Revelation Chapter 12 Discussion Page 7



 
  • Anonymous - in Reply on Revelation 12
    wen's yur burthda jhordin?
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Chris, A few things to consider about salvation and sanctification, and how these do create a person that is fully sinless: remember this is a person who repented to be saved and later got carnality removed by the power of God. Sin is a spiritual illness not a physical one. Afflictions and illness do happen to saints like myself. Being physically sick is not a sin, and will happen to every one of us.

    Ps. 34:19 "Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all."

    I Peter 5:9 "Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world."

    James 5:13-16 "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

    Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

    Here, we have a few examples of afflictions mentioned. Sickness can occur in saved or unsaved, the difference is those that are saved can call on God to heal them through faith. See the progression in this passage in James? Vs 13 Afflicted? Let him pray. Vs 14 then call for the elders, as in the pastor of your local congregation to pray for you after anointing with oil. 15 Something to keep in mind is that the word sin, as defined in Webster's dictionary, can be a fault, there are sins against God or against fellow man. Salvation is to remedy that sin committed against God only. This doesn't correct your faults, or these trespasses, transgressions, sins against another person. Mat. 6th forgive trespasses.

    Think of the 1 lying in the bed Jesus healed of sin and illness, Mark 2. Jesus healed and saved him. 2 separate miracles.
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for your reply, the scriptures, your words of encouragement & for checking out that site "The Way Prepared" for me. Could you please be a bit more specific about your concerns with their teaching as I'm struggling myself to understand the scriptures & with me being a fairly new Christian, it's hard for me to know what's true and what's false.

    Thank you for your sharing your knowledge regarding the church & the body of Christ. I, do say that I'm off to church meaning a building/location, but I know now that it's really the Body of believers.

    God bless you & your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Amelia,

    Thank you for wishing my daughter 'A very happy birthday'. I told her what you said, she said thank you.

    God bless you & your family.

    Kind regards

    Claire
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Advise to Single Christian MinistersMishael

    I believe that being alone and isolated is Satan's best tool against us, because I suffered from depression & anxiety for about 30 years until it got to the point where I didn't want to wake up & I prayed in my heart for God to give me some peace & within a few mins I felt peace. (Praise God !!!)

    I will do some research & see if anyone knows of any of these types of things going on anywhere because I don't know of any church in my area that do anything like this. I told my pastor a few weeks ago about this guy that sits outside Aldi pretending to be homeless. He always has different clothes, shoes, & coats on & I've seen him with at least four different sleeping bags too. He's better dressed than me sometimes. Anyway, long story short my pastor said that someone asked him for money once & he told them that if they listened to the gospel for a few mins then he would give him some money & that the guy just walked off. He went on to say that if we don't work we shouldn't eat. I was very offended by this because I haven't been able to hold a job down for more than a few weeks here & there for over 20 years, due to suffering from depression & anxiety which led me to being on benefits most of my life. (Praise God that I no longer suffer from depression & anxiety !!!) but I am yet to find employment as I have only just ended my recovery period when the Covid 19 pandemic came along.

    Thanks you for your advice, the scriptures, & your words of encouragement.

    God bless you & your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Donna,

    Thanks for your reply. I believe that the Holy Spirit is dealing with me too. I think that I may even have the gift of discernment because I've suffered from anxiety all my life until people laid their hands on me & prayed for me at my old church. I've always been able to sense good or bad about people & situations, for example I can meet someone new & I either get a good, bad, or neutral feeling about them or go somewhere & get the same feelings about them too. I have no idea what triggers this feeling, but in every case I can think of it usually turns out that I'm right. My friends use to say that I was paranoid when I said that I had bad feelings about things, but the times I didn't listen to my gut instincts I ended up it trouble. I now trust my own instincts, rather than people.

    I will continue to pray and read the Word of God, and ask the Holy Spirit to teach me the things that I don't understand.

    Thank you for your prayers & your words of encouragement.

    God bless you & your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Thanks for your reply, Claire, & I'm sure there are many who are lifting you up before the Lord including about your place of worship, the people there & your family situation. The Lord hears you & as you keep your heart & mind affixed upon Him & express full faith in spite of your circumstances, you will find the Lord opening up the way before you.

    Faith is what moves the Hand of God. Mark 9:23, 24: "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

    I took a cursory look at the "The Way Prepared" site, particularly on 'Our Greatest Hindrance' & 'Ten Commandments' & though they gave a thorough dealing with the subjects, I had some serious misgivings with their teaching as they don't conform entirely to what I understand are scriptural Truths.

    Just one more point on The Church. I picked up on this conversation you were having. To state, that 'Church' in the Bible always points to 'a group of people, a congregation, a gathering for religious purposes'. The Greek word is 'ekklesia'. It never speaks of a building - the Church is a living organism: the Body of Christ: 1 Corinthians 12:27, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." And verse 28, describes some of the appointments & functions within this Body, the Church. However, it wouldn't be wrong to say that 'we're off to Church today' as applying to a building/location but the meaning is essentially to the Body of believers. Every blessing to you as you wait on the Lord.
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Claire, I pray u recieve Jesus as your husband. I pray u have the strength to keep walking in the spirit & that your feet stand ferm on the rock. Jah bless..
  • Amelia - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Dear Claire's daughter,

    Have a very happy birthday!
  • Advise to Single Christian MinistersMishael - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Being Alone and Isolated

    Satans best tool against anybody, saved or unsaved, is ISOLATION. You are vulnerable because of it.

    The Humility of Jesus is shown in how he cared for people who came to Him for help. It was spiritual and practical.

    There are many, many ministries who could use an extra pair of hands, and a friendly smile.

    You aren't going to have a husband ring the doorbell. You need to make some calls; call your church for advise. Be VISABLE. Try to break out of solitude, doing one of these following ministries:

    Feeding ministries (packing or distributing

    Benevolence (Clothing,toys,shoes)

    Collecting coats for Kids

    Helping with blue or brown Santa

    Writing out Holiday greeting cards for shut-in's or elderly

    Your local civic organizations (paint scenery for Christmas plays, find costumes, etc

    Help Habitat for Humanity

    A Christian man may be out in the midst of all that: being his kind and caring self. As long as you're isolated you will not be in range of meeting. (Mission accomplished by Satans crummy helpers.) Conversation in public only.

    If your church doesn't do these kind of things; find a church with a big singles ministry. No rule says you can't visit other singles ministries and attend your regular church.

    John 10:10

    "The thief (satan) cometh not, but for to steal (your joy and peace), and to kill (your faith that God loves you), and to destroy (you! Piece by piece). I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly (Jesus)."

    You have to fight back like a warrior, Ephesians 6.

    Amos 3:3

    Can two walk together, except they be agreed? {Pray to receive a life partner, or spouse.}. This doesn't work unless you feed your faith. Have an inner attitude of praise and worship towards God. Participate in life outside of your house.

    Refuse violently when demons of doubt come to shred your faith. Eph.6

    You need to print this out or copy. Tape it to the back of your closet door.
  • Amelia - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Amen. God bless you both. God bless you all to.
  • Amelia - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Amen. God bless you Jhordyn.
  • Donna Williams - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Thank you Claire for your kind words and prayers. I believe that the Holy Spirit is dealing with you about the things that you have mentioned concerning the congregation that you are a part of.

    I encourage you to take heed and do not ignore what's in your spirit. There is definitely something wrong. The enemy always tries to make us feel that we are the ones who are in error. Please continue to pray and read the Word of God for yourself, and whatever you do not understand allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. I know without a shadow of doubt, by what you have shared that you are in the wrong place as it pertains to where you fellowship. I am praying that the Lord will bring you out and lead you to the right place, where you will be fed the Word of God. Depend on the Holy Spirit and not man.

  • [Comment Removed]
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Book of Acts in your Home,

    Thank you for your reply. I tried to do a Bible Study at home a few times with our newest member at church, but it was a disaster. If she disagreed with it she would get aggressive and say that's your opinion. I told her it was scripture, but it didn't make a difference. I haven't invited her since. I try to avoid drama because it causes me anxiety. I tend to spend most of my time on my own nowadays, as I have been single for the last 13 years. I would be most grateful if anyone reading this thread could pray for me to meet my future husband (Lord willing of course !!!) because I've just turned 44 & never been married, & my Daughter is 20 on the 12th Oct, so I doubt she will be living here much longer. It would also be nice to have some emotional support & someone to pray for me instead of feeling lonely & struggling with my faith on my own.

    My Daughter & my Mum do see me reading my bible and hear me listening to Christian songs, but I usually do it in my bedroom out of their way because it causes conflict, especially when my Mum's here. I usually do my prayers in the morning and before I go to bed in secret like the Bible says, but I also pray with my daughter when my mum's gone home for my nephew. He has an autoimmune disorder because of a bone marrow transplant that he had when he had leukemia. Any prayers for him would be greatly appreciated. .

    I feel happy reading the scriptures, fellowshipping on here, & reading things on Christian websites like 'The Way Prepared Scriptures Study Review'. I'm trying to be a bit more Godly & a bit less worldly day by day because I know that it's impossible for me to do it over night. I just have to keep reminding myself to resist the Devil & he will flee from me & keep moving forward.

    God bless you & your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Revelation 12
    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Claire u & that women can be the church two or three gathered in Jesus name Jesus said he will be in the midst teaching u.
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Revelation 12
    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Claire u & that women can be the church two or three gathered in Jesus name Jesus said he will be in the midst teaching u.
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Claire, totally understand u. But church is a building not a bodyofchrist(PEOPLE) True believers that worship in truth & spirit, Church(MAN DOCTRINE'S) is a numbers game. always has been always will. Untill jah will be done. O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what partAnd what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris,

    Thank you for your reply. Yes, Everyone is being really helpful & encouraging. I am enjoying the "online" fellowship & the comfort & help that is being provided by my brothers & sisters in Christ.

    Most of the people In the two main churches that I have been to seem to be happy just plodding along and taking everything that the pastors say as gospel. I think they think that because they have been baptised, believe that Jesus died for our sins, & they turn up for church on Sunday that this is enough to them into Heaven. Others might experience that 'comfortable' fit within the Church. But I didn't really feel that at any of the churches that I have been to. I have always felt like I didn't fit in anywhere even from a very young age, and yes I am hungry for Truth from the Word & want to practise what the Bible says & I don't just want to plod on in vain & on the day of judgement be stuck with a

    I don't believe a perfect church exists, but I do believe we can still maintain our beliefs, yet also enjoy worshipping together, be it online or elsewhere. I haven't been to church this morning because I feel like I learn more & have a better understanding by reading the bible myself & listening to independent views online, but after reading your reply about it being important for me to fellowship with other believers, I have decided to go to the evening service tonight.

    I don't think it's good for me to spend too much time with non believers because it causes me anxiety to be around them too long. I think it's best I just pray for them because my relationship with them is rocky already and has been since I was a teenager.

    I came across a site last night called 'The Way Prepared Scriptures Study Review' one of the topics was 'Our Greatest Hindrance: The Doctrines and Commandments of Men' I found it helpful, and was wondering if anyone on here is familiar with the site ?

    God bless you & your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Book of Acts in your Home - in Reply on Revelation 12
    In the first chapters of Book of Acts, the Christians we're having Church in each other's homes.

    Anyone can have a Bible Study in their home. You don't need a diploma. I've had many a bible study with a spaghetti dinner! Everyone gets blessed. We would discuss just like we do here. Pass around a sheet of paper so they can write what they'd like to study the next week.

    It does not hurt the children to see adults cracking open the Bible and be excited about reading the Bible. Or praying for each other's Needs.

    :). People will come if they know they're going to get spaghetti. I get happy just reading of that book of Acts Fellowshipping.

    I had young, old, male, female; someone brought a guitar some nights. Don't let others insecurities stop your joy in the Lord Jesus.

    Mishael
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Claire, thank you for your reply - I see you're very busy answering others as well, so hopefully what you learn here & the fellowship we can enjoy together 'online' would give you some comfort & help.

    I've been following this thread & I understand your desire for correctness in all aspects of belief & practise of the Church. That is truly commendable as there are too many 'fence sitters' who are either unconcerned or uncommitted in what they believe or aspire to - a case of "I am born again, going to Heaven, so I'll just tag along with the Church crowd". This is easy to do so as to receive acceptance by others & to experience that 'comfortable' fit within the Church scene. But you're hungry for Truth from the Word & want to practise what the Bible says & not what you are told or from 'Christian' traditions.

    From my 41 years of walking with the Lord, I've yet to find a Fellowship that 'ticks all my boxes'. I don't believe it exists as there are too many variables in the Teachings & within the Body of Christ. Not that that should discourage you to give up altogether like those 'fence sitters', but I believe we can still maintain our 'strong & clear' beliefs, yet also enjoy worshipping together with the saints. However, if biblical teaching is defective, then that would be cause for concern & for my leaving.

    I too, don't observe any 'Christian festivals' & those whom I know, also know & accept my beliefs. I might still enjoy a lunch on Dec 25th with unsaved friends, but use the occasion to share something from the Word about Jesus. I don't think the Lord holds us as sinners for allowing certain things, rather that we use such occasions for His Glory. And then you have your Mum & daughter to consider during such occasions.

    I think that it's important for you to ultimately get into fellowship with other believers, even a home Church, as going it alone has many down-sides & we would hate to hear that you have weakened in your faith & love for the Lord.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    Re: Adam's first sinless state. Again, allowing your comment: "Yes, excepting Adam and Eve were created sinless and I had to gain sinless life via repentance to be saved and then later to be sanctified to be rid of the inherited sin passed on from Adam's fallen state." I agree, the corruption that came to you (& me) because of sin has remained with us, but your claim to now be sinless (= no inherited sin) through sanctification, tells me that all corruption has now been removed from you, or else you can't be sinless. However, once corrupt, the flesh remains in that condition (death being its final proof) in spite of a miraculous spiritual renewal by God. If God through His Son's Sacrifice would also remove that corruption, then you would be like Adam pre-fall & never fall ill, be diseased or die - it's impossible, as it would destroy the whole meaning of being incorruptible. Both Adam & Jesus could not die naturally, whether by disease or old age. Adam eventually did die because he was a sinner with a corrupt nature - Jesus did die because He was sinless but chose to surrender His Life: John 10:18, "No man taketh it (My Life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

    The one who is sinless, has no corrupt nature & therefore can never die, as death is the final product of sin, which sin you aren't in possession of, as you believe.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 1.

    David, so again I re-read Romans chap 7 looking at it as you believe, in the 'historical present tense'. It was difficult to read in that tense, but I did so imagining the 'old' Saul speaking about his past experience of his spiritual battle in wanting strict obedience to the Law to give him life, instead it brought him death (v 10). To even go as far as verse 24, I can still consider his exclamation as one while still struggling to make the Law work for him. But then in verse 25 (not from chapter 8), I see the change in tense to 'present', when the 'new' Paul speaks with great relief from his struggle: "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.": based on the fact that it was only Jesus Christ (Whom he had now & not in the past) Who could deliver him from the certain spiritual destruction ordained by the Law. The "So then" has to refer to him realizing that Jesus was his answer & salvation, something he could never say or do as a strict Jew under the Law.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris, I'll try to add into the ongoing discussion. Let's consider Paul in Romans 7. It appears that Paul starts giving his account of his own past starting in verse 7, as here he starts mentioning "I" as in I had not known sin. He then goes on to tell us his past experiences with sin and the warring within. I do not see a change of historical present until a change seen in Ch. 8 where Paul then begins declaring no condemnation and freedom as a current status.

    Judas may or may not be a great example, so let's stick with Paul instead. He was present when Stephen was stoned, mentioned in Acts 7:58. Acts 8:1 Saul or Paul is mentioned again as consenting to Stephen's death, and having authority to apprehend Christians, sending them to jail, persecuting the Church. Ac. 9, Saul/Paul was converted from sinful to saved. He acknowledged the Lord, and though it's not fully described, Paul repented there. Ac. 9:17 Ananias prayed with Brother Saul who had to be saved to be a spiritual brother, received sight and was filled with the Holy Ghost, sanctification only does this. Paul then begins to preach in vs 20. From now on, Paul no longer took Christians prisoner but taught apn preached about Jesus and salvation from sin. Also note that the Jews that once held Saul in admiration for capturing Christians, now fought against him, and sought to kill him. Salvation and sanctification change people so much that friends of the past look and act differently towards the saved. Paul was feared by the apostles, but later they recognized the changes God had made in Paul's heart and actions. There is a need that others can see the change in a person that is saved.

    Similar to Adam due to my saved and sanctified experience? Yes, excepting Adam and Eve were created sinless and I had to gain sinless life via repentance to be saved and then later to be sanctified to be rid of the inherited sin passed on from Adam's fallen state.

    I'll add more later. Hope this helps some. Good day to all.
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Donna,

    I also believe that we should be led by the Holy Spirit, but I'm not sure if my gut instincts is the Holy Spirit or whether I'm being deceived by a religious spirit because I have only been a believer for less than three years, and also everyone around me thinks that I'm the one in error which doesn't help the situation.

    Thank you for your encouragement and the scriptures that you suggested. I will study them and ask for guidance in prayer.

    God bless you and your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Ss,

    I agree, but feel I will fall into error if I stop going to church because nobody around me are Christians, which already causes problems.

    God bless you and your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Claire - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris,

    Thank you for your words of encouragement. I know that no church is perfect. I left my old church because most people read different bible's and I had concerns about a few things, but when I told my pastor, he just fobbed me off. A couple of my friends from that church had similar experiences with him too. One of them now goes to another church, but the other one is still there. I told the pastor about a guy called Doc Marquis that was raised in an Illuminati family, but became a Christian in 1979 and dedicated his life to expose the truth about "America's Occult Holidays", like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, but he just said that I shouldn't believe everything that I listen to online, and to not to share this info with anyone at church because everyone celebrates them holidays and that they would be offended by it. I had similar experiences when I told him about a guy called Adam Johnson who made a DVD called "King James ? Or 400 Counterfeits ?" but he fobbed me off on this too. I tried to inform him about a few other things too, but then gave up and joined the church that I'm at now. Everyone reads the KJV bible there, so that gave me a bit of peace, but they still celebrate the holidays which concerns me. I have told the pastors there too but they just fob me off too, and told me not to share this info.

    I know what you mean about the bible study needing someone mature in the faith because me and the new woman tried to do our own bible study, but she doesn't know the bible that well, so every time I told her scriptures from the bible, if she didn't agree with it, she would get angry with me. I try to keep my distance from her now because I feel like she's affecting my progress and my well being, and I have enough trouble with this with my mum and my daughter at home being non Christians.

    God bless you and your family.

    Kind Regards

    Claire
  • Meaning of Eunoch on Revelation 12
    This is all I could find for Eunoch:

    E is for empathy, and your consideration for the feelings of others

    U is for unique, your love of life.

    N is for neighborly, friendly to all acquaintances

    O is for ornate, nothing plain here!

    C is for casual, no pretension here.

    H is for hope, the encouragement you give.

    Sweet but non-BIBLICAL

    Mishael
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Claire, I've been following your comments & I agree that this can be a disheartening frustrating experience when you hear preaching that doesn't conform to God's Word or from peoples' negative comments about Bible study groups, etc. No Church will be perfect as they are made up of imperfect people like you & me. There always has to be some leeway given to Church practice & teaching, but if your spirit is troubled by it, then leaving that group is necessary.

    It's a little like the upcoming U.S. elections: Christians supporting both sides will find rights & wrongs in all the parties, but a vote needs to be given to the one they judge best. The other option would be to vote for a minor party (e.g. a Christian/family-based one) which might conform more to one's beliefs & expectations, though realizing that that party will never bring forward the next President. Then the other option is not to vote at all, as all parties to some extent violate the requirements of God. So where does this leave the voter or, similarly, what does the believer do with Churches that don't conform to the Scriptures? If things appear hopeless, then abstain from attending Church until you're able to find another; just as one could do in the political arena. But never neglect your personal time of Bible reading & prayer.

    Bible studies at a Home Group or in Church are important for the more intensive study of the Word but also for enjoying fellowship with one another. As well, one gets support, prayer & counsel when it may be easier to share intimately with those you're close to. Yet, without a mature leader overseeing the Study, these meetings can become breeding grounds for error, for which your Pastor fears. What other Fellowships are in your area/City? You may need to attend a few to decide.
  • Donna Williams - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Claire, I hear your heart and I totally understand. I believe that we as believers should be led by the Holy Spirit and not be under the control of a man or a woman.

    It is okay to question any doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God. There is definitely a problem when we are just sitting and listening to someone who is teaching the Word of God, and are supposed to accept their interpretation of the Bible. In The Acts of the Apostles the Bereans searched the Scriptures for themselves to see what they were hearing was the truth. I believe this is how we are deceived by erroneous doctrine and false beliefs.

    The Bible encourages us to study to show ourselves approved of God.... 2Timothy 2:15 I encourage you to seek the Holy Spirit as to what you should do and not depend on man. To be honest with you I am concerned, this is how cults are started. When the sheep cannot think for themselves and are indoctrinated to think a certain way.

    Again, I say pray and trust the Good Shepherd to lead you. I do believe the correct way to handle this situation is to take whatever questions you have to the one who is teaching the Bible study, to avoid any discord. It is wise not to share your concerns with other members of the congregation that you are a part of.

    I hope that this is a help and comfort to your soul.


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