Mishael on Jonah 35-10 411 on Psalms 8 - 3 years ago
Jonah 3:10
The entire nation of Nineveh repented: from the king down to the animals. Sack cloth, ashes and total fast, for all.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
The one instance of God repenting.
Galatians 5:22 The Fruit of the Holy Spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Long suffering
Gentleness
Goodness
Meekness
Temperance
Comforter
Teacher
Against such there is no law. // let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
I see nothing profitable in hitting the sheep with a pole. The shepherds crook is pull them back from danger.
Adam, again, thank you for your comments & as it is now comes more directly to me, I will explain further.
A typical scenario, if I may: a sinner has come to/drawn to God through His Son, for salvation & is now a Christian; that is, the salvation given, is all of Grace & Grace alone. That believer then believes, or is led to believe, that he must needs follow God's Laws as declared in the Ten Commandments, as given to Israel/Jews (or any other Law he finds applicable) to be obedient to God, to maintain his acceptability to God, or at least, prove to his himself that he is a believer. This belief could also be found in, for example, a person's view of Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper, which are totally symbolic for the believers' benefit, but can erroneously be believed that since these ordinances have been completed/being done, he has done the right thing & therefore maintains his acceptability to God: in other words, done with a view of 'works'.
Back to my scenario: this Christian maintains obedience to the Ten Commandments & is now trusting in both Christ's Sacrifice & obedience to God's Laws to secure & maintain salvation. And this is evident, in that obedience to God's Laws is mandatory to a sinner being saved. It is this belief & action that I say, cannot work, as Salvation by faith & a strict obedience to a set of Laws to under gird that salvation are not only in conflict, but undermines the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Salvation is by Grace & nothing else, even to the keeping of the Ordinances, or good works, or obedience to a set of Laws; otherwise it is not of Grace but of Works. I have specifically avoided supplying Bible references here, as they have been quoted in my other comments earlier.
I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.
So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.
Adam, re: Jn 14:15. Is Jesus speaking here of the Law that was given to the Jews, or about His commandments? Is there a difference? Jesus came as the fulfilment of God's Laws, i.e. He is God's Law, He came to present the WHOLE Law ( Mt 5:17 ff), He became the Law to everyone who believes ( Rom 10:4). So our obedience is not to the Jewish Law which only brought death ( 2 Cor 3:6-17), but to Christ's Law (= Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Rom 8:1-4). I've never intimated that the Law given to the Jews were defective or defunct, but they were no longer binding on those "in Christ", as Christ's new Law = His commandments, go far higher in meaning & application than the old could ever do, & that too, given by God's Grace to us & His Power to us to obey them. So then, does this "New Law" through Jesus make mockery of God's original Law? Never. Jesus came to be its fulfilment in totality (i.e. Ten Commandments plus all the sacrificial & ceremonial Laws), so our obedience to Divine Laws are to be through His Spirit's ministration, as He writes them in our minds & hearts (again I use the 2 Cor 3:6-17 reference).
I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
Jesus disagrees with this in John 14:15. Jesus directly says if you love him you will keep his commandments (law). If you don't obey, then you don't love Jesus. If someone doesn't love or follow Jesus then they likely won't be invited to spend eternity with Him in heaven.
James 2 explains how grace and works work together. Its possible what you were trying to say is actually from James 2:10, but it doesn't say what you wrote. If you read on it clearly supports doing good works. No where in the Bible does it say we're NOT supposed to obey God or Jesus. It says the opposite throughout.
I watch out for anyone claiming good works are 'bad', as if following Jesus and his commands are bad. But somehow that not worrying about following Jesus's commands is 'ok' despite the exact words Jesus said that say the opposite. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Calling good bad sounds awfully familiar as if it comes a deceiver.
If you pursue Christ you are a Christian under grace, but following Him is an activity involving effort. It's not human effort that saves anyone, but it should be the natural fruit of loving Jesus. Many call themselves Christians and don't love Jesus, because they don't obey, and they will be surprised in the end just as Jesus predicted: Revelation 3:16 and Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 10:26.
Thank you Carol. I guess there's not too much else to add to this conversation thread as we both are looking at this subject through different perspectives & the twain can never meet or be compromised. One view is obedience to the whole Law of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments), & the other, obedience to Jesus, the fulfilment of all of God's Law, indeed "For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth". ( Rom 10:4).
I don't need to make further comment here as it has all been said in my previous comments. The only emphasis I would add, is that the Law was only for the Jews & no one else. So had Jesus not come for our salvation & freedom from the awful consequences by disobedience to even one of those laws, then we Gentiles would be judged by the law written in our hearts & ultimately by our Great Judge Who would judge us by our 'failed' efforts to be righteous ( Rom 2: 14,15). And the Jews would have been judged by the Law, which they could never keep to the saving of their souls. ( Rom 3:20; 2:12). BUT in His Mercy, God sent His Son to save not only His people (Jews), but to open the door of salvation to us (Gentiles), who had no part in God's Plan for the Jews, but for the Mercy & Love of God to all of His creation, now included us Gentiles. If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law. ( Rom 11:5,6: 'works' = working of the law).
Thank you for your time Carol; your comments are noted & appreciated.
The only way we can get to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood was shed for our sins. It is He that cleanses us. The only hope is in Jesus. Sin is the transgression of the Law. Which law? The ten commandments. All the ceremonial laws, the feasts, all the sacrificing of animals was done away with at the cross. Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit didn't need our help when He made the earth, moon or hung the stars. He said everything He made was good and he rested the seventh day and blessed it and sanctified it. He didn't do that on any other day. We can worship God every day but we cannot keep each day holy.
I John 2:3,4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." ! John 5: 2,3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous". Roman 7: 7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not know lust, except the law had said,Thou shalt not covet." The ten commandments is our "map" to salvation. It is God's character. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
We cook and clean house and do nice things for our family and friends. Why? We love them and want to please them. If we love Jesus we should want to please him. We have to have a one on one relationship with Him. Jesus should be the center of our life. He is love. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments.
May the Holy Spirit be with you as you study God's word.
Carol, I hear you. So let's take the 10 Commandments, which according to you, we have to obey in its entirety. As well, when I see God's Laws, I see ALL of them that require obedience, not just the '10', but the whole deal. You say that the sacrificial part of those Laws were done away with through Christ's Sacrifice: how very true, but why are those laws negated and the 10 Commandments somehow excluded? You did say that they reflect "God's Character", & this too is true as they also show man's responsibility & behaviour. But, to those under the Law (Jews), "if he shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Js 2:10); telling us that the breaking of one Law makes us (read: the Jews) guilty of all God's Laws.
And so, Paul became (appeared) "as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" ( 1 Cor 9:20). But, "to them that are WITHOUT LAW (us Gentiles), as without law, (being not without law to God, but UNDER THE LAW TO CHRIST,) that I might gain them that are without law" ( 1 Cor 9:21). So, if we Gentiles are not under the Law, but now under Grace ( Rom 6:15), then the whole Law (for the Jew) has been nailed to the Cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" ( Col 2:14). So, in truth, those under Grace, are not bound by any of God's Laws (to the Jews, or else not only keeping the Sabbath, but also of circumcision are binding), but all (both Jews & Gentiles), whether previously under the Law or not, are now released from its obligations & punishment, BY CHRIST'S Sacrifice alone. Therefore, e.g. "Thou shalt not kill" ( Ex 20:13) now becomes Mt 5:21,22: anger without cause becomes murder. God's Laws showed man his sin but couldn't cleanse him - the Law of Christ takes us way beyond that, as we fully obey Him through the His Spirit ( Rom 7:6).
"To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them". Isiah 8:20 When Jesus was nailed to the cross the Mosaic Laws was also nailed to the cross. We no longer had to sacrifice animals for forgiveness, Jesus was the Lamb that was slain. His blood covers our sins. The Ten Commandments is God's character. His Ten Commandments still stand. If they do not, then it is okay to lie, steal, murder, covet etc. We can't pick and choose what commandments we keep. If you offend in one you offend in all. Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"
Matthew 5:17, 18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments , that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".
I do believe in keeping the Sabbath, but keeping the Sabbath is only one of God's commandments. We have to obey all of God's Commandments. Jesus died so that we may be saved.
Thanks for your comments Carol. Of course, Jesus never uttered a direction to remove the Sabbath from the Law for future 'Christians': it was still the Age of Law until the fulfillment of it through God's Son. So in reality, no Christian, post Pentecost, needed obedience to any of God's laws to be saved or to gain God's favour. If we're to be completely obedient to God's Laws, then we must the do all His Laws; & which believer practises all the laws required in Exodus & Leviticus?
Rom 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth". All His Laws, including the Sabbath, are no longer binding on the believer as God doesn't judge us by them (or else who then can be saved & what did Jesus accomplish?), but found in totality in Jesus & in His finished work at Calvary.
Rom 8:1,2: "....for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin & death". It is the Spirit of Christ Who now both gives & interprets ALL of God's Laws to those now under Grace. If this then in your understanding, includes the keeping of the Sabbath, then that is your desire, but now in Christ, the believer is led by God's Spirit, by the practise of the apostles & the early Church & because everyday is holy unto the Lord & we are not constrained by OT burdens ( Col 2:16,17).
I agree with you that Jesus is the fulfillment of God's Law. Jesus was resurrected and was among his disciples after the resurrection. If He changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, surely He would have told them. In Mathew 22:36-40, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets". The first four commandments are our obligation/love for God, the remaining six is our obligation/love to our fellow man. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. God said, I change not.
Mathew 15:9 & Mark 7:7, Jesus said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".
Search the scriptures, for they testify of me. II Tim. 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". Is. 58:13, 14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob they father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."
Do we worship God and believe what He says or do we worship what man says? I am not trying to offend, judge anyone in any way, shape or form. I love the Lord and want to do what He says and follow His example. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
Thanks Carol for your comments; so I'll address them if I may. I'm in full agreement with what you correctly observe that God indeed blessed the Sabbath Day & He rested from all His Works. And also, that it was demonstrated right from Creation, & made law for the children of Israel. And then when Israel was later called Jews, the law was still very much in vogue. For this change, they were first called Hebrews (Abrahamic times); Jacob's name then changed to Israel; after Israel moved to Egypt because of famine in the land, they were called Israelites; after many years & under Roman rule in the area they called Judea, the Israelites became known as Judeans; it is then understood that the word Jews, came from the people living in Judea. So my reference to the Jewish Sabbath, was not to imply that the command came to the Jews, but that Jews, who had their roots right up to the Hebrew period, had the same unchanged commands.
Constantine (in 321 AD) did make Sunday worship 'official', the Nicea Council may also have had bearing on this, but was this when Sunday was adopted as the worship day for Christians? Again, I refer you to Acts 20:7 & Rev 1:10, which are clear, & to 1 Cor 16:2, which speaks of Paul's desire to collect from the Churches gifts that were to be given to the poor saints in Jerusalem. So on the first day of the week (Sunday), as the Corinthian Church gave of their gifts to the work there, they should also put aside extra (according to God's provision) for the poor saints. Whether they held onto these special gifts or put it into a common repository is unknown, but Paul wanted no 'mad dash' for collecting the gifts when he came to visit them.
Your further remarks on the Sabbath, I have dealt with, saying earlier, that "Jesus is now our Sabbath, our Spiritual Rest. Please be assured, that I'm not picking & choosing which commandments to obey, I follow biblical teaching within the bounds of law & grace: that CHRIST IS THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S LAWS.
Chris, Thank you for responding. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. "God rested on the Sabbath day, the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." There were no Jews when God blessed the seventh day so it cannot be said that it is a Jewish Sabbath. Only Adam and Eve was on the earth at that time. The Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday by Constantine in 321 A.D. The scriptures you gave in Acts was a meeting, not church and the scripture in 1 Corinthians was talking about giving (collections).
I believe what the bible says and I believe the bible is God's word. God said to "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". I don't think it trivial to follow what is in the 10 Commandments. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Revelation14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus". Jesus is our example, he went into the temple as was His custom on the seventh day.
I am not judging anyone or trying to offend anyone. Jesus did not say to change the commandments in honor of his resurrection, He said keep my commandments. Jesus said if you offend in one, then you offend in all. Do we say it is ok to kill, lie or steal? No we don't. Why do we keep the traditions of man above what God has plainly stated and written by His own hand on two tablets of stone?
Carol, the early Christians started to meet together in homes on the first day of the week: Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2. We believe that this was not just to be different to the Jewish Sabbath, but in remembrance of the Lord's Resurrection on the first day of the week. As well, apostle Paul & probably the other apostles, used to meet up with the Jews on the Sabbath in the synagogues to discuss with them matters of the Law (& Grace). And Jesus "came not to destroy the Law (which was given to Israel) but to fulfil it ( Mt 5:17). In other words, in Christ was found the full realization of the Law & the Prophets; which means, that through faith in Him, God's Laws & requirements for us are now written in our hearts by His Spirit & not by hand as in the commandments ( 2 Cor 3:3). Jesus is our 'Sabbath' = our Rest ( Heb 4:9-11): a spiritual rest & not a physical one as was first commanded for the needs of the body & sanctification of the day.
Then again, if you consider believers in Muslim countries, they generally worship on a Friday, as Muslims do; they do so not to align with them, but probably because this is also their day off (& usually the only day off during the week), so that they could then come together as a Church. However, there are still Church services held on Sunday in some of these countries to cater for those who can make it to a Sunday service. As well, apostle Paul also speaks of this aspect, in relation to judging others for their particular inclinations, e.g. with food, drink, holy days, sabbaths ( Col 2:16); we are just simply to respect another's worship style or days observed & not judge them for such trivial matters, rather, be concerned when God's Word is not carefully brought out, false teaching coming into the Church or 'Christians' leading licentious lives. By all means worship the Lord on a Saturday, but understand why others follow the NT Church pattern.
Why was it acceptable to change the day of worship from Sabbath, Saturday to Sunday? God said, "I change not". The fourth commandment said "Remember the Sabbath", the only commandment with "Remember". Isn't being a Christian meaning Christlike? Jesus went to the temple on Saturday as was his custom. Why do people go to church on Sunday? God wrote the 10 Commandments with his own finger, he hung the stars, moon and the sun, he created us, did he need our help? We should worship on the day He said. We can worship everyday, but we can't keep every day holy. Sabbath was made for man.
Our praise is too tainted with our adamic nature.our lust for materialistic things,thats y we must be bornagain of an incorruptible seed giving birth to christ in us,my lil children of whom i travail in birth till christ is formed in you then our praise will be perfect. our enemy is our carnal minds that is in rank with satan thus our praise is lacking we need a new heart and a new spirit.the manchild is gonna rule all nations destroying anything not of faith. our carnal minds etc.let this mind be in you that was in christ jesus.the babes n sucklings are the israel of god the children of promise the children of the kingdom that is gonna be born in us sinners.behold me and the children gbu.
88 Times in the N.T. Jesus refers to himself as the SON OF MAN,He was trying to tell em something but it was hid from the wise and prudent but revealed unto babes and sucklings his offspring. I will give children to be their Princes and babes shall rule over them which is the H.G. THE CHILD OF PROMISE MANKINDS FRUIT UNTO God A BABY CHRIST BORN IN US.That woman in Rev is US,UNTO US a child is born.
Natural israel required this abrahamic trinity which was abraham issac and jacob, father son n granson, jacob was the granson that god used to initiate the 12 tribes israel.that great promise was a bout multiplication of abrahams seed,but all that was just an allegory of another israel,another issac that wd be offered up a heavenly promise where god himself wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven
This scripture is prophetic of his children which are spirits he said that which is born of spirit is spirit thats the H.G. his offspring,he will not sire flesh n blood children but Gods to whom his WORD his Seeds came it made them Gods thats y he said b c i have spoken these words seeds sorrows have filled your hearts a spritual pregnancy,we are gona birth a baby CHRIST thus babes and sucklings.
Thank you Bill. We multiply as humans not as gods. While we were made in image of God.it was lost when sin entered. Now when we have second birth we get image back and have Christ in us. Only those who believe on Jesus Christ have image restoed. However we dont multiply as gods. We multiply as humans. Thank you for truth. God bless
We are given the opportunity to awake each day and praise him for being our creator and to see his creations. Who are we to ever compare ourselves to the Almighty God or his Son Jesus Christ? Glorify him and consider everything hes done in our lives and for us and give him Thanks..Amen
Here we have a powerful king of Judah, realizing just how small he is in comparison. In verse 4, we can really see David's humility. This makes me think of today's rulers. When they reach a position of power, they believe they are the center of the universe. They don't recognize there is someone higher than they are. A good ruler will, acknowledge that there is someone higher than him.
there is one God, who created everything with just his fingers, amazing, his light shines upon us. He sent his son so we may follow his ways, and seek the true light in heaven, we should give thanks to him always, and be forever his, he is our creator there is know other Amen!
Mild Bill,saved by grace on Psalms 8 - 6 years ago
Name is better understood as reputation and excellent as extremely good.God is Majestic,surpassing our understanding,yet
compassionate/mindful and with a plan towards us.The awfulness of sin is partially revealed in that God has enemies.Futile/pointless is resistance and rejection of their creator.Jesus rules the creation,purchased by his sacrifice/giving of his innocent blood,4 you
God is love t
Alex,"meaning he was gonna MULTIPLY himself".When you say "meaning",I see an idea not supported by sound understanding of scripture.I see you reading "into" those verses the meaning you want to see.Text out of context is a pretext.I have tried to show you that some other ideas, like" THE BABES AND THE SUCKLINGS THAT WILL DESTROY HIS ENEMY"are flawed also.You need a more careful study to not err.
Bill the main theme of the bible is Multiplication, Member Abraham wanted a posterity but was without children AND TOO OLD TO HAVE ANY But God made him a PROMISE that he wd be the father of many nations, resulting in the nation of Israel,but natural Israel did not please GOD, answers to Ismael th flesh.but when God cd sware by no greater he swore by himself meaning he was gonna MULTIPLY himself.
Bill even in the natural a bride and bridegoom become 1, We are gonna become 1 with him Thats y Jesus said to whom the WORD ( THAT GOOD SEED ) CAME IT MADE THEM GODS AND THE SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN, GODS IS PLURAL, THUS WE SEE THAT GREAT PROMISE IN THESE WORDS, I WILL MULTIPLY THY SEED AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN. The mystery of the kingdom of God is Christ in you resulting from that GOOD SEED .GBU
Alex you err about multiplication."God wants to multiply himself",no,the creatures never ever become the creator. That is a lie from the garden."Christ was the beginning of this multiplication",no,Christ is God and always was.Your text references,in context,do not support/imply YOUR idea that we are a multiplication of Christ.To be the Christ means to personally never have to need forgiveness.U do
The entire nation of Nineveh repented: from the king down to the animals. Sack cloth, ashes and total fast, for all.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
The one instance of God repenting.
Galatians 5:22 The Fruit of the Holy Spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Long suffering
Gentleness
Goodness
Meekness
Temperance
Comforter
Teacher
Against such there is no law. // let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
I see nothing profitable in hitting the sheep with a pole. The shepherds crook is pull them back from danger.
What would the Holy Spirit do?
Jesus said to Peter: feed my sheep; 3 times.
Intercessory prayer is for His flock.
Standing in the gap, is for carrying lambs.
Adam, again, thank you for your comments & as it is now comes more directly to me, I will explain further.
A typical scenario, if I may: a sinner has come to/drawn to God through His Son, for salvation & is now a Christian; that is, the salvation given, is all of Grace & Grace alone. That believer then believes, or is led to believe, that he must needs follow God's Laws as declared in the Ten Commandments, as given to Israel/Jews (or any other Law he finds applicable) to be obedient to God, to maintain his acceptability to God, or at least, prove to his himself that he is a believer. This belief could also be found in, for example, a person's view of Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper, which are totally symbolic for the believers' benefit, but can erroneously be believed that since these ordinances have been completed/being done, he has done the right thing & therefore maintains his acceptability to God: in other words, done with a view of 'works'.
Back to my scenario: this Christian maintains obedience to the Ten Commandments & is now trusting in both Christ's Sacrifice & obedience to God's Laws to secure & maintain salvation. And this is evident, in that obedience to God's Laws is mandatory to a sinner being saved. It is this belief & action that I say, cannot work, as Salvation by faith & a strict obedience to a set of Laws to under gird that salvation are not only in conflict, but undermines the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Salvation is by Grace & nothing else, even to the keeping of the Ordinances, or good works, or obedience to a set of Laws; otherwise it is not of Grace but of Works. I have specifically avoided supplying Bible references here, as they have been quoted in my other comments earlier.
(onto Page 2).
I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.
So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.
May God bless you...
I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
Jesus disagrees with this in John 14:15. Jesus directly says if you love him you will keep his commandments (law). If you don't obey, then you don't love Jesus. If someone doesn't love or follow Jesus then they likely won't be invited to spend eternity with Him in heaven.
James 2 explains how grace and works work together. Its possible what you were trying to say is actually from James 2:10, but it doesn't say what you wrote. If you read on it clearly supports doing good works. No where in the Bible does it say we're NOT supposed to obey God or Jesus. It says the opposite throughout.
I watch out for anyone claiming good works are 'bad', as if following Jesus and his commands are bad. But somehow that not worrying about following Jesus's commands is 'ok' despite the exact words Jesus said that say the opposite. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Calling good bad sounds awfully familiar as if it comes a deceiver.
If you pursue Christ you are a Christian under grace, but following Him is an activity involving effort. It's not human effort that saves anyone, but it should be the natural fruit of loving Jesus. Many call themselves Christians and don't love Jesus, because they don't obey, and they will be surprised in the end just as Jesus predicted: Revelation 3:16 and Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 10:26.
I don't need to make further comment here as it has all been said in my previous comments. The only emphasis I would add, is that the Law was only for the Jews & no one else. So had Jesus not come for our salvation & freedom from the awful consequences by disobedience to even one of those laws, then we Gentiles would be judged by the law written in our hearts & ultimately by our Great Judge Who would judge us by our 'failed' efforts to be righteous ( Rom 2: 14,15). And the Jews would have been judged by the Law, which they could never keep to the saving of their souls. ( Rom 3:20; 2:12). BUT in His Mercy, God sent His Son to save not only His people (Jews), but to open the door of salvation to us (Gentiles), who had no part in God's Plan for the Jews, but for the Mercy & Love of God to all of His creation, now included us Gentiles. If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law. ( Rom 11:5,6: 'works' = working of the law).
Thank you for your time Carol; your comments are noted & appreciated.
I John 2:3,4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." ! John 5: 2,3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous". Roman 7: 7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not know lust, except the law had said,Thou shalt not covet." The ten commandments is our "map" to salvation. It is God's character. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
We cook and clean house and do nice things for our family and friends. Why? We love them and want to please them. If we love Jesus we should want to please him. We have to have a one on one relationship with Him. Jesus should be the center of our life. He is love. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments.
May the Holy Spirit be with you as you study God's word.
And so, Paul became (appeared) "as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" ( 1 Cor 9:20). But, "to them that are WITHOUT LAW (us Gentiles), as without law, (being not without law to God, but UNDER THE LAW TO CHRIST,) that I might gain them that are without law" ( 1 Cor 9:21). So, if we Gentiles are not under the Law, but now under Grace ( Rom 6:15), then the whole Law (for the Jew) has been nailed to the Cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" ( Col 2:14). So, in truth, those under Grace, are not bound by any of God's Laws (to the Jews, or else not only keeping the Sabbath, but also of circumcision are binding), but all (both Jews & Gentiles), whether previously under the Law or not, are now released from its obligations & punishment, BY CHRIST'S Sacrifice alone. Therefore, e.g. "Thou shalt not kill" ( Ex 20:13) now becomes Mt 5:21,22: anger without cause becomes murder. God's Laws showed man his sin but couldn't cleanse him - the Law of Christ takes us way beyond that, as we fully obey Him through the His Spirit ( Rom 7:6).
Matthew 5:17, 18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments , that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".
I do believe in keeping the Sabbath, but keeping the Sabbath is only one of God's commandments. We have to obey all of God's Commandments. Jesus died so that we may be saved.
1 Corinthians 14:26
1 Thess. 5:11
Matthew 28:20
Deuteronomy 31:12-13
There's five reasons. It's much more powerful if the church is well attended for Corporate Prayer (in case you're sick or struggling in some area.)
Rom 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth". All His Laws, including the Sabbath, are no longer binding on the believer as God doesn't judge us by them (or else who then can be saved & what did Jesus accomplish?), but found in totality in Jesus & in His finished work at Calvary.
Rom 8:1,2: "....for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin & death". It is the Spirit of Christ Who now both gives & interprets ALL of God's Laws to those now under Grace. If this then in your understanding, includes the keeping of the Sabbath, then that is your desire, but now in Christ, the believer is led by God's Spirit, by the practise of the apostles & the early Church & because everyday is holy unto the Lord & we are not constrained by OT burdens ( Col 2:16,17).
Mathew 15:9 & Mark 7:7, Jesus said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".
Search the scriptures, for they testify of me. II Tim. 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". Is. 58:13, 14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob they father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."
Do we worship God and believe what He says or do we worship what man says? I am not trying to offend, judge anyone in any way, shape or form. I love the Lord and want to do what He says and follow His example. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
Constantine (in 321 AD) did make Sunday worship 'official', the Nicea Council may also have had bearing on this, but was this when Sunday was adopted as the worship day for Christians? Again, I refer you to Acts 20:7 & Rev 1:10, which are clear, & to 1 Cor 16:2, which speaks of Paul's desire to collect from the Churches gifts that were to be given to the poor saints in Jerusalem. So on the first day of the week (Sunday), as the Corinthian Church gave of their gifts to the work there, they should also put aside extra (according to God's provision) for the poor saints. Whether they held onto these special gifts or put it into a common repository is unknown, but Paul wanted no 'mad dash' for collecting the gifts when he came to visit them.
Your further remarks on the Sabbath, I have dealt with, saying earlier, that "Jesus is now our Sabbath, our Spiritual Rest. Please be assured, that I'm not picking & choosing which commandments to obey, I follow biblical teaching within the bounds of law & grace: that CHRIST IS THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S LAWS.
I believe what the bible says and I believe the bible is God's word. God said to "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". I don't think it trivial to follow what is in the 10 Commandments. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Revelation14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus". Jesus is our example, he went into the temple as was His custom on the seventh day.
I am not judging anyone or trying to offend anyone. Jesus did not say to change the commandments in honor of his resurrection, He said keep my commandments. Jesus said if you offend in one, then you offend in all. Do we say it is ok to kill, lie or steal? No we don't. Why do we keep the traditions of man above what God has plainly stated and written by His own hand on two tablets of stone?
Then again, if you consider believers in Muslim countries, they generally worship on a Friday, as Muslims do; they do so not to align with them, but probably because this is also their day off (& usually the only day off during the week), so that they could then come together as a Church. However, there are still Church services held on Sunday in some of these countries to cater for those who can make it to a Sunday service. As well, apostle Paul also speaks of this aspect, in relation to judging others for their particular inclinations, e.g. with food, drink, holy days, sabbaths ( Col 2:16); we are just simply to respect another's worship style or days observed & not judge them for such trivial matters, rather, be concerned when God's Word is not carefully brought out, false teaching coming into the Church or 'Christians' leading licentious lives. By all means worship the Lord on a Saturday, but understand why others follow the NT Church pattern.
compassionate/mindful and with a plan towards us.The awfulness of sin is partially revealed in that God has enemies.Futile/pointless is resistance and rejection of their creator.Jesus rules the creation,purchased by his sacrifice/giving of his innocent blood,4 you
God is love t