Revelation Chapter 21 Discussion Page 4

  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    How do I know a man from Rome will sit in the temple? The roman empire has to fall and rise 10 times. Today we are in the 10th time and they're preparing to rise again. The roman head is now called the EU.

    This is all Revelation 13:1-7 prophecy and Daniel 7 and 8 prophecies. It's a lot to go into and can be confusing. But during the tribulation there has to be a religious ruler and a political ruler.

    Sorry we've written novels on here. But it was good talking with you about the Word. Yes, we differ on some things. But hopefully nothing that will get anyone cut off. The basics are keeping The Lord's 10 Commandments and statutes, having faith in Jesus Christ and that should get a person's foot in the door. Working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Strive to make it in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Without a shadow of a doubt, according to scriptures, no man (human) who has ever lived is in heaven right now except Jesus Christ himself.

    And the Lord isn't going to return until immediately the Great Tribulation.

    The only place of safety during the Great Tribulation for 3 1/2 years will be in the Wilderness...which the Lord will make sure his people get there safely just like he did in the days of old with the Children of Israel.

    I enjoyed the dialogue.
  • Mishael - in Reply on Revelation 21
    I mean no offense whatsoever, but your theology is a little scrambled. If you hang out here for a time we'll help you get it straight.

    Maybe Chris can help you. He's very patient and kind.
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Mishael, I just realized you're speaking of what I've said in regards to Revelation 21. I've been conversing with Jesse so much on here, I can't remember how it got started.

    But again, I don't believe I'm scrambled on Revelation 21. It's pretty cut and dry the end of the Book.

    Thank you
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Mishael, no offense taken at all. Not that my cup is so full that I have no room to learn, but on the things that I have posted, I have studied over 20 years and I'm pretty solid that it's sound. And everything I posted I laid out scriptures I got it from.

    I'm not sure what specifically you're speaking of that I've said which you find to be scrambled, but I have no problem waiting whatever it is out until the day the Lord Returns to clear it up.

    Again, no offense taken. Thanks for your input though.
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21

    As soon I sent a reply I get a message saying you replied. I should have waited just another 5 minutes. I just read over your last post and it is interesting. I need to dig a little deeper I suppose. Right now I can't commit to believing without a doubt that the antichrist will come from Rome. I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just not completely sure. It could very well be a Pope but I don't know that.

    You mention the basics as keeping the 10 Commandments and statutes. By statutes, are you referring to the Mishna? I gave up trying to keep the 10 Commandments. I found out early on that the harder I tried to keep them, the more I failed. I failed because I was trying to keep them the best way I knew how. But I couldn't do it. The reason I was failing was that I was trying to do these things in my own human effort. I don't think God thinks too much of anything I do in the human.

    I'll share this with you about the phrase "faith in Christ." There are places in my bible where I scratch through the word "in" and replace it with the word "of." Some might say that I'm adding to or taking away, but not so. Various places in scripture say faith in Christ, but the original text says faith of Christ.

    It's His faith. I come to know that there are two types of faith, human faith, and spiritual faith that the bible speaks of. We cannot produce spiritual faith. Spiritual faith is a fruit of God's Spirit. Without God's Spirit living in us, we could not have the type of faith the Bible speaks of. So I like to look at it as being the faith of Christ, not faith in Christ if that makes sense?

    As for "having a foot in the door," my foot in the door started the moment I began being receptive to God's Spirit drawing me to Christ. I had my foot in the door for a while until deciding to give my life to Christ. My foot's no longer in the door.

    As for writing novels, no worries there. I enjoy the conversation when it is respectful, even if we disagree. God Bless!
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Jesse, well, on Rome you will have to research history, deep into history and encyclopedias and match it with Bible history. You're sure to find what I have said is true if you do. A lot has to do with the Ten horns and what they represent dating back to the defeat of the Herulians, Vandels, Ostrogoths, Justinian and even Napolion, and so forth. It's Revelation 13 stuff you have to use world history with to piece it together. I would be writing and replying until the coming of the Lord if I went further into it. But I guarantee it's Rome. So I say to you just keep studying everything. Pray for more understanding, etc.

    You said it's too hard to keep the 10 Commandments??? Those are the very commandments mentioned throughout the bible that will assure us eternal life if we "strive" to keep them. You see I say "strive" because we're human. We cannot give up and say they're too hard to keep. What's so hard about not stealing, lying, committing adultery, coveting, keeping the Sabbath day holy, not worshipping idols and other gods, etc.? The first 4 commandments show us how to love God, the last 6 commandments show us how to love our neighbor (the way God instructed us to love our neighbor). So the 10 commandments is the law of love. As long as we're trying to keep them, we are showing love to God and our neighbors spiritually and physically.

    Now, there are other ways outside of that...but those are our basics. I think the only one most Christians have a problem with is the 4th Commandment. But I'm not trying to go down that rabbit hole. I gotta work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

    The goal is to do what's required to make the First resurrection.

    And I forgot, yes, I agree the second resurrection is for the Lake of Fire; however, they still must be judged at the Great white throne judgment.(Scary) I plan on and hope I'm a spirit being doing the judging by then.
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21

    Yes, I did read the scriptures you sent. However, those scriptures do not change my view to match with yours. Here's where we differ:

    I do not agree that "no one is in a conscious state after death." The story of the rich man and Lazarus would show me that both were in a conscious state after death.

    I do not agree that when we die (Physical death) "our body and soul dies and we're asleep until the appointed time." I believe this is a teaching held by the Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe the physical body (Flesh) will die and be in the grave, and one day we will receive our glorified bodies. But I believe the soul lives on forever. The soul of man will never die, or cease to exist. I don't believe in "Soul Sleep" either.

    I don't agree that "Jesus did not finish his ministry." Jesus Himself said, "It is finished right before He died on the cross." If His ministry and work were not complete, what would be our hope for salvation? I do believe Jesus finished His ministry here on earth. I do not believe that any human power could have stopped Him from finishing what He came for. To say that they killed Him halfway through His ministry doesn't make sense to me.

    No human power could have taken Him before He completed His work. There was a mob of about 1,000 men who came to take Him after Judas pointed Him out, but even that many men with clubs and swords could not have taken Him if His time to be taken was not then and there. Jesus blew that crowd of men backward on their behinds twice just by the power of His voice. You would have thought that by that time, they would have turned and ran. They couldn't have taken Him no matter how many men came to do it. Jesus surrendered Himself freely. If He was not finished with His ministry, He would not have freely surrendered Himself at that time.

    Thanks again for the conversation.
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Jesse, so Psalm 146:4 Which explains in the very day that we die, all of our thoughts perish indicates that we're in an unconscious state after death. I've given other scriptures which explain what happens at death, but okay. I'm not going to debate about it. We're all entitled to our beliefs. I'm not upset at your disagreement.

    And about the Rich man and Lazarus, if you read through that chapter and really see if for what it is, it is clear that "that" even takes place in the future. That has not happened yet. That rich man was in the Lake of Fire, which we all know hasn't even been created yet. No one is currently burning in the lake of fire. The Lake of Fire will be in Jerusalem, just like the Kingdom of God will be in Jerusalem. A gulf will be fixed between the two places.

    Abraham is still dead/asleep, has not been resurrected yet. So how could the rich man have seen Abraham? That story takes place after the Lord returns and sets up his kingdom on earth.

    The Lord will return & raise every human from death, great and small at his Coming, either in the first resurrection or 2nd, So how can any human be awake now?

    But again, I understand your position. I will not go further into it.

    Jesus finished his ministry on earth as it pertains to fulfilling what was testified about him in the Old Testament. All of that is the first half of his ministry and yes, he did complete that.

    Everything the prophets testified about concerning Jesus' coming was fulfilled and completed.

    The last 3 1/2 years "or" days in the week talked about in Daniel will be the 2nd half of his ministry when he returns and teaches in the wilderness.

    By the way, I am NOT a Jehovah's witness at all and not even close. Not saying that you called me one. But I wanted that to be clear. I do not agree with their teachings, like at all.

    I'm of no denomination. I just study the bible as it is written.

    No need to reply. We've had a nice chat.

    Nice talking to you too.
  • Mishael - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Praise God! Jesse
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21

    Amen, all praise, honor, and glory to Him. We are all just vessels for His purposes!
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Jesse, finishing where the dead goes and how Paul nor John nor any man who has ever lived could be in heaven presently.

    Job 14:1-2;10-13 Man dies and wastes away. Man dies and will not wake up until the heavens are no more. (We still have heavens so the dead are still dead)

    In Job 14:14 Job knew he had to wait until his appointed time to be resurrected.

    I Thessalonians 4:13-17 Those who are living will be changed...those in the grave will be raised at the coming of the Lord, which is the First Resurrection.

    Psalms 146:1-4 When we die, in that very day every though perishes. So how could Paul, who died, still be alive in heaven with thoughts?

    St. John 5:25; 28-29 All the dead will hear the voice of the Lord, some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.

    Daniel 12:1-2; 8-9; 13 This is referring to the Great Tribulation. Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel was told this prophecy wasn't for him but it was for the people of the End times. The Lord sealed the words from Daniel.

    St. John 6:35; 38-40; 44; 54;63 The Lord will raise people up on the Last Day.

    A lot of people still believe the dead is in heaven or hell right now, but the truth according to many scriptures is every man, good or bad is still in the grave until the Lord's First and Second resurrection. If humans were in heaven right now, what need would there be for a resurrection? The only one who's not dead is Enoch...who was translated but not dead.

    I'm certain you know these scriptures. But I hope that you will go over them again and maybe see something you hadn't noticed before since I've pointed out some things.

    Paul died in Christ so he will be one of the dead in Christ who will be raised at the Lord's 2nd coming.

    How do I know for sure a man from Rome will sit in the temple? (I'll finish in the the last thread.)
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21

    Thank you for your clarification. Much of what you say here I am in agreement with. I know that no flesh can enter into heaven. And I also know that upon death, the physical body (flesh) will remain in the grave until the resurrection. With Christ as my Saviour, I will be part of the first resurrection. I believe those who are part of the second resurrection will be cast into the lake of fire. I do not believe that the flesh goes to be with the Lord. I do believe that upon death that our spirit leaves our body and will be present with the Lord. So if I gave the impression that I believed that both flesh and spirit ascend up to heaven upon death, I assure you that was not my intent. To be honest, I've never told anyone that my whole body, flesh and spirit will be in heaven because I know that's not true.

    Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so I take absent from the body to mean just that. It means that upon physical death, my spirit will depart my body (absent from it) and I will be present with the Lord. I hope we're in agreement with that.

    Also, I do understand that the 70th week is referring to a 7-year period. 69 weeks have passed. We are currently living in the times of the Gentiles. My understanding is that the 70th week is still yet to come.

    You mention natural born Israel in a place of safety during the Great Tribulation. I agree. These will be Jews. They will be protected during the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation known as the Great Tribulation. We know of at least 144,000 Jews who God will protect.

    I guess I just have a couple question from this so far. Are you saying that Jesus died on a Wednesday? And are you saying that Jesus did not finish His ministry while He was here?

    I look forward to the rest of your reply on the man from Rome that you say you will be sending soon. Until then, thanks for sharing your understanding with me.
  • Mishael - in Reply on Revelation 21
    It's a spirit of false religion.
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Jesse, I realize the spirit goes back to God who created us. Keeping in mind our "spirit" in us is "the breath of life" that keeps us alive. We are the souls, and we have fleshly bodies. The breath of life is the spirit God breathes into our nostrils. However, the scriptures I posted were to show that no one is in a conscious state after death.

    So it's like no individual person with a spiritual body is up in heaven right now.

    When God breathed into Adam's nostrils, Adam became a "living soul"...without the breath of life he was a "dead soul." So we die, our body and soul dies and we're asleep until the appointed time.

    I did not get the impression that you were implying that the body was in heaven at all. I was just making sure you understood that Paul himself, even as a spirit, conscious and alive, is not in heaven right now. Especially since everyone will get their spiritual bodies at the Resurrections. The soul dies, the body goes back to the dust, and the spirit/breath of life goes back to God. No consciousness until the Return. I think we're clear now.

    Correct, Jesus did not finish his ministry because he was killed in the midst of the week.(a Wednesday) on the Passover which was in the midst of the week that year. He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights which had him rising at the end of the Sabbath, just before it dawned towards Sunday. He was out of the grave before Sunday.

    When he returns, he will teach Israel in the wilderness 3 1/2 yrs and finish his ministry. This will be mortals (Israel). I explained Jesus came to testify of what was written in the Old Testament. Did you happen to read over the scriptures I replied with?

    I say "Israel" as opposed to Jews because Jews in the biblical term really meant someone was from the tribe of Juda. Israel encompasses all 12 tribes. But I guess you're saying Jews to mean all of the children of Israel?
  • Banned again - in Reply on Revelation 21

    7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: ...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:....not their resurrected bodies, just the souls

    10 And they (the souls under the altar) cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    And they (the souls under the altar) cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (they await their resurrected bodies and think about how a pre trib rapture would fit into this scenario) Hint: it can not.
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    I'm very familiar w/the 70 weeks of Daniel. Daniel 9th Chapter. The 3 half years out of a week is talking about a prophetic week & a literal week. Jesus was cut off/killed in the midst of a prophetic week AND a literal week, What we know as a Wednesday. So he didn't finish his ministry. Jesus came to testify about what was written in the Old Testament. He taught 3 half years and was killed & that ended the animal sacrificial law.

    (So when I said he will teach natural born Israel in the wilderness 3 half yrs upon his return, that other 3 half years makes the 7yrs which represents a full week of his ministry. 7 years is a prophetic week. (please reference the story of Jacob and Rachel in Genesis 29:16-27 to understand what I mean by this. (7yrs is 1 week)

    In Daniel 10 (For Jesus to have been annointed the "Messiah" was 69 weeks, which left 1 more week (7yrs) a prophetic week.)(This about Jesus, Jerusalem, and the children of Israel, not the anti-Christ nor a 7yr tribulation. Jesus was annointed the Messiah in 26A.D(69 weeks) and cut off in 30 A.D. (70th week/7yrs/7th week)

    Revelation 12:1;6;14 (This is talking about natural born Israel in the place of safety(The Wilderness) during the Great Tribulation. 3 1/2 yrs.

    On Paul and John. II Corinthians 12:2 (Jesus was the ONLY man who was on earth then caught up to the 3rd heaven. So Paul is talking about how he saw Jesus in his spiritual body. Paul is not talking about himself. And John saw a vision of the Throne. He was not physically there.

    John 3:13 No man has ascended up to heaven but he who ascended out of heaven. (if any man other than Jesus is in heaven right now then Jesus lied; he cannot lie so we should all know the dead is still dead and their spirit is not conscious in heaven presently able to communicate with any being).

    Psalms 104:23; 28-29 Man dies/returns to the dust. Ecclesiastes 12:1;5;7 Man goes back to the dust;his spirit goes to God. (spirit is simply the breath of life).
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21

    I agree that all who are found worthy will receive spiritual bodies. But what does it mean to be found worthy? Am I found worthy? I think not. One day when I stand before the Lord, I'm going to know that I don't deserve to be there. I am found worthy not because of anything I did, but because God is going to see His Son in me. You see, I am made righteous through Christ because He alone is righteous. I have no righteousness of my own.

    You say that "the church applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual." I would agree that the church consists of all believers who have received Christ and have been born of His Spirit. I am not following what you mean about the "natural born" part?

    I also agree with you that there is only one more return to earth by Christ. And yes, the bible is clear that all eyes will see Him. Our technology today makes that possible (Satellite TV, etc.). This return to earth is His second coming. Revelation Chapter 19 says we come back with Him. But I don't believe this refers to us meeting Him first in the air (the clouds), and then immediately coming back down to the earth. Why would we meet Him in the clouds just to come right back down? I see nothing in scripture that supports that thought. I do agree that Christ will come and reign for 1,000 years. I see this as happening after the Tribulation period.

    You mention that "Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns." Can you share with me where you find that in scripture? I'm not saying I agree or disagree at this point. I just never heard that before.

    As far as the Tribulation Period goes, I still believe it will be a 7-year period. The first 3 years is called the Tribulation. The last 3 years, the bible calls it the Great Tribulation. And the whole time it is called the Tribulation period.

    (More to follow...)
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Jesse, what I meant by "to be found worthy" is just having a good rapport, righteousness through faith in Jesus upon his return.

    When I say "natural born Israel" is physical Israelites by bloodline. Since the male carries the seed, whoever a person's father's father is down the line is the true nationality of that person according to God. Not discounting "mixed" with something else. I'm going strictly by the male's seed as it was done according to the Lord and the bible Descendants of the children of Israel are still here today, only God knows exactly who they are. That's the only way he can gather them from where he scattered them throughout the 4 corners of the earth upon his return.

    (You say Revelation 19 says we come back with him?) Read: Zechariah 14:1;3-5;9;16-17 (iThe day of the Lord's return, yes, he said he will bring all the saints w/him.

    See: I Thessalonians 3:12-13(This is the Lord saying he's coming w/all his saints.

    See: Zechariah 14:9; 16-17 (EVERYONE that is left of all nations. Ask yourself, where did Jesus get his saints from that he'll have w/him upon his return? See: I Thessalonians.

    I Thessalonians 4:13-17 (The Lord coming down. He said the saints will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet him in the air. This all takes place "after" the last trumpet, "after" the "Great Tribulation."

    See: Daniel 7:1-3; 13-14; 17-18; 27 (verse 13 Remember the Lord said he's coming meeting in the clouds?)

    4 Kings=4 Kingdoms. The saints of the most high will take the kingdom. "Under the heaven"=This is Jesus' Kingdom on earth. Notice verse 27 This is the last prophecy the angel Gabriel gave Mary.

    Ezekiel 20:32-39 The Lord is dealing w/Natural born Israel "after" his return on earth. These are mortal beings he will plead w/and purge out the rebels in the wilderness, then make his new covenant w/them. Part of this scripture deals w/the past;part of it deals w/future events.

    I'll answer your second part shortly.
  • Naya - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Jesse, I realize that the Lord will gather the Children of Israel upon his return. The children of Israel are a people who have been scattered throughout the four corners of the earth. Scattered and not people who migrated. They are a people who were led away captive. (Referencing Deuteronomy 28 the curses). So I get that. But keep in mind upon his return he will give natural born Israelites their spiritual bodies as well as other nations who were are found worthy will receive their spiritual bodies.

    "The Church" applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual.

    He is only making "one" more return to earth and when he does, "everyone" will see him. It will not be secret. As he is descending, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those humans who are alive upon his return will get their change and meet him in the clouds, then they will all return right back to the earth. As he has stated he is returning to rule on earth 1,000 years. Spirit beings and mortal beings living together during the thousand years.

    But Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns. No scriptures support a 7 year tribulation. It's 3 1/2 years no matter where you read the Book.

    The last 3 1/2 years the Lord will finish his ministry and teach Israel in the Wilderness. Perhaps that's where people get confused. But the actual tribulation will begin as soon as the man of sin moves from Rome and sits in the Third Temple which will be built in Jerusalem soon. When the Abomination of Desolation moves into the temple, the 3 and a half year tribulation will begin.

    This only allows for so many characters. I will have to continue.
  • Linda G Lewis on Revelation 21:3
    Sometimes in today's world I become afraid that I won't be able to make it through the ugliness . Is the tribulation happening now? Will Christians have to endure the first 3 1/2 years or is Jesus coming before or after ?
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21:3

    From what I understand, the Lord will will come for His church before the tribulation period, and we will be with Him in heaven while those people on this earth who have rejected Him will go through a judgment period that very few will survive.
  • Linda G Lewis - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Thank you for your replies. I pray Jesus takes us before long.God bless all.
  • Jesse - in Reply on Revelation 21
    Revelation 22:20
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Revelation 21:3
    When did Jesus say the dead in Christ would be resurrected?

    John 6:39-40: Jesus said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up ON THE LAST DAY.

    John 6:44: Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY."

    Is the LAST DAY the thousand year reign of Christ?

    I believe so....then it is eternity and time is counted no more

    So if Jesus himself said the dead in Christ will be raised on the LAST DAY, and Paul said we who are alive and remain will not be caught up (raptured) until AFTER the dead are raised, then where does secret pre-trib rapture fit in?

    Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?

    In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation.
  • Phyllis stollimgs on Revelation 21
    My youth just completed a small scaled replica of New Jerusalem according the the size in Revelations teaching. With comparison to the US, it is about 1/2 the size of America. 1500 linear miles in any direction. That's just the city, it will sat down upon the new earth where habitats of the saints will have freedom to roam and live forever.
  • Dele Patrick on Revelation 21:3
    God's original desire is to dwell eternally with man sin was an aberration, christ was the cure

    God's desire was restored cos

    JESUS was Emmanuel God made flesh and now He dwell with us forever Amen.
  • LG Spears on Revelation 21
    In v.16 it says the lg., breadth & ht. of heaven are =. Is the ht. a mistake? In v.17 it says the wall is 144 cubits, is this thick. or ht or both since a wall has both & I suppose we assume it goes around heaven. Is 12,000 fur. the total dist. around the wall; if so, then heaven has about 141,000 sq. mi. of land which is about 1/2 the size of Texas & if 1/2 the land is used for housing & everyone in heaven lived in 2000 sq.ft. houses/ 5 persons per house on lots of 3,000 sq.f.t each, then heaven could house about 33,000,000 people. This would free up the remaining 1/2 of land for churches, golf courses, beaches, parks, nature trails & shopping malls--almost forgot ,& football stadiums.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 21
    It's always an interesting exercise when considering future events & places & the one you are sharing is one of them.

    Firstly, the New Jerusalem will be on the New Earth, i.e. not in Heaven. With the dimensions given of the city, it appears to sit in a cube, though one can rightly assume that the height of it probably means to the point where the clouds/atmosphere ends. The walls at 144 cubits (1 cubit = 1.5 ft) makes them 216 ft (again, probably height since the necessity for walls of that thickness seem unnecessary). Your further details of population density was interesting: I had never considered this to that extent. Though, our whole being (i.e. as those outfitted for Heavenly life) & therefore the necessity for shopping malls, beaches, etc. seem unnatural since we will be in the presence of Almighty God (v3), enjoying Him & His Son in continual praise & worship & thus we would pursue a lifestyle akin to what had in Heaven.

    What did pique my interest was vv 26,27. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." I just can't work out why the reference to sinners in a New Earth since all evil has been locked away by this time. Or, is it just to show the purity & holiness of the Earth & Jerusalem, that nothing evil could ever hope to come into it (i.e. if evil existed). And who are the nations? Any thoughts?
  • LGSpears - in Reply on Revelation 21
    I greatly appreciate the thoughtful reply by Chris regarding the size of our New Heaven. I have looked more carefully at Rev. 21: vs 12, 16 & 17 & conclude the following: Vs. 12 plainly states, "And (the new heaven) had a wall GREAT and HIGH ----"; Vs. 16 last part says "The Length and the Breadth AND the Height of it are Equal;" then going to the first part it says "And the city lieth foursquare and thus the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 furlongs (one furlong = 582 ft.).

    SO, Vs. 12 says the New Heaven would have both a great & high wall + Vs. 16 says the lg., breadth (width) & ht. of the walls are equal. These two statements rule out using the 144 cubit (210 ft.) measure for the height of the wall but instead limit it to the thickness; which does make sense because during this time period city walls where described by their heigth & thickness + their composition (for this wall it is jasper).

    Now one has to both read & think carefully. The first of Vs. 16 says the city is foursquare ( laid out in a square) with length = breadth/width and he measured the city with a reed and it was 12,000 furlongs. Now the question here is, what is 12,000 furlongs describing? One missing piece of info now is the perimeter around the city, which is provided by the stated 12,000 furlong measurement. Since the city is a square each wall must be 3,000 furlongs in lg. Then from the last portion of Vs. 16, we can conclude that since the lg., breadth and ht. are equal, that the ht. of the walls are also 3,000 furlongs or 1,746,000 feet or 331 miles.

    The above generates 2 interesting questions about the walls. The obvious first question is, why are the walls so high? How can a wall be that high and only 210 ft. thick, especially when you consider that it is made mainly of "jasper"(jasper is a brittle stone used for decrative objects).

    The above indicates that heaven should cover about 141,000 sq. miles or about 1/2 of Texas.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 21
    LGSpears, as with you, I find this subject fascinating & even though measurements are given in Rev 21, we have to assume that with our limited knowledge with how measurements were actually derived in those days, some errors will be there. For example, 1 (US) Furlong = 660 ft. So using 582 ft as you have done, isn't a great deviation from whatever was originally considered, however it does remind us that are musings over these facts can only at best be speculative, even to the actual construction dimensions of the city.

    However, I do see the measurements given are for the New Jerusalem & not the New Heaven. You might be seeing this as one & the same but I understand that the "first heaven & the first earth" as applying to the present earth & sky (which may include objects found in inner or deep space), & not to the place of God's Abode.

    Re: the dimensions of the city. Agreed, that length, breadth & height are equal, but I seem to read in v 16, that only measurement of one of the equal sides was taken (i.e. 12,000 furlongs = 1,500 miles). If this is the case, then we have 144,000 sq furlongs = 18,000 sq miles of land area & not including the 1,500 miles of vertical measurement of one side. Or is this a misunderstanding on my part? I won't even try to contemplate what the wall would appear like as a result!

    And another interesting feature in all this, which you no doubt would have observed, is the use of the figure '12' as the cardinal number seen in Revelation (e.g. 7:4-8; 12:1; 14:1,3; 21; 22:2) as well as its appearance in other Scriptures (e.g. 12 disciples, etc.). How does this all figure out in God's Design & Plan?

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