John Chapter 6 Discussion



 
  • D W L on John 6:53
    Marke - Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

    18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and (falling) headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

    Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression (fell), that he might go to his own place.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    How can you fall out of a tree if you never was in the tree? It makes people feel good to think they are going to heaven no matter what they do. Many people are going to be deceived and fail because they love not the truth.
  • Miller6638 - in Reply on John 6
    Interesting stuff. There is also found in Romans 8 regarding predestination and who we are in Christ, one of my favorite chapters in the bible. God bless.
  • Richard H Priday on John 6
    John 6 on Predestination.

    This appears to be the longest chapter in scripture outside Psalm 119 and the Genealogies. The theme of verse 37; 39; 44 and 65 continue to hammer out the exclusivity of all those called; chosen and therefore elected by God the Father for Christ to be revealed to. This is interwoven throughout the book of John in particular; but is evident in many other scriptures as well.

    Notice the approach of Christ; He is continuing to "weed" out those who are truly going to be disciples from all those following Him for other reasons. He always waits for questions from people; then responds with the true condition of their hearts; then explains what is really going on to blind men to the truth.

    First we see those who were fed that tenaciously went to the other side of the lake of Tiberius after they wondered how Christ got across to the other side. He didn't bother telling them that He walked on the water; simply stated that they should believe in v. 29 before the first statement in v. 34 on God's election.

    Verses 41-43 show the problem in not recognizing Jesus as God in the flesh. He gets back into election in v. 44; then into the subject of living manna. The subject of eating Hs flesh and drinking His blood were meant to describe what goes on in the spirit. Certain disciples at that time left Him. Despite the 12 affirming His deity; Christ knew that one chosen to be the son of perdition would betray Him. (v. 70). This had to be hidden from everyone else lest they stop God's plan from coming to total fruition. The ways of God are beyond our comprehension ( Deut. 29:29).
  • Marke - in Reply on John 6:53
    Reply to Adam.

    1 John 3:9 tells us

    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (We are the sons of God right now)

    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (All true believers will purify themselves. Fake believers will not.)

    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (Jesus takes away all sins of true believers, past, present, and future.)

    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (Those who continue to abide in Jesus do not continue to live in sin.)

    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (Sinners who live in sin are of the devil.)

    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (True Christians cannot sin because their Godly nature is miraculously united as one with the Spirit of God who cannot sin.)

    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Marke,

    I agree with you and Mishael brings up a great point in that Judas was called the son of perdition. Son of perdition is a title, and in the Bible, that's only given to two people; Judas Iscariot and the antichrist that is yet to come. He's called the son of perdition, the son of destruction, which means this is who he was and has been his entire life.

    Jesus said I have not lost one, except the son of perdition (Judas), and then the Greek text gives a (purpose clause/INA), in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus answered them, "have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil," a demon.

    Jesus didn't choose Judas to be a devil. He says one of you is already a devil. I'm choosing you as already being a devil. But it is interesting that Satan entered into him.

    Now this whole concept of Judas Iscariot in God's plan helps us to understand how God works with people. Some people call it predestination.



    Jesus did not predestine Judas to be evil. But Jesus had to choose an evil man to do the evil purpose which God planned. God already knows who is going to choose Christ and who is going to choose evil.



    He already knows that. So if He is going to choose someone to be in amongst God's people to fulfill His Scripture in an evil way, He will pick out somebody who is already evil.

    I don't believe Judas was ever saved. Judas was evil from the very beginning. Even though Judas was part of the fellowship for 3 years, he remained evil the entire time.

    We know he was stealing money from the money bag. The Bible tells us that he was a thief. It would be hard for me to describe someone as evil as Judas as being a Christ follower. And yet, some choose to call him that, and some believe he was saved at one point.

    To call Judas a Christ follower would be equivalent to saying that everyone who goes to church on a regular basis is a Christ follower and is saved. I wonder how many like Judas are in our fellowships today?
  • Adam - in Reply on John 6:53
    Hello Marke,

    It sounds like we're getting closer to the root of your belief. I noticed you used statements in the "If... then..." format to draw some assumptions. Here is an example:

    You: "If we assume this passage speaks of Christians who get saved but then lose it again for violating the whole law of God then we must assume nobody will ever be saved in the end except those Christians who die immediately after receiving Christ."

    The first part of your sentence is correct as James 1:1 says he's a Christian and he's writing to 12 tribes and is right away instructing them to not worry about temptations because their faith will build patience (verse 3). Most of Paul's books were to Christians churches too and it usually says this in the first verse of each. So, it's safe to say that yes, the book of James is for Christians.

    While the first part of your sentence rings true, the last part is what sounded alarm bells. "we must assume nobody will ever be saved in the end except those Christians who die immediately after receiving Christ."

    No, I don't know anyone who assumes that or where that idea comes from? Is it possible that you're engaging in black or white thinking and through that filter you aren't seeing a difference between an imperfect (normal) grace-covered Christ follower and a Christian who decides to denounce Christ and go in a different direction? One scenario is a normal person covered by grace while following the Lord, the other is someone who chooses to no longer follow the Lord- not covered.

    Example:

    Let's say you're driving down a freeway towards Seattle. You may encounter traffic, you may swerve to avoid obstacles on the road, you may even get lost and exit off and recollect yourself, you may even get a flat tire, but overall you're still following the path to your destination. However, if you at some point made a choice to turn around and go in the opposite direction, then you would no longer be going to Seattle. This is a metaphor for following Christ.
  • Marke - in Reply on John 6:53
    Reply to Giannis.

    John 6:70

    Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    Jesus said Judas "is a devil," not "will become a devil."

    The record of John 6 was long before the record of John 13.

    John 13:2

    And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

    If Judas was ever made righteous by faith, where is the evidence? He walked with Jesus but so did others who were not saved.

    Jesus said of Judas in Mark 14:

    21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

    The OT prophesied of Judas

    Psalm 109:6-8

    King James Version

    6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

    7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

    I believe Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was unsaved and would never get saved and chose him to serve alongside the other 11 apostles just the same.

    8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
  • Marke - in Reply on John 6:53
    Reply to Adam.

    Matt. 7:23. Jesus says "I never knew you," not "I once knew you before you fell away."

    Hebrews 6:4-9. Tasting and not drinking in this passage is described as demonstrating that those professing Christians do not possess those things that accompany genuine salvation.

    James 2. If we assume this passage speaks of Christians who get saved but then lose it again for violating the whole law of God then we must assume nobody will ever be saved in the end except those Christians who die immediately after receiving Christ.

    1 Peter 1:13. If we assume salvation depends on us buckling up and holding on tight to the side of the ark after we are saved to be saved until the end then we must also assume that Jesus did not die for all our sins, just those sins in our past. If Jesus did not die for the sins that were in our future when we got saved, then who will ever be saved in the end? What kind of sin will cause a believer to end up in hell after he was once saved?

    Peter did not blaspheme the Holy Ghost in the courtyard. That is not what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. If Peter did blaspheme in the courtyard so what? Jesus said all sins and blasphemies will be forgiven sinners, both saved and lost, except for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit as a result of rejecting the message of the Holy Spirit pointing sinners to Jesus for salvation. Once a sinner receives the message of the Holy Spirit and gets saves he can no longer blaspheme the Holy Spirit leading him to be saved because the Holy Spirit will never again lead him to be saved after he is already saved.

    Mark 3:28-29

    King James Version

    28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
  • Adam - in Reply on John 6:53
    Judas Iscariot was a Christ follower, literally and figuratively. Mark 3:14-19. He was one of Jesus's chosen disciples and was given power to cast out demons.

    Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, died a horrible death, and will probably go to hell. So, this example only supports the scriptures that already say you still have freewill to turn from Jesus if you are a Christian. What better proof do we need by scripture saying it, examples of it happening to people, real examples of people doing it today (including Christian pastors). I don't buy the argument that some say "they were never Christians to begin with" as that position contradicts itself, because those who say that can't define what a Christian is or how they know they are one. If one Googles prominent pastors who have lost their faith, denounced Christianity and denounced Jesus of course there are many. There's also a Reddit forum called ex-Christian. It's easy to talk to them and find out if they are real or not. Obviously they are. So, someone claiming that they aren't real is denying reality that they are, and if they say they were never Christian, talk to them yourselves- of course they were. They were just like you. This is why the Bible says to keep the armor of God on, all the parable warnings, etc.

    Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

    Matthew 7:21-23

    Hebrews 6:4-6

    James 2:14-26

    James 2:19

    1 Peter 1:13

    Romans 11

    Simon Peter denied Jesus 3 times and I think that would normally be considered blasphemy of the holy spirit the unforgiveable sin. But I believe Jesus restored him in a special circumstance in John 21:11-25 as you notice he first reconfirmed if Peter believed He was Lord, then asked him 3 times if He loved Him (using different Love meanings) and then in 19 said to Follow me. This appears to be a rededication to restore Peter as a follower and Christian.

    God bless
  • Giannis - in Reply on John 6:53
    Dear Mark, if Judas was never saved then Jesus chose a devil to serve Him as an apostole? He baptised him, sent him ro baptise other people, sent him to preach salvation to Israelites like the rest of the apostles, to perform miracles knowing that he was a devil? Does this make sense? He became devil later on when he let satan and not Jesus to work in him. Remember Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts? GBU
  • Mishael - in Reply on John 6:53
    One of Judas's names in the Bible is son of Perdition
  • Marke on John 6:53
    Judas was never saved so he did not lose his salvation, according to John 6:70.

    John 6:70

    Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    Jesus did not say, "One of you disciples may fall back into sin if he is not careful." No, Jesus said, "One of you is a devil," referring to Judas.
  • T. Levis - in Reply on John 6
    John 6:39-40, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Revelations 1:7, hopefully these are helpful.
  • Michael Xippas on John 6
    Explain Jesus wil raise him up in the last days John ch
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Patricia,

    All glory to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
  • Patricia - in Reply on John 6:53
    Thank you for your explanation as it helped me to finally understand the verse(s). Thank you very much for taking the time to explain...to me it's a super-important learning curve. Great explanation. Thanks again.
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Brother Spencer, thank you. may the Lord continue to bless you also!
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Thanks Earl. The Lord is good!
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Thanks David. Yes, it is sort of amusing. And these were religious leaders!
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply on John 6:53
    Amen and Amen, Brother Jesse!
  • S Spencer - in Reply on John 6:53
    Great reply Brother Jesse.

    God bless you and all you do.
  • Rick - in Reply on John 6:53
    Hi Edna This is an indication of how far out Israel or Judean beliefs got away from the scripture and how blinded the adversary had them, many times we read in the gospels it is written by the prophets or Jesus Christ himself. Now the scribes and pharisees and sadducees new the scripture but used to there advantage corrupt.
  • David - in Reply on John 6:53
    Hi Jesse It always amuses me that they still didn't get it, but then I ask would I have. By the way good stuff!
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Edna, here is (Part 2)

    John chapter 6 is all a picture from God of symbolism, or metaphorical use if you will, about the salvation message. It is not just about believing that Jesus died for you, and shed His blood for you, but you must take Him in, spiritually. You must feed on Christ spiritually. He is the bread of life!

    How we chase after things in the human, we think "Oh I am missing out in life because I don't have these things?" Do you have Christ? Oh yeah. Then we are pursuing the things in the flesh, because in the spirit, we will never hunger and never thirst because we are fellowshipping with and feeding on the bread of life constantly.

    So Jesus is presenting Himself as that Lamb, Jewish symbolism! It is not something that you just believe about. It is someone that you take in. So He says no more physical miracles of feeding you with physical food.

    Now it's all spiritual. Now you must be satisfied with me. I am the bread of life, not the physical bread, but the spiritual bread. And from now on you must feed on me and if you feed on me you will live.

    Verse 63 is key. It says "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    The word quickeneth means make alive. It is the spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing: Did you catch that? There is no spiritual benefit in the flesh. Zero! The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    They are not physical. It is spirit. It is not physical life, it is spiritual life. So He says everything that I just told you about my flesh, and my blood, take that and change it into spiritual metaphors and you'll have what it means.

    I hope what I've shared helps.
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 6:53
    Hello Edna,

    Something to keep in mind is that it wasn't the miracles they came to see. They came because their bellies were being fed and they wanted more. In John 6:48, Jesus calls Himself the bread of life. But go back to verse 31. They say to Jesus "Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat." You see, they wanted more physical food.

    Then in Verse 49, Jesus says "Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead." So do you want to bring in the manna gift thing again? God provided physical food for them but they are dead!" In verse 50, Jesus says "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die." Jesus is not referring to His physical body. He's speaking about spiritual nourishment.

    But the Jews are really perplexed by this. In fact, that's the reason and the teaching why multitudes of these people left. Remember, these are the 15,000 to 20,000 people that were fed the day before. And now they are listening and they think He's talking about cannibalism.

    What does He mean? He goes on to explain it to the disciples, but He doesn't explain it to the public. His words are spirit and they are life. It is not flesh. When He says "Eat of my flesh and drink of my blood," we have to think about it from a Jewish perspective.

    Remember when Jesus was introduced to Israel, He was introduced as the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world? In the book of Exodus, it wasn't just the blood over the door posts that saved a household from the Angel of death, in order for the Angel of death to Passover. Yes, there had to be blood on the door posts. But one of the requirements was that the lamb from whom the blood came, you had to eat that lamb, and eat every bit of it that night, nothing left over. You had to actually participate with the lamb whose blood is on your door post.

    I'm running out of space and will have to send a part 2.
  • David - in Reply on John 6:53
    Hi Edna It's amazing to me that 12 stuck around of course God knew, this guy spoke and did more miraculous things in a day then perhaps we'll see in a lifetime, they didn't know it was figurative that's why some left because they thought he lost it. But as peter said thou hast taught us the words of life and all Jesus Christ actions and works were life giving just like His Father's. At that time he was talking about the future holy communion, and after they were born again they understood.
  • Edna on John 6:53
    Why were the disciples offended to the point of abandoning Jesus when he said "eat my flesh and drink my blood" ,if it was only a symbol? When Jesus says it again he says it more strongly not less. He doesn't say it's a symbol. He says "Eat/gnaw on my flesh". Seems like the Jews/disciples were completely grossed out and scandalized and though they had seen all Jesus's miracles ,chose to abandon him.
  • Joseph Payne on John 6
    It says "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

    But ACTS 2:21 I believe says anyone who professes that I am Lord will be saved.

    Not saying the Bible is a lie. But slightly confused by these two. One says anyone who says Me is saved. Then other says Only Lord calls His children.

    Help?
  • BSP on John 6
    Verse 44-Nobody can come to Jesus unless God draws that person.
  • BSP on John 6
    Verse 40-Jehovah God promises to reward those who put faith in him and his son with everlasting life and if these faithful ones have passed away God has offered the hope of a resurrection.


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