Pre-trib teachers have had this verse wrong at least since 1948. They totally ignored the synoptic gospels and that Luke gave an extra detail that shows us Jesus is merely talking about the signs He previously gave in the preceding verses and Israel becoming a nation wasn't ONE of those signs. Reread Matthew 24. You won't find it. It was added to the text to make their teaching fit. Woe unto anyone adding to God's Word. Most of the smarter teachers do not say that is Israel anymore because guys like me called them out on it and they know we will bring up the "fig tree being cursed" passage that is talking about Israel.
Read the whole chapters of Matthew 21, 22, and 23 the many warnings of time running out for you and the 7 woes of Matthew 23 given by Jesus Himself before He prophecies their destruction.
I will show you the first major problem I ran into with verses that were being used to support pre-trib teaching and it is one of many. I shelved all my unaccredited Bible College years and 30+ years of study on my own and just started reading the scriptures and asking God for truth.
Let's take this passage for example. This one woke me up. I can give dozens more but let's just go with this one brother.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Pre-trib teachers will say that this "fig tree" here is Israel yet it has absolutely nothing to do with Israel as it is metaphoric language and just mean ALL THESE SIGNS = MY PHSYICAL RETURN. That is what a metaphor is and usually has the word "like", like as" or "such" to show it is making a comparison. Now follow me here. This isn't rocket science by any means. I then went to Luke and it proves what I am saying here. Read the passage slowly and you will see the problem. We brush over things very fast sometimes and miss it.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
We have that nasty phrase "...and all the trees;" in verse 29 looking us square in the face and shows this passage is not even talking about any nation.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Who was Jesus talking to here? - Peter, James, Andrew and John. That is how Jesus started His whole discourse which the end part of Matthew 21, 22, 23 and most of beginning of 24. Always ask yourself when reading a passage, What is the What?, Who are the Who?, When was the When?, Where was the Where, and What is the Why? Then make sure you read the context. You cannot get the FULL context of chapter 24 without reading the 3 previous chapters. You will miss a lot. It is all of the Olivette Discourse. You read Matthew 24 alone and you will believe and teach a lot of things incorrectly.
There is only ONE group of Jews that I am aware of today that strictly stick to the Old Testament. They are Kirite Jews and very few. The rest of the religious ones hold to the unsaved rabbinical teachings - Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara and is why they are unsaved. Those writings are commentaries- useless at best. 50% to 68% of Jews living in Israel today, yes today, are atheist or irreligious as their own media if you ever read their own online newspaper columns admits. So if you think they are going to read the New Testament, unless they converted to Christianity, it isn't going to happen. It will be way too late for them and after the fact when they do. The antichrist will be there soon.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my w
I am going to have to do this in four or five parts since you are only allowed to write 2000 characters at a time.
PART 1:
Yes Matthew wrote with the Jewish mindset but so did Paul when he wrote Hebrews but it is for all of God's people. They key is WHO were these warnings given to? Obviously, those who follow Jesus so to say they are for future people who are only going to get the warnings AFTER it is too late just don't hold water. There are only ONE people of God EVER both in the Old and New Testaments. Abraham was a Syrian. He also had gentile servants. Joseph married an Egyptian and had two half-breeds Manasseh and Ephraim. 430 years later, the Israelites came out of Egypt a MIXED people the Bible teaches. It has always been about being in the covenant.
Matthew 24 was written for every generation and for THAT GENERATION of Jews especially still living in Jerusalem who God would save 40 years later when He destroyed Jerusalem through Prince Titus thus fulfilling Daniel 9 and Matthew 23 and Matthew 21. So this is a poor argument at best. There were synagogues throughout the Roman Empire that many Gentiles went to as you can see over and over in the Book of Acts. Here is just ONE of 20 verses in Acts alone.
Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
Matthew merely wrote what Mark 13 and Luke 21 say. These other gospels were written by two of Paul's missionary companions in which Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles". To say that Matthew was only FOR Jews because it was written with the Jewish mindset, you have to throw out the Book of Hebrews, the Book of James, the Book of Revelation (the most Old Testament TYPOLOGY book in the New Testament), and the entire Old Testament. The question is "WHO would be the ones to read it"? Only the followers of Jesus are ever going to read it.
Appreciate that. I have about 200 pages of notes fine-tuning things I have learned over the last 5 to 7 years. The Holy Spirit has really opened my eyes on this subject.
If you type in PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: TRUE OR FALSE? I am buried even though that is my channel name. try typing in one of my actual video names. here it is Questionnaire Poll on YOUR view of End Times Theology
EXACTLY THIS WAY IN THE YOUTUBE SEARCH BOX, YOU SHOULD FIND ME.
Thumbnail picture should say "End Times Theology with Brother Bob" in this video. I corrected the thumbnail but they still have the top letters chopped off for some reason. Let me know if this works. It should as I just tried it. Get many others to join if you can.
Good answer. Something that came to mind is people accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath by healing someone, etc. You can be assured by Jesus' example that Jesus would not get a mark of the beast if He were on earth at that time. He would refuse and put them in their place. When Jesus was arrested he had an opportunity to make it easier by doing and saying politically correct things they wanted, but he didn't. Also satan tempted Jesus 3 times and he resisted. God comes first above man's law. If you put man first above God, it shows where your priorities are and you will be judged accordingly in the end.
The Bible. A preacher isn't necessary for someone to follow Jesus. Preachers don't save anyone, Jesus does. People can easily learn about Jesus from the Bible.
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Revelation Chapter 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
I am in total agreement with you, Danny Donaldson. What happens is that some Christians think the Rapture is before the Tribulation so, they have to somehow account for Christians killed during the Tribulation for their testimony of Christ. However, they also claim, erroneously, that the Holy Spirit is taken away. They completely overlook the fact that what Christ said will apply even through the Tribulation. Everyone who believes is sealed with the Spirit of Promise. So while on the one hand they say Christians are Raptured, the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken away before the Tribulation, on the other hand they claim there will be a Church during the Tribulation. Problem is, they don't consider Believers converted during the Tribulation to be part of the Church.
Two other problems with that position are that if the Holy Spirit is taken away, who will convict sinners of sin? Who will Seal new Believers? Who will lead them into Truth? If the Church is taken away, who will spread the message of Christ? How can they believe without a preacher?
Most significantly, however, is that their position is not realistic. It is a fantasy developed from conjecture and feelings, rather than Scripture. What Scripture can they produce to support their point of view? None. Because there aren't any. The only places where the Bible tells us when the Rapture is going to be are all based on Christ's revelation that it will be Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
Unfortunately, their argument is superficial and based on unsubstantiated supposition. So you are exactly right, Danny. I was almost kicked out of a Bible Institute because I dared question the Administrator about the time of the Second Coming. And that was before I knew the difference. And after I preached a sermon based on Salvation by Grace, borrowed from Charles Spurgeon, the Pastor stood up, called me a liar, and told congregants not to believe anything I said. But Spurgeon was right. And so are you.
You need to put The Mark in the search box as you enter this website and read all of the scriptures and even the whole chapter, to have a working knowledge of it.
If you take it, there will be no way to gain entrance to heaven, ever.
If you don't take it, you may be executed.
Best option is to be born again today!
Go watch Dwight Thompson on youtube, preaching 'what to do if you miss the rapture'. It's an old sermon but it's very relevant. I met Dwight; he's an evangelist. He cares about people's souls. You can pray the sinners prayer at the end of the sermon.
Don't get side tracked by OPINIONS of other people.
If this happens in our lifetime and you are still here, you are going to have two choices: either take the mark of the beast and (maybe) live for another 3-1/2 years, or refuse to take the mark. Those are your two choices. If you take the mark, you will be part of the antichrist's religious and economic system, which will allow you to buy food and the things you need to survive for that short period of time. Taking that mark will also mean that you have chosen to worship the antichrist. But if you refuse to take the mark, you will be killed, probably beheaded. But just keep in mind that if you choose to take the mark to save your life here, you will no longer have an opportunity for salvation. If you take the mark, you will end up in the lake of fire. If you are faced with that decision, you might want to choose Christ!
They each may have taught different things, but the gospel message did not change. Paul's teachings are also the teachings of Christ, as Paul was taught one-on-one directly from Christ.
Jesse, It's OK. You can believe anything you want. It does't mean you are less of a Christian. I am just stating what I understand. But don't let it upset you. I could be wrong. What's important is Christ, not whether we understand or agree on every detail of Scripture. Good talking to you.
I totally agree with you on this matter i believe the rapture will take place after the great tribulation. I even asked my pastor about it. He said that. Its for the ones that believe after the rapture and come to christ. But my reply is. There is only 1 2nd coming of christ not 3
I know we are to follow the laws of the land but when they come out with the law to take the mark of the beast what do we do ? Do we still follow the law or break it
I suppose that's where we differ. You believe that the message Christ was giving in Matt. 24-25 was to the church, and I believe He was giving this warning to the Jewish people. I can share my basis of belief, but like I said, what would be the use since I'm sure you will shoot down whatever it is that draws me to the conclusion of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I asked you in a previous thread, the one that got shut down, why do you continue hounding me about the rapture? How long are you going to drag this on? I do not have an issue with you because you believe in Post Trib. Why would you have an issue with me?
Jesse, the reason I emphasize the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, is because I believer Christ was telling us to prepare for the Tribulation. So if during the Tribulation they say, Christ is here or there, don't believe them. The message Christ delivered in Matt 24-25 is, Be Prepared for the Tribulation you are going to go through. The question remains, how do we prepare Spiritually, Physically, Socially, Politically, Psychologically?
But since you think you will be taken out before that, what is your Biblical basis for that belief? Are there Scriptures you can point to that are not directly related or a repetition of what Christ describes in Matt 24?
comments on free will by Alex.Jesus said whosoever sins is the servant of sin, the word servant implies bondage only Christ can make us free whom the son sets free is free indeed.Even Paul had no free will he said when i wd do good evil is present with me and the evil i wd not do is what i do. Oh wretched man that i am.With my mind i serve the law of God but with my flesh the law of sin.Paul was tied up in a place where 2 ways meet just like the donkey and her colt was tied up in a place where 2 ways meet ( the flesh and the spirit ) the wheat and the tares thus a warfare in our minds. But there is no condemnation to them in christ jesus. The law cd not set man free David comes to mind our carnal minds cannot be set free from sin till this corruption puts on incorruption AND THIS MORTAL PUTS ON IMMORTALITY WHEN WE ARE CHANGED when the kingdom comes etc.The kingdom will come via the donkey and her colt which is the woman and her offspring her child being the H.G. as that which is born of the spirit is SPIRIT thats our colt th H.G. our offspring which is born of the spirit th Word when ya see the world in travail and birth pains rejoice greatly thats how the kingdom will come via the woman and her child unless ya receive the kingdom as a lil child etc. Thats y jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light spritually speaking we are the donkey thats y they put their clothes on the donkey and her colt we be the donkey. The kingdom came with the donkey and her colt Jesus was her rider.No man can ride this donkey but JESUS SIMPLY B/C SHE IS THE CHURCH.GBU
Yes, I do recall Paul's letter. It was written to several churches in Asia Minor, in the region of Galatia, written because the false teachers came in and attacked Paul's ministry and message. The Judaizers professed to be believers in Jesus as Messiah, but their doctrinal approach was that the Gentiles are not in a position of Sons of the Covenant to receive the promises of God until they became Jews and they follow the Law. Paul corrected that.
You ask if the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? It was specifically given to Jesus' disciples. There were multitudes that gathered and were listening in; But Jesus specifically was giving this sermon to His disciples only. Now, are there things in Matthew Chapters 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that we Gentiles can benefit from? I would say yes. And if you recall in one of my previous responses, I already said that. But there are also things written specifically to the Jews that the church today tries to apply to believers that do not apply to the church. There are many teachings found in Matthew that are not found in the other Gospels. That's because Matthew's Gospel specifically pertains to the Jews.
Baptism? The Jews were baptizing long before the church came into existence. Was the O.T. for the Jews only? Originally yes, it was given to the Jews and only the Jews. We have it in our bibles today so that we can study History and Prophecy. It is the history of God working through and in His people, the children of Israel, and prophecy about the coming Messiah.
You keep bringing up that Christ is coming after the Great Tribulation. Is there a reason? I already agreed to that. Concerning the rapture, we will just have to remain in disagreement with each other on the timing. I can layout every reason why I believe in Pre-Trib, but what good would that do? There are at least three views, and no matter what view a person takes, they have scripture to back up their view, and then it becomes "I'm right, and you're wrong!"
Tim Moriaty, you're right. Matt 24:37-38 are stating what conditions will be like prior to the Coming of Christ. However, it is tightly woven into Matt 24:29. Chapters 24-25 are a Warning. In that Warning, Christ happens to mention when we can expect His return, which is Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."
"Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matt 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
It goes like this:
1. AntiChrist ascends to Power
2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple
3. The Great Tribulation
4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)
5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture
There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
To everyone who responded to my initial question; Between some of your responses, coupled with an email dialog I had with a knowledgeable friend, here is my final thought including my friends previous email (this forum hit the character limit so I could only paste so much of his:
HI Jeff,
Based on your response coupled with all the other research I have done I also conclude that is it SOMEWHAT both, but with a primary and secondary interpretation. I think when a verse is confusing it is best to "keep it simple" and keep it in "context". I am thinking that when one takes v38 completely in context (especially pertaining to v37 which is telling the people at the time about the day Jesus the "Son of Man" is returning - as it relates to all the things above v 4-35) that the primary conclusion is that it is not specifically(primarily) talking about the Rapture. As we know, a lot of the bible is written to specific people at a specific time, but that also the "principal/concept" can have applications for others.
.long story to say: based on scriptural face value, it is not addressing the Rapture, but the concept of being "prepared" can apply to anyone in the church age, especially for those at the time of the anticipated Rapture.
Oh and if we take it on scriptural face value, then even though we don't understand it, we have to believe that the people affected will somehow be living life as "normal", where "normal" could be a way of saying they wont care enough to be ready.
Thanks again,
Tim
Hi Tim
Very good question. This is a question I struggled with for a very long time.
I believe that the context of Matt 24/25 is the tribulation AND the second coming. That all the events of Matt 24 are related to the time of the 7 year tribulation leading up to the second coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years. Matt 25 and the Sheep and Goat judgment is also the second coming when "the son of man comes in his glory"......
Jesse, thanks for your insight. I wasn't aware of some of the interesting details you mention. What I understand is that Matthew was written for Believers in a Jewish setting. If you recall from Paul's admonitions to the Church in Galatia, there seemed to be a lot of confusion as to what a follower of Christ was was supposed to do. There was a vacuum of knowledge and understanding. Jewish Believers needed guidance. Were they still Jewish? Who exactly was Christ? What were His teachings?
Most of the people Christ addressed were Jewish non-believers. Does that mean that the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? Or that only Jews were to heed Christ's instruction for the Passover Communion? If you recall, there were no Gentiles present at the Passover. Or how about Baptism? Was that only for the Jews? Or the OT, is that for Jews only? Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Peter to the Jews. Does that mean we don't take anything Peter said as applicable to Gentiles?
Matthew 24 is no more for the Jews only, than the rest of the Bible. The message is to everyone, but even more specifically for the Followers of Christ. Matthew 24:29, whether for Jews or Gentiles, is the only, the only place in the entire Bible that pin points the Return of Christ. And in it, Christ Himself says He is coming after the Great Tribulation. Jewish or not, that is a piece of information valuable to everyone. Daniel 7-12 was written to the Jews, but not for the Jews. It was written for everyone, most particularly, for Believers in Christ.
If you do a careful study of The Day of the Lord, you will find it is limited to the last moment of the Great Tribulation, not the last 3 1/2 years. Same as Wrath. You don't, but many Christians think of the entire Tribulation as The Day of the Lord. But what you say about the Rapture is what Jesus says in Matt 24:29-31. And it happens Immediately After the Great Tribulation. 1 These 4 says the same thing, but doesn't specify, as Christ did.
Chris, If you believe the tree was an actual unique tree, perhaps it wasn't a corrupt tree. You bring up a good point. But why would God tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit if there was nothing wrong with it? Keep in mind that if the tree is an actual tree, then its fruit is an actual fruit which imparted knowledge with one single bite. So God protected the Tree of Life, but what does the Bible say happened to the Tree of Knowledge? As an aside, here is another example of allegory. Ps 104:4, Heb 1:7, "Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire."" So, if that is literal, how long were the Angels there protecting the Tree of Life? And if these trees are no longer there, were they cut down? What happened to them? Did more trees of knowledge grow there?
Your comparison between Adam and God in the Flesh (Jesus) is questionable. Christ came with a Pre-Determined Purpose. Christ is God. Christ was Mature and fully prepared. His response to the devil was, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." James 1:13, "God is not tempted by evil" and in Acts 2:24, "death had no power to hold him". Jesus was a man. But He was God in the body of a man. Death entered the world through Adam, because Adam was weak. But life came through Jesus, the Tree of Life, the resurrection and the life.
I don't agree with your assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent. Is there a Biblical foundation for that? Additionally, you imply corruption wasn't in existence in the Garden. But didn't God send the most corrupt thing in His creation to the Garden? There were 3 things in the Garden, Man, TKGE, TL. Why was the TKGE there?
I won't debate that God created a flawed universe. He didn't. It deteriorated on its own. But think about what you said, 'I would say it was a part of His Perfect Knowledge & His Whole Plan into Eternity allowed for it."
Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world to be made possible, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis, to the exclusion of everything else, but Titus, 2 Timothy 1:9, Acts 3:8, 17:3, John 20:9, Lk 24:26, 44, Rom 8:3, Heb 7:18, 10:5. From there, I look back at Genesis. but maybe you are right. Maybe God did create everything perfect.
Heb 10:1, For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
Heb 7:11, Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood...
The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation. The first indication is that he was not Mature in his understanding. We conclude from the fact that s/he could not distinguish between good and evil, they were created in innocence. If Maturity is a sign of Perfection, they weren't. They were not, as you stated, flawed, but were they fully equipped for the task? I might be getting myself in hot water here. Example, a young persons at 30 might be in perfect health because he doesn't have any ailment or issues. But his system and capacity deteriorate. And while healthy, that might not qualify them go excel in Mountain Climbing. Adam had a mountain to climb he might not have been equipped for. The devil was crafty, astute, street wise. Adam and Eve were gullible. But that was no excuse for disobedience. In law, there is a lot of discussion about intent. Were Adam and Eve making a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision to abandon God? Or is there more to the story, we don't know? Probably. Were they better equipped than I think? Perhaps.
P1Good points, Chris. The thought that God could make anything He makes less than perfect is a good point to ponder. A commentary on the subject points out that man might have been created immortal and upon eating the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality. That seems plausible, in that immortal doesn't necessarily mean eternal. The Angels, apparently are eternal beings, if we understand Christ right when He says that like the Angels, we won't die Lk 20:36. So if God created Angels immortal, why didn't He take that immortality from them, so they too would die? Instead, He sentenced them to eternal punishment.
And as you say, "Yes, the potential to corruption is there, but God's design & execution of creation was without flaw." I am in total agreement. That is the way I see it. Now, the devil knows his days are numbered. And as you aptly claim, the devil seized the opportunity to 'test' Adam and Eve, in an attempt to destroy the work of God. So the question must be asked, was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation? And, why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden? Why not keep him as far away from His creation as possible? Maybe banish him to Mercury, Pluto or beyond. Why smack in the middle of the Garden? What was God's reason for that?
Was it to test Adam's loyalty? But if God, in His omniscience knew Adam would succumb to the tricks of the devil, why put him through that anyway? Is God so insecure that He has to 'test' His creation to make sure it is loyal to Him? Or did God have another reason for doing that?
Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation, to be made possible. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis...continued P2
Pre-trib teachers have had this verse wrong at least since 1948. They totally ignored the synoptic gospels and that Luke gave an extra detail that shows us Jesus is merely talking about the signs He previously gave in the preceding verses and Israel becoming a nation wasn't ONE of those signs. Reread Matthew 24. You won't find it. It was added to the text to make their teaching fit. Woe unto anyone adding to God's Word. Most of the smarter teachers do not say that is Israel anymore because guys like me called them out on it and they know we will bring up the "fig tree being cursed" passage that is talking about Israel.
Read the whole chapters of Matthew 21, 22, and 23 the many warnings of time running out for you and the 7 woes of Matthew 23 given by Jesus Himself before He prophecies their destruction.
I will show you the first major problem I ran into with verses that were being used to support pre-trib teaching and it is one of many. I shelved all my unaccredited Bible College years and 30+ years of study on my own and just started reading the scriptures and asking God for truth.
Let's take this passage for example. This one woke me up. I can give dozens more but let's just go with this one brother.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Pre-trib teachers will say that this "fig tree" here is Israel yet it has absolutely nothing to do with Israel as it is metaphoric language and just mean ALL THESE SIGNS = MY PHSYICAL RETURN. That is what a metaphor is and usually has the word "like", like as" or "such" to show it is making a comparison. Now follow me here. This isn't rocket science by any means. I then went to Luke and it proves what I am saying here. Read the passage slowly and you will see the problem. We brush over things very fast sometimes and miss it.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
We have that nasty phrase "...and all the trees;" in verse 29 looking us square in the face and shows this passage is not even talking about any nation.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Who was Jesus talking to here? - Peter, James, Andrew and John. That is how Jesus started His whole discourse which the end part of Matthew 21, 22, 23 and most of beginning of 24. Always ask yourself when reading a passage, What is the What?, Who are the Who?, When was the When?, Where was the Where, and What is the Why? Then make sure you read the context. You cannot get the FULL context of chapter 24 without reading the 3 previous chapters. You will miss a lot. It is all of the Olivette Discourse. You read Matthew 24 alone and you will believe and teach a lot of things incorrectly.
There is only ONE group of Jews that I am aware of today that strictly stick to the Old Testament. They are Kirite Jews and very few. The rest of the religious ones hold to the unsaved rabbinical teachings - Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara and is why they are unsaved. Those writings are commentaries- useless at best. 50% to 68% of Jews living in Israel today, yes today, are atheist or irreligious as their own media if you ever read their own online newspaper columns admits. So if you think they are going to read the New Testament, unless they converted to Christianity, it isn't going to happen. It will be way too late for them and after the fact when they do. The antichrist will be there soon.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my w
I am going to have to do this in four or five parts since you are only allowed to write 2000 characters at a time.
PART 1:
Yes Matthew wrote with the Jewish mindset but so did Paul when he wrote Hebrews but it is for all of God's people. They key is WHO were these warnings given to? Obviously, those who follow Jesus so to say they are for future people who are only going to get the warnings AFTER it is too late just don't hold water. There are only ONE people of God EVER both in the Old and New Testaments. Abraham was a Syrian. He also had gentile servants. Joseph married an Egyptian and had two half-breeds Manasseh and Ephraim. 430 years later, the Israelites came out of Egypt a MIXED people the Bible teaches. It has always been about being in the covenant.
Matthew 24 was written for every generation and for THAT GENERATION of Jews especially still living in Jerusalem who God would save 40 years later when He destroyed Jerusalem through Prince Titus thus fulfilling Daniel 9 and Matthew 23 and Matthew 21. So this is a poor argument at best. There were synagogues throughout the Roman Empire that many Gentiles went to as you can see over and over in the Book of Acts. Here is just ONE of 20 verses in Acts alone.
Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
Matthew merely wrote what Mark 13 and Luke 21 say. These other gospels were written by two of Paul's missionary companions in which Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles". To say that Matthew was only FOR Jews because it was written with the Jewish mindset, you have to throw out the Book of Hebrews, the Book of James, the Book of Revelation (the most Old Testament TYPOLOGY book in the New Testament), and the entire Old Testament. The question is "WHO would be the ones to read it"? Only the followers of Jesus are ever going to read it.
If you type in PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: TRUE OR FALSE? I am buried even though that is my channel name. try typing in one of my actual video names. here it is Questionnaire Poll on YOUR view of End Times Theology
EXACTLY THIS WAY IN THE YOUTUBE SEARCH BOX, YOU SHOULD FIND ME.
Thumbnail picture should say "End Times Theology with Brother Bob" in this video. I corrected the thumbnail but they still have the top letters chopped off for some reason. Let me know if this works. It should as I just tried it. Get many others to join if you can.
The Bible. A preacher isn't necessary for someone to follow Jesus. Preachers don't save anyone, Jesus does. People can easily learn about Jesus from the Bible.
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Revelation Chapter 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Two other problems with that position are that if the Holy Spirit is taken away, who will convict sinners of sin? Who will Seal new Believers? Who will lead them into Truth? If the Church is taken away, who will spread the message of Christ? How can they believe without a preacher?
Most significantly, however, is that their position is not realistic. It is a fantasy developed from conjecture and feelings, rather than Scripture. What Scripture can they produce to support their point of view? None. Because there aren't any. The only places where the Bible tells us when the Rapture is going to be are all based on Christ's revelation that it will be Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
Unfortunately, their argument is superficial and based on unsubstantiated supposition. So you are exactly right, Danny. I was almost kicked out of a Bible Institute because I dared question the Administrator about the time of the Second Coming. And that was before I knew the difference. And after I preached a sermon based on Salvation by Grace, borrowed from Charles Spurgeon, the Pastor stood up, called me a liar, and told congregants not to believe anything I said. But Spurgeon was right. And so are you.
If you take it, there will be no way to gain entrance to heaven, ever.
If you don't take it, you may be executed.
Best option is to be born again today!
Go watch Dwight Thompson on youtube, preaching 'what to do if you miss the rapture'. It's an old sermon but it's very relevant. I met Dwight; he's an evangelist. He cares about people's souls. You can pray the sinners prayer at the end of the sermon.
Don't get side tracked by OPINIONS of other people.
If this happens in our lifetime and you are still here, you are going to have two choices: either take the mark of the beast and (maybe) live for another 3-1/2 years, or refuse to take the mark. Those are your two choices. If you take the mark, you will be part of the antichrist's religious and economic system, which will allow you to buy food and the things you need to survive for that short period of time. Taking that mark will also mean that you have chosen to worship the antichrist. But if you refuse to take the mark, you will be killed, probably beheaded. But just keep in mind that if you choose to take the mark to save your life here, you will no longer have an opportunity for salvation. If you take the mark, you will end up in the lake of fire. If you are faced with that decision, you might want to choose Christ!
I suppose that's where we differ. You believe that the message Christ was giving in Matt. 24-25 was to the church, and I believe He was giving this warning to the Jewish people. I can share my basis of belief, but like I said, what would be the use since I'm sure you will shoot down whatever it is that draws me to the conclusion of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I asked you in a previous thread, the one that got shut down, why do you continue hounding me about the rapture? How long are you going to drag this on? I do not have an issue with you because you believe in Post Trib. Why would you have an issue with me?
But since you think you will be taken out before that, what is your Biblical basis for that belief? Are there Scriptures you can point to that are not directly related or a repetition of what Christ describes in Matt 24?
What is the basis of your belief?
You ask if the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? It was specifically given to Jesus' disciples. There were multitudes that gathered and were listening in; But Jesus specifically was giving this sermon to His disciples only. Now, are there things in Matthew Chapters 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that we Gentiles can benefit from? I would say yes. And if you recall in one of my previous responses, I already said that. But there are also things written specifically to the Jews that the church today tries to apply to believers that do not apply to the church. There are many teachings found in Matthew that are not found in the other Gospels. That's because Matthew's Gospel specifically pertains to the Jews.
Baptism? The Jews were baptizing long before the church came into existence. Was the O.T. for the Jews only? Originally yes, it was given to the Jews and only the Jews. We have it in our bibles today so that we can study History and Prophecy. It is the history of God working through and in His people, the children of Israel, and prophecy about the coming Messiah.
You keep bringing up that Christ is coming after the Great Tribulation. Is there a reason? I already agreed to that. Concerning the rapture, we will just have to remain in disagreement with each other on the timing. I can layout every reason why I believe in Pre-Trib, but what good would that do? There are at least three views, and no matter what view a person takes, they have scripture to back up their view, and then it becomes "I'm right, and you're wrong!"
Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."
"Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matt 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
It goes like this:
1. AntiChrist ascends to Power
2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple
3. The Great Tribulation
4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)
5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture
There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
HI Jeff,
Based on your response coupled with all the other research I have done I also conclude that is it SOMEWHAT both, but with a primary and secondary interpretation. I think when a verse is confusing it is best to "keep it simple" and keep it in "context". I am thinking that when one takes v38 completely in context (especially pertaining to v37 which is telling the people at the time about the day Jesus the "Son of Man" is returning - as it relates to all the things above v 4-35) that the primary conclusion is that it is not specifically(primarily) talking about the Rapture. As we know, a lot of the bible is written to specific people at a specific time, but that also the "principal/concept" can have applications for others.
.long story to say: based on scriptural face value, it is not addressing the Rapture, but the concept of being "prepared" can apply to anyone in the church age, especially for those at the time of the anticipated Rapture.
Oh and if we take it on scriptural face value, then even though we don't understand it, we have to believe that the people affected will somehow be living life as "normal", where "normal" could be a way of saying they wont care enough to be ready.
Thanks again,
Tim
Hi Tim
Very good question. This is a question I struggled with for a very long time.
I believe that the context of Matt 24/25 is the tribulation AND the second coming. That all the events of Matt 24 are related to the time of the 7 year tribulation leading up to the second coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years. Matt 25 and the Sheep and Goat judgment is also the second coming when "the son of man comes in his glory"......
Most of the people Christ addressed were Jewish non-believers. Does that mean that the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? Or that only Jews were to heed Christ's instruction for the Passover Communion? If you recall, there were no Gentiles present at the Passover. Or how about Baptism? Was that only for the Jews? Or the OT, is that for Jews only? Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Peter to the Jews. Does that mean we don't take anything Peter said as applicable to Gentiles?
Matthew 24 is no more for the Jews only, than the rest of the Bible. The message is to everyone, but even more specifically for the Followers of Christ. Matthew 24:29, whether for Jews or Gentiles, is the only, the only place in the entire Bible that pin points the Return of Christ. And in it, Christ Himself says He is coming after the Great Tribulation. Jewish or not, that is a piece of information valuable to everyone. Daniel 7-12 was written to the Jews, but not for the Jews. It was written for everyone, most particularly, for Believers in Christ.
If you do a careful study of The Day of the Lord, you will find it is limited to the last moment of the Great Tribulation, not the last 3 1/2 years. Same as Wrath. You don't, but many Christians think of the entire Tribulation as The Day of the Lord. But what you say about the Rapture is what Jesus says in Matt 24:29-31. And it happens Immediately After the Great Tribulation. 1 These 4 says the same thing, but doesn't specify, as Christ did.
Your comparison between Adam and God in the Flesh (Jesus) is questionable. Christ came with a Pre-Determined Purpose. Christ is God. Christ was Mature and fully prepared. His response to the devil was, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." James 1:13, "God is not tempted by evil" and in Acts 2:24, "death had no power to hold him". Jesus was a man. But He was God in the body of a man. Death entered the world through Adam, because Adam was weak. But life came through Jesus, the Tree of Life, the resurrection and the life.
I don't agree with your assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent. Is there a Biblical foundation for that? Additionally, you imply corruption wasn't in existence in the Garden. But didn't God send the most corrupt thing in His creation to the Garden? There were 3 things in the Garden, Man, TKGE, TL. Why was the TKGE there?
I won't debate that God created a flawed universe. He didn't. It deteriorated on its own. But think about what you said, 'I would say it was a part of His Perfect Knowledge & His Whole Plan into Eternity allowed for it."
Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world to be made possible, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis, to the exclusion of everything else, but Titus, 2 Timothy 1:9, Acts 3:8, 17:3, John 20:9, Lk 24:26, 44, Rom 8:3, Heb 7:18, 10:5. From there, I look back at Genesis. but maybe you are right. Maybe God did create everything perfect.
Heb 10:1, For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
Heb 7:11, Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood...
The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation. The first indication is that he was not Mature in his understanding. We conclude from the fact that s/he could not distinguish between good and evil, they were created in innocence. If Maturity is a sign of Perfection, they weren't. They were not, as you stated, flawed, but were they fully equipped for the task? I might be getting myself in hot water here. Example, a young persons at 30 might be in perfect health because he doesn't have any ailment or issues. But his system and capacity deteriorate. And while healthy, that might not qualify them go excel in Mountain Climbing. Adam had a mountain to climb he might not have been equipped for. The devil was crafty, astute, street wise. Adam and Eve were gullible. But that was no excuse for disobedience. In law, there is a lot of discussion about intent. Were Adam and Eve making a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision to abandon God? Or is there more to the story, we don't know? Probably. Were they better equipped than I think? Perhaps.
And as you say, "Yes, the potential to corruption is there, but God's design & execution of creation was without flaw." I am in total agreement. That is the way I see it. Now, the devil knows his days are numbered. And as you aptly claim, the devil seized the opportunity to 'test' Adam and Eve, in an attempt to destroy the work of God. So the question must be asked, was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation? And, why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden? Why not keep him as far away from His creation as possible? Maybe banish him to Mercury, Pluto or beyond. Why smack in the middle of the Garden? What was God's reason for that?
Was it to test Adam's loyalty? But if God, in His omniscience knew Adam would succumb to the tricks of the devil, why put him through that anyway? Is God so insecure that He has to 'test' His creation to make sure it is loyal to Him? Or did God have another reason for doing that?
Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation, to be made possible. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis...continued P2
CAUGHT UP
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