Revelation Chapter 12 Discussion Page 8

  • Ss - in Reply on Revelation 12
    The church are believers not people that gather in a building.
  • You want your prayers answered. I heard a sermon by William Branham, he qouted Jesus words, it is written. Jesus didn't act outside of God's word for Satan and he won't do it for us either. I saw that clearly today. I heard before to stand on God's word to pray according to God's word. Listen to FF Bosworth Christ the healer, he explains. It is written the just shall live by faith not reasoning or feeling or seeing or touching etc. Faith without works is dead.
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Lionjudah,

    Thank you for the scriptures. I only really go to church because I don't know any other Christians out of church, and I still need to be baptised. I feel like I need to have some time away from church, and just spend more time reading my bible and praying, but then my pastor reminds me about ( Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.) I really don't know what to do for the best. I keep asking myself why I keep going back because I know that God hates discord among the brethren, and I feel like I'm causing discord by questioning some of their doctrine. A few weeks ago after the service, I said to one of the women there that I didn't think that it was a good idea for them all to put the pastors on pedestals, and that I thought that the bible study should be in a group when we read passages from the bible and then we discuss them like we did at my old church, but at this church we just listen to one of the pastors preach and then tell us his opinion and expected just to except it without questioning it. As you can imagine, this didn't go down to well and everyone just looked at me. I just turned to them and said look at everyone earwigging and then everyone cleared the room and the younger pastor said that them kind of bible studies cause error and discord and that's why they do it that way. I'm not convinced though. Me and one of the other women that started a few weeks ago have decided we should look for another church once the Covid 19 pandemic settles down and the other churches open again.

    Kind Regards

  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Lionjudah,

    Thank you so much for your testimony and your words of encouragement.

    God bless you and your family

    Kind Regards

  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    And to your point: "where I am spiritually, without sin in the present or future, as after salvation I have not sinned". If I could develop that: if 'sinlessness' is indeed your present joyful position, then would you understand if I could describe your spiritual state as that of Adam & Eve before their fall? They were pure, sinless; had they remained that way, they would not have faced spiritual & physical death, as both these are products of sin. They would have lived on eternally in an incorrupt world.

    You are now sinless: would physical death finally overcome you, as it would for us? Of course, the Rapture (though I understand the a-millennial position of the Church of God) might prevent death from happening to you, but in biblical reality, you should as a sinless man never experience death. For the rest of us, death is a sure thing as in spite of our new justified position in Christ, our past sins that have corrupted our nature & our bodies guarantee our physical death.

    If you should say that you would still experience physical death because of the past corruption of the body, then that only shows the Truth of Rom 6:23, that the sin nature is still evident (maybe, not reigning in you), & the end of it must be a physical death; the spiritual death being averted through Jesus Christ. So with the removal of sin & the sin nature, there must of necessity be no further corruption of the physical body leading to physical death.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 1.

    David, I see that we are considering the same precious Scriptures yet with a different understanding. Of course, this is not the medium one can use for a detailed exposition of the Scriptures, so we're limited to a proper development of what was written & how we are required to understand it. Suffice to say, in respect of this matter, I see Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" as the thrust of Paul's discourse. There were those in the Church who had a warped view of God's Grace (for past, present & future sins). Since God's Grace abounded towards them ( Rom 5:20, 21), then "why worry about sin, as all sin gets forgiven under God's abounding Grace". Paul had to refute that with Rom 6:1 & following verses. It is from here we disagree, as you understand that our "body of sin destroyed" (6:6), "freed from sin" (6:7), "dead to sin (6:11), etc. are all referring to both past, present & future removal of the sins & the old nature. I understand Paul was referring to the Law that only pointed to the fact of our sin, & that Law was now removed/cancelled by virtue of Jesus' death, thus enabling the believer to stand before God as righteous & justified based on the Perfect Sacrifice & no longer to be a servant of sin (which is of the Law).

    Then in the Rom 7 passage which you believe speaks of Paul's 'previous life' before God, which has merit, except as said before, in verse 25, after all his introspection & abhorrence of the old nature, he exclaims (now, in the present), that through Jesus Christ he serves God (the new Law), but in the flesh (the old nature) he serves the Law of sin (the old Law). For us to include this verse 25 with the preceding verses as Paul's witness of the old life makes this verse meaningless if we're to keep the same 'past tense'.
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Revelation 12
    And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

    40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

    41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

    2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

    3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

    5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

    6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

    7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

    8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

    9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

    13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

    14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

    15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hey Clare, U are right don't sound like the pastor's have the holy spirit? It's ok to do it on your own. take the narrow road, I've been kicked out of churches for speaking up and asking many qustion's, Because I saw the church controdicting the bible with there doctrine? they couldn't answer. I was all alone after that when I Got letter's sent to me about not accepting there doctrine. After That I wen't and brought me a bottle to drown my sorrow's away because I thought I did bad to the church I was mad of my self Because I thought I was in the wrong. I was praying with tears to our holy christ to forgive me. I was outside in the rain & asked jesus If I was still his servent? If he could show me a single star on the rainy night? He opened the clouds up wright above me and Showed me more than I asked for as I was looking up he told me that the name church means (CALLED OUT ONE'S) out of bondage. called out of man's doctrine out of trusting in man,Pastor,church. Be Still and trust Him not man!

    jesus only died once so u can't hang him up twice on the cross. Just stay trusting in him try fasting for the word in the spirit of understanding. Stop trusting in man... u will learn more with christ alone. loney walk on the narrow road. I will pray for u my sister in christ and for your famlily JAH Favour U With Blessing's.
  • Norman Walker Butch - in Reply on Revelation 12
    I believe what the Bible says and if you do then no one is free from sin. I try very very hard not to sin and what I do is say the Ten Commandments one by one and try and judge myself from that, one by one and talk about each one to myself. I will never every add to or take away from anything the Bible says. If I do not know for sure I say so. I do know that from doing this I am getting better and better at doing my best not to sin. I love Jesus Christ with all of my heart and I am a very firm believer. It is so easy for me to believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it. Just look at the Sun, burns at the perfect temp. to keep us alive and never has run out of fuel so how many things do you know that burn and never burn out. The earth is a perfect world to keep us alive and just look at the millions of different living things on this earth. My friends the heavens and the earth did not evolve it was created by God. Amen
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    2nd part: some I may have to re-address as I was interrupted in thought.

    See Hebrews ch 7 and 9 where it is discussing the old testament versus the new testament. Not so much 2 Bible segments but the old animal sacrifice vs. the new provided by Jesus' death on the cross. The old could not save from sin as they had to sacrifice for sin yearly. Jesus paid the sin sacrifice so we will be free from sin through Him.

    He. 7:22 "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." How was/is it better? His blood atones for sin and breaks its power so we do not continue in sin. Would Jesus command man Jn. 5:14 or woman Jn. 8:11 to go and sin no more if we could not do so? With Jesus, we can be saved from sin, His blood sacrifice on the cross gave us power over sin to cease the sinning that corrupts the heart and defiles the soul.

    A part of my testimony is I am saved from sin. I had to be saved from sins I used to do. I have done so through repentance so that I am justified or saved. This took care of sins I did in my past. I also needed my heart cleansed from the inherited sin from Adam. This is sanctification. It is only given to those already free from sin via salvation. It includes having God remove the carnal nature from the heart and filling that space with His Holy Spirit. It doesn't make one speak in tongues as Pentecostals do. Salvation and sanctification are 2 fully separate steps at an altar in the Church building. See 2 Co. 5:17 my old sinful self is dead and I am a new person in Christ after salvation, even more so after sanctification.

    I can re-address later as needed. And I'm sure I didn't cover all questions. I will revisit in near future as I do want you to see where I am spiritually, without sin in the present or future, as after salvation I have not sinned. I do not claim I never sinned, just that I do not sin after God saved me. It is not me or my power, it is God's that gives grace and power to not do what I used to.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Chris, Yes the Exodus 2 reference was a typo. It should have been Luke 22.

    Referring back to Paul's testimony in Romans 7, admitted it does seem odd or confusing, but I recall that he wrote it in the historical present tense. He could not have had that wretched man type of experience and tell us in 1 Co. 15:34 "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." Take Ro 6th and 8th Chapters along with the 7th. Ro. 6:1 asks if we should continue in sin that grace may abound, answer in vs. 2 God forbid or No we cannot continue sin under His saving grace. Romans Ch 8 begins with Paul stating no condemnation to them that are in Christ. A saved from sin experience matches no condemnation, a sinful life cannot.

    Romans 5:12 is just part of the thought Paul was conveying. Another part further on, vs. 18, 19 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." The first man is Adam in the beginning. His sin caused all mankind to be born with a sin nature in their heart. The second man mentioned is Jesus, His righteousness is the free gift of justification to those that ask for it through repentance. Vs. 19 tells us that all were made sinners by Adam's transgression, but if we get saved in Jesus, we will be made righteous. Being righteous cannot be mixed with a sinful life.

    Think on this, why did Jesus come to Earth as He did? He did so to leave us the example to live by, and to sacrifice His own life on the cross, to be our sacrificial Lamb required to save us from sin. Think OT animal sacrifices. They did this yearly to atone for sins committed. It didn't make them free from sin, but only appeased God's law. Jesus, as The Lamb, a sacrifice died to atone for our sin, to save us from..
  • Mishael - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Ephesians Chapter 6

    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace,

    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the FIREY DARTS of the wicked.

    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    Ask the Lord to make you an instrument of Peace in your family. Show the kindness of Jesus when you see your son.

    I went through something similar as you. I lost all my sinful friends because I was born again. I got lonely and asked Jesus to bring me some new friends. He answered that prayer! :) Come here often, study scripture Till every time you get bumped...out flows a scripture. Speak all the blessings over your kin. This is when we learn patience, long suffering, temperance; which are hard to endure but well worth going through.
  • Mishael - in Reply on Revelation 12
    LOCUST swarms in Africa

    Locust are in the Bible. It's insect and also a pestilence. If you Google "locust swarms in Africa", You will see news reports of swarms of locusts decimating the little food that they are able to grow. They desperately need help in feeding many starving people. They've pleaded with the world community to fund and assist in spraying the few crops they still have. Look at the comparison of a locust to a grasshopper. They just look evil.
  • Cecilia Littmon on Revelation 12
    Amen. I came out of my church which I was and a mega church . I found the Lord. I am so elated that I did. But it seems as though my whole family have turned against accept my son who accepted Christ in his life and his family. The Lord said that if you were able to save that one then the Angels are praising me in heaven. Amen
  • Stanjett - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Even thou there is a tree called lucus tree. These were bugs.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 3.

    There was no getting away from this fact: while he (& we) walk this Earth we have this nature from Adam ( Romans 5:12) which makes us all sinners & the proof is in our experience of both spiritual & physical death.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    You wrote, "all are tempted, but temptation does not become sin unless you let it linger in the heart". I fully agree but since you've also said that you remain sinless by not allowing that temptation to bear fruit, the path is still open for you to be overcome at some point, which would then make you a sinner. It's heartening to read that thus far you have resisted & remain pure (as only the Lord & yourself could judge), but as said previously, if sin should overtake you, how then does it establish itself if only the new nature from God is in you? Adam/Eve never knew sin - Satan tempted them to sin, thereby placing in them his nature so that sin could take root & condemn them. Jesus never sinned - Satan tempted Him also to sin but He resisted him with the Word of God (Himself) & unlike Adam, the last Adam could not/never have Satan's nature imputed in Him.

    What has perplexed us is your claim to be without sin. Now we can understand that you're saying that thus far you have deflected the Enemy's thrusts at you & remained guiltless. When we understand sinlessness, we can only find examples of this in Adam/Eve before their fall & in Jesus Christ; no other person in history has ever been recorded or observed as sinless. You were forgiven & cleansed from your sins in July 1994, but that was for your past sinful life. Nevertheless, the old nature (which you say has been destroyed), is still with you, to which Satan does battle, having had free access during your unsaved years & now raging more than ever, as a child of God. Romans 7, to which you believe Paul was speaking about his battle with sin as a Jew, is actually him speaking as a believer in Christ. This battlefield involved the flesh & the spirit that caused him great spiritual anguish. Yet, he found victory in abiding in Christ & had to admit that "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 1.

    David, thank you again. I do agree with your understanding of sin, that it encompasses more than obedience to the Ten Commandments, though many 'Christians' today think nothing of uttering an expletive or telling a 'white' lie, considering that to be normal. Also, I agree with your example 1, in dealing with the entrance of sin into the mind ( James 1:15). Your example 2 (not Exodus 2, I assume), on Judas, I see differently. Judas already had sin in his heart as keeper of the purse ( John 12:3-6), being recorded as a thief as he probably dipped into it often. So sin was already there - Satan came to tempt him, sin revived & Satan gained another notch. As for Judas & the rest of the disciples, I never considered them to be saved - they were carnal men, moved by God to follow Jesus, to believe in His Message, & to await that day of Pentecost when they would be truly transformed & be born again.

    However, sins like that of Judas, where contemplation & decision to act are necessary for sin to be the outcome, are not always so well defined. The other day while at the traffic lights, a driver went through a red light but the car going through the green light managed to brake in time. My immediate thought (& look on my face) was one of shock & anticipation of the worst - soon followed by a sense of loathing & mental derision of that driver. I did not have time to contemplate my response - it came out in an instant & sadly a response that was sin as it wasn't in keeping with how a life holy to the Lord would behave. No one witnessed my sin - but God did. So there would be times in our lives when we may not be able to make a decision to not sin, but yes, our lives should be so fine-tuned so as not to respond the way I did.
  • Why the word RAPTURE is not found in the King James Bible on Revelation 12
    Reason why the word RAPTURE isn't found in the King James Bible. It is called: CAUGHT UP in the clouds.

    This is where the term came from.

    >> So we see that the English, RAPTURE, Latin RAPIO, and GreekHARPAZO, are cognates - they are the same word in different languages. But not only are they the same word, they have the same meaning. Anyone who has done a little reading from extra-biblical Greek and Latin, or has at least enough familiarity with those languages to use the classical Greek and Latin lexicons, is well aware of the fact that Greek (harpaz) and Latin rapio regularly bore the same sense of "remove from harm's way" that pretribulationists claim for the English word rapture. It was regularly used by the mythologists of the gods snatching their favorites out of harm's way. And it was regularly used in similar senses by the historical authors. I recently noted that Josephus used it of parents snatching their children up and running for cover when Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    Jesus is not touching the earth during the Rapture. He's going to catch us up into the clouds, to meet him.

    First: the deceased born again believers.

    Second: alive and watching for Jesus, believers.

  • LOCUST swarms in Africa - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Locust are in the Bible. It's insect and also a pestilence. If you Google "locust swarms in Africa", You will see news reports of swarms of locusts decimating the little food that they are able to grow. They desperately need help in feeding many starving people. They've pleaded with the world community to fund and assist in spraying the few crops they still have. Look at the comparison of a locust to a grasshopper. They just look evil.

    May we all remember the Africans in our daily prayers and ask the Holy Spirit to guide our petition.
  • T - in Reply on Revelation 12
    We know from the plagues of Egypt the locust was the insect.

    The book of Joel also speaks in regards to locusts swarming, eating and destroying.

    The book of Revelation also forewarns of the locusts which will plague unbelievers. Scorpion tales and human faces.

    I'm glad to be a believer in Jesus Christ!
  • Joyce Garland on Revelation 12
    In Matthew 3:3

    What is everyone's opinion on the locust was it a tree or bug ?
  • There is 1 Earth and 1 Heaven

    There are 3 separate and distinct Earth and Heaven Ages or Dispensations of Time.

    Chapter 3 in the 2nd Book of Peter speaks of these three separate ages or time periods. They are:

    1) "the world that then was" ( 2Pet 3:6)

    2) "the heavens and earth which are now" ( 2Pet 3:7)

    3) "a new heavens and a new earth" ( 2Pet 3:13).

    The whole chapter should be read.

    In general, everything mentioned in the Bible falls into one, a combination of the three, or all three of these chief Dispensations of Time.
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Lionjudah,

    Thank you for the encouraging scriptures.

    God bless you and your family.

    Kind Regards

  • Earl Bowman on Revelation 12

    Amos 3:7 Surely, the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto the; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet, and shall call thee, The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

    Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
  • Word 76 on Revelation 12
    Revelation 12 is what I call an outline of events of the past and things to come and I'll tell you verses 7 to 9 are yet to come. Satan kicked to earth and stands up in Jerusalem looking like a messiah with supernatural powers claiming he is God returned and the world goes wild in a fake peace and they party like in the days of Noah's time. Don't believe Satan and his deceptions.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply on Revelation 12

    Amos 4:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

    Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

    Zachariah 14:7 But it shall be a day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening it shall be light.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris, I'll try to clarify more as best as possible. Sin is the things you mention such as lying, stealing, murder. It also can be gossip and similar acts with evil intent. A very basic definition of sin is doing or not doing that which is against the will of God. Sin can be not doing what God says. Think of Jonah, God gave the order to witness to Nineveh, but he ran from the task.

    Ex: An evil thought enters the mind. You decide what to do with it, to cast it out or harbor it in your heart. If you cast it out, it's over. Victory against temptation. If it goes into the heart to continue, there is where sin develops and one begins to act out on it. See 1 Co. 10:5 "Casting down imaginations" I can only resist temptation because of God's Spirit in my heart from sanctification. Ex. 2: Judas; things such as covetousness/love of money was a temptation, he harbored it in heart and acted by betrayal for 30 pcs silver. Luke 22:3 Satan entered Judas because he did not cast temptation out but rather dwelled on it and acted on it. We know the rest, he betrayed Jesus and later regretted it, then in despair hung himself. He was saved at one time, temptation took hold, he betrayed Jesus, and lost out.

    James 1:12-15 "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation" Fact, all are tempted, but temptation does not become sin unless you let it linger in the heart. Temptation itself is not the sin but if it reaches the heart then it becomes sin.

    Consider these too; Ep. 4:3-6 Only 1 God who teaches all the same, no confusion in 1; 1 Co. 14:33, 1 Co. 1:10 speak the same thing, not language but in belief.

    I did not always know much about God. When I got saved, the Holy Spirit taught me truth and I then can read and understand the mysteries in the Bible. And to be clear, salvation and sanctification are 2 separate acts required to be fully saved from sin. Think OT tabernacle with 2 rooms, both with altars to apply blood sacrifice. Today Christ is the our sacrifice. If we believe and obey.
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi J J,

    Sorry to hear that you live in a bad place. God bless you and your family.

    Kind Regards.


    Heavenly Father,

    Please protect J J, Like you protected Noah and his family during the flood, and please open the doors of heaven for J J, like you opened the Red sea for Moses.

    Thank you father, In Jesus name I pray. Amen.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    b. even given that you are able to avoid such sins & remain sinless, the question arises: can a person who has no sin (therefore no sin nature) can, even in temptation's provocation, contemplate whether he chooses to sin or not? I'm certainly not in that position because I know when temptation comes, its appeal is to my sin nature & from there I make the decision with the Spirit's help & word to my heart. But if no sin nature exists (as was also with Jesus), then how can there be a choice to sin or not, as there's no evidential sin in you & nothing for that temptation to take hold of to cause sin?

    For sin to take root there must of necessity be a 'fertile' ground for it to germinate - & in your case (as you say) you only have the new nature given by the Spirit (the old being done away with), & this new nature simply cannot be invaded by all manner of evil. So, as I see it, you don't really have a choice to sin or not - your nature doesn't allow you to have one.

    Truly, a very difficult concept for me to grasp.

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