The Bible is replete with references to the Wrath of God. With reference to the End Times, what exactly is John referring to when he speaks of the Wrath of God?
Additionally, is there a relationship between the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord?
No apology needed. It just seemed sort of odd when I saw that because all your previous posts have all been very cordial. I have actually had that happen to one of my posts where things got added in that I did not type.
I think the most important thing concerning the rapture is that we both agree that there will be a rapture. We don't have to agree with each other on the time.
There are Pre/Mid/Post rapture believers and they all have scripture to back up why they take one of those three positions.
Like I said to Bob, I don't have an issue with whatever of the three positions someone chooses to take.
Why is the rapture a hotly contested thing? That is a great question Bob. We could also ask why do we disagree on anything the Bible has to say? Believers disagree on all sorts of things that the Bible teaches.
I think disagreements become hotly contested when those in disagreement with each other take the attitude of "I'm right, and you're wrong." It's called human pride. We take our understanding of scripture and we turn ourselves into "Bible scholars." You know, it's like the "Thus saith Jesse," or "Thus saith Bob" approach.
I think another reason why believers disagree with each other so often is because we study our English bibles, and English is such a general language, much like Hebrew.
We can come away with multiple meanings on what the English text is saying because there are multiple meanings to English words. Honestly, I think that's why we have so many denominational churches out there. It's because people can't agree on what the English text is saying.
I think it was God's design that our New Testament be originally written in Greek. Greek is the most exact language there is, and you don't come away with multiple meanings on what the text is saying like we do with the English.
Anyways, that's my thoughts on your question.
I am curious though. If the Tribulation period comes in our lifetime, what will your role be during those 7 years? I don't think it will be to spread the gospel. God already has a plan for that. What will be your function on this earth when God's wrath is being poured out?
Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?
In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation. If you find it let me know.
Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Jesse no one believed in pre trib until 1830 AD believe what you wish but it makes a difference. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt it. Question: How many million Christian died in communism the last 100 years?
I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and I have never once made the claim that there is a second phase of the first resurrection listed in Revelation 20:4-6. Did someone tell you that? There is only one rapture of the church and it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and it takes place prior to the 7 year tribulation period. That is my understanding, and not just mine, but many others.
If you want to believe you will go through God's wrath during the tribulation period, if it happens during our lifetime, I don't have a problem with that. Really, I don't. I don't know why it would bother you that I believe in a pre-trib rapture? From my understanding in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God has not appointed us believers unto wrath, so I do not believe that God is going to pour His judgment out on any believer.
Again, if you believe you're going to be there when His wrath is being poured out, I don't have an issue with that. If I may ask, since you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, are you mid-trib, or post-trib? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with what you are saying. And I hope you are not accusing me of adding to the bible. You are also in disagreement with me, but I would never make such an accusation against anyone for simply disagreeing with my understanding.
Bob Hilt, your observation of the two resurrections is an entirely new and logical argument for me. I had never heard it said that way. The point is well made. If it were not so, there would have to be at least, 3 resurrections. Great point! Thank you.
Jesse, to take up where I left off, Daniel 7-12 gives us a good picture of who the Restrainer is in 2Thess2:6. He says it is Israel. And he also states that Israel will be defeated when Persia comes against it. And that is what was holding the full flood of destruction against the Church and the Jews. Dan8:24 and 12:7, "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." Compare this to 2Thess2:6, "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way." Whom does Daniel say will be shattered, destroyed and taken out of the way? The Jewish nation and the influence of the Church.
In any case, there is no reason to believe that the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, since 2:6 is abundantly clear. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM.... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
As I previously mentioned, the AntiChrist doesn't sit in the Holy of Holies to proclaim himself God until the middle of the 7 years week. Daniel 7-12 and Matthew 24 make that clear. But the Rapture is not in the middle of the week. Jesus emphasizes He will come, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation Matt24:21, 29. The 7 years Tribulation begins. Three years into it, the AntiChrist crowns himself God in the Temple. "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and never shall be."
What happens after the AntiChrist sits in the Temple? The Great Tribulation. Then what happens? Matt24, Daniel 7-12, 2Thess2. The Gathering. The Rapture. Therefore, according to what has been said in the cited passages, when is the Rapture?
Jesse, first of all, let me apologize for the 'hello'. I don't see where it is, but if it showed in the post you saw, it was totally unintentional. My intent is to have a proper discussion of the matter, not berate or belittle anyone. Capitalization is to highlight for emphasis.
First of all, there is no distinction drawn whatsoever in the OT or New, between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Jesus never mentions it. And in fact, the only time He speaks of it is in Matt24, Mk13 and Lk21. In 2Thess2, Paul reiterates what Christ said.
So where does the distinction between the 2nd Coming and the Rapture come from? Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture comes from the inference drawn from Revelation 1-3. There is no actual statement referred to, other than that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3. Somehow, that is taken to mean the Church disappears, although nothing actually suggests such a thing. The conclusion drawn that Believers are Raptured, from absence of a mention of the Church again, is fallacious. No such conclusion is warranted.
However, what is rarely mentioned is there will be Believers, consequently a thriving Church, during the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. Compare Rev11:4-12 and 1:20. See also Rev13:10, "Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." 14:10-12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." 6:9, 12:11, 17, 20:4. Rev7:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Another specious argument is that Saints refers to Jews, not Christians. But that is debunked by Philemon1:5, Rev17:6, "I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus."
The fact remains that nothing anywhere refers to a PreTrib Rapture. The language and images for the Rapture are the same in Matt, These, Rev and Daniel 7-12 on Restrainer.
In Revelation 20:4-6 the last book of the Bible there are only 2 more FUTURE Resurrections (Raptures) spoken of: after the 2 witnesses appear
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. rapture
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In the above scriptures, these are the Martyrs. John said "this is the first resurrection." John didn't say this is the "second phase of the first resurrection," as pre-tribbers claim.
If this is the FIRST resurrection, can there be a resurrection before this one? Of course not, unless you want to ADD to the bible
The First Resurrection is of the dead in Christ and the Second is after 1000 years. Paul wrote that the Dead in Christ MUST rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 ...and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST
17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
In Rev. 20:4-5, John sees the souls of Saints who were BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. John writes that they will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years and that this is the FIRST RESURRECTION!
the beheaded rise in the FIRST resurrection and Paul said those who are alive and remain are not caught up until AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, then this comes at the end of the tribulation.
First I want to address the areas you place in all caps because right away those are the areas that catch my attention. Either you are trying to emphasize your point, or you are trying to show me something you think I do not understand. First, you say He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. I believe that's accurate. And then you say Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple. I agree with that. And then you say after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR. Again, I agree. And you also say there is only ONE Second Coming. I'm fully aware of that. And then finally you say PREPARE! Hello. What is the hello? Would that be the same as saying Duh?
We both agree that there is one second coming of Christ. And we both agree that it will be after the 7 year Tribulation period. What we disagree on is the time of the rapture of the church. I think our understanding of what takes place at His second coming differs. What I am gathering from you is that you see us being raptured at His second coming. Would that be a safe assumption on my part?
I see His second coming and the rapture of the church as being two separate events. When He comes for the church at the rapture, we meet Him in the air. He does not step down onto the earth at that time. At His second coming, after the 7 year Tribulation, that is when He steps foot on the earth. Plus, at His second coming, we come back with Him. There is no rapture at His second coming.
The Great Tribulation, last 3-1/2 years, is going to be a time of such wrath upon this earth like we have never seen before. We can't even begin to imagine how horrible a time it's going to be. During the time of God's wrath being poured out, there is no mention of the church being on the earth, only ungodly unbelievers.
I commend you for doing a careful study of the scripture. That's what we are all supposed to do, right?
THANK YOU. But keep in mind that I am not an expert on Stars and their use in the Bible. However, the same applies to Trees, Grass, Water and many other things.
Jesse, I see your point. However, when I say we know the time, given that Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 that that day will not creep up on us like a thief, I mean that in Matthew 24:29, Jesus specifically says that He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days.
He further tells us that the day of His return will not be until after the Abomination (AntiChrist) sits in the Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself above God. See Daniel 12. That abominable act doesn't happen until 3 years after the 7 years Tribulation period begins. Consequently, if Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple, then Christ won't come at the start of the 7 years Tribulation.
In addition, Christ adds to that that after the AntiChrist exalts himself in the Temple Holy of Holies, there will be what is known as the last 3 years of the 7 years Tribulation. He calls that the Great Tribulation. Throughout the discourse, Christ warns us not to be fooled when people tell us that Christ is here or there.
Then Jesus goes on to tell us that after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR.
There is no other place in the entire Bible where we are told when Christ will return, except this. And it is Jesus Himself telling us. This is borne out by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2, which is almost a repetition of Matthew 24.
Unfortunately, the 100 years old teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is deceptive. I too used to think that was the way it was, because that's what I was taught. But a careful study of Scripture shows the opposite. The arguments for it fail the test of logic, reality and more significantly, Scripture. I am not criticizing. I am just pointing it out. Any study of the Rapture, as presented in 1 Thes 4, should begin with Matthew 24:29. There is only ONE Second Coming and it won't be in stages. That is why Christ immediately transitions to the Virgins of Matthew 25. PREPARE!
Thanks for your time and response. I agree that the word star or stars can be used as literal stars or used symbolically. I've never spent much time researching every reference to the word star or stars so I have nothing much to share in this area. I think you've answered my question and I do appreciate your time.
In the 7th Seal, the Trumpets are introduced. This Seal signifies the last days of the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The Trumpets sound at the very last hour of the Tribulation. Then the Bowls of the Wrath of God are found in the last Trumpet. It is that last hour that is referred to as The Day of The Lord or Day of His Wrath. See 14:7.
In any case, Genesis 37:9 is a reference to people, more specifically, Joseph's brothers. Now, although the reference in Judges 5:20 appears to be to Angels, it is more specifically a reference to earthly Kings at war.
In Revelation 22:16, Jesus refers to Himself as The Bright and Morning Star.
Joel 2:10 seems to be speaking of more than just stars. It is speaks of the powerful and influential, whose luster, whose brightness, whose power, appeal and influence are diminished by the army of God. But who is that army? It is an army of people.
Again, who is the star in Revelation 9:1?
I hope this answers your question. But keep in mind that in everyday speak and historically, we sometimes refer to prominent people as stars, too.
Thanks for asking. It would be good to hear your opinion on this also.
Hi, Jesse. I am by no means an authority on these things, but a cursory review of the use of stars in the Bible show their use can be literal or symbolic. In Isaiah 13:10, the meaning appears to be literal. Yet in Revelation it is figurative.
In Genesis, for example, God created the stars. These are the astronomical bodies we observe at night. However, sometimes things said in the Bible have a double meaning. A star can represent an actual star, while at the same time, there is an underlying allusion to Angels, people in positions of leadership or authority.
In Revelation 12:4, we see a reference to Angels, while in 12:1 the stars represent something else. Some commentators agree that 12:1 is a symbolic reference to the 12 Apostles. Here we have a reference to Christ and the devil. Genesis tells us, in keeping with this passage, that Satan and his angels were cast to earth. Daniel 8 is also supportive of this interpretation.
In Revelation 8:10-12 we see how stars may take on other meanings. Is the star an angel, a meteor, an earthly leader or what some might call an environmental catastrophe, the result of pollution and adverse weather conditions?
Keep in mind, while reading Revelation, that what is written is not outlined in chronological sequence. There is a back and forth in time, that may make understanding particularly difficult. So, what Revelation 8 or 12 or other Chapters reveal, are not necessarily sequential events. The same is true for the rest of the book.
But if you notice, in the 6th Seal, in Chapter 6:13, the stars are cast down. And everyone is afraid and all hide. The symbolism of the stars here, while many mistake them for literal stars, is about governments, powers, authorities and war.
In the 7th Seal, the Trumpets are introduced. This Seal signifies the last days of the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The Trumpets sound at the very last hour of the Tribulation. Then the Bowls of the Wrath of God are found in the last Trumpet.
I agree with you that Matthew 24 is speaking about end time events. Both Chapters 24 and 25 give us the details. You've shared some good information here. The only thing I would see differently is that Jesus is giving us the specific details of a future event, but not giving us the specific time. We don't know the time, only the events that are coming.
Also, from your last statement, it looks like you are saying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation? Well, if we are still alive on this earth when that time comes, I want wish you luck. I plan on being raptured well before that time when God's wrath will be poured out in judgement on a non-believing world.
Are these stars maybe referencing angels and not people? In the book of Revelation, the stars are making reference to angels, spirit beings. It is interesting that Jesus had a star, and it was a special star. In Matthew Chapter 2, it was called "His star."
I am wondering, and I have no scriptural evidence of this, but I am just wondering if that was the same star (Angel) that ministered to Jesus while He was out in the wilderness for 40 days? Honestly, I do not know the answer to that. It's just a thought!
Carlos Ramirez Trevio on Matthew 24:29 - 3 years ago
A study of the metaphorical reference to stars in the Bible, shows that stars are iften a reference to people, not just physical heavenly bodies, such as stars, meteors, planets.
Interesting observation by Peter Walton on an event that occurred in 1833, when the earth was showered with a spectacular display of meteors penetrating the atmosphere.
But is that what Christ was referencing in Matthew 24, when He spoke of stars falling to earth?
Is the reference to stars a reference to actual meteors, or is it a metaphorical reference to something else?
I think a study of Revelation and other passages in Scripture will lead us to the conclusion that the stars, in the context of Matthew 24, was more a reference to people in positions of leadership. Don't we often, for example, refer to someone with great talent or accomplishments as a Star?
See Numbers 24:17, for example. Here, Jesus is described as a star. See also Daniel 12:3. The reference to the stars, just as to the Sun and the Moon, might best be understood as a reference to people, governments, heads of state, people of influence.
Carlos Ramirez Trevio on Matthew 24:29 - 3 years ago
To better understand Matthew 24, we should start by reading verses 29-30, then go back to the beginning. And as we read and examine the admonitions of Christ in this Chapter, we should keep reflecting on these two pivotal verses.
It is unquestionably the case, that Matthew is written for the followers of Christ. Whether the theme is the Jewish lineage of Christ or fulfillment of OT Messianic prophecy, Matthew was written for the Believer.
And that is how the Chapter begins. Christ outlines the events preceding His Return and the end of the age. These are two conjunctive events that are dependent on eachother.
This is the only place in the entire Bible where it identifies a specific time for the Return of Christ. And it is Christ Himself who tells us, His Disciples, when He will Return.
First, He identifies several things that will happen. One is the spread of the Gospel throughout the world. Then the Revelation of the AntiChrist, as he sits in the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God.
Daniel 7-9, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13, among others, help put this in perspective for us. The Abomination, the AntiChrist enters the Temple to desecrate it, in the middle of the week. That is, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation.
The act that desecrates the Temple, initiates the Great Tribulation. That latter half of the 7 year Tribulation will last approximately 3 1/2 years more.
Then, Jesus emphasizes, then and only then, you will see me Return. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions. I will Return IMMEDIATELY AFTER all these things. Not before, AFTER. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation of those days.
Keep in mind that this is the only place in the entire Bible were we are given a specific time for the Return of Jesus. And it is Jesus Himself who tells us. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions.
After the Great Tribulation we will be gathered up to meet Jesus in the air. See similarities in language with 1 Thess 4 and others.
Winter is very severe in Jerusalem. It even snows. Jesus says but also neither on the Sabbath day.
You see, Jesus is talking to Jews. He is talking to Orthodox Jews, and only Orthodox Jews. If it happens on the Sabbath Day, they can only go a thousand yards, and then they have to stop. They can't go any further than that, so they have to wait until sundown.
So he says to pray that it is not during winter, nor on the Sabbath Day, because you will have a rough time.
Why then do you persecute and mock the Son of Man upon the Sabbath. Is he not Lord over the Sabbath. He has not hidden anything from you but invites you to observe his comings and goings and see ye then the Heavenly Father show approval by various miracles and wonders performed by God in Heaven. He has within him the Holy Spirit yet he is under order to remind the world to fear God as well.
John, that portion in Matthew 24 was Jesus' teaching to His disciples about the Tribulation & His Second Coming. I fully realize that many Christians attribute some of these portions of Jesus' teaching on His Second Coming, to the Church's preparedness for Anti-Christ, Great Tribulation & Rapture. However, I stand stoically on these portions, that the Lord actually described aspects of the Tribulation, & has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church. The Rapture = Snatching Away, of believers was what was revealed to the apostle Paul (1 Thes 4:13-18; 5:1-11): refers to Christ's coming to snatch away His Church before the Great Tribulation comes upon the unbelieving world.
So, looking at Mt 24:20, I understand that Jesus was referring to the Jews at the time of Anti-Christ & the Great Tribulation, that they were to flee as fast as they could to hide from the desolation that was to take place. So the prayer that their flight (fleeing) would not be in Winter on a Sabbath day, was simply because of the harsh conditions of Winter & the legal requirements prohibiting travel, work & effort on the Sabbath for the Jews. So, rest assured that you won't need to be concerned about your flight into the hills, but the other imploring messages by the apostles, that our flight into the air to meet the Lord, will be certain because of our real & precious faith.
I know things are hectic this year. But what does it matter that I should pray that my flight not be on the the Sabbath? Is it some how bad if We run for the hills on the Sabbath? I can understand winter. But why Sabbath?
David S Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing?
It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from
whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
(first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Reference the recent exchanges on this scripture as between Vicki and Chris, there seems to be an assumption that the event in question is the onset of the millennial reign of Christ about which I am uncertain although some biblical commentators also make that assumption. It seems more likely that it is a reference to the 'rapture' ( 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4) but I may be wrong. The problem possibly arises due to the fact (if I may say) that the church generally seems confused as to what is meant by the 'second coming' in that this is not a biblical term any more than the rapture is. Scripture does not give the 'rapture' a specific identification although the 'millennial' is termed the 'thousand years reign'.
However, what we do know is that the millennial reign will commence some seven years after the rapture about which we do not know the timing. So effectively, the scripture in Matthew and Mark may refer to either or both. As we don't know when the rapture will take place, we cannot know about the timing of millennium either. The real mystery is why is it that does Christ not know and more importantly, how He does not know.
Additionally, is there a relationship between the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord?
No apology needed. It just seemed sort of odd when I saw that because all your previous posts have all been very cordial. I have actually had that happen to one of my posts where things got added in that I did not type.
I think the most important thing concerning the rapture is that we both agree that there will be a rapture. We don't have to agree with each other on the time.
There are Pre/Mid/Post rapture believers and they all have scripture to back up why they take one of those three positions.
Like I said to Bob, I don't have an issue with whatever of the three positions someone chooses to take.
Why is the rapture a hotly contested thing? That is a great question Bob. We could also ask why do we disagree on anything the Bible has to say? Believers disagree on all sorts of things that the Bible teaches.
I think disagreements become hotly contested when those in disagreement with each other take the attitude of "I'm right, and you're wrong." It's called human pride. We take our understanding of scripture and we turn ourselves into "Bible scholars." You know, it's like the "Thus saith Jesse," or "Thus saith Bob" approach.
I think another reason why believers disagree with each other so often is because we study our English bibles, and English is such a general language, much like Hebrew.
We can come away with multiple meanings on what the English text is saying because there are multiple meanings to English words. Honestly, I think that's why we have so many denominational churches out there. It's because people can't agree on what the English text is saying.
I think it was God's design that our New Testament be originally written in Greek. Greek is the most exact language there is, and you don't come away with multiple meanings on what the text is saying like we do with the English.
Anyways, that's my thoughts on your question.
I am curious though. If the Tribulation period comes in our lifetime, what will your role be during those 7 years? I don't think it will be to spread the gospel. God already has a plan for that. What will be your function on this earth when God's wrath is being poured out?
We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?
In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation. If you find it let me know.
Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Jesse no one believed in pre trib until 1830 AD believe what you wish but it makes a difference. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt it. Question: How many million Christian died in communism the last 100 years?
I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and I have never once made the claim that there is a second phase of the first resurrection listed in Revelation 20:4-6. Did someone tell you that? There is only one rapture of the church and it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and it takes place prior to the 7 year tribulation period. That is my understanding, and not just mine, but many others.
If you want to believe you will go through God's wrath during the tribulation period, if it happens during our lifetime, I don't have a problem with that. Really, I don't. I don't know why it would bother you that I believe in a pre-trib rapture? From my understanding in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God has not appointed us believers unto wrath, so I do not believe that God is going to pour His judgment out on any believer.
Again, if you believe you're going to be there when His wrath is being poured out, I don't have an issue with that. If I may ask, since you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, are you mid-trib, or post-trib? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with what you are saying. And I hope you are not accusing me of adding to the bible. You are also in disagreement with me, but I would never make such an accusation against anyone for simply disagreeing with my understanding.
In any case, there is no reason to believe that the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, since 2:6 is abundantly clear. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM.... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
As I previously mentioned, the AntiChrist doesn't sit in the Holy of Holies to proclaim himself God until the middle of the 7 years week. Daniel 7-12 and Matthew 24 make that clear. But the Rapture is not in the middle of the week. Jesus emphasizes He will come, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation Matt24:21, 29. The 7 years Tribulation begins. Three years into it, the AntiChrist crowns himself God in the Temple. "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and never shall be."
What happens after the AntiChrist sits in the Temple? The Great Tribulation. Then what happens? Matt24, Daniel 7-12, 2Thess2. The Gathering. The Rapture. Therefore, according to what has been said in the cited passages, when is the Rapture?
First of all, there is no distinction drawn whatsoever in the OT or New, between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Jesus never mentions it. And in fact, the only time He speaks of it is in Matt24, Mk13 and Lk21. In 2Thess2, Paul reiterates what Christ said.
So where does the distinction between the 2nd Coming and the Rapture come from? Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture comes from the inference drawn from Revelation 1-3. There is no actual statement referred to, other than that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3. Somehow, that is taken to mean the Church disappears, although nothing actually suggests such a thing. The conclusion drawn that Believers are Raptured, from absence of a mention of the Church again, is fallacious. No such conclusion is warranted.
However, what is rarely mentioned is there will be Believers, consequently a thriving Church, during the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. Compare Rev11:4-12 and 1:20. See also Rev13:10, "Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." 14:10-12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." 6:9, 12:11, 17, 20:4. Rev7:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Another specious argument is that Saints refers to Jews, not Christians. But that is debunked by Philemon1:5, Rev17:6, "I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus."
The fact remains that nothing anywhere refers to a PreTrib Rapture. The language and images for the Rapture are the same in Matt, These, Rev and Daniel 7-12 on Restrainer.
In Revelation 20:4-6 the last book of the Bible there are only 2 more FUTURE Resurrections (Raptures) spoken of: after the 2 witnesses appear
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. rapture
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In the above scriptures, these are the Martyrs. John said "this is the first resurrection." John didn't say this is the "second phase of the first resurrection," as pre-tribbers claim.
If this is the FIRST resurrection, can there be a resurrection before this one? Of course not, unless you want to ADD to the bible
The First Resurrection is of the dead in Christ and the Second is after 1000 years. Paul wrote that the Dead in Christ MUST rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 ...and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST
17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
In Rev. 20:4-5, John sees the souls of Saints who were BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. John writes that they will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years and that this is the FIRST RESURRECTION!
the beheaded rise in the FIRST resurrection and Paul said those who are alive and remain are not caught up until AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, then this comes at the end of the tribulation.
First I want to address the areas you place in all caps because right away those are the areas that catch my attention. Either you are trying to emphasize your point, or you are trying to show me something you think I do not understand. First, you say He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. I believe that's accurate. And then you say Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple. I agree with that. And then you say after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR. Again, I agree. And you also say there is only ONE Second Coming. I'm fully aware of that. And then finally you say PREPARE! Hello. What is the hello? Would that be the same as saying Duh?
We both agree that there is one second coming of Christ. And we both agree that it will be after the 7 year Tribulation period. What we disagree on is the time of the rapture of the church. I think our understanding of what takes place at His second coming differs. What I am gathering from you is that you see us being raptured at His second coming. Would that be a safe assumption on my part?
I see His second coming and the rapture of the church as being two separate events. When He comes for the church at the rapture, we meet Him in the air. He does not step down onto the earth at that time. At His second coming, after the 7 year Tribulation, that is when He steps foot on the earth. Plus, at His second coming, we come back with Him. There is no rapture at His second coming.
The Great Tribulation, last 3-1/2 years, is going to be a time of such wrath upon this earth like we have never seen before. We can't even begin to imagine how horrible a time it's going to be. During the time of God's wrath being poured out, there is no mention of the church being on the earth, only ungodly unbelievers.
I commend you for doing a careful study of the scripture. That's what we are all supposed to do, right?
He further tells us that the day of His return will not be until after the Abomination (AntiChrist) sits in the Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself above God. See Daniel 12. That abominable act doesn't happen until 3 years after the 7 years Tribulation period begins. Consequently, if Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple, then Christ won't come at the start of the 7 years Tribulation.
In addition, Christ adds to that that after the AntiChrist exalts himself in the Temple Holy of Holies, there will be what is known as the last 3 years of the 7 years Tribulation. He calls that the Great Tribulation. Throughout the discourse, Christ warns us not to be fooled when people tell us that Christ is here or there.
Then Jesus goes on to tell us that after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR.
There is no other place in the entire Bible where we are told when Christ will return, except this. And it is Jesus Himself telling us. This is borne out by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2, which is almost a repetition of Matthew 24.
Unfortunately, the 100 years old teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is deceptive. I too used to think that was the way it was, because that's what I was taught. But a careful study of Scripture shows the opposite. The arguments for it fail the test of logic, reality and more significantly, Scripture. I am not criticizing. I am just pointing it out. Any study of the Rapture, as presented in 1 Thes 4, should begin with Matthew 24:29. There is only ONE Second Coming and it won't be in stages. That is why Christ immediately transitions to the Virgins of Matthew 25. PREPARE!
Thanks for your time and response. I agree that the word star or stars can be used as literal stars or used symbolically. I've never spent much time researching every reference to the word star or stars so I have nothing much to share in this area. I think you've answered my question and I do appreciate your time.
In the 7th Seal, the Trumpets are introduced. This Seal signifies the last days of the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The Trumpets sound at the very last hour of the Tribulation. Then the Bowls of the Wrath of God are found in the last Trumpet. It is that last hour that is referred to as The Day of The Lord or Day of His Wrath. See 14:7.
In any case, Genesis 37:9 is a reference to people, more specifically, Joseph's brothers. Now, although the reference in Judges 5:20 appears to be to Angels, it is more specifically a reference to earthly Kings at war.
In Revelation 22:16, Jesus refers to Himself as The Bright and Morning Star.
Joel 2:10 seems to be speaking of more than just stars. It is speaks of the powerful and influential, whose luster, whose brightness, whose power, appeal and influence are diminished by the army of God. But who is that army? It is an army of people.
Again, who is the star in Revelation 9:1?
I hope this answers your question. But keep in mind that in everyday speak and historically, we sometimes refer to prominent people as stars, too.
Thanks for asking. It would be good to hear your opinion on this also.
Carlos Ramirez Trevio
In Genesis, for example, God created the stars. These are the astronomical bodies we observe at night. However, sometimes things said in the Bible have a double meaning. A star can represent an actual star, while at the same time, there is an underlying allusion to Angels, people in positions of leadership or authority.
In Revelation 12:4, we see a reference to Angels, while in 12:1 the stars represent something else. Some commentators agree that 12:1 is a symbolic reference to the 12 Apostles. Here we have a reference to Christ and the devil. Genesis tells us, in keeping with this passage, that Satan and his angels were cast to earth. Daniel 8 is also supportive of this interpretation.
In Revelation 8:10-12 we see how stars may take on other meanings. Is the star an angel, a meteor, an earthly leader or what some might call an environmental catastrophe, the result of pollution and adverse weather conditions?
Keep in mind, while reading Revelation, that what is written is not outlined in chronological sequence. There is a back and forth in time, that may make understanding particularly difficult. So, what Revelation 8 or 12 or other Chapters reveal, are not necessarily sequential events. The same is true for the rest of the book.
But if you notice, in the 6th Seal, in Chapter 6:13, the stars are cast down. And everyone is afraid and all hide. The symbolism of the stars here, while many mistake them for literal stars, is about governments, powers, authorities and war.
In the 7th Seal, the Trumpets are introduced. This Seal signifies the last days of the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The Trumpets sound at the very last hour of the Tribulation. Then the Bowls of the Wrath of God are found in the last Trumpet.
I agree with you that Matthew 24 is speaking about end time events. Both Chapters 24 and 25 give us the details. You've shared some good information here. The only thing I would see differently is that Jesus is giving us the specific details of a future event, but not giving us the specific time. We don't know the time, only the events that are coming.
Also, from your last statement, it looks like you are saying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation? Well, if we are still alive on this earth when that time comes, I want wish you luck. I plan on being raptured well before that time when God's wrath will be poured out in judgement on a non-believing world.
Are these stars maybe referencing angels and not people? In the book of Revelation, the stars are making reference to angels, spirit beings. It is interesting that Jesus had a star, and it was a special star. In Matthew Chapter 2, it was called "His star."
I am wondering, and I have no scriptural evidence of this, but I am just wondering if that was the same star (Angel) that ministered to Jesus while He was out in the wilderness for 40 days? Honestly, I do not know the answer to that. It's just a thought!
See examples in:
Revelation 1:20
Jude 1:13
Nahum 3:16
Judges 5:20
Revelation 9:1
But is that what Christ was referencing in Matthew 24, when He spoke of stars falling to earth?
Is the reference to stars a reference to actual meteors, or is it a metaphorical reference to something else?
I think a study of Revelation and other passages in Scripture will lead us to the conclusion that the stars, in the context of Matthew 24, was more a reference to people in positions of leadership. Don't we often, for example, refer to someone with great talent or accomplishments as a Star?
See Numbers 24:17, for example. Here, Jesus is described as a star. See also Daniel 12:3. The reference to the stars, just as to the Sun and the Moon, might best be understood as a reference to people, governments, heads of state, people of influence.
Jesus was the Bright and Morning Star.
It is unquestionably the case, that Matthew is written for the followers of Christ. Whether the theme is the Jewish lineage of Christ or fulfillment of OT Messianic prophecy, Matthew was written for the Believer.
And that is how the Chapter begins. Christ outlines the events preceding His Return and the end of the age. These are two conjunctive events that are dependent on eachother.
This is the only place in the entire Bible where it identifies a specific time for the Return of Christ. And it is Christ Himself who tells us, His Disciples, when He will Return.
First, He identifies several things that will happen. One is the spread of the Gospel throughout the world. Then the Revelation of the AntiChrist, as he sits in the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God.
Daniel 7-9, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13, among others, help put this in perspective for us. The Abomination, the AntiChrist enters the Temple to desecrate it, in the middle of the week. That is, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation.
The act that desecrates the Temple, initiates the Great Tribulation. That latter half of the 7 year Tribulation will last approximately 3 1/2 years more.
Then, Jesus emphasizes, then and only then, you will see me Return. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions. I will Return IMMEDIATELY AFTER all these things. Not before, AFTER. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation of those days.
Keep in mind that this is the only place in the entire Bible were we are given a specific time for the Return of Jesus. And it is Jesus Himself who tells us. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions.
After the Great Tribulation we will be gathered up to meet Jesus in the air. See similarities in language with 1 Thess 4 and others.
Christ knows now
Winter is very severe in Jerusalem. It even snows. Jesus says but also neither on the Sabbath day.
You see, Jesus is talking to Jews. He is talking to Orthodox Jews, and only Orthodox Jews. If it happens on the Sabbath Day, they can only go a thousand yards, and then they have to stop. They can't go any further than that, so they have to wait until sundown.
So he says to pray that it is not during winter, nor on the Sabbath Day, because you will have a rough time.
So, looking at Mt 24:20, I understand that Jesus was referring to the Jews at the time of Anti-Christ & the Great Tribulation, that they were to flee as fast as they could to hide from the desolation that was to take place. So the prayer that their flight (fleeing) would not be in Winter on a Sabbath day, was simply because of the harsh conditions of Winter & the legal requirements prohibiting travel, work & effort on the Sabbath for the Jews. So, rest assured that you won't need to be concerned about your flight into the hills, but the other imploring messages by the apostles, that our flight into the air to meet the Lord, will be certain because of our real & precious faith.
It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from
whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
(first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
However, what we do know is that the millennial reign will commence some seven years after the rapture about which we do not know the timing. So effectively, the scripture in Matthew and Mark may refer to either or both. As we don't know when the rapture will take place, we cannot know about the timing of millennium either. The real mystery is why is it that does Christ not know and more importantly, how He does not know.