I drew a picture for my son when he was young. He didn't understand the soul.
God formed (mould) Adams body out of the dust: to get his sustenance from the earth (food, water, shelter). That's why dust returns to dust at death.
Made in Gods image, so connected spiritually. Enabled to receive Gods direction. (Name the animals, etc)
God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul: that reasons, feels emotions, solves problems, needs love.
I believe Adam and Eve were unprepared to meet the subtil (deceptive) Satan. I think the devil studied them to find an entrance.
Satan introduced doubt. She countered with what God had told them about the Garden.
Satan is evil & had the knowledge: he tells her she will surely not die and 3 more reasons. Tempted with the curiosity of the food and knowledge, she tastes it and shares it with Adam.
God could have had Satan hurled elsewhere but He didn't. It would have negated the FREE WILL he had given to Adam and Eve.
God had to send them out of the Garden and move the Tree of Life, because if they ate of that they would live eternally in a good or evil state of being with free will. Adams status as a son of God was over! He was human, just like we are.
If we accept Jesus as Savior, in our fallen status; our souls will live Eternally with our Lord in heaven. Our transformed bodies will be returned to us at the instant we are CAUGHT UP to become the Bride of Jesus Christ, our Bridegroom. We have a wedding to attend.
Even more exciting if you are alive at that moment!
Onto Perfection: I just don't see that A & E's inability to discern between good & evil either weakened or limited them. Perfection (as I perceive it here), is His Creation of man to be pure/perfect in mind & body, & that purity involved total obedience to their Creator in perfect love & trust. There was no need for them to know what was good or evil, for their goodness & flow of spiritual energy lay in their unquestionable & in-dissolvable relationship to their Creator. Why then did they have the ability to choose? Maybe, & not just a Character of God, this was what gave them the 'humanness' of the creative Work & not just a robotic response, or a blind obedience, to God. So, we see a Perfect Creation, with the power to choose, but they would only choose obedience to God because of a pure heart & mind towards Him. Satan then enters in to 'work' on that opening to make them consider otherwise.
"What did the devil say to Eve? You will be like God. And what did God say? They are now in our image. They are like us; with knowledge they didn't have." ( Gen 3:22). Fully agree - that's what transpired. So this confirms that God had this knowledge (of good & evil), & correctly so, but A & E were prevented from it for the sake of innocence (for it seems that in God's definition, Innocence is a state where knowledge of good & evil or right from wrong, is not evident at all). I think of a baby: brought into this world in innocence (notwithstanding with a sin nature), but has the trait of 'choice'. Then there comes a time in that little one's life, where the need to choose arrives. It can make the right choice, but its sin nature dictates that soon the wrong one will also be made. What choices are made by the child? Wilful behaviour, coveting another child's toy, disobedience, are a few that come to mind. A & E, even in their unfallen 'youth', did not disobey, covet, or behaved wilfully. They used they God-given trait of choice & then, that's when it all fell apart.
Nice description of "me building a mansion, etc." I agree, it would be very foolish of me to expend so much to have it all destroyed. I should have built it as far away as possible from this enemy (fortunately, I had insurance!) or made the mansion impregnable & unable to be destroyed, which I couldn't humanly do. Do you know why I still persisted in building this doomed mansion? I firstly wanted a beautiful home for my family to live in & to which my friends would be pleased to see & visit (i.e. I fulfilled my lifelong dream). I would protect it the best I could (alarms, cameras, etc). But my enemy came in with bulldozers in the night to do his evil deed. He succeeded, I was grieved but I knew my dream could not be thwarted. I rebuilt that which was broken, knowing full well that my enemy was lurking about with his bulldozer to strike again. However, this time, I did what many Americans do, have an arsenal of weaponry that makes an Iraqi army look like an ill-equipped bunch of boy scouts. If you get my drift Carlos, I speak of the coming of Christ & the spiritual weapons His Spirit has endued us with to fight the powerful, spiritual Enemy we face daily. So hopefully, my earthly enemy will take note & either back off, or if he is emboldened, the use of my armoury will strike where it hurts: his pride & spirit of hatred. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, to your questions 1, 2, 3, 4: I don't know why Satan was banished to the Earth & not to another planet or star. God's creation was perfect (I emphasize: in its MAKING), so whatever evil was near to it, was of no consequence - evil would have no influence on it. But you will say, 'Evil did have an influence'. Why? Because this perfect creation chose to disobey their Creator. It is all about CHOICE. To deal with your point properly, I would say that God should have created A & E without the power of choice (thus, unlike their Creator) or make them using a set program written in their minds (= robotic), or as you suggest, keep them out of Satan's reach altogether. God, for His Own reasons, chose not to employ any of MY suggestions, & do this HIS Way. No risk in ruining His Creation: A & E were created in perfection, they chose to sin, Satan was successful, & God's ultimate Plan for bringing mankind back to Him was in action. Did God know all this? Of course. Then why bother? Maybe, just maybe, all this is a beautiful expression of His Character of Love, both in creating & redeeming. (onto Page 2)
Ezekiel Chapter 31 (was Adam and Eve really alone in the garden?)
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. (Assyrian a Cedar figure of speech family tree)
4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of EDEN Eden, that were in the GARDEN garden of GOD God, envied him. (Trees IN EDEN envied him? Trees have emotions or family trees figure of speech?)
Was the Assyrian in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve?
I read something once that 'this generation' had something to do with the fig tree blooming. I'll have to study that again. I don't think it has to do with Jesus's generation.
It has something to do with the Return. Israel gained Statehood in 1948. Gained freedom in the 6 day War. I'm not sure if there's an official date of the Jews returning from the dispersion?
I remember something about 1918 too. I was trying to pray about that date.
I do know that Israel's flag was adopted and displayed first time in 1948. I googled that. The emblem is about the Shield of David.
Well, it looks like we have a dilemma. God has convinced you without a doubt of a post tribulation rapture, and He's convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture. Now what? We're both convinced, and we both believe we are convinced by God's word, so now what? That's a question that no one seems to be able to answer. Have you ever been convinced that God showed you something, and then later find out it was wrong? I have.
I don't think there is any proof on who wrote Hebrews. It wasn't until the 3rd century that the council of Carthage added Paul's name to the letter. But they had no proof of that. There are theories out there as to who it might be, and Paul's seems to be the most popular. But no one knows for sure. I don't see it being Paul. It was written too eloquently. It was not Paul's style of writing. Paul seemed to be all over the place in his letters. Plus, Paul usually attached his name to all his letters.
Hebrews had to have been written by a second generation Christian because of what the writer stated in Hebrews 2:3. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him. So whoever wrote Hebrews did not hear the Lord directly, nor did he receive from the Lord directly, but received and was confirmed and established for us, he being one of them, by those that heard Him.
Paul himself, as stated in Galatians 1:11-12 said, but I certify to you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man, for I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. So Paul is not a second generation Christian. And whoever wrote Hebrews is a second generation Christian.
I was just curious if you read Greek. I read koine Greek. It's helped me a lot in my studies. Who knows, I might be one of those people you describe as knowing just enough to be dangerous. I own a copy of the Textus Receptus and I read it from time to time. There's no English at all in it, and you may already know that. I'm no master of the Greek language by any means but I can read it. For that matter, I'm no master of the English language either.
English is such a general language, much like Hebrew. That's why I believe people can't agree with each other on what the English text is saying, because the English language can be interpreted in different ways. Greek is probably the most exact language there is. I think God chose that language for the New Testament for a reason. I wish they would have made it a requirement for everyone going into the ministry that they would have to master the Greek language before they would be able to teach from the pulpit. It's almost impossible to come up with different meanings from the Greek.
Well, I'm not sure how a Greek scholar can confuse Apostasy with Rapture. I would have called him out on that one.
The reason I asked you about the word generation used in Matthew 24:34 is because you brought up a point about the time frame 1948-1988, and people looking for the rapture in 1988. Many people thought that since Israel became a nation in 1948, and to them, generation meant 40 years, so the rapture must be 1988. But actually, the word generation itself has no association with years at all, unless you put the years with it. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.
1. "A & E ate the figurative fruit by participating in and associating with people and Angels God told them to stay away from." How does one eat a 'figurative' fruit? What were they then supposed to be doing/partaking of, or indeed, what was Satan meaning when he referred to the fruit? This interpretation is meaningless to me. This example brings to mind a certain group of believers I knew who also found some 'deeper or hidden meaning' in many biblical references. One such was of young David's preparation to meet Goliath & his collecting of five smooth stones ( 1 Sam 17:40). Can a normal proper reading of this Scripture intimate some further meaning? This group believed that each of those stones had a spiritual representation, viz. Faith, Obedience, Service, Prayer, & Gift of the Holy Spirit. That with these stones in mind, we can be better equipped to deal with the 'goliaths' in our lives. Anything wrong with this? No, the teaching of Faith, Obedience, etc. are essential for us, so there's no problem. But I ask, why the need to use David's stones as representations/associations to Christian living & victory, undermines natural use of Scripture.
2. "Were Adam and Eve the only people alive at the time of their infraction? Was Lucifer the only Angel in Heaven when he became corrupt?" To these, I say, YES, & NO. The Bible gives no hint that any other human was there with A & E at the time of their infraction.
3. "The images presented in these verses are of the devil being banished to the earth and more specifically the Garden of Eden." I will have to leave off this one: I just cannot find these 'images' in the light of the Scriptures you cited. They don't make sense, unless exposition is given to each one of those verses.
4. "Satan successfully ruined God's perfect creation, but I don't see that in the Bible." That creation of humans, not machines, was given a free will; they chose wrongly. I'll also leave off this one: I've given my thoughts earlier.
CARLOS: why are you asking us why God had Satan hurled to earth? Ask God.
What did scientists and archaeologists find in the earth? Maybe they were looking for gold and diamonds... they found bones! Ancient civilizations, artifacts, cave drawings! People dug post holes and found crude oil. It is never ending "what's next" around the earth. We start looking at the stars (possibly trying to find God) and find planets, moons, other galaxies!!
If you were a hate filled Lucifer, used to being admired for beauty and music to praise God with? What's wrong with that picture? Satan wanted the praise for HIMSELF. God told Michael the archangel, go take care of that (Satan). Michael hurls him to earth like an asteroid and ouchy, that was one Big Bang. Earth wasn't a garden yet. So Satan is here, bored, making dinosaurs, terrariums, cave dwellers who were eaten by dinosaurs or killing dinosaurs for food. There is no archeological evidence that cave men were religious. There's drawings of hunts, mean neighbors, herds. If there are cave people in heaven I'll make them banana bread cake and K-cups. Point is there been conflicting archeological evidence: pre-Adamic and post-Adamic; post flood. I find it very interesting googling. I find God's hand everywhere.
God wiped out satans projects with His own. Satan still owned the earth till God made first Adam. Adam messed it up giving in to his wife's offering of the fruit. I think he knew it was a bad idea. And it was. Satan May have thought he got the one up, on God, but not so. The WORD of God, Jesus, stepped in to be the 2nd Adam. Score one for the Godhead. Now Satan has to look forward to having his head crushed by Jesus. Genesis 3:15. Satan is not privy to all truth. When Jesus hung dying on the cross, satan thought he had defeated God by killing his only Son. Jesus came out of the grave with the Keys to hell and the Deed to the earth!!
Satan is defeated! His plans for Antichrist will fail too!
I am not a Greek-reader but have always used the original languages as tools IF NEEDED. Usually you don't need it if you read the passage in context. the KJB translators did a terrific job- 55 men of which one guy alone knew 12 or more languages fluently. You can't find scholarship close to that today. And that was one guys out of 55.
If you look up a greek or hebrew word and there is more than one possible meaning and there usually is in most cases and sometimes even twenty meanings, how do you know which one to use to interpret rightly?
1. Context.
2. See how that word is used in other passages that are similar.
Good examples is Dr. Thomas Ice, Professor at Liberty University and one of the biggest names in pre-trib teachers admitted that there isn't one clear verse that teaches a pre-trib rapture. Dr. John Walvoord,Tim Lahaye, and many others admit to this also. Anyhow, when a professor is so desperate to prove something they know they cannot prove Biblically even though they taught it to thousands of their students (Liberty U. is the largest Christian college in the world), they resort to craziness. Now he knows the Greek but chose to state that he thinks the word "apostasia" can also be used as a rapture or harpazo word. It's things like this as to why I left the teaching. God is not trying to trick us. He promised us tribulation, suffering and persecution IF we follow Him and if we live godly lives.
A one day old bible college person knows that word is ALWAYS used 1. in context as DEPARTING from the faith and leaving Jesus as many did and are named in the New Testament and that all the passages that have that word in it teach a departing form the faith. Thomas Ice has to answer to God some day even trying to use that. Most famous pre-trib teachers have come against him on that and rightfully so. But he and a few other guys are still trying to use it.
God Bless!
some of the dumbest people in the world know Greek and Hebrew and enough of it to be dangerous
YOU: And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appreciate that. Do you read Greek?"
Me: "This generation" means THIS generation. It would have to be THOSE THAT WERE ALIVE AT THE TIME JESUS SPOKE THAT. MANY WERE ALREADY OLD. IF YOU COMPARE IT TO THE WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE, it was 40 years. And then we have history showing it below form 30 AD to 70 AD. That THIS is the antecedent and WHO Jesus was speaking of. Yes, 40 is standard Bible numbering. 40 can mean trials, temptations. Children of Israel in the wilderness for 40 years. Jesus 40 days on the mount being tempted of the devil. Moses goes up 40 days to receive the 10 commandments, comes down breaks all ten commandments (pun intended when he threw the tablets), went back up another 40 days.
Moses at age 40 decides to follow God and not Pharoah.
Moses kilsl the Egyptian and goes on the backside of the desert for 40 years before comiing to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Moses dies 40 more years later.
There are other passages.
Historically speaking, Jesus died in 30 AD, gave Judah 40 more years to repent (those who didn't receive Him as the Messiah) before judgment came int he Great Revolt.
There are more examples.
Three rules in proper exegesis, CONTEXT. CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Jesus was speaking to that generation in 3 previous chapters all about the same thing. There is no way to get around it. There are three different WORLDS in chapter 24 which changes the whole meaning that pre-trib tries to do. What happened in 70 AD is going to happen again- at least that is my take on it but it will be persecution on a worldwide level. I call this the Dual Prophecy method. In other words, futurism, historicism, preterism and partial preterism all have some truths. Much of Matt. 24 was fulfilled but some things will be and on a greater scale.
YOU: I would have to assume that there are some who once believed in a post-trib and have changed their minds after spending years in careful study alike? I definitely appreciate your response and the time you put into it. However, I am still Pre-Trib.
ME: I only believed in pre-trib because it was the only thing taught in America until the internet became available. it is all taught in Bible Colleges since 1909. I did my own studying though and that is how I came to my own conclusion. God had to convince me it wasn't right with no presuppositions or eisogesis involved and He did. I want it to be true but I KNOW it is not 1 billion percent. No doubts whatsoever and that is why I started my channel to show people WHY I came to the conclusion I did. It's just getting going. Many are leaving pre-trib doctrine as it teaches more than one gospel which is heresy in itself. Do yourself a favor and at least check out Pastor Sam Adams videos on Scofield. You will be shocked. I'm sure there are a few post-tribbers that are now pre-trib but the pendulum is swinging more and more to post and pre-wrath. Pre-trib was about 99%. If they started teaching all the views in the colleges it wold probably be about 25% that would hold to pre-trib.
YOU: I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appreciate that. Do you read Greek?"
ME: Yes, you can see Paul's writing style, Jewish thought and analogies throughout it. It was never questioned unto the late 1800's by the "higher critics" They question the virgin birth of Jesus and other core doctrines. The original KJB says "written from Italy by Timothy. Timothy, Mark, Luke and others did writing for Paul. I guess I would say 99% sure Paulw as the author
You: Thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. That is a whole lot to chew on, and I did read it all. First, I want to make myself clear. I never said that Matthew was written only for Jews. I said Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews. And yes, I agree that the entire bible is written to learn from. It's all God's word. I would not dare discard any of the books, as I find value in every book. I just wanted to clarify that.
Me: Your welcome. That is go to know you hold to the 66 books.
YOU: I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone.
Me: I heard of people dividing up those other gospels from Matthew but don't see how they can justify it. How do YOU justify it? Yes I have spent a lot of time. I know more than what was presented in Fighting for the Faith (Joe Schimmel', Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson's 5 hour long documentary) on the subject.
Chris, on your Point 4, Satan was in Eden because God put him there when God expelled Satan and his Angels to the earth. The question remains:
1. Why did God banish Satan to the Earth? Or perhaps,
2. Why did God Create Man on the Earth if He had sent Satan to the Earth?
3. Why not keep Satan as far away from His pinnacle of creation, as possible?
4. Why run the risk of having Satan ruin God's perfect work, especially when God already knew (based on His
Omniscience) that Satan was going to ruin everything He did, anyway?
Can you imagine, it takes you a year of hard work and painstaking detail to build this great mansion on the river bank, and along comes this guy from the neighborhood and tears the whole thing down? What's worse, you knew he was going to do exactly that and you could not stop him. But if you knew that, why did you build the house there?
Is God helpless against the devil?
So, what is perfection? You gave a perfect definition of perfect. Something is Perfect when it is complete. It doesn't lack anything. When Christ returns and we are Transformed, we will be Perfect. Paul defines that as indestructible, incorruptible, immortal (having eternal life, if it is different), 1 Cor 15:35-54, with a Heavenly body. An earthly body is of the earth (material). A Heavenly body is forever.
The earthly was weak and limited. It was limited because it could not distinguish between good and evil. Now, did God create man in His image? That's what the Bible says. But what was missing? Would a perfect man, created in the image of God, lack anything? Was anything missing? Is it that God created man to sort of look like Him, but not exactly alike? So what was the problem with Adam and Eve being equipped with the knowledge of good and evil from the moment they were created? Why create them without that? What did the devil say to Eve? You will be like God. And what did God say? They are now in our image. They are like us; with knowledge they didn't have.
Of course Jesus would not take the Mark of the Beast. He warned us not to, in his Word. That taking it, would separate us from Him, and doom us to hell.
We need to post this often, so people wandering into the room would be aware of the pressure to get it. Preach on Hebrews 11 and maybe examples from Foxes Book of Martyrs.
Look at what is happening now with this virus! The hoarding, the anger at not being able to buy what you want when you want it. It's a preview! People will accept the Mark as a way of getting what they want.
I asked the Lord if 'they' will trick us into that? He said, no. It will be a conscious choice.
This comment forum has a duty to study this and post it to the forum as OFTEN as the subjects of Genesis, the Caught Up (rapture), and unforgivable sins of the Jews.
As much as just those 3 topics.
If the Rapture (caught up) is going to be preached, then give THE DETAILS !
No one in here ever agrees on the Timing of the Caught Up. Ever wonder why?
It's because we are supposed to preach and teach, the WATCH FOR, the LOOK UP....your redemption is close! Have your lamps filled to the top with the OIL of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus. Do be full of Jesus, and HE will draw all mankind to Him.
You have this same responsibility to turn these discussions to more practical discussion. For ONE all water on earth is going to be turned to blood. People who scoff at salvation need to know what they are facing. I'm praying to the Lord of the Harvest to bring people to the Truth of their need.
All of you have great ability to research the Need. What does the Bible say? What did Jesus say? Reveal Revelation. Jesus said , If I be LIFTED up, I will draw all men (and women) to ME! Children over the age of accountability (knowing good vs evil) will have to be reached too. What do soldiers say? No one Left Behind!!
Go ye into the Prayer Request room. They need your learning; your Light.
Glad you asked, Chris. 1. There are many things we don't know, but we know this. God took away their immortality. "The Punishment for eating the fruit," God told Adam, "will be death. You will no longer live forever." Adam and Eve ate the figurative fruit by participating in and associating with people and Angels God told them to stay away from. Let me add another twist here.
Were Adam and Eve the only people alive at the time of their infraction? Was Lucifer the only Angel in Heaven when he became corrupt? Don't pull all your hair out or tear up your jacket. I am tempted to explain, but I won't. I'll let you steam in your chair for a while.
2. OK.
3. Maybe I misunderstood what Gen 2:9, Songs 2, Revelation 12:9, Lk 10:18, Isa 14, Ez 28:13, 17, Eze 31. The images presented in these verses are of the devil being banished to the earth and more specifically the Garden of Eden. The imagery of Ezk 31 compares the Tree of KGE with Satan. But let me change my position a little. Perhaps, as you pointed out, the Tree was a real tree. However, it represented Satan's corruption. My thinking is the Tree represented Satan's Kingdom, his realm, where he ruled with the other fallen Angels. I am expanding on the imagery. Trees in the Bible are used, as I previously mentioned, to connote empires, governments, great leaders. Because of the nature of the 2 Trees in the Garden, I think the same applies. I think Songs 2 reflects what happened in Eden.
I disagree that anyone or anything can interfere with God's Plan. He is God and His Will stands. You say Satan successfully ruined God's perfect creation, but I don't see that in the Bible. Just the opposite. What can separate us from God? Nothing, Rom 8:35f. Our confidence is that nothing can ruin God's Plan. If a created, being can ruin what God does, we are in big trouble, Dan 4:35, Isa 14:24-27, 2 Chron 20:6Isa 43:13, "Even from eternity I am He, and none can deliver out of My hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"
Matthew 5:38-42 is the correct understanding of revenge and this is important. Jesus said in Matthew 5:38 you have heard about eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth?
That's found in Exodus 21:24. This law was actually given for restraint. In other words you are only allowed by law that if the man injures your eye, you can only injure his eye, because the desire was that if you injure my eye, you die!
So it was actually restrictive. And Jesus said, and He is actually bringing in a correction. He says, but I say to you, to resist not evil, and whosoever should smite you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. If he takes your coat, let him have your cloak too.
They were only allowed to take your inner coat. They couldn't take your outer coat. Jesus said if they take you to court and they want you inner coat, give them the outer one too.
Thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. That is a whole lot to chew on, and I did read it all. First, I want to make myself clear. I never said that Matthew was written only for Jews. I said Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews. And yes, I agree that the entire bible is written to learn from. It's all God's word. I would not dare discard any of the books, as I find value in every book. I just wanted to clarify that. I don't want people thinking that I am saying that certain parts of the bible are not important. People should hold the entire bible dear to their hearts.
I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone. I would have to assume that there are some who once believed in a post-trib and have changed their minds after spending years in careful study alike? I definitely appreciate your response and the time you put into it. However, I am still Pre-Trib.
I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appeciate that. Do you read Greek?
comments by Alex on John 3 Ye must be bornagain in order to enter the Kingdom he told Nic.a Jew A TEACHER OF THE LAW.What the law cd not do in that it was weak thru the flesh God had to send his Son in the form of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the Flesh ( humanity ) none righteous no not one,the law cd not make mankind righteous sorry. Simply b/c mans adamic nature,our CARNAL MINDS cd not interface with the law, David comes to mind and David was a man after GODS OWN HEART. We all carry the stain and the spot of adam, In sin did my mother conceive me. not 1 single person cd escape the curse of adam's sin it was passed on to all men TO ALL MEN NO EXCEPTIONS,Thus the blood of Christ that 2 nd adam has to be passed on to ALL MEN NO EXCEPTIONS, Thats y he said if i be lifted up i will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME. Jerimiah saw ALL MEN in travail and birth pains thats what the new covenant is a birthing covenant which is the book in the right hand of the father th contents of that book are the words of life,th seeds of the sower my words are spirit and LIFE thats y they sang a new song after the book was opened simply b/c the book is the new covenant THAT IS GONNA INITIATE A BIRTH of Christ in us. After the book is opened then the woman ( the church humanity ) goes into birth pains.Thats when John said NOW is come salvation and the Kingdom of our God and his Christ th Christ being the baby th H.G..We are the woman that births the Child via that good seed th Words of the new covenant, Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by th Words of GOD. When Isaiah saw the KINGDOM COMING he said unto us a Child is born,Jesus said unless you receive th kingdom as a lil child, HE WAS IMPLING A HEAVENLY BIRTH VIA HEAVENLY SEED. OK GBU
Thank you, Jesse. I appreciate your humility and Christ-like response. But there is no need for apologies. We all have regrets. We all change our minds. And we all defend our positions with fervor. That doesn't mean we don't have open minds. Most of Philosophy and Theology, and they are inseparably tied together, involves an exchange of ideas, controversy, intellectual frustration, research and regrets. I have come to believe that none of us has the whole truth, aside from the fact that Christ is Truth. But, for whatever reason, as someone explained before, in response to my question about so many denominations, it is like with the Tower of Babel. God confused their languages and dispersed them.
We all have different points of view. Good thing is that a Forum like this one gives us a chance to discuss and compare. Our views may either strengthen or change. Some Christians worship on Saturday. Some Baptize by immersion. Some believe in transubstantiation. Others believe in Free Will and some don't even believe there will be a Tribulation or Rapture. And they all get that from the same Book. So, in my opinion, no one has a lock on the whole truth. God has given each one of us a little bit, so we don't get puffed up with pride.
I just hope those reading and responding to my posts are not offended by anything I say, unless it is to drive them to the Scriptures that draw them closer to Jesus. Everything, Everything is about Jesus. We think it is about us, but it is about Jesus. He is the one who went to the Cross, suffered a grueling death, defeated death and now sits with the Father until it is time for Him to return to gather us up with Him for all eternity. We should not try to focus the attention on us, our comfort, our enjoyment, and the good life we are promised in Heaven. We must focus on the Victorious, Resurrected Christ who is God. Thank you.
Carlos, your questions: "what does the Bible say happened to the Tree of Knowledge? As an aside, here is another example of allegory. Psalms 104:4, Hebrews 1:7, "Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire."" So, if that is literal, how long were the Angels there protecting the Tree of Life? And if these trees are no longer there, were they cut down? What happened to them? Did more trees of knowledge grow there?"
My answers: we're not told what happened to that tree. The Psalms & Hebrews references: clearly metaphorical, but if one had to insist they were not, I wouldn't dispute it as I can't ascertain any other Scripture to support their view. No idea how long the Angels were protecting the Tree of Life: we're not told. Were they cut down, what happened to them or did more trees of knowledge grow there? No idea, except for Rev 2 & 22 references to the Tree of Life.
My connection of Adam to Christ was purely as two who possessed a sinless nature. Both had the capability to be tempted, one failed, the other passed.
My "assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent". Yes, this is my assumption based on the fact that God said to them that if they ate of the fruit or even touched it, they would die. Of course, they didn't die immediately, but sin entered & they died spiritually & eventually, physically. So, death was the direct product of disobedience & sin, but my assumption from the reading is that, since God selected that particular tree for them to stay away from, there is also the thought, that they being debarred from such knowledge was paramount in maintaining their innocence which was in God's design for mankind.
God didn't send "the most corrupt thing in His Creation into the garden". Satan came to it of his own volition & in his plan.
4. "Was (Satan in Eden) it to test Adam's loyalty?" No. Satan came of his own volition to attempt corruption of man. God didn't put man in that situation to test him, but to warn him of partaking of the Tree of KoGaE, so that innocence would perpetually be his/her character. What Satan then did subsequently, was of his doing & not a test from God.
5. "The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation." You cited Heb 7:11; 10:1 in relation to perfection. I understand your correlation of Perfection with Maturity, & this is true in the case of the believer striving for perfection = maturity in Christ. But how do you correlate this Perfection with the lack of Maturity in A & E? I can't see the connection. If man was made perfect by God, nothing else is involved (e.g. no maturity, no analysis skills, no forecasting abilities based on evidence around, indeed, not knowing what is good & what is evil). A perfect human creation is just that: perfect in itself, though not necessarily having the identical personhood & character of the Creator.
Carlos, following threads is now getting difficult, so can only comment on points (hopefully the latest ones) that I see.
1. How does "man (Adam) eat the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality". So, is it the imagery of eating but not in actuality that you mean here? So then the fruit wasn't real, then probably not the Tree. Was the Garden real? I'm confused; my normal logical mind can't grasp such a concept, in that what is real anymore.
2. I have never believed that Angels could die (which implies mortality); they are eternal beings incapable of 'immortality' (like them, man will one day be in eternity). The only judgement for wicked Angels is not death, but the Lake of Fire.
3. "Was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation?" Yes. And "Why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden?" This is new to me. Do you have a reference for this? The only one I know is Rev 12:9, where God had cast him onto the Earth. And Ezek 28:13, but this shows that he was in Eden (maybe referring to the temptation where he sought out A & E), not cast down to Eden.
Thank you for your kindness. Please know that you have not upset me by any means. As far as who's right and who's wrong, I try to avoid those things. I know I can be wrong also. I've said this before and I'll say it again: My strongest point as a believer in my relationship with Christ is to confess my spiritual stupidity. I confess to the Lord that I don't know. And even if I did know, I wouldn't know. Even if God did send me a message, how do I know it is from God? I don't. I plead dumb sheep. I plead I can be deceived and I'm trusting totally in Christ. When I began to take that approach and that position before Christ there was never any doubt about what the Lord wanted me to do. Everything was so definite. I did what He did. That's it! Where He goes, I go, and where I go, He goes, if that makes sense? I know my position will always be behind Christ. He said follow me. I don't walk beside Him, and I don't walk ahead of Him. My position will always be behind Him.
I think we could both agree that we sometimes let our own human pride get in the way of having healthy conversations. I myself am guilty of that. I consider myself to be very narrow minded when it comes to the things of the Lord. If that's considered a fault, that's a fault I don't mind having. You tell me that I can believe anything I want, and I wish it were that easy but it's not. And you and I, and any other believer for that matter, there's no such thing as being less of a Christian, just like there's no such thing as a believer lacking faith. I hope you understand what I mean by that.
Anyway, thank you again. It is good talking with you also. Stay in the word my friend. I'm sure we'll speak again. The Lord is good!
On your last paragraph, I would have to say I agree with 95%. The one thing I disagree with is it says UNTO the coming of the Lord and parousia means physical return. I know guys like David REagan say, "What, is it a yoyo rapture?"
Yes, that is what the Bible says. Those that are alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPTO or survive) UNTO the coming (parousia or physical return).
What are we surviving from if we are taken before it gets real bad?
Also the word klepto would have been used by the Holy Spirit instead of harpazo if there was a 'secret' rapture. But he used the word that means to seize, pluck, pull. Why? None of us would survive the wrath of God that starts to get poured out after Satan's wrath. In 70 AD God pulled the saved ones out of Jerusalem and had them go into the wilderness and they were protected right before Titus' army destroyed the city. Noah was protected in the flood. Lot taken out but still on the planet. Whether it is a pre-wrath rapture or post-trib (I lean toward post-trib), God has a certain number of us who will be martyred and some that will be protected. So whether He pulls us out and puts us in a safe place or pulls us out in a pre-wrath rapture, His will will be done. This is my take brother. It woudl be great if you can take my END TIMES survey on my youtube channel.
I'm not saying there isn't an Old Testament verse that talks about some going back into the land at some point. The Ethiopian and Eritrean Joos have been trying to migrate into Israel for about 10 years now and are rejected because they are black - a little hidden secret by many teachers. They are true blood Jews. I believe God started this work about 10 years ago so I believe we have no more than 30 more years before Jesus' return to set up His millennial reign.
The rapture had to take place no later than 1988 if 1948 is true. A Biblical generation is always 40 years or less. We have several passages in scripture with the number 40 in it. They are trying to now use a passage in Psalms out of context to make a generation 70 top 80 years. Ask Hal Lindsey and many others who predicted a pre-1988 rapture based on the 1948 Balfour Declaration (British/U.N.). Half the Joos live in America and most in New York City. They for the most part reject what goes on over there and many over there reject what is going on. That is why they predicted it. It is based on what they can see over what is really happening. Many Christians in Palestine were ethnic cleansed once the 1950's hit and not by Muslims. I will leave it at that. Would God do that to His people?
Matthew 24 only says, "his disciples came to him" yet Mark 13:3 actually tells you the FOUR disciples that came to Him with their three questions. It wasn't all of them.
But the entire Bible is written to all people to learn from. Jesus even said, "Had you believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote of me." Most modern sects don't even believe the Old Testament all by itself even though Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies that are in the Old Testament. If they didn't believe Moses, and didn't believe Jesus, why would you think they are going to read Matthew?
God formed (mould) Adams body out of the dust: to get his sustenance from the earth (food, water, shelter). That's why dust returns to dust at death.
Made in Gods image, so connected spiritually. Enabled to receive Gods direction. (Name the animals, etc)
God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul: that reasons, feels emotions, solves problems, needs love.
I believe Adam and Eve were unprepared to meet the subtil (deceptive) Satan. I think the devil studied them to find an entrance.
Satan introduced doubt. She countered with what God had told them about the Garden.
Satan is evil & had the knowledge: he tells her she will surely not die and 3 more reasons. Tempted with the curiosity of the food and knowledge, she tastes it and shares it with Adam.
God could have had Satan hurled elsewhere but He didn't. It would have negated the FREE WILL he had given to Adam and Eve.
God had to send them out of the Garden and move the Tree of Life, because if they ate of that they would live eternally in a good or evil state of being with free will. Adams status as a son of God was over! He was human, just like we are.
If we accept Jesus as Savior, in our fallen status; our souls will live Eternally with our Lord in heaven. Our transformed bodies will be returned to us at the instant we are CAUGHT UP to become the Bride of Jesus Christ, our Bridegroom. We have a wedding to attend.
Even more exciting if you are alive at that moment!
One of Jesus's names, is the Tree of Life.
Onto Perfection: I just don't see that A & E's inability to discern between good & evil either weakened or limited them. Perfection (as I perceive it here), is His Creation of man to be pure/perfect in mind & body, & that purity involved total obedience to their Creator in perfect love & trust. There was no need for them to know what was good or evil, for their goodness & flow of spiritual energy lay in their unquestionable & in-dissolvable relationship to their Creator. Why then did they have the ability to choose? Maybe, & not just a Character of God, this was what gave them the 'humanness' of the creative Work & not just a robotic response, or a blind obedience, to God. So, we see a Perfect Creation, with the power to choose, but they would only choose obedience to God because of a pure heart & mind towards Him. Satan then enters in to 'work' on that opening to make them consider otherwise.
"What did the devil say to Eve? You will be like God. And what did God say? They are now in our image. They are like us; with knowledge they didn't have." ( Gen 3:22). Fully agree - that's what transpired. So this confirms that God had this knowledge (of good & evil), & correctly so, but A & E were prevented from it for the sake of innocence (for it seems that in God's definition, Innocence is a state where knowledge of good & evil or right from wrong, is not evident at all). I think of a baby: brought into this world in innocence (notwithstanding with a sin nature), but has the trait of 'choice'. Then there comes a time in that little one's life, where the need to choose arrives. It can make the right choice, but its sin nature dictates that soon the wrong one will also be made. What choices are made by the child? Wilful behaviour, coveting another child's toy, disobedience, are a few that come to mind. A & E, even in their unfallen 'youth', did not disobey, covet, or behaved wilfully. They used they God-given trait of choice & then, that's when it all fell apart.
Nice description of "me building a mansion, etc." I agree, it would be very foolish of me to expend so much to have it all destroyed. I should have built it as far away as possible from this enemy (fortunately, I had insurance!) or made the mansion impregnable & unable to be destroyed, which I couldn't humanly do. Do you know why I still persisted in building this doomed mansion? I firstly wanted a beautiful home for my family to live in & to which my friends would be pleased to see & visit (i.e. I fulfilled my lifelong dream). I would protect it the best I could (alarms, cameras, etc). But my enemy came in with bulldozers in the night to do his evil deed. He succeeded, I was grieved but I knew my dream could not be thwarted. I rebuilt that which was broken, knowing full well that my enemy was lurking about with his bulldozer to strike again. However, this time, I did what many Americans do, have an arsenal of weaponry that makes an Iraqi army look like an ill-equipped bunch of boy scouts. If you get my drift Carlos, I speak of the coming of Christ & the spiritual weapons His Spirit has endued us with to fight the powerful, spiritual Enemy we face daily. So hopefully, my earthly enemy will take note & either back off, or if he is emboldened, the use of my armoury will strike where it hurts: his pride & spirit of hatred. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, to your questions 1, 2, 3, 4: I don't know why Satan was banished to the Earth & not to another planet or star. God's creation was perfect (I emphasize: in its MAKING), so whatever evil was near to it, was of no consequence - evil would have no influence on it. But you will say, 'Evil did have an influence'. Why? Because this perfect creation chose to disobey their Creator. It is all about CHOICE. To deal with your point properly, I would say that God should have created A & E without the power of choice (thus, unlike their Creator) or make them using a set program written in their minds (= robotic), or as you suggest, keep them out of Satan's reach altogether. God, for His Own reasons, chose not to employ any of MY suggestions, & do this HIS Way. No risk in ruining His Creation: A & E were created in perfection, they chose to sin, Satan was successful, & God's ultimate Plan for bringing mankind back to Him was in action. Did God know all this? Of course. Then why bother? Maybe, just maybe, all this is a beautiful expression of His Character of Love, both in creating & redeeming. (onto Page 2)
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. (Assyrian a Cedar figure of speech family tree)
4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of EDEN Eden, that were in the GARDEN garden of GOD God, envied him. (Trees IN EDEN envied him? Trees have emotions or family trees figure of speech?)
Was the Assyrian in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve?
It has something to do with the Return. Israel gained Statehood in 1948. Gained freedom in the 6 day War. I'm not sure if there's an official date of the Jews returning from the dispersion?
I remember something about 1918 too. I was trying to pray about that date.
I do know that Israel's flag was adopted and displayed first time in 1948. I googled that. The emblem is about the Shield of David.
(Not Moloch/Molech)
Well, it looks like we have a dilemma. God has convinced you without a doubt of a post tribulation rapture, and He's convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture. Now what? We're both convinced, and we both believe we are convinced by God's word, so now what? That's a question that no one seems to be able to answer. Have you ever been convinced that God showed you something, and then later find out it was wrong? I have.
I don't think there is any proof on who wrote Hebrews. It wasn't until the 3rd century that the council of Carthage added Paul's name to the letter. But they had no proof of that. There are theories out there as to who it might be, and Paul's seems to be the most popular. But no one knows for sure. I don't see it being Paul. It was written too eloquently. It was not Paul's style of writing. Paul seemed to be all over the place in his letters. Plus, Paul usually attached his name to all his letters.
Hebrews had to have been written by a second generation Christian because of what the writer stated in Hebrews 2:3. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him. So whoever wrote Hebrews did not hear the Lord directly, nor did he receive from the Lord directly, but received and was confirmed and established for us, he being one of them, by those that heard Him.
Paul himself, as stated in Galatians 1:11-12 said, but I certify to you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man, for I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. So Paul is not a second generation Christian. And whoever wrote Hebrews is a second generation Christian.
English is such a general language, much like Hebrew. That's why I believe people can't agree with each other on what the English text is saying, because the English language can be interpreted in different ways. Greek is probably the most exact language there is. I think God chose that language for the New Testament for a reason. I wish they would have made it a requirement for everyone going into the ministry that they would have to master the Greek language before they would be able to teach from the pulpit. It's almost impossible to come up with different meanings from the Greek.
Well, I'm not sure how a Greek scholar can confuse Apostasy with Rapture. I would have called him out on that one.
The reason I asked you about the word generation used in Matthew 24:34 is because you brought up a point about the time frame 1948-1988, and people looking for the rapture in 1988. Many people thought that since Israel became a nation in 1948, and to them, generation meant 40 years, so the rapture must be 1988. But actually, the word generation itself has no association with years at all, unless you put the years with it. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.
1. "A & E ate the figurative fruit by participating in and associating with people and Angels God told them to stay away from." How does one eat a 'figurative' fruit? What were they then supposed to be doing/partaking of, or indeed, what was Satan meaning when he referred to the fruit? This interpretation is meaningless to me. This example brings to mind a certain group of believers I knew who also found some 'deeper or hidden meaning' in many biblical references. One such was of young David's preparation to meet Goliath & his collecting of five smooth stones ( 1 Sam 17:40). Can a normal proper reading of this Scripture intimate some further meaning? This group believed that each of those stones had a spiritual representation, viz. Faith, Obedience, Service, Prayer, & Gift of the Holy Spirit. That with these stones in mind, we can be better equipped to deal with the 'goliaths' in our lives. Anything wrong with this? No, the teaching of Faith, Obedience, etc. are essential for us, so there's no problem. But I ask, why the need to use David's stones as representations/associations to Christian living & victory, undermines natural use of Scripture.
2. "Were Adam and Eve the only people alive at the time of their infraction? Was Lucifer the only Angel in Heaven when he became corrupt?" To these, I say, YES, & NO. The Bible gives no hint that any other human was there with A & E at the time of their infraction.
3. "The images presented in these verses are of the devil being banished to the earth and more specifically the Garden of Eden." I will have to leave off this one: I just cannot find these 'images' in the light of the Scriptures you cited. They don't make sense, unless exposition is given to each one of those verses.
4. "Satan successfully ruined God's perfect creation, but I don't see that in the Bible." That creation of humans, not machines, was given a free will; they chose wrongly. I'll also leave off this one: I've given my thoughts earlier.
What did scientists and archaeologists find in the earth? Maybe they were looking for gold and diamonds... they found bones! Ancient civilizations, artifacts, cave drawings! People dug post holes and found crude oil. It is never ending "what's next" around the earth. We start looking at the stars (possibly trying to find God) and find planets, moons, other galaxies!!
If you were a hate filled Lucifer, used to being admired for beauty and music to praise God with? What's wrong with that picture? Satan wanted the praise for HIMSELF. God told Michael the archangel, go take care of that (Satan). Michael hurls him to earth like an asteroid and ouchy, that was one Big Bang. Earth wasn't a garden yet. So Satan is here, bored, making dinosaurs, terrariums, cave dwellers who were eaten by dinosaurs or killing dinosaurs for food. There is no archeological evidence that cave men were religious. There's drawings of hunts, mean neighbors, herds. If there are cave people in heaven I'll make them banana bread cake and K-cups. Point is there been conflicting archeological evidence: pre-Adamic and post-Adamic; post flood. I find it very interesting googling. I find God's hand everywhere.
God wiped out satans projects with His own. Satan still owned the earth till God made first Adam. Adam messed it up giving in to his wife's offering of the fruit. I think he knew it was a bad idea. And it was. Satan May have thought he got the one up, on God, but not so. The WORD of God, Jesus, stepped in to be the 2nd Adam. Score one for the Godhead. Now Satan has to look forward to having his head crushed by Jesus. Genesis 3:15. Satan is not privy to all truth. When Jesus hung dying on the cross, satan thought he had defeated God by killing his only Son. Jesus came out of the grave with the Keys to hell and the Deed to the earth!!
Satan is defeated! His plans for Antichrist will fail too!
If you look up a greek or hebrew word and there is more than one possible meaning and there usually is in most cases and sometimes even twenty meanings, how do you know which one to use to interpret rightly?
1. Context.
2. See how that word is used in other passages that are similar.
Good examples is Dr. Thomas Ice, Professor at Liberty University and one of the biggest names in pre-trib teachers admitted that there isn't one clear verse that teaches a pre-trib rapture. Dr. John Walvoord,Tim Lahaye, and many others admit to this also. Anyhow, when a professor is so desperate to prove something they know they cannot prove Biblically even though they taught it to thousands of their students (Liberty U. is the largest Christian college in the world), they resort to craziness. Now he knows the Greek but chose to state that he thinks the word "apostasia" can also be used as a rapture or harpazo word. It's things like this as to why I left the teaching. God is not trying to trick us. He promised us tribulation, suffering and persecution IF we follow Him and if we live godly lives.
A one day old bible college person knows that word is ALWAYS used 1. in context as DEPARTING from the faith and leaving Jesus as many did and are named in the New Testament and that all the passages that have that word in it teach a departing form the faith. Thomas Ice has to answer to God some day even trying to use that. Most famous pre-trib teachers have come against him on that and rightfully so. But he and a few other guys are still trying to use it.
God Bless!
some of the dumbest people in the world know Greek and Hebrew and enough of it to be dangerous
Me: "This generation" means THIS generation. It would have to be THOSE THAT WERE ALIVE AT THE TIME JESUS SPOKE THAT. MANY WERE ALREADY OLD. IF YOU COMPARE IT TO THE WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE, it was 40 years. And then we have history showing it below form 30 AD to 70 AD. That THIS is the antecedent and WHO Jesus was speaking of. Yes, 40 is standard Bible numbering. 40 can mean trials, temptations. Children of Israel in the wilderness for 40 years. Jesus 40 days on the mount being tempted of the devil. Moses goes up 40 days to receive the 10 commandments, comes down breaks all ten commandments (pun intended when he threw the tablets), went back up another 40 days.
Moses at age 40 decides to follow God and not Pharoah.
Moses kilsl the Egyptian and goes on the backside of the desert for 40 years before comiing to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Moses dies 40 more years later.
There are other passages.
Historically speaking, Jesus died in 30 AD, gave Judah 40 more years to repent (those who didn't receive Him as the Messiah) before judgment came int he Great Revolt.
There are more examples.
Three rules in proper exegesis, CONTEXT. CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Jesus was speaking to that generation in 3 previous chapters all about the same thing. There is no way to get around it. There are three different WORLDS in chapter 24 which changes the whole meaning that pre-trib tries to do. What happened in 70 AD is going to happen again- at least that is my take on it but it will be persecution on a worldwide level. I call this the Dual Prophecy method. In other words, futurism, historicism, preterism and partial preterism all have some truths. Much of Matt. 24 was fulfilled but some things will be and on a greater scale.
ME: I only believed in pre-trib because it was the only thing taught in America until the internet became available. it is all taught in Bible Colleges since 1909. I did my own studying though and that is how I came to my own conclusion. God had to convince me it wasn't right with no presuppositions or eisogesis involved and He did. I want it to be true but I KNOW it is not 1 billion percent. No doubts whatsoever and that is why I started my channel to show people WHY I came to the conclusion I did. It's just getting going. Many are leaving pre-trib doctrine as it teaches more than one gospel which is heresy in itself. Do yourself a favor and at least check out Pastor Sam Adams videos on Scofield. You will be shocked. I'm sure there are a few post-tribbers that are now pre-trib but the pendulum is swinging more and more to post and pre-wrath. Pre-trib was about 99%. If they started teaching all the views in the colleges it wold probably be about 25% that would hold to pre-trib.
YOU: I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appreciate that. Do you read Greek?"
ME: Yes, you can see Paul's writing style, Jewish thought and analogies throughout it. It was never questioned unto the late 1800's by the "higher critics" They question the virgin birth of Jesus and other core doctrines. The original KJB says "written from Italy by Timothy. Timothy, Mark, Luke and others did writing for Paul. I guess I would say 99% sure Paulw as the author
Me: Your welcome. That is go to know you hold to the 66 books.
YOU: I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone.
Me: I heard of people dividing up those other gospels from Matthew but don't see how they can justify it. How do YOU justify it? Yes I have spent a lot of time. I know more than what was presented in Fighting for the Faith (Joe Schimmel', Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson's 5 hour long documentary) on the subject.
1. Why did God banish Satan to the Earth? Or perhaps,
2. Why did God Create Man on the Earth if He had sent Satan to the Earth?
3. Why not keep Satan as far away from His pinnacle of creation, as possible?
4. Why run the risk of having Satan ruin God's perfect work, especially when God already knew (based on His
Omniscience) that Satan was going to ruin everything He did, anyway?
Can you imagine, it takes you a year of hard work and painstaking detail to build this great mansion on the river bank, and along comes this guy from the neighborhood and tears the whole thing down? What's worse, you knew he was going to do exactly that and you could not stop him. But if you knew that, why did you build the house there?
Is God helpless against the devil?
So, what is perfection? You gave a perfect definition of perfect. Something is Perfect when it is complete. It doesn't lack anything. When Christ returns and we are Transformed, we will be Perfect. Paul defines that as indestructible, incorruptible, immortal (having eternal life, if it is different), 1 Cor 15:35-54, with a Heavenly body. An earthly body is of the earth (material). A Heavenly body is forever.
The earthly was weak and limited. It was limited because it could not distinguish between good and evil. Now, did God create man in His image? That's what the Bible says. But what was missing? Would a perfect man, created in the image of God, lack anything? Was anything missing? Is it that God created man to sort of look like Him, but not exactly alike? So what was the problem with Adam and Eve being equipped with the knowledge of good and evil from the moment they were created? Why create them without that? What did the devil say to Eve? You will be like God. And what did God say? They are now in our image. They are like us; with knowledge they didn't have.
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
John 11:26 (KJV) bible
We need to post this often, so people wandering into the room would be aware of the pressure to get it. Preach on Hebrews 11 and maybe examples from Foxes Book of Martyrs.
Look at what is happening now with this virus! The hoarding, the anger at not being able to buy what you want when you want it. It's a preview! People will accept the Mark as a way of getting what they want.
I asked the Lord if 'they' will trick us into that? He said, no. It will be a conscious choice.
This comment forum has a duty to study this and post it to the forum as OFTEN as the subjects of Genesis, the Caught Up (rapture), and unforgivable sins of the Jews.
As much as just those 3 topics.
If the Rapture (caught up) is going to be preached, then give THE DETAILS !
No one in here ever agrees on the Timing of the Caught Up. Ever wonder why?
It's because we are supposed to preach and teach, the WATCH FOR, the LOOK UP....your redemption is close! Have your lamps filled to the top with the OIL of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus. Do be full of Jesus, and HE will draw all mankind to Him.
You have this same responsibility to turn these discussions to more practical discussion. For ONE all water on earth is going to be turned to blood. People who scoff at salvation need to know what they are facing. I'm praying to the Lord of the Harvest to bring people to the Truth of their need.
All of you have great ability to research the Need. What does the Bible say? What did Jesus say? Reveal Revelation. Jesus said , If I be LIFTED up, I will draw all men (and women) to ME! Children over the age of accountability (knowing good vs evil) will have to be reached too. What do soldiers say? No one Left Behind!!
Go ye into the Prayer Request room. They need your learning; your Light.
Were Adam and Eve the only people alive at the time of their infraction? Was Lucifer the only Angel in Heaven when he became corrupt? Don't pull all your hair out or tear up your jacket. I am tempted to explain, but I won't. I'll let you steam in your chair for a while.
2. OK.
3. Maybe I misunderstood what Gen 2:9, Songs 2, Revelation 12:9, Lk 10:18, Isa 14, Ez 28:13, 17, Eze 31. The images presented in these verses are of the devil being banished to the earth and more specifically the Garden of Eden. The imagery of Ezk 31 compares the Tree of KGE with Satan. But let me change my position a little. Perhaps, as you pointed out, the Tree was a real tree. However, it represented Satan's corruption. My thinking is the Tree represented Satan's Kingdom, his realm, where he ruled with the other fallen Angels. I am expanding on the imagery. Trees in the Bible are used, as I previously mentioned, to connote empires, governments, great leaders. Because of the nature of the 2 Trees in the Garden, I think the same applies. I think Songs 2 reflects what happened in Eden.
I disagree that anyone or anything can interfere with God's Plan. He is God and His Will stands. You say Satan successfully ruined God's perfect creation, but I don't see that in the Bible. Just the opposite. What can separate us from God? Nothing, Rom 8:35f. Our confidence is that nothing can ruin God's Plan. If a created, being can ruin what God does, we are in big trouble, Dan 4:35, Isa 14:24-27, 2 Chron 20:6 Isa 43:13, "Even from eternity I am He, and none can deliver out of My hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"
That's found in Exodus 21:24. This law was actually given for restraint. In other words you are only allowed by law that if the man injures your eye, you can only injure his eye, because the desire was that if you injure my eye, you die!
So it was actually restrictive. And Jesus said, and He is actually bringing in a correction. He says, but I say to you, to resist not evil, and whosoever should smite you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. If he takes your coat, let him have your cloak too.
They were only allowed to take your inner coat. They couldn't take your outer coat. Jesus said if they take you to court and they want you inner coat, give them the outer one too.
Thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. That is a whole lot to chew on, and I did read it all. First, I want to make myself clear. I never said that Matthew was written only for Jews. I said Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews. And yes, I agree that the entire bible is written to learn from. It's all God's word. I would not dare discard any of the books, as I find value in every book. I just wanted to clarify that. I don't want people thinking that I am saying that certain parts of the bible are not important. People should hold the entire bible dear to their hearts.
I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone. I would have to assume that there are some who once believed in a post-trib and have changed their minds after spending years in careful study alike? I definitely appreciate your response and the time you put into it. However, I am still Pre-Trib.
I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appeciate that. Do you read Greek?
We all have different points of view. Good thing is that a Forum like this one gives us a chance to discuss and compare. Our views may either strengthen or change. Some Christians worship on Saturday. Some Baptize by immersion. Some believe in transubstantiation. Others believe in Free Will and some don't even believe there will be a Tribulation or Rapture. And they all get that from the same Book. So, in my opinion, no one has a lock on the whole truth. God has given each one of us a little bit, so we don't get puffed up with pride.
I just hope those reading and responding to my posts are not offended by anything I say, unless it is to drive them to the Scriptures that draw them closer to Jesus. Everything, Everything is about Jesus. We think it is about us, but it is about Jesus. He is the one who went to the Cross, suffered a grueling death, defeated death and now sits with the Father until it is time for Him to return to gather us up with Him for all eternity. We should not try to focus the attention on us, our comfort, our enjoyment, and the good life we are promised in Heaven. We must focus on the Victorious, Resurrected Christ who is God. Thank you.
How does that pan out if you are typing erroneous comments? Just curious...
My answers: we're not told what happened to that tree. The Psalms & Hebrews references: clearly metaphorical, but if one had to insist they were not, I wouldn't dispute it as I can't ascertain any other Scripture to support their view. No idea how long the Angels were protecting the Tree of Life: we're not told. Were they cut down, what happened to them or did more trees of knowledge grow there? No idea, except for Rev 2 & 22 references to the Tree of Life.
My connection of Adam to Christ was purely as two who possessed a sinless nature. Both had the capability to be tempted, one failed, the other passed.
My "assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent". Yes, this is my assumption based on the fact that God said to them that if they ate of the fruit or even touched it, they would die. Of course, they didn't die immediately, but sin entered & they died spiritually & eventually, physically. So, death was the direct product of disobedience & sin, but my assumption from the reading is that, since God selected that particular tree for them to stay away from, there is also the thought, that they being debarred from such knowledge was paramount in maintaining their innocence which was in God's design for mankind.
God didn't send "the most corrupt thing in His Creation into the garden". Satan came to it of his own volition & in his plan.
4. "Was (Satan in Eden) it to test Adam's loyalty?" No. Satan came of his own volition to attempt corruption of man. God didn't put man in that situation to test him, but to warn him of partaking of the Tree of KoGaE, so that innocence would perpetually be his/her character. What Satan then did subsequently, was of his doing & not a test from God.
5. "The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation." You cited Heb 7:11; 10:1 in relation to perfection. I understand your correlation of Perfection with Maturity, & this is true in the case of the believer striving for perfection = maturity in Christ. But how do you correlate this Perfection with the lack of Maturity in A & E? I can't see the connection. If man was made perfect by God, nothing else is involved (e.g. no maturity, no analysis skills, no forecasting abilities based on evidence around, indeed, not knowing what is good & what is evil). A perfect human creation is just that: perfect in itself, though not necessarily having the identical personhood & character of the Creator.
Carlos, following threads is now getting difficult, so can only comment on points (hopefully the latest ones) that I see.
1. How does "man (Adam) eat the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality". So, is it the imagery of eating but not in actuality that you mean here? So then the fruit wasn't real, then probably not the Tree. Was the Garden real? I'm confused; my normal logical mind can't grasp such a concept, in that what is real anymore.
2. I have never believed that Angels could die (which implies mortality); they are eternal beings incapable of 'immortality' (like them, man will one day be in eternity). The only judgement for wicked Angels is not death, but the Lake of Fire.
3. "Was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation?" Yes. And "Why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden?" This is new to me. Do you have a reference for this? The only one I know is Rev 12:9, where God had cast him onto the Earth. And Ezek 28:13, but this shows that he was in Eden (maybe referring to the temptation where he sought out A & E), not cast down to Eden.
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Thank you for your kindness. Please know that you have not upset me by any means. As far as who's right and who's wrong, I try to avoid those things. I know I can be wrong also. I've said this before and I'll say it again: My strongest point as a believer in my relationship with Christ is to confess my spiritual stupidity. I confess to the Lord that I don't know. And even if I did know, I wouldn't know. Even if God did send me a message, how do I know it is from God? I don't. I plead dumb sheep. I plead I can be deceived and I'm trusting totally in Christ. When I began to take that approach and that position before Christ there was never any doubt about what the Lord wanted me to do. Everything was so definite. I did what He did. That's it! Where He goes, I go, and where I go, He goes, if that makes sense? I know my position will always be behind Christ. He said follow me. I don't walk beside Him, and I don't walk ahead of Him. My position will always be behind Him.
I think we could both agree that we sometimes let our own human pride get in the way of having healthy conversations. I myself am guilty of that. I consider myself to be very narrow minded when it comes to the things of the Lord. If that's considered a fault, that's a fault I don't mind having. You tell me that I can believe anything I want, and I wish it were that easy but it's not. And you and I, and any other believer for that matter, there's no such thing as being less of a Christian, just like there's no such thing as a believer lacking faith. I hope you understand what I mean by that.
Anyway, thank you again. It is good talking with you also. Stay in the word my friend. I'm sure we'll speak again. The Lord is good!
Yes, that is what the Bible says. Those that are alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPTO or survive) UNTO the coming (parousia or physical return).
What are we surviving from if we are taken before it gets real bad?
Also the word klepto would have been used by the Holy Spirit instead of harpazo if there was a 'secret' rapture. But he used the word that means to seize, pluck, pull. Why? None of us would survive the wrath of God that starts to get poured out after Satan's wrath. In 70 AD God pulled the saved ones out of Jerusalem and had them go into the wilderness and they were protected right before Titus' army destroyed the city. Noah was protected in the flood. Lot taken out but still on the planet. Whether it is a pre-wrath rapture or post-trib (I lean toward post-trib), God has a certain number of us who will be martyred and some that will be protected. So whether He pulls us out and puts us in a safe place or pulls us out in a pre-wrath rapture, His will will be done. This is my take brother. It woudl be great if you can take my END TIMES survey on my youtube channel.
I'm not saying there isn't an Old Testament verse that talks about some going back into the land at some point. The Ethiopian and Eritrean Joos have been trying to migrate into Israel for about 10 years now and are rejected because they are black - a little hidden secret by many teachers. They are true blood Jews. I believe God started this work about 10 years ago so I believe we have no more than 30 more years before Jesus' return to set up His millennial reign.
The rapture had to take place no later than 1988 if 1948 is true. A Biblical generation is always 40 years or less. We have several passages in scripture with the number 40 in it. They are trying to now use a passage in Psalms out of context to make a generation 70 top 80 years. Ask Hal Lindsey and many others who predicted a pre-1988 rapture based on the 1948 Balfour Declaration (British/U.N.). Half the Joos live in America and most in New York City. They for the most part reject what goes on over there and many over there reject what is going on. That is why they predicted it. It is based on what they can see over what is really happening. Many Christians in Palestine were ethnic cleansed once the 1950's hit and not by Muslims. I will leave it at that. Would God do that to His people?
Matthew 24 only says, "his disciples came to him" yet Mark 13:3 actually tells you the FOUR disciples that came to Him with their three questions. It wasn't all of them.
But the entire Bible is written to all people to learn from. Jesus even said, "Had you believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote of me." Most modern sects don't even believe the Old Testament all by itself even though Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies that are in the Old Testament. If they didn't believe Moses, and didn't believe Jesus, why would you think they are going to read Matthew?