S Spencer on Jesus our kinsman redeemer page 1 - In Reply on Psalms 91 - 3 years ago
HI Sacha,
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That is a great question and important topic that you are inquiring about, "He chose to have His Son born of a human woman who by her fleshly nature is sinfull ,do you think there might have been a reason for this choice ?" And you also mentioned the seed of the woman which ties to this,
If I'm understanding the question as presented I think the study we are looking for is a study in
( KINSMAN REDEEMER).
Jesus was born of a woman to become our kinsman redeemer.
Galatians 4:4-5. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Hebrews 2:9-11.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Roman 8:3.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son " IN THE ''''LIKENESS"'' of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Revelation 5:2-5.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Hey Carlton good to hear from you, I read your posts, well done. Nowhere or no how did any part of my post be in any way saying Jesus was not holy. I am sorry you felt it did. Jesus has always been holy. Jesus came in the flesh and was sacrificed for the sins of many and put in the grave and was resurrected the third day on the Feast of First Fruits.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I said that Jesus was in the same flesh as we because if He was not He would not have been affected in the same way we are. He had to be tempted the same as we are, if not He would have not fulfilled the prophets and the law. He was as much flesh as me or you but he lived on this earth sinless and a perfect life fulfilling his Father's will for us. That is what's so amazing, He left the glory He had in heaven to do that for us.
Hey Adam, I hope everything is well, My words are not as elegant as some on here. First, my meaning, the Law of Moses given by God, no man has ever fulfilled and no one has been sin-free. If Jesus came not being able to sin, and He could not be tempted, He would have not lived under the law because He was above the Law. Jesus did not sin He was perfect. Jesus lived in the flesh under the same conditions as we are in sinful flesh. That does not even hint He died for his own sins. He did not have any sins.
It's like if you and I had to go through an obstacle course and I was able to go to the finish line without going through the course, how could I say I finished perfectly. Satan would be in front of God calling foul it doesn't count.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jesus in the flesh was tempted his entire fleshly life on earth even 40 days and 40 nights from Satan.
I said Jesus willfully died for us, if His body had not died and placed in the tomb and God resurrected Him on the third day we have no hope.
I do not remember saying anything about soul/spirit or an afterlife that was not in this discussion.
Hello Ron, What holy thing has been born of a woman from Adam until Jesus?
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" Luke 1:35
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:14
"I am the bread of life.. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.."
I am the bread which came down from Heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" John 6:48-51
Hi Ron, I agree with some of what you said, except for the following assumptions:
"If Jesus did not have the sinful flesh that came from the first Adam and Jesus was incapable of sin what did He fulfill?"
I don't believe the above assumption is true. The Bible clearly says Jesus was without sin (perfect), so why even flirt with the idea that He wasn't? Where does that idea even come from?
Jesus didn't come to die for His own sins, but for yours, for mine, for all human beings past, present and future. Why assume it has anything to do with Jesus' doing something wrong? It wasn't about Him atoning for His sin, but yours! That's what makes it extra special and loving- He loved you that much to give you that gift that frankly He had no business doing.
The other assumptions I noticed was this, which I also don't believe is true:
"God cannot be tempted, Jesus was, God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us."
First, what do you mean by God cannot be tempted- do you mean God won't give into temptation or is impossible for a tempter like satan to tempt Him? Human beings are tempted by satan as a normal part of being human- so of course Jesus was tempted. It's possible you got this idea from: James 1:13, but it says God cannot be tempted with evil. It doesn't say that if God becomes a man that satan can't attempt to tempt him. This is likely at the core of this misunderstanding. Of course the Bible says clearly that Jesus is God in John 1:1 and many other verses.
Second, you wrote: "God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us"
I agree with the first part that God can't die. But then you wrote that Jesus died for us. Yes, as a human being, not as God. His spirit didn't die. So, this sounds like it's conflating 2 different things and assuming that Jesus doesn't have a soul or spirit or that there's no afterlife? Since all human beings have a soul/spirit and an afterlife, and since God the Father is a spirit, of course God the Son has this too which didn't die. God bless.
Chris, Beautiful posts great information, just one thing. God gave his only begotten Son for us, the same he asked Abraham to do but God went through. The law and the prophets, Jesus came to fulfill and only flesh, same as our sinful flesh could fulfill it and pay the penalty. If Jesus did not have the sinful flesh that came from the first Adam and Jesus was incapable of sin what did He fulfill?
Romans.8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
We seeing Jesus the same as we having the same feelings and the same temptations as we do, but He did not sin. This shows us He is worthy to follow and be our high priest and King.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Sinful flesh does not cause the blemishes it is the sin that one does. Jesus' sinless perfect life was the perfect sacrifice. God cannot be tempted, Jesus was, God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us. God sent Jesus and then the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus for any that will believe and follow Him.
Love your posts very helpful, keep up Gods work, Ron
Jesus needed to live a normal human existence, identifying in every way with His people, with their sufferings, their joys, hopes, doubts, sicknesses, etc. And He could only do this if He came as a Babe, growing up as a young man & fulfilling the Will of God in life & death. ( Hebrews 2:16-18). And even though the people saw Him only as the son of Joseph & Mary ( Matthew 13:55,56), they should have known the Scriptures that spoke of His coming ( Isaiah 7:14; Daniel 9:24-26; Isaiah chaps 52 & 53; Zechariah 9:9, 12:10; & many others).
To your other questions: "what was Christ's victory over?" Ultimately, He was victorious over death & hell; by implication: over sin's penalty & over Satan's power to all who believed. 2 Timothy 1:10; 1 Corinthians 15:25,26 & Revelation 20:14.
And "how did He achieve this victory?" Only by the Cross. What seemed to the world & to Satan as the final death blow to Jesus to be rid of Him, in fact became the very means of salvation to all who would believe on Him. Jesus' resurrection was God's glorious proclamation of His acceptance that sin's price was now fully paid & that all who put their trust in Him would be cleansed by Jesus' Blood, justified, accepted & glorified ( Romans 8:30).
Hi Sacha, I believe your first question had to do with "the reason for God to have His Son born of a sinful human, when He could have brought Him into the World in another way". So I did answer your question, though probably not in the way you expected; I specifically wanted to show that the "sinful flesh" of Mary wasn't an issue because Mary didn't contribute to His Birth, which meant that Jesus was perfect in every way: without a sin nature & without sin. He was born in total purity just as the first Adam was created in purity, but Jesus did not sin as Adam did. And this opposes your understanding that Jesus was born with sinful flesh (you wrote this in another comment).
So depending on how you understood/accepted/rejected my comment, I could then elaborate further. So I'll continue. Your question: "why couldn't Jesus come to Earth in another way?" Ultimately, God has the answer to this though we can offer our thoughts:
Jesus was sent primarily to God's chosen people, Israel, for their blessing, benefit & salvation. God had planned this in eternity that through His chosen seed (Seth) & succeeding generations of Noah, Shem, Abraham, Jacob, Judah, David, etc., that the Messiah would come.
If God placed His Messiah on Earth from nothing (i.e. just zapped Him onto Israeli soil) how would Israel respond to His appearance. Knowing that in Eastern cultures a person's lineage is vitally important for many reasons, someone who came & said that He had no descendants but just came from Heaven, would have been totally unacceptable. As it was, most of the people rejected Jesus in His day, but not to have descendants one could hardly imagine how they would have viewed Him & would have cast Him away as a mad man.
Chris ,you are correct ,this is a very important matter ,i didnt notice in your post if you answered my question or not . I would like to ask another ,what was Christs victory over ?And how did he achieve this victory ? Sorry thats two questions ,three if you count the previous one .
If Mary contributed to the conception of the Babe, then you're right, the Babe would have inherited her sin nature. If this were so, then Jesus would have not qualified to be the Lamb of God as He would be imperfect. Is a human baby imperfect? Yes. The sin nature is there but since sin has not been committed at that stage, there is no condemnation against it - but that baby would never fulfil God's requirements to be a sacrifice for sin.
But Jesus, as a Babe, as a Man, could, because He had no sin nature in spite of many deliberate attempts by Satan to make that happen. Had Jesus succumbed, He would have failed as God's Sacrifice, we would still be in our sins & God would have no other Sacrifice option to give. Why? Because He gave the very best - HIMSELF. Such is the demonstration & proof of Divine Love: in the giving of oneself for the salvation of the helpless & hopeless, lost in sin.
How we can praise Jesus today & always that for our sakes He remained unstained by the sin nature & sin and was "obedient (to the Father right up) unto death, even the death of the cross". May the Lord enable you Sacha in every way as you meditate on His Word on this very important matter of belief.
Would the Love of God for sinners be seen in creating another human or animal (though perfect) to represent Him in sacrifice & prove His Love? It would be like saying, 'I don't want to risk my life to go out to save the drowning man; I would rather find another to do it for me'. Where is the true Love here?
Rather, for John 15:13 to reveal Jesus' Mind, we can only understand that Jesus was the One Who delighted to accomplish His Father's Will as a Man: John 6:38; Philippians 2:6-8.
So to the question: who is this Jesus & was He linked to Mary by blood thereby inheriting her sin nature? From the Scriptures just given, we see that Jesus is inextricably connected to God & came down from Heaven as God sent out His Word to be made human ( John 1:1,14). Can God (His Word made flesh) be found with a sin nature? To answer that, I referred you to 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. Here we saw that God's first creation (Adam) is of the Earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven" & He is referred to as the last Adam.
So God had determined two separate creations. The first one was created perfect but was deceived & sinned. The second One was created perfect, not from dust, but by the Spirit who took the Word & placed it in Mary to be brought into the World not as a man formed from & lying on the ground but as a Babe formed by the Spirit & issued through a woman.
Thank you Sacha - I welcome all responses, as whatever is shared, unless completely in opposition to God's Word, can be useful for our knowledge & spiritual growth in the things & ways of God. So I agree, God did choose to have His Son born through a human, even though all humans are imputed with a sinful nature. And yes, I believe there was a reason for doing so.
At the foundation of Jesus' arrival & His Sacrifice, lies the unfathomable Love of God for mankind: John 3:16 & Romans 5:8 attest to it. To His people, Israel, that Love extended to the institution of the Law & the sacrificial system, so that through its performance, God's Anger against their sin was appeased & His Love declared in providing them a way out: a blood sacrifice was needed (through a pure spotless animal) so that life was paid for life (a substitutionary payment: Mark 10:45; 1 Peter 3:18). But that was for a time until Jesus came to fulfil the Will of God His Father ( Hebrews 10:5-10).
Since the animal sacrifices were temporary because of their inability to fully address the sin issue, they had to be a continual sacrifice, they gave no relief to man's consciences & never fulfilled God's eternal Plan, so at "the due time" God sent His Son to fully meet those shortcomings. God could have sent a specially created Lamb to fulfil this work or as some believe, a specially created Human to lay down His Life for sinners. So why didn't God do this?
Ultimately, the reason for this is in the Mind of God, but no doubt His Love for all, His requirement for a Perfect Sacrifice that fulfilled all His Demands & that there would be no further need nor better option to accomplish that Will, are a few of my thoughts. John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Was not Jesus intimating that the fullest expression of Love is seen in one's unreserved willingness to sacrifice his own life because of the love for another?
Hi Chris ,i am not used to teaching and preaching etc so please forgive me if i sound a bit brusque as i promise i dont mean to ,im just trying to stay on my point and not allow myself to wander ,i have heard more than one person on this site say that God is able to do anything and i whole heartedly agree , i also belive that everything God does He has a reason for doing it ,when i look at the earth and the life on it and the planets etc i see precision ,attention to detail ,complexity and beautifull perfection ,when i read about the tabernacle and solomons temple and the temple in ezekiel i see precision and perfection and details beyond my imagination ,when i read the laws of sacrifices and offerings i see very definate procedure and harmony ,God gives the children of Israel very specific instructions as to how they may approach Him ,He gives us specific instructions also ,so yes of course God can do anything though it seems to me that God isnt ever random ,it seems to me that God creates complex beauty every where and in an orderly fashion ,He could have created Jesus in a silmilar way to Adam ,He could have created Jesus as a fully formed adult ,full of the Holy Spirit ,out of the sand in the desert in Israel ,He could have created Jesus from a stone ,He chose to have His Son born of a human woman who by her fleshly nature is sinfull ,do you think there might have been a reason for this choice ?
Thank you Sacha for those references, which I looked up - very precious indeed. However, it seems that you have given me those references in respect to my answer to Neil, which answer of course has since been deleted.
When finding the common denominator in those verses you gave, it seems that you are trying to alert me to the fact that Jesus had come in the flesh, in the "likeness of sinful flesh". To this (that He came in the flesh, i.e. as a human) is what I fully believe & have written much about. The point/question that Neil made was "did Jesus inherit the sin nature from Mary?" He wasn't questioning that Jesus was Human (the Son of Man) but whether the sin nature that is in all of us from Adam, was also the inescapable lot of the Man Jesus?
To this I replied (& which you saw before the comment was removed), was that I believed that Jesus was conceived entirely of the Holy Spirit without human contribution. That is, that Mary was the vehicle (the means) by which the Father would bring forth His Son into the World, in fulfilment of the prophecy that went before Him. Is this what you're questioning, Sacha? Then I would welcome your thoughts on Jesus' conception & how you would arrive at it. Just a clue: 1 Corinthians 15:45-47.
And of course, thoughts from others, whether Jesus' birth was without a sin nature, or with a sin nature (i.e. His Nature was already fallen by virtue of Mary but He did not sin like us, as He resisted every temptation from Satan & of the flesh)?
I'm sorry Neil, I had given you a fairly detailed response, but for some unknown reason (at least not declared to me) it has been removed. So I won't try to repeat the answer again here lest this one too suffers the same fate.
This is from the heart. Some here believe Paul preached "once saved always saved" or something. Paul wrote Hebrews:
Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ through His word. Receive Him. Follow Him. Repent from the sins of this world and of the flesh.
In what Blessed Book of The Holy Bible does it read after JESUS' Resurrection He told His Disciples not to be sad that He would only be with them for a little while longer. For He anointed them with The Holy Spirit and His Power so they would now have The Same Miraculous Power to Heal The Sick , Raise the dead, and Cast out demons asvJesus Did and even greater. Additionally, Jesus will be with them to the end of time.
About sin-acknowledging my sinful, rebellious hopeless reprobate state before The Holy Righteous God
About Jesus-acknowledging that Jesus paid the penalty for my sin in His death, burial and resurrection
One interesting fact that differentiates the Protestant and Roman Catholic view of REPENTANCE, is in the Douay-Rheims Bible (DRB) translation.
"And saying, REPENT ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mat 3:2 KJV
"And saying: DO PENANCE: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mat 3:2 DRB
"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for REPENTANCE:" Mat 3:8 KJV
"Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of PENANCE." Mat 3:8 DRB
In contrast to REPENTANCE, PENANCE is self effort in that "he who sins must repent AND as far as possible MAKE REPARATION to Divine justice." Catholic Encyclopedia
it is a voluntary and sincere change in the mind of the sinner, causing him to turn from his sin, it should be noted here I said sin (singular) and not sins (plural). True repentance involves the turning from one specific sin, the previous rejection of Christ. Jesus spelled this out very clearly for us in John chapter 16. It is expedient for you that I go away: I will send the Comforter unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." As you can see, "repentance" is not being sorrow for your sins; it is the Godly sorrow that causes a person to Change his mind (Repent). picture this: a man does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, someone tells him the Gospel that Paul preached to the Gentiles; the man is sorry he has rejected Christ, he repents (Changes his mind), and Believes that Christ died for his sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose from the dead three days later, and receives Christ as savior the second he believes it And is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
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That is a great question and important topic that you are inquiring about, "He chose to have His Son born of a human woman who by her fleshly nature is sinfull ,do you think there might have been a reason for this choice ?" And you also mentioned the seed of the woman which ties to this,
If I'm understanding the question as presented I think the study we are looking for is a study in
( KINSMAN REDEEMER).
Jesus was born of a woman to become our kinsman redeemer.
Galatians 4:4-5. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Hebrews 2:9-11.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Roman 8:3.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son " IN THE ''''LIKENESS"'' of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Revelation 5:2-5.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I said that Jesus was in the same flesh as we because if He was not He would not have been affected in the same way we are. He had to be tempted the same as we are, if not He would have not fulfilled the prophets and the law. He was as much flesh as me or you but he lived on this earth sinless and a perfect life fulfilling his Father's will for us. That is what's so amazing, He left the glory He had in heaven to do that for us.
I hope that makes sense, Ron
It's like if you and I had to go through an obstacle course and I was able to go to the finish line without going through the course, how could I say I finished perfectly. Satan would be in front of God calling foul it doesn't count.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jesus in the flesh was tempted his entire fleshly life on earth even 40 days and 40 nights from Satan.
I said Jesus willfully died for us, if His body had not died and placed in the tomb and God resurrected Him on the third day we have no hope.
I do not remember saying anything about soul/spirit or an afterlife that was not in this discussion.
God bless you, Ron
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" Luke 1:35
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:14
"I am the bread of life.. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.."
I am the bread which came down from Heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" John 6:48-51
"He can not deny himself" 2 Timothy 2:13
Carleton
"If Jesus did not have the sinful flesh that came from the first Adam and Jesus was incapable of sin what did He fulfill?"
I don't believe the above assumption is true. The Bible clearly says Jesus was without sin (perfect), so why even flirt with the idea that He wasn't? Where does that idea even come from?
Jesus didn't come to die for His own sins, but for yours, for mine, for all human beings past, present and future. Why assume it has anything to do with Jesus' doing something wrong? It wasn't about Him atoning for His sin, but yours! That's what makes it extra special and loving- He loved you that much to give you that gift that frankly He had no business doing.
The other assumptions I noticed was this, which I also don't believe is true:
"God cannot be tempted, Jesus was, God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us."
First, what do you mean by God cannot be tempted- do you mean God won't give into temptation or is impossible for a tempter like satan to tempt Him? Human beings are tempted by satan as a normal part of being human- so of course Jesus was tempted. It's possible you got this idea from: James 1:13, but it says God cannot be tempted with evil. It doesn't say that if God becomes a man that satan can't attempt to tempt him. This is likely at the core of this misunderstanding. Of course the Bible says clearly that Jesus is God in John 1:1 and many other verses.
Second, you wrote: "God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us"
I agree with the first part that God can't die. But then you wrote that Jesus died for us. Yes, as a human being, not as God. His spirit didn't die. So, this sounds like it's conflating 2 different things and assuming that Jesus doesn't have a soul or spirit or that there's no afterlife? Since all human beings have a soul/spirit and an afterlife, and since God the Father is a spirit, of course God the Son has this too which didn't die. God bless.
Romans.8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
We seeing Jesus the same as we having the same feelings and the same temptations as we do, but He did not sin. This shows us He is worthy to follow and be our high priest and King.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Sinful flesh does not cause the blemishes it is the sin that one does. Jesus' sinless perfect life was the perfect sacrifice. God cannot be tempted, Jesus was, God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us. God sent Jesus and then the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus for any that will believe and follow Him.
Love your posts very helpful, keep up Gods work, Ron
Jesus needed to live a normal human existence, identifying in every way with His people, with their sufferings, their joys, hopes, doubts, sicknesses, etc. And He could only do this if He came as a Babe, growing up as a young man & fulfilling the Will of God in life & death. ( Hebrews 2:16-18). And even though the people saw Him only as the son of Joseph & Mary ( Matthew 13:55,56), they should have known the Scriptures that spoke of His coming ( Isaiah 7:14; Daniel 9:24-26; Isaiah chaps 52 & 53; Zechariah 9:9, 12:10; & many others).
To your other questions: "what was Christ's victory over?" Ultimately, He was victorious over death & hell; by implication: over sin's penalty & over Satan's power to all who believed. 2 Timothy 1:10; 1 Corinthians 15:25,26 & Revelation 20:14.
And "how did He achieve this victory?" Only by the Cross. What seemed to the world & to Satan as the final death blow to Jesus to be rid of Him, in fact became the very means of salvation to all who would believe on Him. Jesus' resurrection was God's glorious proclamation of His acceptance that sin's price was now fully paid & that all who put their trust in Him would be cleansed by Jesus' Blood, justified, accepted & glorified ( Romans 8:30).
Hi Sacha, I believe your first question had to do with "the reason for God to have His Son born of a sinful human, when He could have brought Him into the World in another way". So I did answer your question, though probably not in the way you expected; I specifically wanted to show that the "sinful flesh" of Mary wasn't an issue because Mary didn't contribute to His Birth, which meant that Jesus was perfect in every way: without a sin nature & without sin. He was born in total purity just as the first Adam was created in purity, but Jesus did not sin as Adam did. And this opposes your understanding that Jesus was born with sinful flesh (you wrote this in another comment).
So depending on how you understood/accepted/rejected my comment, I could then elaborate further. So I'll continue. Your question: "why couldn't Jesus come to Earth in another way?" Ultimately, God has the answer to this though we can offer our thoughts:
Jesus was sent primarily to God's chosen people, Israel, for their blessing, benefit & salvation. God had planned this in eternity that through His chosen seed (Seth) & succeeding generations of Noah, Shem, Abraham, Jacob, Judah, David, etc., that the Messiah would come.
If God placed His Messiah on Earth from nothing (i.e. just zapped Him onto Israeli soil) how would Israel respond to His appearance. Knowing that in Eastern cultures a person's lineage is vitally important for many reasons, someone who came & said that He had no descendants but just came from Heaven, would have been totally unacceptable. As it was, most of the people rejected Jesus in His day, but not to have descendants one could hardly imagine how they would have viewed Him & would have cast Him away as a mad man.
If Mary contributed to the conception of the Babe, then you're right, the Babe would have inherited her sin nature. If this were so, then Jesus would have not qualified to be the Lamb of God as He would be imperfect. Is a human baby imperfect? Yes. The sin nature is there but since sin has not been committed at that stage, there is no condemnation against it - but that baby would never fulfil God's requirements to be a sacrifice for sin.
But Jesus, as a Babe, as a Man, could, because He had no sin nature in spite of many deliberate attempts by Satan to make that happen. Had Jesus succumbed, He would have failed as God's Sacrifice, we would still be in our sins & God would have no other Sacrifice option to give. Why? Because He gave the very best - HIMSELF. Such is the demonstration & proof of Divine Love: in the giving of oneself for the salvation of the helpless & hopeless, lost in sin.
How we can praise Jesus today & always that for our sakes He remained unstained by the sin nature & sin and was "obedient (to the Father right up) unto death, even the death of the cross". May the Lord enable you Sacha in every way as you meditate on His Word on this very important matter of belief.
Would the Love of God for sinners be seen in creating another human or animal (though perfect) to represent Him in sacrifice & prove His Love? It would be like saying, 'I don't want to risk my life to go out to save the drowning man; I would rather find another to do it for me'. Where is the true Love here?
Rather, for John 15:13 to reveal Jesus' Mind, we can only understand that Jesus was the One Who delighted to accomplish His Father's Will as a Man: John 6:38; Philippians 2:6-8.
So to the question: who is this Jesus & was He linked to Mary by blood thereby inheriting her sin nature? From the Scriptures just given, we see that Jesus is inextricably connected to God & came down from Heaven as God sent out His Word to be made human ( John 1:1,14). Can God (His Word made flesh) be found with a sin nature? To answer that, I referred you to 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. Here we saw that God's first creation (Adam) is of the Earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven" & He is referred to as the last Adam.
So God had determined two separate creations. The first one was created perfect but was deceived & sinned. The second One was created perfect, not from dust, but by the Spirit who took the Word & placed it in Mary to be brought into the World not as a man formed from & lying on the ground but as a Babe formed by the Spirit & issued through a woman.
Thank you Sacha - I welcome all responses, as whatever is shared, unless completely in opposition to God's Word, can be useful for our knowledge & spiritual growth in the things & ways of God. So I agree, God did choose to have His Son born through a human, even though all humans are imputed with a sinful nature. And yes, I believe there was a reason for doing so.
At the foundation of Jesus' arrival & His Sacrifice, lies the unfathomable Love of God for mankind: John 3:16 & Romans 5:8 attest to it. To His people, Israel, that Love extended to the institution of the Law & the sacrificial system, so that through its performance, God's Anger against their sin was appeased & His Love declared in providing them a way out: a blood sacrifice was needed (through a pure spotless animal) so that life was paid for life (a substitutionary payment: Mark 10:45; 1 Peter 3:18). But that was for a time until Jesus came to fulfil the Will of God His Father ( Hebrews 10:5-10).
Since the animal sacrifices were temporary because of their inability to fully address the sin issue, they had to be a continual sacrifice, they gave no relief to man's consciences & never fulfilled God's eternal Plan, so at "the due time" God sent His Son to fully meet those shortcomings. God could have sent a specially created Lamb to fulfil this work or as some believe, a specially created Human to lay down His Life for sinners. So why didn't God do this?
Ultimately, the reason for this is in the Mind of God, but no doubt His Love for all, His requirement for a Perfect Sacrifice that fulfilled all His Demands & that there would be no further need nor better option to accomplish that Will, are a few of my thoughts. John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Was not Jesus intimating that the fullest expression of Love is seen in one's unreserved willingness to sacrifice his own life because of the love for another?
When finding the common denominator in those verses you gave, it seems that you are trying to alert me to the fact that Jesus had come in the flesh, in the "likeness of sinful flesh". To this (that He came in the flesh, i.e. as a human) is what I fully believe & have written much about. The point/question that Neil made was "did Jesus inherit the sin nature from Mary?" He wasn't questioning that Jesus was Human (the Son of Man) but whether the sin nature that is in all of us from Adam, was also the inescapable lot of the Man Jesus?
To this I replied (& which you saw before the comment was removed), was that I believed that Jesus was conceived entirely of the Holy Spirit without human contribution. That is, that Mary was the vehicle (the means) by which the Father would bring forth His Son into the World, in fulfilment of the prophecy that went before Him. Is this what you're questioning, Sacha? Then I would welcome your thoughts on Jesus' conception & how you would arrive at it. Just a clue: 1 Corinthians 15:45-47.
And of course, thoughts from others, whether Jesus' birth was without a sin nature, or with a sin nature (i.e. His Nature was already fallen by virtue of Mary but He did not sin like us, as He resisted every temptation from Satan & of the flesh)?
Can you elaborate a little on what you don't understand, I'm sure someone can help. Thank you
Here are a couple links to the verses I think you are seeking:
Matthew 28:18-20
( Mark 16:14-20
( John 16
( John 20:21-22
Hope that helps. God Bless.
Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ through His word. Receive Him. Follow Him. Repent from the sins of this world and of the flesh.
God Bless everyone.
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Hope this helps
I agree. To REPENT is to change your mind...
About sin-acknowledging my sinful, rebellious hopeless reprobate state before The Holy Righteous God
About Jesus-acknowledging that Jesus paid the penalty for my sin in His death, burial and resurrection
One interesting fact that differentiates the Protestant and Roman Catholic view of REPENTANCE, is in the Douay-Rheims Bible (DRB) translation.
"And saying, REPENT ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mat 3:2 KJV
"And saying: DO PENANCE: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mat 3:2 DRB
"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for REPENTANCE:" Mat 3:8 KJV
"Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of PENANCE." Mat 3:8 DRB
In contrast to REPENTANCE, PENANCE is self effort in that "he who sins must repent AND as far as possible MAKE REPARATION to Divine justice." Catholic Encyclopedia
it is a voluntary and sincere change in the mind of the sinner, causing him to turn from his sin, it should be noted here I said sin (singular) and not sins (plural). True repentance involves the turning from one specific sin, the previous rejection of Christ. Jesus spelled this out very clearly for us in John chapter 16. It is expedient for you that I go away: I will send the Comforter unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." As you can see, "repentance" is not being sorrow for your sins; it is the Godly sorrow that causes a person to Change his mind (Repent). picture this: a man does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, someone tells him the Gospel that Paul preached to the Gentiles; the man is sorry he has rejected Christ, he repents (Changes his mind), and Believes that Christ died for his sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose from the dead three days later, and receives Christ as savior the second he believes it And is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.