Brother Richard,may the SPIRIT IN US; CHRIST IN US, grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
You are correct THE ANGEL (of the Spirit; or Lord) is Christ. This ONE TRUTH is what is so hard for the mind of the flesh to understand. THERE IS ONE SPIRIT; many bodies only one Spirit. THE SPIRIT; OR SEED. Jesus was the FIRST to sprout from this seed (SPIRIT) the first man. Now with a body; but everything else IN THE FULLNESS OF GOD (SPIRIT). His words were from the WORD; because there is ONLY ONE WORD; HIS WORKS WERE from the only one who can do the works. Christ was sent to destroy the works of the devil. The devil says that that it is up to man to do the works (a murderer and liar from the beginning; when Adam was given a mind and body of flesh, this wisdom of the world began. Eve disobeyed God because SHE DID NOT BELIEVE GOD). WE TOO ARE BORN OF THE SEED; when this worldly wisdom is destroyed and replaced with THIS ONE WISDOM. Every ones words will be from THE WORD and every ones WORKS will be from GOD. There will be many bodies IN THE FULLNESS OF GOD.
Ephesians 2:22 In whom also we are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
Christ has a body in which THE FULLNESS OF GOD DWELLS; we are THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we ALL come in to the unity of the faith (of Jesus Christ), and the KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, unto a perfect man, unto the measure and stature OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST (GOD).
I just thought I would state this detail of a verse that came to light.
In Colossians 1:19. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;
As this is after speaking of Jesus Christ being the image of the invisible God and by Him and for Him were all things created. You may note that "the Father" is in italics in verse 19. Because in the Textus Receptus it is not there. It would actually read something like "for in Him it was pleasing that all the fullness dwelt".
Jesus Christ is more than a man and He existed before He was born. He was in on Creation. I can't understand how some would state that all the Words in His mouth were of His Father. Of coarse I understand the Father is in Him and giving Him all His Words to speak. Though you can easily see Jesus Christ is His own person with His own soul. Speaking to and of the Father constantly. Jesus Christ is most definitely ONE with the Father and just as much God though the Son. He is at the right Hand of God. A couple more verses stating He existed before He was born: John 3:12-13, John 6:38, John 5:45-47, John 6:62, John 8:58.
Maybe just to bring up the Angel of the LORD in the OT. Just one instance is Exodus 23:21. Not just a regular angel or even an archangel. How in Joshua 5:13-15. Where a Host of YHWH tells Joshua to take his shoes off for he is on Holy ground. As in Exodus 3:1-6. Again said to be an Angel of the LORD which is then stated as YHWH. God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Where Moses is told to take His shoes off. I would think because where YHWH is, is Holy ground.
I believe the Angel of the Lord in the OT is the pre incarnate Jesus Christ. Could I be wrong? Yes. As I have many other things to prove YHWH is not just one as normal people may perceive. Almighty God is ONE period.
I really don't know why people are trying to attack the deity of Christ. One day we will all have to stand before Him.
I definitely believe there will be animals in heaven. Jesus will be on a horse and I don't believe He will be the only one with an animal. Billy Graham believed it too.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the BIRDS of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye HAVE NEED of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
No offense, but I think Adams first job was naming animals: and God likes critters too. Be kind to animals. We're commanded not to be cruel to animals. I have faith to believe heaven is full of all kinds of praise and worship.
I get up before the birds in the morning. They are the first ones to lift their voices in song. Trees lift their branches to praise God too. Listen to a song on YouTube: How many and Wonderful by John Michael Talbot. You'll sing too :)
Are there going to be animals in heaven? My daughter says no, and she says we remember nothing once we're in Heaven. Is God not going to take care of ours pets?
Hello Denise. In the 'ideal' situation, where both husband & wife are mature & responsible people, hold joint financial accounts, are transparent in their financial dealings, & as a first course of action, given to discuss such matters & their possible ramifications to remaining resources, I agree, that they both should discuss it & make a joint agreed decision on such a large expense.
Quite often though, one spouse may not be quite 'savvy' in financial matters & would entrust that responsibility to the other spouse, which could work out well. And I suppose, when you write, 'a substantial amount of money', that could be in reference to the money you already have available, whether a large or small amount. If your husband is refusing to discuss this matter with you, is he prone to making other decisions without your knowledge or involvement? Are his financial decisions leaving you & your family in hardship? You may then need to get other help if he is agreeable & prepared to go that route. I know of couples who have been forced to hold separate secret bank accounts, simply to preserve funds so that the other spouse can't get access to them & destroy their livelihood. But this hopefully, is not your situation.
I always discuss all important, out of the ordinary, financial matters with my wife - I believe that is the correct, prudent & loving way to deal with it & all matters that require mutual consideration & consent.
Richard in Christ thanks, maybe less or better wording would have been better but Jesus had to have the ability to sin and be judged by the law and found perfect and spotless, He overcame. Therefore, He had the authority and the ability to fill the terms of the contract and do away with the old and confirm the new. Thanks for the advice when discussions complete a circle, you go no further forward and cause harm. Silence and prayer open doors once given the key.
Chris, thanks for your reply. I agree there is no good in us, maybe I pushed the issue on the flesh. The Bible shows us the birth of Jesus and a few years after and then a glimpse at around 12 years old. Next, He comes as the Messiah around 30 years old. Jesus lived his life without any sin. Most of the New Testament covers Jesus as the Messiah/ Christ. The main thing I was saying regardless of the flesh the Son of God was in, He had to have the ability to sin and be judged by the law and found spotless, so when Jesus was crucified Jesus faced the same first death as we will, but death had no hold on Him. Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law.
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Romans.8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Hi Ron ,hope you dont mind me butting my head in ! Christ represents the two Israels ,Israel in the flesh ,the Jews ,the natural branches and he had to ,he is of the Jews ,salvation is of the Jews ,he is Marys biological Son in every sense ,he also represents us ,sprirtual Israel ,Christians who are born again of the Holy Spirit ! Not quite as literally as Jesus was ,we have biological fathers but we are baptized into his death and resurected when we are submerged in the waters of baptism and we are cleansed by these waters and born again of the Holy Spirit and grafted in . Pure perfection .
S Spencer Restitution of all things - In Reply on Psalms 91 - 3 years ago
Thanks Earl!.
That Made me think of "The Restitution of all things""
Acts 3:18-21.
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
It's Interesting I think the Kinsman Redeemer is also the revenger of blood also.
But as a Interesting side note,
There's three places sought out to find a ""Man"" that was Worthy to Redeem what some Scholars call the title deed of the Earth, "Seal Book written on both sides"
( Here we are in Revelation ch 5 and the tribulation have not even started and we see ""Man"" Sought out IN HEAVEN!! Not only that suggest we'll go to Heaven but also it seems like the RAPTURE has already taken place!!!)
Revelation 5:3. AND NO MAN IN HEAVEN, NOR IN EARTH, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
I tend to see our human flesh as totally corrupt, save for the redemptive work of our Saviour & renewed spirits to live above that corruption. I just can't see Jesus having that flesh, which he would have, if Mary contributed to his conception. But if he did have that flesh (even though never sinning), the corrupt sin nature in Him (from Mary) would preclude Him from being an acceptable Sacrifice - He could no longer be called the "Last Adam" sent from God. Every blessing Ron.
Thank you for your reply, Ron - much appreciated. If I could just address a couple of your points:
a. "If Jesus did not have the sinful flesh that came from the first Adam and Jesus was incapable of sin what did He fulfill?" You clearly referred to Matthew 5:17. Using the Greek words for 'abolish & fulfil', their meanings are: abolish = to destroy, abrogate, or to deny Divine Authority. And 'fulfil' = to complete, fill up what was predicted, accomplish what was intended by it.
When we read it as given, then we see that the Lord, in His 'sinless' condition, could indeed fulfil the Law, because His coming was not to prove His ability to be obedient to the Law but was for the purpose to bring the Law to its planned & proper completion. And this He did as the One Who not only was the Word of God (as the Word/Law/Prophecies) given to Israel, but also Who came now in human form (that Word made Flesh) to bring the Law to finality by His death, resurrection & bringing in of a better Covenant ( Hebrews 8:6,7).
b. Romans 8:3. "in the likeness of sinful flesh". Many look at this phrase as supporting the belief that Jesus had sinful flesh as we have. If that were so, then he would have the sin nature in Him as 'sinful flesh' speaks of that, in one respect. In the other respect, it could also mean that Jesus came in human flesh, resembling (likeness of) sinful flesh that he partook of flesh, or the nature of man, but without any of its sinful propensities or desires. Why would that be? Because the sin nature, which is common to man, was not found in Him. Satan's great desire was to replicate what he did to the first Adam - but the last Adam withstood him disallowing sin to enter thereby imputing the sin nature.
As I don't want to get in between you and Adams discussion. I just wanted to note one thing that I have read of in the Scriptures. Satan can tempt anyone, even God, as shown in the beginning of the book of Job. Where the sons of God(Holy angels) came to present themselves before the Lord and satan was there. Of coarse satan thinks he can get people to turn against God. Though God is always ahead of the devil. As Jesus Christ was(on earth) and is always also.
He actually temps Him twice. Once in Job 1:6-12. Then again pushing further in Job 2:1-6. He wanted to get Job to curse God. Though he fails as usual.
Maybe a way to subdue one thing you and Adam are conversing about. With "sin nature" in Jesus Christ. I believe He was part man(from Mary) and part God(from our Father in Heaven). So my answer to if He had a sin nature or not would be "yes and no". As I don't think many would really take that as an answer to that question though that is how I perceive it. Jesus Christ was like no other being that ever walked this earth.
Have a peaceful conversation my brothers in Christ.
I am not trying to intrude in your conversation, but reading your post, I felt inclined to share something with you about your statement "I can't get my head around why Jesus would tell Mary not to touch him."
John Chapter 20 tells us that this was right after Jesus rose from the tomb. When Mary first saw Jesus, she thought He was the gardener. But after hearing His voice, she realized it was Jesus and she grabbed onto him. And Jesus said unto her, "Touch me not."
Now it is very interesting what the text says. This is one of those instances where the English text doesn't help us out much. We read Jesus saying don't touch me, and it's like what's that all about? First of all, the word "touch" is the word HAPTO, and it means to fasten. It doesn't mean to touch as in "Don't touch me, stay away from me!" It means don't fasten yourself to me. It is a Present Imperative in the Greek text which indicates that she is already doing it. She is holding on tight and not going to let go. Jesus is not saying don't touch me. He's saying stop clinging to me.
As a matter of fact, in Matthew 28:9, Matthew tells us that she had a death grip on His ankles. She was not going to let Him out of her sight again! So He wasn't telling her "Don't touch me." He was saying let go, don't cling to me, stop clinging to me.
And there was a reason for it, He says in John 20:17, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: In other words, He is saying, and you see, here is where the changeover comes. Here's where the ministry comes in.
He has now revealed Himself as the resurrected one to Mary, and she's got this grip on Him like I'm never going to let you out of my sight again, and He is telling her, "You have to let go because I have not yet gone to the Father."
This is not going to be a physical relationship where you can see me and hear me. It's going to be by faith. So it is interesting!
I hope this might give you a better understanding of why Jesus made that statement.
Thank you Ron, God Bless our willingness to understand the depths of Christ and his work at Calvary more. As I drove home from work, I wondered of we Christians practiced more self denial as Jesus did as the Son of God, how much clearer our witness would be when handling the Word of God. I need help in this area and I am sure it is part of why for now I am here posting with the Lambs of Christ.
I have mis-spelled my own name on some posts. I appreciate the Hebrews verse you wrote, it speaks to me and for me.
Thanks, Carleton sorry I misspelled your name. Then we see from Daniel 9:24 The sixth thing determined, Jesus to anoint the most Holy.
Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Thanks, Carleton your posts are encouraging and uplifting.
Hi Ron, thanks for clarifying. The reason I responded is it sounded like you were trying to claim Jesus isn't God with the following phrase: "God cannot die, Jesus willfully did for us"
It sounded like you were trying to draw a contrast between God and Jesus. This is why I pointed out the false equivalency, that Jesus only died temporarily in the flesh, not spirit. So, if someone attempted to claim that... 'God cannot die, but Jesus did therefore He isn't God', I clearly pointed out that would be a false assumption and false equivalency fallacy.
"I do not remember saying anything about soul/spirit or an afterlife that was not in this discussion." It was indirectly in your statement.
Lately there have been a loud minority intentionally pushing an anti-Jesus agenda by attacking His divinity, despite John 1:1 and so many others, so I am exposing that as a false teaching. I don't think God is behind any movement attempting to discredit Jesus, but I know who else might be. God bless.
Hi S Spenser ,thanks for your reply ,there are plenty of things that we can debate about that i dont think its essential for our salvation that we understand perfectly ,for example ,i cant get my head around why Jesus would tell mary not to touch him as he had not yet ascended but not too long after tell thomas to put his hand in his wounds ,i do think that there are some things that we all need to be clear on ,im not going to go on and on ,i think ive said enough and made myself clear ,i hope now to focus on the things that bind us together in the love of the Eternal Truth ,its hard for me to stay silent when its something im convinced of ,im sure we have all felt that way some time ,may we all grow in Gods grace and understanding of His Word .Thanks for listening and taking time to answer ,i appreciate that .
Hello Ron, Thank you for your time and discussion. My meditation on the subject at hand: Isaiah 53:2 perhaps because of the calendar comes to mind: "...he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him"
The Lord Jesus as a babe and his entire conversation from Bethlehem to Calvary he denied himself of his glory and found himself in the likeness of sinful man. No one knew him. He was outwardly tempted by Satan but chose to believe his Father in Heaven and deny the world of it's offers and carry His flesh to the cross in all purity. It was at the cross where he took the sins of this earth from Adam until time is no more upon his Holy flesh and it became sin unto Him. He had to die in the flesh because of the law, God's law. His spirit still knew no sin but it knew what it is like for sinful man to have the Father look away. Yet Jesus was also the mercy seat over the law which His own blood and water sprinkled clean thereby opening the way for sinful man in the flesh to come unto Him by Faith and repentance of sin.
S Spencer on Jesus our kinsman redeemer page 2 - In Reply on Psalms 91 - 3 years ago
Page 2
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast """REDEEMED""" us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
As we see here in Revelation 5:2-3. ( They sought out a worthy "MAN" to open the sealed book ) :And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
You had to be born of a woman, you see a picture of kinsman redeemer in the book of Ruth with Boaz.
You made my day. Peace and Blessings be upon you brother.
You are correct THE ANGEL (of the Spirit; or Lord) is Christ. This ONE TRUTH is what is so hard for the mind of the flesh to understand. THERE IS ONE SPIRIT; many bodies only one Spirit. THE SPIRIT; OR SEED. Jesus was the FIRST to sprout from this seed (SPIRIT) the first man. Now with a body; but everything else IN THE FULLNESS OF GOD (SPIRIT). His words were from the WORD; because there is ONLY ONE WORD; HIS WORKS WERE from the only one who can do the works. Christ was sent to destroy the works of the devil. The devil says that that it is up to man to do the works (a murderer and liar from the beginning; when Adam was given a mind and body of flesh, this wisdom of the world began. Eve disobeyed God because SHE DID NOT BELIEVE GOD). WE TOO ARE BORN OF THE SEED; when this worldly wisdom is destroyed and replaced with THIS ONE WISDOM. Every ones words will be from THE WORD and every ones WORKS will be from GOD. There will be many bodies IN THE FULLNESS OF GOD.
Ephesians 2:22 In whom also we are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
Christ has a body in which THE FULLNESS OF GOD DWELLS; we are THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we ALL come in to the unity of the faith (of Jesus Christ), and the KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, unto a perfect man, unto the measure and stature OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST (GOD).
I just thought I would state this detail of a verse that came to light.
In Colossians 1:19. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;
As this is after speaking of Jesus Christ being the image of the invisible God and by Him and for Him were all things created. You may note that "the Father" is in italics in verse 19. Because in the Textus Receptus it is not there. It would actually read something like "for in Him it was pleasing that all the fullness dwelt".
Jesus Christ is more than a man and He existed before He was born. He was in on Creation. I can't understand how some would state that all the Words in His mouth were of His Father. Of coarse I understand the Father is in Him and giving Him all His Words to speak. Though you can easily see Jesus Christ is His own person with His own soul. Speaking to and of the Father constantly. Jesus Christ is most definitely ONE with the Father and just as much God though the Son. He is at the right Hand of God. A couple more verses stating He existed before He was born: John 3:12-13, John 6:38, John 5:45-47, John 6:62, John 8:58.
Maybe just to bring up the Angel of the LORD in the OT. Just one instance is Exodus 23:21. Not just a regular angel or even an archangel. How in Joshua 5:13-15. Where a Host of YHWH tells Joshua to take his shoes off for he is on Holy ground. As in Exodus 3:1-6. Again said to be an Angel of the LORD which is then stated as YHWH. God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Where Moses is told to take His shoes off. I would think because where YHWH is, is Holy ground.
I believe the Angel of the Lord in the OT is the pre incarnate Jesus Christ. Could I be wrong? Yes. As I have many other things to prove YHWH is not just one as normal people may perceive. Almighty God is ONE period.
I really don't know why people are trying to attack the deity of Christ. One day we will all have to stand before Him.
God Bless.
God is the righteous judge of all circumstances, His righteous judgment is not restricted by circumstances, time or anything else.
He gets it right every time!
That's why we trust him.
I hope that helps,
Hopefully someone else have something to add.
God bless you.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the BIRDS of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye HAVE NEED of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
No offense, but I think Adams first job was naming animals: and God likes critters too. Be kind to animals. We're commanded not to be cruel to animals. I have faith to believe heaven is full of all kinds of praise and worship.
I get up before the birds in the morning. They are the first ones to lift their voices in song. Trees lift their branches to praise God too. Listen to a song on YouTube: How many and Wonderful by John Michael Talbot. You'll sing too :)
Quite often though, one spouse may not be quite 'savvy' in financial matters & would entrust that responsibility to the other spouse, which could work out well. And I suppose, when you write, 'a substantial amount of money', that could be in reference to the money you already have available, whether a large or small amount. If your husband is refusing to discuss this matter with you, is he prone to making other decisions without your knowledge or involvement? Are his financial decisions leaving you & your family in hardship? You may then need to get other help if he is agreeable & prepared to go that route. I know of couples who have been forced to hold separate secret bank accounts, simply to preserve funds so that the other spouse can't get access to them & destroy their livelihood. But this hopefully, is not your situation.
I always discuss all important, out of the ordinary, financial matters with my wife - I believe that is the correct, prudent & loving way to deal with it & all matters that require mutual consideration & consent.
God bless, Ron
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Romans.8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
God bless, Ron
That Made me think of "The Restitution of all things""
Acts 3:18-21.
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
It's Interesting I think the Kinsman Redeemer is also the revenger of blood also.
But as a Interesting side note,
There's three places sought out to find a ""Man"" that was Worthy to Redeem what some Scholars call the title deed of the Earth, "Seal Book written on both sides"
( Here we are in Revelation ch 5 and the tribulation have not even started and we see ""Man"" Sought out IN HEAVEN!! Not only that suggest we'll go to Heaven but also it seems like the RAPTURE has already taken place!!!)
Revelation 5:3. AND NO MAN IN HEAVEN, NOR IN EARTH, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
You're welcome and Thank you, ,have a blessed Day.
I tend to see our human flesh as totally corrupt, save for the redemptive work of our Saviour & renewed spirits to live above that corruption. I just can't see Jesus having that flesh, which he would have, if Mary contributed to his conception. But if he did have that flesh (even though never sinning), the corrupt sin nature in Him (from Mary) would preclude Him from being an acceptable Sacrifice - He could no longer be called the "Last Adam" sent from God. Every blessing Ron.
Thank you for your reply, Ron - much appreciated. If I could just address a couple of your points:
a. "If Jesus did not have the sinful flesh that came from the first Adam and Jesus was incapable of sin what did He fulfill?" You clearly referred to Matthew 5:17. Using the Greek words for 'abolish & fulfil', their meanings are: abolish = to destroy, abrogate, or to deny Divine Authority. And 'fulfil' = to complete, fill up what was predicted, accomplish what was intended by it.
When we read it as given, then we see that the Lord, in His 'sinless' condition, could indeed fulfil the Law, because His coming was not to prove His ability to be obedient to the Law but was for the purpose to bring the Law to its planned & proper completion. And this He did as the One Who not only was the Word of God (as the Word/Law/Prophecies) given to Israel, but also Who came now in human form (that Word made Flesh) to bring the Law to finality by His death, resurrection & bringing in of a better Covenant ( Hebrews 8:6,7).
b. Romans 8:3. "in the likeness of sinful flesh". Many look at this phrase as supporting the belief that Jesus had sinful flesh as we have. If that were so, then he would have the sin nature in Him as 'sinful flesh' speaks of that, in one respect. In the other respect, it could also mean that Jesus came in human flesh, resembling (likeness of) sinful flesh that he partook of flesh, or the nature of man, but without any of its sinful propensities or desires. Why would that be? Because the sin nature, which is common to man, was not found in Him. Satan's great desire was to replicate what he did to the first Adam - but the last Adam withstood him disallowing sin to enter thereby imputing the sin nature.
As I don't want to get in between you and Adams discussion. I just wanted to note one thing that I have read of in the Scriptures. Satan can tempt anyone, even God, as shown in the beginning of the book of Job. Where the sons of God(Holy angels) came to present themselves before the Lord and satan was there. Of coarse satan thinks he can get people to turn against God. Though God is always ahead of the devil. As Jesus Christ was(on earth) and is always also.
He actually temps Him twice. Once in Job 1:6-12. Then again pushing further in Job 2:1-6. He wanted to get Job to curse God. Though he fails as usual.
Maybe a way to subdue one thing you and Adam are conversing about. With "sin nature" in Jesus Christ. I believe He was part man(from Mary) and part God(from our Father in Heaven). So my answer to if He had a sin nature or not would be "yes and no". As I don't think many would really take that as an answer to that question though that is how I perceive it. Jesus Christ was like no other being that ever walked this earth.
Have a peaceful conversation my brothers in Christ.
God Bless.
I am not trying to intrude in your conversation, but reading your post, I felt inclined to share something with you about your statement "I can't get my head around why Jesus would tell Mary not to touch him."
John Chapter 20 tells us that this was right after Jesus rose from the tomb. When Mary first saw Jesus, she thought He was the gardener. But after hearing His voice, she realized it was Jesus and she grabbed onto him. And Jesus said unto her, "Touch me not."
Now it is very interesting what the text says. This is one of those instances where the English text doesn't help us out much. We read Jesus saying don't touch me, and it's like what's that all about? First of all, the word "touch" is the word HAPTO, and it means to fasten. It doesn't mean to touch as in "Don't touch me, stay away from me!" It means don't fasten yourself to me. It is a Present Imperative in the Greek text which indicates that she is already doing it. She is holding on tight and not going to let go. Jesus is not saying don't touch me. He's saying stop clinging to me.
As a matter of fact, in Matthew 28:9, Matthew tells us that she had a death grip on His ankles. She was not going to let Him out of her sight again! So He wasn't telling her "Don't touch me." He was saying let go, don't cling to me, stop clinging to me.
And there was a reason for it, He says in John 20:17, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: In other words, He is saying, and you see, here is where the changeover comes. Here's where the ministry comes in.
He has now revealed Himself as the resurrected one to Mary, and she's got this grip on Him like I'm never going to let you out of my sight again, and He is telling her, "You have to let go because I have not yet gone to the Father."
This is not going to be a physical relationship where you can see me and hear me. It's going to be by faith. So it is interesting!
I hope this might give you a better understanding of why Jesus made that statement.
I have mis-spelled my own name on some posts. I appreciate the Hebrews verse you wrote, it speaks to me and for me.
:)
Carleton
Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Thanks, Carleton your posts are encouraging and uplifting.
God bless, Ron
It sounded like you were trying to draw a contrast between God and Jesus. This is why I pointed out the false equivalency, that Jesus only died temporarily in the flesh, not spirit. So, if someone attempted to claim that... 'God cannot die, but Jesus did therefore He isn't God', I clearly pointed out that would be a false assumption and false equivalency fallacy.
"I do not remember saying anything about soul/spirit or an afterlife that was not in this discussion." It was indirectly in your statement.
Lately there have been a loud minority intentionally pushing an anti-Jesus agenda by attacking His divinity, despite John 1:1 and so many others, so I am exposing that as a false teaching. I don't think God is behind any movement attempting to discredit Jesus, but I know who else might be. God bless.
The Lord Jesus as a babe and his entire conversation from Bethlehem to Calvary he denied himself of his glory and found himself in the likeness of sinful man. No one knew him. He was outwardly tempted by Satan but chose to believe his Father in Heaven and deny the world of it's offers and carry His flesh to the cross in all purity. It was at the cross where he took the sins of this earth from Adam until time is no more upon his Holy flesh and it became sin unto Him. He had to die in the flesh because of the law, God's law. His spirit still knew no sin but it knew what it is like for sinful man to have the Father look away. Yet Jesus was also the mercy seat over the law which His own blood and water sprinkled clean thereby opening the way for sinful man in the flesh to come unto Him by Faith and repentance of sin.
Carleton
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast """REDEEMED""" us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
As we see here in Revelation 5:2-3. ( They sought out a worthy "MAN" to open the sealed book ) :And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
You had to be born of a woman, you see a picture of kinsman redeemer in the book of Ruth with Boaz.
I hope that helps.