Numbers Chapter 5 Discussion



 
  • Jeff on Numbers 5:17
    What made the water holy? Because

    It was within the holy of holies?
  • Jacklyn Flynn on Numbers 5:27
    I am curious...

    Is this talking about abortion? If the woman (from my understanding) had intercourse with another man and got pregnant, then the fetus would die... but if she was impregnated by her husband (thus not committing adultery) then she will continue to conceive the child. In my bible, instead of the word "thigh," the word "uterus" is used, implying an abortion.
  • Chris - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    I don't believe that this portion of Scripture speaks of an abortion. There is no indication at all that she conceived from an illicit relationship, rather, that if her husband suspected her of engaging in such relationship & then brought her to the priest for administering the Jealousy Offering, then the results of the consumption of the offering would determine what would happen to her.

    If she didn't suffer as a result, then she was free to go, as the Lord showed the priest that she was guiltless & she would still be able to become pregnant. However, if she was found guilty, then what seems to be a swelling of the belly (uterus?) & rotting of the thigh (?) would be her punishment for the rest of her life. I would imagine that she would have suffered continually because this affliction coming upon her, & possibly her other internal organs also being affected as a result. And of course, the ignominy of being found unfaithful to her husband made her a curse & cause of gossip amongst the people.

    Of course, we're not told of what happened, if at all, to the man with whom she committed adultery.
  • Jacklyn - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    I continue to see the topic of abortion continue.

    The text says the following:

    "And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed." This line alone suggests that there was in fact a "seed" to conceive. The seed being a fetus of course. In my bible (New American Bible), the alternative line is "If, however, the woman has not defiled herself, but is still pure, she will be immune and will still be fertile." the single word "still" implies that she was fertile before the offering and that by consuming the offering after sleeping with another man, she would no longer be fertile (a forced miscarriage). I think it is also safe to say that protection (condoms at the least) were not an option back in the day and women who had intercourse (sex if we may) would presumably conceive.

    This is merely the selective phrasing of the King James Bible. In other texts, I have found that the word "miscarry" is used directly.

    Also if we were to look at the effects of a miscarriage, they are excessive bleeding from the uterus and discolored/odored discharge which would mean that the phrase "rotting of the thigh" would be a somewhat accurate description of the bodily response to a miscarriage. The smell and look of the thighs after a miscarriage would resemble rotting. This text was written based on the observation of man, who must have seen the effects of a miscarriage. And since this miscarriage was forced by drinking an offering, it would technically be an abortion.

    Of course, I am looking into science and literature. Not just one. So I am welcome to more explanations. Now I am not justifying abortion in my text (my social views are private) but I would like to base my beliefs on the bible. And if the bible justifies abortions, well... no further comment needed.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    Hi Jacklyn, I meant to say it shows no evidence of pregnancy, another one of my famous misprints. thanks
  • Steven Spencer - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    Hi jacklyn, If I. may add to what chris has stated. May I refer you to Deuteronomy 28:18 ( KJV )Cursed shall be the fruit of thy "body," and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. Here is where body is used as womb in this verse in Hebrew-

    Hebrew: Transliteration: been

    Pronunciation: beh'-ten

    Definition: From an unused root probably meaning to be hollow; the {belly} especially the womb; also the bosom or body of anything: - {belly} {body} + as they be {born} + {within} womb.

    KJV Usage: belly(30x), womb(31x), body(8x), within(2x), born(1x).

    Occurs: 72

    In verses: 72. In Deuteronomy Ch 28 God list a bunch of curses that he would put on Israel if they disobedient, A curse on the womb was one. Woman able to bare children was a blessing, and when they couldn't they thought they were cursed, I believe Sarah thought she was cursed, the verse seems to state if she was guilty then she wouldn't be able to conceive seed as Chris said, It shows evidence of pregnancy. Thanks
  • Chris - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    Jackyln, I see it this way, if we want to see that an abortion being supported here, then we can, as we can do with other Scriptures that teach on matters of theology or on human living. We can take the many instructions by God to Israel to go to war & wipe out people, including women & children. Does this make God some type of vicious ogre keen on destruction? Or is there another reason for such an instruction? Does it then given us licence to kill another because we believe that in doing so we fulfil God's requirement to destroy all who oppose Him or us?

    If murder is sin, & I believe you will concur, then it comes down to whether the seed (or, the life) in the womb can be subjected to murder or not. And this of course, is the core of the matter between the pro-life & pro-choice adherents. Govts. walk a fine line: if they are too harsh & strong on one issue, then their tenure is very short at the polls. So they try & appease both sides by setting a last date for the termination of the foetus, hoping that the one side will be convinced & the other side can proceed with removal of the foetus to their relief. So the question is: at which point does life begin?

    With that in mind, that murder is sin, I understand Numbers 5:28 to read: "However, if the woman is innocent of the charge by not being affected by the 'potion' given her, then she is no longer to be condemned & her womb will be healthy to conceive." You're thinking in terms of a 'seed' already there to become a foetus, whereas I see that there is no seed, rather an instruction that the woman's womb will be healthy (unlike the guilty woman's) to be able to produce babies. If the word 'miscarry' is seen elsewhere, then of course, it's up to those translators. Looking at the Hebrew for this verse, "and shall conceive seed": 'she shall be free & may conceive children' - she may fructify (to bear fruit) or become pregnant.

    The point of this passage is: the state of the womb, not whether she was carrying a seed.
  • Dianne - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    Jacklyn maybe this will help when God gave Moses the law he knew man wouldn't keep them so he showed the consequences of actions committed by sin, even in the new testament apostle paul had to correct the corinthian church on acts of incest. It was still up to people whether to obey or not. When it came to noah God said He was the only righteous man on the planet i. e. the only person that loved God. So all other humans were absolutely lawless which is why God closed the arch not noah.
  • Adam - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    Hello, there's a lot of assumptions being made here and I don't believe this is talking about abortion.

    And it would take even greater mental gymnastics to twist it in attempt to justify mass murdering babies. That would be pure evil. Innocent precious fetuses are made in God's image as it says in scripture, God knitted them together in the womb. Jeremiah 1:5. This verse says this baby lept for joy in the womb. Luke 1:44 Would you have tried to kill Him? Many more verses: Link What about their rights to life? Satan is behind all these attempts to dehumanize innocent cute babies, just like Nazis did to dehumanize the Jews. As Christians we will not tolerate such hate and will stand against this vile evil with all of our power. I will call out this lie every time I hear it and will never back down. There is no reason for abortion- a horrible mom can still get out of parental responsibility by letting a loving family adopt and love the child. Problem solved. But then you have totally evil moms who are deceived into these lies thinking murder is ok. Nice try.

    The other logical fallacy is in claiming 'it says it in the Bible so it's ok'. The Bible talks about the many evils they have done through history, like murder, so according to that logic it justifies murder and committing all other sins? That's crazy to conclude that. There's an obvious difference between history and instruction. Luke 1:44

    Finally, it's awful convenient how none of the people trying to justify murdering babies wants to be murdered themselves. They just want to kill others and not be subject to the same 'rights' they claim their own mom should have had over them. Total double standard. Basically, it's pure evil and wickedness to kill people. If it's illegal and wrong to kill unborn animals then obviously it's wrong to destroy God's creation of people. I don't believe a true Christian could support such evil.
  • Ontop - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    It is better if you wasn't born....message to the betrayal
  • Jacklyn - in Reply on Numbers 5:27
    Excuse me?
  • Lily on Numbers 5:5
    Does the bible tell us what hairstyle we have to wear.
  • Cynthia Bromback on Numbers 5
    I do not see how the jealousy curse indicates a miscarriage or abortion. It says nothing about her being pregnant.
  • Jim - in Reply on Numbers 5
    Why discuss carnal act with another man and the woman's womb? In this context, it's pretty clear what God is directing Moses to do.
  • Artie vanlandingham - in Reply on Numbers 5
    I believe the husband did not want to have sex with a cheating wife until she was proven cursed or clean.
  • Cynthia Bromback - in Reply on Numbers 5
    Nothing is ever said about a pregnancy or termination in that scripture.
  • Artie K vanlandingham - in Reply on Numbers 5
    Hatred or enmity came from the opinion of the first woman who debated Gods word and want occurred. That's why The scripture say's The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want instead of only fear. The first male sinned through being ignorant and tried to blame the woman. That's why the she goat sacrifice was required by Moses from that man. That's why men rule over the woman now.
  • Artie K vanlandingham - in Reply on Numbers 5
    It's true that Numbers 5 has no mention of pregnancy, but in spiritual terms the bitter water also represents the curse of enmity because like water or waters we are all swimming together in it and also in Revelations. The dirt or soil in the Holy tent was considered sacred since it was under the red dyed rams skins. The swelling of belly rot of the thigh was a way of finding a woman's secret.
  • Cynthia Bromback - in Reply on Numbers 5
    The womans secret would be adultery not pregnancy.
  • Artie K vanlandingham - in Reply on Numbers 5
    Yes, But if a woman could hide adultery without being cursed by her thigh rotting then men would know nothing about raising another seed besides his own. Adultery fornication have no difference in the weight of sin. Which is the secret Balaam told the king, which caused young female fornicators to be sent into the camp of Israel. His reward gained money, but also death. America has adopted it.
  • Terri l nyberg on Numbers 5
    Numbers 5:21 and 27: Womb shrink and abdomen to swell - is the curse to cause a woman to miscarry or to be infertile?
  • Artie vanlandingham - in Reply on Numbers 5
    By drinking the water mixed with soil in the Holy place a woman can't lie.
  • Miguel Atkinson on Numbers 5
    The law of jealousies foretell Jesus Christ being born! God has shown me This! Believe in Jesus Christ and you shall have everlasting life! Get a king james bible and believe. In Exodus chapter 20 we see what makes God jealous and this is "law of jealousies". The adulteress or non faithful woman is "israel" and is under the curse. The faithful wife "Judah" is made free of curse and conceives seed.
  • Michael on Numbers 5
    Does anyone think law of jealousies points to Israel and Judah? One committed adultery with stones and other brought forth the seed. I think so but I am still studying this.
  • BSP on Numbers 5
    Verse 2~Jehovah God gave the command for the lepers to be separate. Leprosy is contagious and so God was trying to keep his people healthy, safe, and holy.
  • A disciple on Numbers 5
    David, this part in the Law was only a part of what all is said about adultery: the commandment is, Thou shalt not commit ADULTERY. And the Lord Jesus expounded it to the Jews; who ought to have known already; that the Word goes to the thoughts and intents of the heart; and not only in the physical action. Other Scriptures mention the death penalty applying to both the man and woman for that sin.
  • David on Numbers 5
    Why is it that only women are prosecuted in the Bible days for infidelity?
  • Stanjett - in Reply on Numbers 5
    Not so. The man and the woman was stoned.
  • David on Numbers 5
    I am a bit uncomfortable about the system of the olden days. Why is it that, it's only women's infidelity attracts courses and judgment, does it mean that in those days men doesn't have extramarital affairs?


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