Dixie, the closest passage that comes to mind in the NT is found in James 1:19: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath". But this verse would apply generally, that a person ought to listen first & then speak and certainly in the case with God, that we would always have our ears inclined towards Him.
We see the division of the Land of Canaan "by lot" quite often, beginning at Joshua 13:6: "All the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon unto Misrephothmaim, and all the Sidonians, them will I drive out from before the children of Israel: only divide thou it by lot unto the Israelites for an inheritance, as I have commanded thee."
We're not told how Joshua made the "division of the land for an inheritance unto the nine tribes, and the half tribe of Manasseh" (v7), whether by a Word from God or by simply dividing up the land & allocating portions to the tribes of Israel (not forgetting that Levi, Manasseh & Ephraim received no allocation). Maybe, the tribes that received their portions had some say as to where they would prefer to settle on the western side of the Jordan River. So to 'divide by lot' in this case, would mean to allocate the land to the various tribes, whether by 'lottery' or specifically according to the tribes' preferences.
Again I thank you for your replies. As it is our destiny to grow in the Spirit of Christ and see with His eyes.
As the ways of God are beyond what I could fathom. Truly my faith in God and Jesus Christ being, that whatever the way of the Lord is, I know it is the right way and I am His forever. Even if I don't understand. Keeping root in the Word with a pure heart and staying close to the Lord. He shall direct us down the straight and narrow path. His Will shall be done.
Weather we believe "hell" to be a place of eternal torment like stated in Matthew 25:46. Or as you explain. It is a place we do not want to go or have anything to do with. Christ stating in Matthew 10:28.
As we who are in Christ here are Blessed to have been chosen by Him to be His.
In 1 Corinthians 16:22 stating those who "love not the Lord"(not with the Lord) to basically let him be set aside for the coming Judgement of the Lord.
A couple about saving a soul. As we can only plant or water, it is God who gives the growth. James 5:19-20, Jude 1:23.
Again thank you for your time and posts brother. It means a lot.
It means that we enter into God's rest. It's speaking about salvation. In Chapter 4, the writer is going back to creation. He's saying if you surrender to Christ, you will be doing just what God did. You will cease from your own works, your own efforts, at your own salvation, you will cease from your own works, and you will enter into God's rest.
When a person receives Jesus Christ and has been born of His Spirit, that person enters into His rest.
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and His understanding.
I believe if there is a second death; there has to also be a first death.
Two resurrections; therefore, two deaths.
God is no respector of person; therefore, if the ones in second resurrection die (are judged) in the lake of fire; the ones in the first resurrection also die (are judged) in the lake of fire.
When Christ caused us to become one with him (CHRIST IN US) we we cast into (CHRIST) the lake of fire. To partake of the bread of life and the fountain of living water we also have to partake of the judgement of fire. As the bread and water gives us life, the fire cleanses and purifies us. We are being judged in the lake of fire (word of God) now; therefore, we want have our part in the lake of fire at the second resurrection.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is APPOINTED unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:
We died with Christ on the Cross (first death). We are being judged IN CHRIST now, BY THE WORD, BY FIRE. Those appointed the second death will be judged IN CHRIST ( Hebrews 10:31), BY THE WORD, BY FIRE.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once for the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear a SECOND TIME (NOW, to those in the first resurrection the second coming is NOW; we don't have to wait for the literal appearance of Christ) WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION.
For those in the second resurrection their judgement IN CHRIST is going to last awhile. Matthew says those that blaspheme the Holy Spirit want be saved in this age or the next age. This age so far has lasted 2000 years. We don't know how long the next age will last.
I believe those in the second resurrection will be raised back in bodies of flesh. The first resurrection, glorified bodies.
Revelation 20:7 ...Satan (flesh) will be loosed out of his prison (death and the grave),
1 Corinthians 15:40 celestial (glorified); terrestrial (flesh and blood)
Sacha, it is possible that the OT folk knew something of a suffering beyond the grave, but I agree that there's not a lot mentioned in that respect. We could look at Daniel 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Here the thought is that those who die will awake (resurrection?), some to everlasting life & some to everlasting contempt. So even if one doesn't believe in a never-ending suffering, this verse shows that the dead don't remain dead but arise to some sort of judgement & punishment that doesn't end.
Isaiah 30:33: "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." In this verse, the word "Tophet" is used & in the Greek (NT) is translated as Gehenna. This was a place near Jerusalem, in which the idolatrous Israelites used to offer up their children to Moloch. It may be put, for any place of torment; and particularly it is put for hell. "For the king": For the king of Assyria. "Fire": He alludes to the ancient custom, of burning sacrifices, and particularly of burning children to Moloch. "The breath": The immediate Hand of God, or His Word of anger. "Brimstone": alludes to that shower of fire and brimstone seen in Gen 19:24. Though this verse doesn't speak of an after death judgement, it reveals its counterpart in the NT.
You can also look at Isaiah 66:22-24. So I can't say why there was not more written about this subject in the OT & even among Jews there are different camps as to what to believe. For me, I think it sufficient that Jesus spoke very clearly about it & treated the everlasting suffering of the sinner as real & it was for this reason He came so that none should fall under the Hand of God ( Hebrews 10:31).
I'm sorry Sacha: and why is this Scripture given to me? If you are thinking that the Scripture is intended to show that God will do nothing about those who have rejected Him & therefore just leave them in the grave, then I don't believe that this indicates this at all. But then again, I might be mistaken by your intentions, so I apologize for writing my next paragraph (which may not be what you're wanting).
So here goes: Amos 3:7 read in context from the beginning of the chapter, tells us about Amos' rebuke against Israel: just as a lion doesn't roar when hunting for its prey; as a lion cub won't cry out if it is satisfied with food; as a bird can't be snared if there is no trap; as a (warning) trumpet will not sound if there is no danger to the people - so too with God - He will remain quiet ("He will do nothing") to His people, but will reveal His secrets (or, His intentions) to His prophets. So the message here is that when the prophet (of God) is commanded to speak by God, the people better sit up & listen hard, as the judgement of God is about to fall upon them.
If this is not what you are anticipating, then please write further. Thank you.
Thank you very much for all your time replying with me brother Earl. As the ways of God are far surpassing what I could fully understand. I truly am a baby in Christ. Though I am His for eternity and all I want to do is His Will and make our Lord happy.
I very much appreciate all you have shared with me Earl.
May our Father pour His Blessings upon you my brother.
I very much appreciate your time. As your reply lead me to do some reading about the "resurrections". Us in Christ being part of the first resurrection having no part in the lake of fire or "second death". Revelation 20:6.
As our Lord Jesus Christ being raised from the dead is our confirmation that there shall be a resurrection of our actual physical bodies. Acts 17:24-31.
In that the second resurrection is for all the people quoted in Revelation 21:8 as you stated. Those who are not with Christ.
As you have stated before "all shall worship God" with Scripture of it. As it is detailed in the Book of Enoch this is also correct though it shall not save them. From the second death or the lake of fire.
62.5 And one half of them will look at the other, and they will be terrified, and will cast down their faces, and pain will take hold of them when they see that Son of a woman sitting on the throne of His Glory.
62.6 And the mighty kings, and all those who possess the earth, will praise and bless and exalt Him who rules everything that is hidden.
62.7 For from the beginning that Son of Man was hidden, and the Most High kept Him in the presence of His power, and revealed Him only to the chosen.
62.9 And all the mighty kings, and the exalted, and those who rule the dry ground, will fall down before Him, on their faces, and worship; and they will set their hopes on that Son of Man, and will entreat Him, and will petition for mercy from Him.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
Do you agree with these Scriptures?
As I also just want to be clear in what you believe the "second death" is. That this is where those souls/spirits will be separated from God, and us, for eternity? Or something else?
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
If were are judged by Christ, sanctified by Christ, justified by Christ, cleansed by Christ, saved by Christ and our God is a consuming fire; therefore we have our part in the lake of fire or the fire of the Lord.
Being one with Christ we also become the fire of the Lord. Those in the second resurrection are going to be judge by fire (us). They will be resurrected in TORMENTS not having living water.
Zachariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto (new) Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of host, even upon them SHALL BE NO RAIN (living water).
Amos 8:11 Behold the days comes, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of (natural) bread, nor a thirst for (natural) water, but of hearing the WORDS OF GOD (living bread and living water)
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
The lake of fire is the same thing; that, in the Old Testament was called the Fire of the Lord. Natural eyes see this as literal fire; but is it?
Judges 6:20 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, take the flesh and unleavened cakes (represents us) and lay them upon this rock (represents Christ), and pour out the broth And he did so.
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and unleavened cakes (US), and there rose up fire from OUT OF THE ROCK (OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE), and consumed the flesh and unleavened cakes (US).
Zachariah 14:12 ......Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet....
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword (is the word of GOD, God is FIRE) of him upon the horse, which sword (WORD) proceeded out of his mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their (own) flesh.
To understand who the fowls are; we have to go to the parable of the sower of the seed.
Luke 8:5 A sower went out to so his seed; and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the FOWLS OF THE AIR devoured it.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are those that hear, then cometh the devil (fowls or the air)....
Luke 13:19 It (kingdom of heaven; Christ in you) is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air (devil) lodged therein.
John 15:5 I am the vine; ye are the branches (where the fowls lodge)...
Psalms 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the air have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out DEVILS by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God (CHRIST IN YOU) is come unto you.
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with his wisdom and His understanding.
There is two groups of people in God's Kingdom. The ones being called NOW; resurrected with Christ, will be the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
Revelation 5:10
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, SHALL BE GIVEN to the people of the saints (priest) of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and ALL DOMINIONS SHALL SERVE AND OBEY HIM (being made one with Christ they will obey us also).
Those raised at the second resurrection are the ones under the authority of God's priest and judges.
Brother Richard, it should be Psalms 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates, even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in (to new Jerusalem).
Thank you for your reply earl. I like that about us being the precious stones. One thing is the Psalms verse you quoted about the one pearl. Seems to be a little typo as Psalms 23 only goes up to verse 6. I'm interested in the verse you have for that.
As we are the tabernacle of God where He dwells. Revelation 21:3. If I may ask one question. In Revelation 21:7-8. How God speaks of two "groups" of people. They that overcometh which are His. Then basically the wicked who have their part in the lake of fire. How do you perceive this?
As you stated Revelation not being "literal" (which shall disappear or pass away). I understand as those things being in the Spirit world and not of this physical world which is all vanity. The breadth of God. Job 34:14-15.
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
Thank you for looking up the word "torments."
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and TORMENTS, and those that were possessed with devils, and those that were lunatick, and those that had the palsy, AND HE HEALED THEM.
Luke 16:23 And in hell (grave) he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of TORMENT.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting, O grave (hell), were is thy victory?
If I am not mistaken; the same Greek word is used in both Luke 16:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:55. Therefore; Christ, at his resurrection, had victory over both; DEATH and the GRAVE (hades) and HELL (hades).
I BELIEVE that both verse mean the grave. Death and the grave are the wages of sin.
Since Judah was the only one that had five brothers and the Pharisees claimed to be of the house of Judah. Jesus was telling the Pharisees the first will be last and the last will be first. They WOULD NOT be part of the first resurrection but would have to wait until the second resurrection. They would be in TORMENT(not having drank from the living water); but after the second resurrection they would be healed as described in Matthew 4:24.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED.....
Nice. That site I usually use for paralleling verses from different versions of the Bible.
I agree with your perception on the "fear of God". When you are with the Lord and have a fear/reverence and pure love to Him. Being His precious child. Giving yourself to Him. There is nothing else to fear. Not even the devil himself.
Annet, you may be referring to Lilith found in some Jewish folklore, Sumerian and Babylonian stories. I believe she is described as some kind of demon of the night with the sound of a screech owl. You can google her name, but there is no evidence in scripture of her and Eve was Adams first and only wife by scripture. A lot of these myths were written from stories about the time of Nimrod like Gilgamesh, be careful it is a large rabbit hole.
No problem, please don't take any of my replies harshly. We are conversing peacefully. Saying I don't understand why you quoted those verses to what I stated is that the Holy Bible teaches of a place of eternal torment, or simply hell, and this is not my own teaching(or commandment of men). It is from the Word of God. Also the verses from Revelation. A place of eternal torment is from the Scriptures. Those two contexts of questions was just to show how one way would do no wrong, in the end, and the other way would lead to damnation. The reason I believe in a "hell". Because of the Holy Bible.
Here's other verses not in the NT about this "place". Just to show there are records of this before the NT. From the Book of Enoch.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
62.11 And the Angels of Punishment will take them so that they may repay them for the wrong that they did to His children and to His chosen ones.
63.10 Then they will say to them: "Our souls are sated with possessions gained through iniquity, but they do not prevent our going down into the flames of the torment of Sheol."
108.4 And there I saw something like a cloud, which could not be discerned, for because of its depth I was not able to look into it. And the flames of a fire I saw, burning brightly, and things like bright mountains revolved and shook from side to side.
108.5 And I asked one of the Holy Angels, who were with me, and I said to him: "What is this bright place? For there is no sky, but only the flames of a burning fire, and the sounds of crying, and weeping, and moaning, and severe pain."
108.6 And he said to me: "This place which you see; here will be thrown the spirits of the sinners, blasphemers, those who do evil, and of those who alter everything that the Lord has spoken through the mouths of the prophets. "
Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS knowledge.
HEAVEN
Flesh sees everything as natural. Heaven to natural eyes is out there somewhere. In Revelation where new Jerusalem is described; flesh sees this as a literal city with literal mansions and literal streets and literal trees and literal rivers. Bodies that have been glorified don't need houses or streets or walls or gates. We are the houses (mansions) of God, we are the streets of gold, we are the foundations of the city, we are NEW JERUSALEM. Revelation describes the foundation as twelve precious and costly stones. We are those (living) ( 1 Peter 2:4) stones that make up the city of new Jerusalem. We are the gates made of one pearl ( Psalms 23:9). Revelation represents something that is not LITERAL (which shall disappears)
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, SIGNIFIETH the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are MADE, that those things WHICH CANNOT BE SHAKEN REMAIN.
This is why you don't see prophecies of heaven; WE ARE HEAVEN, WHERE GOD DWELLS.
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven (you) shall be SHAKEN.
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the WICKED might be SHAKEN out of it?
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
We are the stars of heaven (God's promise to Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven)
The powers (of Satan that rules by natural flesh) in heaven (US) shall be SHAKEN (flesh will be destroyed and replaced by Spirit)
Revelation is all about the removing of the LITERAL and replacing with the SPIRIT.
What I was hoping to compare is the word for fear in 1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear) vs. Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell).
So, I found Bible Hub has a Greek interlinear comparison and found the following:
1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear): fear = Phobos/phobon (fear, terror, alarm; object or cause of fear; reverence, respect.
Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell): fear = phobthte (to frighten, be alarmed by. By analogy, to be in awe of; Revere.)
It appears to be the same root word, but just like in English its common to have different meanings for the same word, like the word 'conceive'. So, I believe at bare minimum fearing God means to be in upmost awe of and reverence. The context of being afraid of the one who can send you to hell seems to indicate a dose of real fear as well, maybe similar to a child being afraid when they risk doing something wrong and fear punishment by their parents, but I think this is different than fear/terror that perhaps is used in 1 John 4:18, that perfect love will get rid of that.
Interested if anyone else has another perspective on this.
Hi Richard in Christ , im very sorry if you dont understand my refference to your words : i just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isnt what wrong are we doing ? and Jesus saying : But in vain do they worship me ,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men ,and from revelation : For i testify unto every man that heareth the words if the prophecy of this book , If any man shall add unto these things ,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book . Im very sorry if you cant see how your words are connected to these references .
Unknown at that time ,at that time ,God had a very up close and personal relationship with Israel ,He appeared to them often and spoke to them often throug signs and wonders and prophets ,do you think He would have kept something as important as that from His witnesses ? If yes ,why do you think He would have kept something as important as that from His witnesses ? Im giving up now ,i know what you think and i know what i know , i hope we can chat on a different subject some time ,love in Christ .p.s. Thats not a rhetorical question ,please answer if thats ok with you .
Hi Sacha. You're bringing the OT to find justification for "eternal torture by hideous demons". And you're right, you won't find it here as that was unknown at that time. All that was quoted was the word 'sheol', which sometimes applied to hell or the grave and often, as in Psalm 37, the wicked will be "cut off" of suffer under the Hand of God. Nowhere do we see a Lake of Fire & eternal suffering.
And that is why we have all of Scripture to consider on this matter. If all we had was the OT, then I could well agree with you that death was our punishment & final resting place. But the NT, specifically Jesus' own Words while on Earth (the Gospels) & from Heaven (the Revelation), show us more of this place of punishment which wasn't revealed in its fullness in the OT.
And yet I thought further on this matter & the Gospel now given to us. Let's suppose, I, as an unbeliever was being witnessed to by you & you spoke to me about the life-changing, life-giving message of the Gospel through God's Son. You talked about the resurrection to eternal life & eternal bliss with God, forever enjoying God's Presence & Heaven's blessings. But I, as a hardened sinner, asked "what would happen if I enjoyed my sinful lifestyle as it gave me much pleasure & refused God's offer of salvation?" Of course, your response would be, "as an unrepentant sinner, rejecting God's offer of salvation, you would not be received into God's Kingdom & you wouldn't have eternal life". But I insist, "but what happens to me & those who refuse to accept Jesus as my Saviour?" Your answer would have to be, "you will remain in the grave, dead, & lost without any hope". And I would say, "well we all have to die & some of us (most of us) will just remain dead". Do you see what I'm saying Sacha? Death is not the punishment - we all have to experience it because we're sinners. The Gospel in its fullness is 'salvation through faith in Jesus Christ from both sin's penalty & eternal punishment'. They both go together.
We're not told how Joshua made the "division of the land for an inheritance unto the nine tribes, and the half tribe of Manasseh" (v7), whether by a Word from God or by simply dividing up the land & allocating portions to the tribes of Israel (not forgetting that Levi, Manasseh & Ephraim received no allocation). Maybe, the tribes that received their portions had some say as to where they would prefer to settle on the western side of the Jordan River. So to 'divide by lot' in this case, would mean to allocate the land to the various tribes, whether by 'lottery' or specifically according to the tribes' preferences.
Theme: Christ's prophecy what is to come in the future.
Intro: Christ prophesied Matthew 24 when He was departing from the temple: the disciples
followed Him and asked Him a question that triggered the disciples' hearts, Jesus tells them that
Jerusalem including the temple shall be destroyed. False religion, false doctrine and false gospel
shall abound. False Christ including false prophets shall appear and seduce many, Nations and
kingdom shall rise up against each other, nation betray nation and kingdom betray kingdom.
Pestilence, natural disasters shall occur, believers shall be myrted, mankind betray one another,
and the hearts of many shall wax cold toward God, parents and friends. The good news is, Christ
comforts His disciple Matt 24:6b.
Again I thank you for your replies. As it is our destiny to grow in the Spirit of Christ and see with His eyes.
As the ways of God are beyond what I could fathom. Truly my faith in God and Jesus Christ being, that whatever the way of the Lord is, I know it is the right way and I am His forever. Even if I don't understand. Keeping root in the Word with a pure heart and staying close to the Lord. He shall direct us down the straight and narrow path. His Will shall be done.
Weather we believe "hell" to be a place of eternal torment like stated in Matthew 25:46. Or as you explain. It is a place we do not want to go or have anything to do with. Christ stating in Matthew 10:28.
As we who are in Christ here are Blessed to have been chosen by Him to be His.
In 1 Corinthians 16:22 stating those who "love not the Lord"(not with the Lord) to basically let him be set aside for the coming Judgement of the Lord.
A couple about saving a soul. As we can only plant or water, it is God who gives the growth. James 5:19-20, Jude 1:23.
Again thank you for your time and posts brother. It means a lot.
God Bless you Earl. Have a wonderful day!
It means that we enter into God's rest. It's speaking about salvation. In Chapter 4, the writer is going back to creation. He's saying if you surrender to Christ, you will be doing just what God did. You will cease from your own works, your own efforts, at your own salvation, you will cease from your own works, and you will enter into God's rest.
When a person receives Jesus Christ and has been born of His Spirit, that person enters into His rest.
I believe if there is a second death; there has to also be a first death.
Two resurrections; therefore, two deaths.
God is no respector of person; therefore, if the ones in second resurrection die (are judged) in the lake of fire; the ones in the first resurrection also die (are judged) in the lake of fire.
When Christ caused us to become one with him (CHRIST IN US) we we cast into (CHRIST) the lake of fire. To partake of the bread of life and the fountain of living water we also have to partake of the judgement of fire. As the bread and water gives us life, the fire cleanses and purifies us. We are being judged in the lake of fire (word of God) now; therefore, we want have our part in the lake of fire at the second resurrection.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is APPOINTED unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:
We died with Christ on the Cross (first death). We are being judged IN CHRIST now, BY THE WORD, BY FIRE. Those appointed the second death will be judged IN CHRIST ( Hebrews 10:31), BY THE WORD, BY FIRE.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once for the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear a SECOND TIME (NOW, to those in the first resurrection the second coming is NOW; we don't have to wait for the literal appearance of Christ) WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION.
For those in the second resurrection their judgement IN CHRIST is going to last awhile. Matthew says those that blaspheme the Holy Spirit want be saved in this age or the next age. This age so far has lasted 2000 years. We don't know how long the next age will last.
I believe those in the second resurrection will be raised back in bodies of flesh. The first resurrection, glorified bodies.
Revelation 20:7 ...Satan (flesh) will be loosed out of his prison (death and the grave),
1 Corinthians 15:40 celestial (glorified); terrestrial (flesh and blood)
Isaiah 30:33: "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." In this verse, the word "Tophet" is used & in the Greek (NT) is translated as Gehenna. This was a place near Jerusalem, in which the idolatrous Israelites used to offer up their children to Moloch. It may be put, for any place of torment; and particularly it is put for hell. "For the king": For the king of Assyria. "Fire": He alludes to the ancient custom, of burning sacrifices, and particularly of burning children to Moloch. "The breath": The immediate Hand of God, or His Word of anger. "Brimstone": alludes to that shower of fire and brimstone seen in Gen 19:24. Though this verse doesn't speak of an after death judgement, it reveals its counterpart in the NT.
You can also look at Isaiah 66:22-24. So I can't say why there was not more written about this subject in the OT & even among Jews there are different camps as to what to believe. For me, I think it sufficient that Jesus spoke very clearly about it & treated the everlasting suffering of the sinner as real & it was for this reason He came so that none should fall under the Hand of God ( Hebrews 10:31).
So here goes: Amos 3:7 read in context from the beginning of the chapter, tells us about Amos' rebuke against Israel: just as a lion doesn't roar when hunting for its prey; as a lion cub won't cry out if it is satisfied with food; as a bird can't be snared if there is no trap; as a (warning) trumpet will not sound if there is no danger to the people - so too with God - He will remain quiet ("He will do nothing") to His people, but will reveal His secrets (or, His intentions) to His prophets. So the message here is that when the prophet (of God) is commanded to speak by God, the people better sit up & listen hard, as the judgement of God is about to fall upon them.
If this is not what you are anticipating, then please write further. Thank you.
I very much appreciate all you have shared with me Earl.
May our Father pour His Blessings upon you my brother.
I very much appreciate your time. As your reply lead me to do some reading about the "resurrections". Us in Christ being part of the first resurrection having no part in the lake of fire or "second death". Revelation 20:6.
As our Lord Jesus Christ being raised from the dead is our confirmation that there shall be a resurrection of our actual physical bodies. Acts 17:24-31.
In that the second resurrection is for all the people quoted in Revelation 21:8 as you stated. Those who are not with Christ.
As you have stated before "all shall worship God" with Scripture of it. As it is detailed in the Book of Enoch this is also correct though it shall not save them. From the second death or the lake of fire.
62.5 And one half of them will look at the other, and they will be terrified, and will cast down their faces, and pain will take hold of them when they see that Son of a woman sitting on the throne of His Glory.
62.6 And the mighty kings, and all those who possess the earth, will praise and bless and exalt Him who rules everything that is hidden.
62.7 For from the beginning that Son of Man was hidden, and the Most High kept Him in the presence of His power, and revealed Him only to the chosen.
62.9 And all the mighty kings, and the exalted, and those who rule the dry ground, will fall down before Him, on their faces, and worship; and they will set their hopes on that Son of Man, and will entreat Him, and will petition for mercy from Him.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
Do you agree with these Scriptures?
As I also just want to be clear in what you believe the "second death" is. That this is where those souls/spirits will be separated from God, and us, for eternity? Or something else?
Thank you brother Earl.
If were are judged by Christ, sanctified by Christ, justified by Christ, cleansed by Christ, saved by Christ and our God is a consuming fire; therefore we have our part in the lake of fire or the fire of the Lord.
Being one with Christ we also become the fire of the Lord. Those in the second resurrection are going to be judge by fire (us). They will be resurrected in TORMENTS not having living water.
Zachariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto (new) Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of host, even upon them SHALL BE NO RAIN (living water).
Amos 8:11 Behold the days comes, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of (natural) bread, nor a thirst for (natural) water, but of hearing the WORDS OF GOD (living bread and living water)
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Richard..
The lake of fire is the same thing; that, in the Old Testament was called the Fire of the Lord. Natural eyes see this as literal fire; but is it?
Judges 6:20 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, take the flesh and unleavened cakes (represents us) and lay them upon this rock (represents Christ), and pour out the broth And he did so.
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and unleavened cakes (US), and there rose up fire from OUT OF THE ROCK (OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE), and consumed the flesh and unleavened cakes (US).
Zachariah 14:12 ......Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet....
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword (is the word of GOD, God is FIRE) of him upon the horse, which sword (WORD) proceeded out of his mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their (own) flesh.
To understand who the fowls are; we have to go to the parable of the sower of the seed.
Luke 8:5 A sower went out to so his seed; and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the FOWLS OF THE AIR devoured it.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are those that hear, then cometh the devil (fowls or the air)....
Luke 13:19 It (kingdom of heaven; Christ in you) is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air (devil) lodged therein.
John 15:5 I am the vine; ye are the branches (where the fowls lodge)...
Psalms 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the air have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out DEVILS by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God (CHRIST IN YOU) is come unto you.
There is two groups of people in God's Kingdom. The ones being called NOW; resurrected with Christ, will be the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
Revelation 5:10
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, SHALL BE GIVEN to the people of the saints (priest) of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and ALL DOMINIONS SHALL SERVE AND OBEY HIM (being made one with Christ they will obey us also).
Those raised at the second resurrection are the ones under the authority of God's priest and judges.
Revelation 2:26-27
Psalms 2:8-10
Revelation 3:9
Psalms 149:9
As we are the tabernacle of God where He dwells. Revelation 21:3. If I may ask one question. In Revelation 21:7-8. How God speaks of two "groups" of people. They that overcometh which are His. Then basically the wicked who have their part in the lake of fire. How do you perceive this?
As you stated Revelation not being "literal" (which shall disappear or pass away). I understand as those things being in the Spirit world and not of this physical world which is all vanity. The breadth of God. Job 34:14-15.
God Bless.
Thank you for looking up the word "torments."
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and TORMENTS, and those that were possessed with devils, and those that were lunatick, and those that had the palsy, AND HE HEALED THEM.
Luke 16:23 And in hell (grave) he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of TORMENT.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting, O grave (hell), were is thy victory?
If I am not mistaken; the same Greek word is used in both Luke 16:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:55. Therefore; Christ, at his resurrection, had victory over both; DEATH and the GRAVE (hades) and HELL (hades).
I BELIEVE that both verse mean the grave. Death and the grave are the wages of sin.
Since Judah was the only one that had five brothers and the Pharisees claimed to be of the house of Judah. Jesus was telling the Pharisees the first will be last and the last will be first. They WOULD NOT be part of the first resurrection but would have to wait until the second resurrection. They would be in TORMENT(not having drank from the living water); but after the second resurrection they would be healed as described in Matthew 4:24.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED.....
Nice. That site I usually use for paralleling verses from different versions of the Bible.
I agree with your perception on the "fear of God". When you are with the Lord and have a fear/reverence and pure love to Him. Being His precious child. Giving yourself to Him. There is nothing else to fear. Not even the devil himself.
God Bless.
God bless, Ron
No problem, please don't take any of my replies harshly. We are conversing peacefully. Saying I don't understand why you quoted those verses to what I stated is that the Holy Bible teaches of a place of eternal torment, or simply hell, and this is not my own teaching(or commandment of men). It is from the Word of God. Also the verses from Revelation. A place of eternal torment is from the Scriptures. Those two contexts of questions was just to show how one way would do no wrong, in the end, and the other way would lead to damnation. The reason I believe in a "hell". Because of the Holy Bible.
Here's other verses not in the NT about this "place". Just to show there are records of this before the NT. From the Book of Enoch.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
62.11 And the Angels of Punishment will take them so that they may repay them for the wrong that they did to His children and to His chosen ones.
63.10 Then they will say to them: "Our souls are sated with possessions gained through iniquity, but they do not prevent our going down into the flames of the torment of Sheol."
108.4 And there I saw something like a cloud, which could not be discerned, for because of its depth I was not able to look into it. And the flames of a fire I saw, burning brightly, and things like bright mountains revolved and shook from side to side.
108.5 And I asked one of the Holy Angels, who were with me, and I said to him: "What is this bright place? For there is no sky, but only the flames of a burning fire, and the sounds of crying, and weeping, and moaning, and severe pain."
108.6 And he said to me: "This place which you see; here will be thrown the spirits of the sinners, blasphemers, those who do evil, and of those who alter everything that the Lord has spoken through the mouths of the prophets. "
Amen
HEAVEN
Flesh sees everything as natural. Heaven to natural eyes is out there somewhere. In Revelation where new Jerusalem is described; flesh sees this as a literal city with literal mansions and literal streets and literal trees and literal rivers. Bodies that have been glorified don't need houses or streets or walls or gates. We are the houses (mansions) of God, we are the streets of gold, we are the foundations of the city, we are NEW JERUSALEM. Revelation describes the foundation as twelve precious and costly stones. We are those (living) ( 1 Peter 2:4) stones that make up the city of new Jerusalem. We are the gates made of one pearl ( Psalms 23:9). Revelation represents something that is not LITERAL (which shall disappears)
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, SIGNIFIETH the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are MADE, that those things WHICH CANNOT BE SHAKEN REMAIN.
This is why you don't see prophecies of heaven; WE ARE HEAVEN, WHERE GOD DWELLS.
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven (you) shall be SHAKEN.
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the WICKED might be SHAKEN out of it?
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
We are the stars of heaven (God's promise to Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven)
The powers (of Satan that rules by natural flesh) in heaven (US) shall be SHAKEN (flesh will be destroyed and replaced by Spirit)
Revelation is all about the removing of the LITERAL and replacing with the SPIRIT.
A new heaven a new earth.
What I was hoping to compare is the word for fear in 1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear) vs. Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell).
So, I found Bible Hub has a Greek interlinear comparison and found the following:
1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear): fear = Phobos/phobon (fear, terror, alarm; object or cause of fear; reverence, respect.
Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell): fear = phobthte (to frighten, be alarmed by. By analogy, to be in awe of; Revere.)
It appears to be the same root word, but just like in English its common to have different meanings for the same word, like the word 'conceive'. So, I believe at bare minimum fearing God means to be in upmost awe of and reverence. The context of being afraid of the one who can send you to hell seems to indicate a dose of real fear as well, maybe similar to a child being afraid when they risk doing something wrong and fear punishment by their parents, but I think this is different than fear/terror that perhaps is used in 1 John 4:18, that perfect love will get rid of that.
Interested if anyone else has another perspective on this.
No it's not. It's an outward expression of what Christ done on the Cross.
Do you have a scripture to support the possibility of another woman before Eve?
Eve was Made from Adams rib, Why go through the trouble if Adam could have just Married her.
And that is why we have all of Scripture to consider on this matter. If all we had was the OT, then I could well agree with you that death was our punishment & final resting place. But the NT, specifically Jesus' own Words while on Earth (the Gospels) & from Heaven (the Revelation), show us more of this place of punishment which wasn't revealed in its fullness in the OT.
And yet I thought further on this matter & the Gospel now given to us. Let's suppose, I, as an unbeliever was being witnessed to by you & you spoke to me about the life-changing, life-giving message of the Gospel through God's Son. You talked about the resurrection to eternal life & eternal bliss with God, forever enjoying God's Presence & Heaven's blessings. But I, as a hardened sinner, asked "what would happen if I enjoyed my sinful lifestyle as it gave me much pleasure & refused God's offer of salvation?" Of course, your response would be, "as an unrepentant sinner, rejecting God's offer of salvation, you would not be received into God's Kingdom & you wouldn't have eternal life". But I insist, "but what happens to me & those who refuse to accept Jesus as my Saviour?" Your answer would have to be, "you will remain in the grave, dead, & lost without any hope". And I would say, "well we all have to die & some of us (most of us) will just remain dead". Do you see what I'm saying Sacha? Death is not the punishment - we all have to experience it because we're sinners. The Gospel in its fullness is 'salvation through faith in Jesus Christ from both sin's penalty & eternal punishment'. They both go together.