go to heaven is a direct violation of Hebrews 5:9 where we are told that Christ is the author of eternal life for all those who obey him. Also, your response is in direct conflict with Romans 2:9 where Paul says only those who continue walking with Christ will have eternal life. Notice the condition there. This is also in direct line with 1st John 2: 24-25. John clearly says that only those who abide and remain in Christ will receive the promise of eternal life. There is no guarantee there, unless one remains s in Christ. Again, I ask you to show me the Bible verse that states specifically that one will remain in Christ automatically if they are saved. The early church did not teach once saved always saved and specifically highlighted that if one walks away from priced and does not return to Christ will end up in hell. Justin Martyr, for example, addresses this and specifically highlights True Believers that walk away from Christ. The promise of eternal life has conditions and doesn't make it any less of a promise. There is always an if/then connection when it comes to Salvation. Again, you can't show me a Bible verse that so shows True Believers are automatically saved. Everything is based on our continued faith. If what you're saying is true, and it's not, then who can ever really know that they are a True Believer? And, if you are saying that one can be disobedient and end up in heaven makes God a liar and an accessory to sin.
Thank you for your response. It is much appreciated. Just as I was saying in my other posts, it is nice to get feedback from others. However, I must say that the Bible is very clear in it's warning to all believers about falling away. There is no such thing in the Bible that says true believers will never fall away. If that was the case the Bible would be clear about that. However, the Bible is clear, like it or not, that salvation is conditional on our continued faith and walk with Christ. It is very easy for one to say "true believers" will never fall away. However, the only believers in the Bible are "true" believers that the writers are writing to. This idea that once someone is saved they are just automatically always saved, even if they live in disobedience, conflicts with the Word of God that says in Heb. 5:9 that Christ is the author of eternal life for those who obey him. Now, you mention physical death for those who are disobedient, but, James 5:19-20 mentions the spiritual death from "brethren" who err from the truth. Brethren are believers. So, as you can see Christians are not just automatically saved. Paul even knew this and address this many times over. Lastly, don't misrepresent 1 Cor. 11:30 as all encompassing. While there are some who were disobedient and it led to sickness and death, that does not account for those who willfully walk away from Christ. Those are 2 different things. The problem with those who believe in OSAS is that they always need to slightly twist verses out of context to fit their agenda, whereas I just let the Bible speak for itself in it's proper context. Whether you like it or not, the Bible is clear that salvation is conditional on our continued faith in Christ. No endurance to the end, no salvation.
Please reference the Bible verse that says saved Christians cannot walk away from Christ and be lost. The Bible does not say that true Christians cannot be lost. The Bible was written by true Christians to true Christians and warned true Christians not to fall away. This idea that "true" Christians are immune to sin is complete nonsense and a dangerous doctrine. The KJV Bible is extremely clear in what it says. God is consistent from Genesis to Revelation and those who do not remain faithful to God will end up in hell. That is the only truth, like it or not.
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
It is likely that Christian churches down through the centuries have always had more false believers than true. The Bible is written to the Church to the saved and lost together, and God never encourages believers to take comfort in their salvation and ignore their responsibility to go on with God. Those believers who do not pay attention to God's word and never get saved will end up falling away into hell.
True believers have a responsibility to walk with God in fear and trembling, seeking always to please Him and obey His word. A true believer who walks in disobedience cannot be lost again, but he can become less profitable and may be taken out of the world early because of that.
Biblical salvation is not a 1x event & we have to look at the warning passages & understand that the promise of eternal life is conditional. For example, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15: 1-2 "Moreover, brethren (fellow believers), I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Notice that salvation is conditional on our continued faith in Christ.
Col. 1: 22-23 "to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard". Again, notice the condition for salvation.
We also see the promise of eternal life is conditional on continued faith, which doesn't make it a "work" or "keeping myself saved". Christ is still doing the saving, even though we must remain steadfast in the faith.
1 Peter 1:5 is clear that we are kept by God through faith. God is doing the keeping, it is still His gift. However, it is OUR faith (continued present tense in the Greek).
The point of the wheat & tares is that there are going to be Christians and non-believe together until Christ's coming. Only those who remain steadfast, grounded & endure to the end will inherit the gift of eternal life (ref. 1 Jn. 2:24-25 & Rom. 6: 22)
How about the parable of the prodigal son? He was at home with the father, but, of his free will went out on his own and ended up lost. He came back again and we forgiven. He was dead and was made "alive again". Some may say this is a reference to the initial "born again" experience ( John 3). However, this is different because the prodigal son was already with the father before becoming an "apostate".
How about Rom. 11: 23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." This is in regard to the state of grace the gentiles were in and their need to remain in Christ or be cut off. Likewise, anyone who comes back to Christ can be graffed in AGAIN. This was a clear admonition to the Gentile converts to remain in the body of Christ or ultimately be lost.
There are so many warnings in the NT alone to think that it is impossible for one to walk away from Christ, renounce their faith, and still go to Heaven. And there is no proof in the Bible that everyone who renounces their faith was "never really saved". Some, yes. However, that doesn't negate the warnings to the true believer to remain in Christ or be cut off from eternal life. The Bible teaches salvation is a walk with Christ, not a 1 time event.
If one who renounce Christ is "never really saved", then how can anyone know if they are really saved, since we can't predict the future. We can have assurance of salvation and still take the warnings to remain on guard serious.
We know from Eph. 1: 13 that we are sealed w/ the Holy Spirit when we believed on Christ, but, even seals can be broken. We also see in Eph. 1:14 that the Holy Spirit is our earnest, but, that is not a guarantee. If we could never have our names blotted out of the Book of Life and forfeit the Holy Spirit by not remaining faithful to Christ then why would Christ even tell his followers of the parable of the 10 virgins?
You also said that nowhere in the Bible does Christ say that he once knew someone and then didn't. For that, I go to Rev. 3:16, in which Christ spits out the lukewarm Christian. This is not a depiction of someone who was "never in Christ to begin with" but someone who was in Christ and is spit out.
Also Rev. 3: 21 "To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." To overcome means to endure to the end ( Matthew 24:13)
Paul speaks under inspiration of the Holy Spirit tell Christians in Rom. 6: 16 that only those who obey Christ will inherit eternal life. This is not a unconditional.
Also ref. 2 Peter 1: 10-11 regarding eternal life. It's conditional, not unconditional.
In v. 25, Paul states "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." You think this has to do with rewards (plural). However, this is singular. We compare this to James 1:12 "Blessed is the man that ENDURETH temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life (eternal life), which the Lord hath promised to them that love him (conditional promise!)." and Rev. 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou FAITHFUL unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life (eternal life)."
In both James and Revelation there's enduring and overcoming. There are conditions to God's promise of eternal life.
As for "cast away", I fail to see the connection between being a cast away and receiving/losing heavenly rewards. Cast away means being cast our from Christ and His Kingdom. Continuing to 1 Cor. 10: 11-12 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he FALL." Fall from what? Salvation! Also, in 1. Cor. 10:4 Paul says they drank of the spiritual rock, which was Christ. Yet, they were cut off and destroyed for not doing God's will. And we know idolators and fornicators won't inherit eternal life.
Regarding Mt. 13:35, I'm not sure what this has to do with unconditional eternal security. Christ's perfect sacrifice was known Him since the foundation of the world. Yet, each individual believer must repent, turn to Christ, & remain grounded/steadfast if they are going to receive the end of their faith, eternal life ( Rom. 6:22).
Regarding Jn 15:16, Christ is omniscient. From the foundation of the world he knew who his 12 apostles would be and who would betray him. Yet, each individual believer must come to Christ and abide in him for the hope of eternal life. 1 Jn 2:24-25 makes this clear.
You also said "Man is a vessel, he has no say IN THE WORKS OF GOD." If this is the case, why doesn't God just save everyone? After all, it's the will of the Father that all be saved. I agree salvation is of God. It's HIS grace & gift to give. Yet, we must receive this gift (that's something we do) & must endure in saving faith for eternal life. And Faith is faith. Remaining faithful doesn't somehow make it "work". Calling it a work is somewhat of a straw man argument.
Regarding Phi. 2:13, this is a primary function of the Holy Spirit, but, we can resist, grieve and quench it. Notice v. 16 "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." Paul would labour in vain if his converts didn't endure to the end for eternal life.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
I've seen your posts before and agreed with many other of your views and felt they were grounded in Biblical truth. So, this is one area we have a difference in how we interpret the scriptures. To me it's 100% clear what the Bible says, and to you I'm sure you're 100% confident also. But our views are very different and are consequential as we're basically discussing the main aspect of Christianity.
So, let me only address just 1 of your points you wrote: "All born-again believers bring forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit."
Ok, I can see you took that idea from scripture which is great, but I just don't believe your interpretation as I see you're conflating sin with fruit to the point where you are possibly denying a Christian's ability to sin, is that correct?
Paul was a Christian and spoke about his struggles with fleshly desires and temptation to sin. Romans 7:13-25. So, he was a Christian who bore good fruit, yet still talked about his struggle with sin. He had to fight against it. He talked about having on the armor of God and being prepared for spiritual battles: Ephesians 6:10-18. He didn't say, we'll I'm "saved" and my fruit is good so I can do whatever I want. Quite the opposite.
1 John 2:4-6 - this indicates that we Christians continue to have a choice on whether to keep commandments or not. I'm sure you know that Paul's letters were to Christians.
Let me make a clear point. I'm a Christian and read the Bible daily and try to follow Jesus to the best of my ability, but I am imperfect and have temptations to sin just like any other human being. Sin can be fun by nature and I think most people admit to that. If you're so sure that it's impossible for a Christian to sin or do wrong or that we somehow don't have the freewill to, and is impossible to do wrong or to not follow Jesus, does that mean tonight I can choose to go out on the town and commit all kinds of sin that my flesh desires and you think I'll have no consequence?
You quote from 1 Corinthians 9.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul likens the Christian life after salvation to that of running a race. He is talking about receiving rewards and commendations at the judgment seat of Christ. He is not talking about running to finally obtain long-sought-after salvation offered in Christ but never vouched by Christ until the race is audited by Christ, in the end, to see if the race was run well enough.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believe do enter into his rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although THE WORKS were FINISHED from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 13:35 That it might be FULFILLED (the works finished before the foundation of the world) which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth IN PARABLES; I will utter things that have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of the Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU (from the foundation of the world) .....
Man is a vessel, he has no say IN THE WORKS OF GOD.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD that WORKETH IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Man is FULFILLING the WORDS and WORKS FINISHED before the foundation of the world.
If you were CHOSEN from the foundation, you will be a FIRST FRUIT
If you were not CHOSEN to be a FIRST FRUIT, you will be brought into the kingdom at the feast if the Ingathering.
God Bless You!
You quote Matthew 7.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Things I see:
1. All born-again believers bring forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit.
2. All unregenerate sinners bring forth evil fruit and cannot bring forth good fruit.
3. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian. Those who show evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit give evidence they are saved, while those showing evidence of a corrupt spirit without the Holy Spirit give evidence they are not saved.
4. In the judgment many lost sinners will point to their good works as evidence they were saved but they still have no evidence of having been born again by the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus rejects their good works and condemns them to the lake of fire, stating emphatically that He never knew them. He says to none of them that He once knew them before they turned back away from Him and lost their salvation.
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I see that Peter is addressing Christians only. I also see that those Christians have already been begotten again unto a lively hope. I also see that those Christians are kept by the power of God, not by their own power. I see that those Christians were elect and chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world and that their inheritance is reserved in heaven and shall never fade away.
Peter is encouraging Christians to keep themselves unspotted from the world so that when they are given their new bodies in the end and stand before Jesus at His judgment seat they will not be ashamed for any unrepentant disobedience.
Jesus does not condemn Christians to the lake of fire from the Judgment seat of Christ. Lost sinners are condemned to the lake of fire from the Great White Throne Judgment of God.
You correctly point out in Matt 12:32 that "the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Jesus also said in Mark 3:28 that all other sins "shall be forgiven."
All sinners shall be forgiven all sins except for the sin of willfully and knowingly rejecting the witness of the Holy Ghost pointing the sinner to Jesus for salvation. It is impossible for a lost sinner to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost before the Holy Ghost speaks to that sinner pointing him to his need to come to Jesus for salvation. It is also impossible for a Christian who is saved because he yielded to the witness of the Holy Ghost to come to Jesus for salvation to then refuse to do that after he has already done it. Christians get saved once, not over and over again.
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
ALL. All means all.
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
In the LAST TIME. It doesn't salvation is given on Earth.
1 Cor 9:24-27 "run the race", not the 'race was already won.'
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
HOPE to the END. It doesn't say NOW. Grace that IS TO BE brought. It doesn't say NOW.
Joshua 24:15 "choose you this day whom ye will serve"
CHOOSE. It's a daily decision. Freewill is not stripped away.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Not all believers are saved and not all who claim to be followers.
Matthew 12:32 "...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN. I read this and know what it says.
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
Believing alone isn't enough according to this verse.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
This is a warning, it is clear, and I understand it. I don't want to test God.
James 2:14-26 "...faith, if it hath not works, is dead..."
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Jude 1:21 "KEEP YOURSELVES IN THE LOVE OF GOD, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."
These verses are the Words of God.
I read, pray for understanding, and know in my heart what these verses say and mean. If another believer says "No, that's not the truth, believe ME instead" then that is a huge red flag of something that doesn't come from God. God bless.
Galatians 6: 7-9 "7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE EVERLASTING. 9 And let US not be weary in well doing: for in due season WE shall reap, IF WE faint not." It's safe to say Paul was saved & writing to fellow believers. Notice how he says "we". If eternal security was unconditional I just wonder why he said we reap "life everlasting", including himself, if it can't be lost.
And, is murder and adultery sewing to the flesh or the spirit? The flesh! So, you just said we are still secure in salvation if we murder or commit adultery. Yet, the Bible says only those who sew to the spirit and don't quit will inherit eternal life. I just find this logic completely un-biblical and foreign to the church before the reformation.
Just because God's word teaches we must remain faithful to Christ doesn't make us "Legalists". That's a cop-out from the OSAS crowd who don't want to acknowledge we play a role in our relationship w/ Christ. Let's also not mistake "faith" and "works". You can try to twist faith to be a "work" but faith will always be faith. If remaining faithful to Christ is somehow a "work" then one could logically say that one's initial profession of faith is also a "work". Because, after all, to the OSAS crowd they appear to be more focused on their own one time profession than the relationship w/ Christ. Scripture always talking of us "walking" with Christ, and receiving the end of our faith, eternal life ( 1 Jn 2: 24-25; Rom. 6:22). Biblically speaking, only those who endure to the end in faith will inherit eternal life.
You are only painting half a picture. Yes, there are many out there who won;t genuinely have the Godl'y sorrow that Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians that leads to true repentance, but, many will. As such, even when we are filled with God's Spirit we MUST remain on guard. If not, then everything Jesus warned about in His Earthly ministry was a lie. Since God does not lie, we have to take Jesus at His word. And, just to set the record straight, while Jesus' ministry on Earth was to "save the house of Israel" ALL of his teaching were for all people, including gentiles who would convert. If one is going to quote John 3:16 then they also need to quote all of Jesus' warning, including remaining steadfast.
So, you only painted half a picture. The other half, which paints a full picture, is that even us who are saved MUST endure in faith. This is very clearly spoken of by Paul, Peter, Jude and James in the NT. 2 Peter 2: 14 says "Wherefore, beloved (true believers), seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, WITHOUT SPOT, AND BLAMELESS." Compare what to Col. 1: 22-23 "yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you (true believer) holy and UNBLAMEABLE and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". Jude says Christ is able to "keep us from falling and present us faultless, but, also says we need to keep ourselves in the love of Christ!
Failure to remain in Christ only leads to hell. No exceptions!!
...The reason i say that the wheat is a baby Christ is simply b/c the Sower of the good seed is the Bridegroom...Thats y he has to know us ..thats when that good seed is sown in our hearts initiating a birth of Christ in us..The Son of man...Which is mankinds fruit unto God
....Thus the only one who is gonna be lost is our old adamic nature that is in rank with satan...As our God is a consuming fire that is gonna consume mans adamic nature..Satan...I think that is y we need to read Mal. 3 : 2...Who shall abide the day of his coming, Who shall stand when he appears...For he shall be as a REFINERS FIRE AND FULLERS SOAP....As our God is a consuming fire which is baptism of the H.G and fire...Which is what we need....But his judgement is also his love...We chastise our children simply b/c we love them...Right...And nothin can escape the love of God..
True Christians are not in danger of losing their salvation because of sin but false religionists are still in sin and will never be saved if they fail to seek the Lord for forgiveness. Lost sinners do not 'lose their salvation' because they never had salvation to begin with.
If Christians must maintain good works after they are saved then their salvation becomes a matter of their own efforts and good works, which is impossible. What sin is so bad that a Christian could lose his salvation and election over, adultery? Theft? Lying? Murder? Being late to work?
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are par takers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again, I just ask why Paul wrote in Romans 2 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by patient CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:" if we are unconditionally secure. Don;t get me wrong, I love the idea of unconditional eternal security, but, it just don't line up with scripture in it's proper context.
Take the parable of the 10 virgins. All 10 started with the oil in their lamps, which oil represents the Hoyl Spirit. 5 were foolish and not on tending to their oil lamps. They let it burn out and were rejected at the door by the bride-groom, representing Christ on the last day. Even though he said "depart from me, I never knew you" doesn't mean they never had the oil! They just let their oil run out. Christ, Paul, James, John, Peter, and all the writers of the OT all echoed the same thing. One who starts their journey with God MUST stay the course. If they don't then they won't go to heaven.
A Christian becomes a new creature when born-again. There are certain sins that Christians are no longer capable of committing, such as denying the Lord that bought them.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
How does one turn from sin and disobedience.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in my statues, and to keep my judgements, and do them.
PROPHECY FULFILLED at pentecost:
Philippians 2:13 For id is GOD (SPIRIT) that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
God Bless You!
Let's look at the OT, and please don't try and say that this was a different "dispensation" or that this has nothing to do with eternal life. This is salvation-based and demonstrates how God is never changing from Genesis through Revelation.
Ezk. 18: 20-21 "The SOUL that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will TURN FROM ALL HIS SINS that he hath committed, and KEEP all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Also, please explain Gal. 6: 7-9 & Rom. 2: 6-8 if OSAS is true.
What is DISOBEDIENCE:
Is it not, not believing what God says.
Not believing is disobedience.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD that WORKETH in you TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Most DON'T BELIEVE these WORD'S of God.
Do you believe that everything being done, IN YOU and BY YOU, is God's will and is God's work.
Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of my anger, and the staff in their hand is my indignation.
Isaiah 10:6 And I WILL send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath WILL I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and tread them down like the mire in the streets.
Isaiah 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed HIS WHOLE WORK upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I WILL punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isaiah 10:13 For he saith, by the strength of MY HAND I HAVE DONE IT .......
God didn't punish the king for stealing, raping the women, dashing the children against the streets, and killing men:
He punished him because he thought HE DID IT instead of UNDERSTANDING it was THE WORK'S of GOD through his hand.
TRUTH:
We are the vessel; Christ is the LIFE, TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Not believing these words causes us to walk in disobedience.
The sins of the flesh are covered by the blood of Christ; NOT BELIEVING his WORDS keeps us from being ONE.
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY (man) and ONE SPIRIT (Life and Truth).
God Bless You!
If yes ; just Get saved and God will do the rest , no need to do any thing , a common response . No fear or concerns .
If no : then be careful how you live , it could be fatal . Yes with faith and Gods help we can do it , common response , its worth it considering the option.
This must be the biggest question of all time in my Opinion . My belief is Only the Bible has the truth , and it must convince any one , or they just my get deceived . Jesus said Beware lest any man deceive you . Our eternity is at stake .
Thank you for your response. It is much appreciated. Just as I was saying in my other posts, it is nice to get feedback from others. However, I must say that the Bible is very clear in it's warning to all believers about falling away. There is no such thing in the Bible that says true believers will never fall away. If that was the case the Bible would be clear about that. However, the Bible is clear, like it or not, that salvation is conditional on our continued faith and walk with Christ. It is very easy for one to say "true believers" will never fall away. However, the only believers in the Bible are "true" believers that the writers are writing to. This idea that once someone is saved they are just automatically always saved, even if they live in disobedience, conflicts with the Word of God that says in Heb. 5:9 that Christ is the author of eternal life for those who obey him. Now, you mention physical death for those who are disobedient, but, James 5:19-20 mentions the spiritual death from "brethren" who err from the truth. Brethren are believers. So, as you can see Christians are not just automatically saved. Paul even knew this and address this many times over. Lastly, don't misrepresent 1 Cor. 11:30 as all encompassing. While there are some who were disobedient and it led to sickness and death, that does not account for those who willfully walk away from Christ. Those are 2 different things. The problem with those who believe in OSAS is that they always need to slightly twist verses out of context to fit their agenda, whereas I just let the Bible speak for itself in it's proper context. Whether you like it or not, the Bible is clear that salvation is conditional on our continued faith in Christ. No endurance to the end, no salvation.
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
It is likely that Christian churches down through the centuries have always had more false believers than true. The Bible is written to the Church to the saved and lost together, and God never encourages believers to take comfort in their salvation and ignore their responsibility to go on with God. Those believers who do not pay attention to God's word and never get saved will end up falling away into hell.
True believers have a responsibility to walk with God in fear and trembling, seeking always to please Him and obey His word. A true believer who walks in disobedience cannot be lost again, but he can become less profitable and may be taken out of the world early because of that.