John Chapter 19 Discussion

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    Chris, I question that God just lets us go about our business without interfering. You say God created us and left us alone? But the Bible says otherwise. In Daniel 11:29, the Angel tells Daniel that "at the Appointed Time" something will happen. That is a recurring theme throughout the Bible. Christ came at the Appointed Time. He will return at the Appointed Time. What does it mean to "appoint" something? Clearly, it is God who appoints. It is God who "Schedules". It is God who Plans and Determines the course of history. Isaiah 41:4, "Who has accomplished this? Who has determined the course of history from the beginning? I, the LORD, was there first, and I will be there to the end." (God's Word Translation). Isaiah 46:10, "I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come...'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'

    In Genesis 18:14, Abraham is asked, "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the Appointed Time I will return to you-in about a year-and Sarah will have a son." Was Sarah having a baby something God knew about the Future or something He deliberately Planned and caused to happen? Did God just want Sarah to have a baby, or was there a Purpose behind it? Did God Plan the birth of Isaac with a Purpose?

    We can say that God knows what is in the heart of man, but how does He know it? See John 2:25, "But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men. He did not need any testimony about man, for He knew what was in a man."

    Let me interject, that while I have an opinion based on what is available, given my experience and studies, this is what I have concluded. But the fact is, I don't know. I could be wrong. You might be right. But this is how I see it.

    Paul speaks of God's Pre-destination of our adoption, of being conformed to His image. Ephesians 1:11,'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'. God is not just involved, He determines.
  • Natalya

    The Jews are gathered in Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Passover. Jesus was crucified on Friday.

    There are 12 hours in a day.

    John 11:9 "Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

    If there is midday

    Acts 26:13 "At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me."

    and midnight,

    Exodus 11:4 "And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt."

    then we can say that the day starts at 6am, and the night - at 6pm. That shows that 3rd hour falls at 9am and 9th hour (when Jesus died on the cross) falls at 3pm. (New translation translate just like that).

    Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him."

    Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?"

    Bible mentions unusual darkness between 6th hour (12pm) until 9th hour (3pm). The darkness can't be seen if it's dark already...

    Matthew 27:45 "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."

    If there was Wednesday and Thursday, then I believe the Bible would have mentioned days instead of just hours.
  • Jesse

    I am one of those that believes Jesus was crucified on a Friday and rose Sunday. My reasoning for this comes from the account given in John Chapter 19, and then the first verse in John Chapter 20. We know from Chapter 19 that He died on a Friday sometime between 3pm and 6pm.

    John 19:31 gives us a clue as to the day Jesus was crucified. It had to be on a Friday because they had to be dead before the Sabbath day which would begin at 6pm on Friday and go to 6pm on Saturday. We see in Chapter 19 that they came to break the legs of all three because they were still alive. But when they came to Jesus to break His legs, He was already dead.

    It was against Jewish tradition for anyone to be hanging on a cross on the Sabbath (Saturday). The book of Deuteronomy gives us a list of codes. One of them is that cursed is everybody that hangs on a tree, especially on the Sabbath Day.

    John 20:1 begins by saying the first day of the week, but it literally says "the first of the Sabbath's," plural! In the scriptures, the Sabbath Day is singular, and the weekdays are plural. So you have the Sabbath Day, and then you have the Sabbath Days, which are used to denote the weekdays.

    This is the first day of the week. This is Sunday. The scripture tells us that this Sunday is the first Sunday after Passover, which means the Sabbath of Saturday, the normal Sabbath, has passed. And now we are into Sunday. To understand the Friday to Sunday time frame, you have to count Friday as being day 1, Saturday, day 2, and then Sunday would be the 3rd day, the day Jesus rose.

    Hope this helps!
  • Shawn on John 19
    Agreed, this is confusing. Also, if you ready Luke 23:56 they prepared the spices before Sabbath, but in Mark 16:1-2 they bought them after the Sabbath. How can they buy them after the Sabbath, but prepare them before the Sabbath?
  • Mary Jane Humes
    Shawn, on that week there was the "high sabbath" which was related to a Jewish festival and the regular weekly sabbath. So the week of Jesus' crucifixion had not one but two sabbaths.
  • Mary Jane Humes
    Hello Marie,

    Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    Tradition - not scripture - puts Him crucified on a Friday.

    Also know that He was crucified on a high sabbath - John 19:31 - so Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday during the day. Therefore He was in the grave Wednesday night (1st night), Thursday day (1st day), Thursday night (2nd night), Friday day (2nd day), Friday night (3rd night), Saturday (3rd day) and He from the grave after the third day. You are right that a new day begins a 6PM. We are not sure the exact time of the day that Jesus arose but it was after the third day and third night of being in the grave.
  • Natalya
    Mary Jane,

    The Scriptures - not tradition - puts Jesus crucified on Friday.

    Jesus represented a sacrificial lamb in the 1st Jewish Feast, Passover. The timing was as predicted in the Bible. Jesus knew that His time has come.

    Exodus 12:6 "And ye shall keep it [lamb] up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening."

    John 13:1 "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that His hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end."

    1 Cor. 5:7 "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
  • Vernon cartwright
    Jesus was making a comparison between Jonas being in the belly of the whale and Jesus being in the heart of the earth(grave) for three days. we must remember a day consist of 24 hours. The Jews reckon any part of a day as a day, not necessarily 24 hours. Jesus died on the preparation day (Friday 1st. day), in the grave all day Sabbath,(Sat.2nd. day). He rose early on the first day of the week(Sunday third day). John 19:42, John 20:1. There is a day between the preparation and the first day of the week, SABBATH. JUST A NOTE: We work eight hours a day, not 24. We consider those 8 hours as a day of work, not 24hours.
    GOD is talking in Matthew 12:39-40 read it please.Jonah 1:17 read it please?There is no way any one could claim he was in the Grave on Friday?72 hours is still 72 hours!GOD said Himself to everyone in the Belly of the Earth 3 days and 3 Nights.Okay GOD Can't lie ever.Or the Cross is worthless for us.Plus Mary came at 5-6 Am on Sunday to Grave and GOD is Risen.Okay great.It is proven already true.So go back 72 Hours?What day is it?6-9 at night.Then 72 hours to Sunday say 1 minute into it.Say 4:39 4:49 Am.Go back 72 hours?Okay what day is it?It sure isn't Friday.Remember GOD can't Lie! Matthew 12:39,40 GOD talking! Do you believe GOD or Man???Wednesday Night 6-9 Pm.Plus Remember there was Two Sabbaths that week of the Cross.Apparently forgot to look it up and Study the truth?The Truth will set us all Free! Who is Truth? GOD= Lord Jesus Christ!
  • Greg
    Mark Matthews,

    Page 2

    The Hebrew calendar used at the time of Jesus counted a full day from sunset to sunset, not midnight to midnight.

    The Hebrew 24 hour period of time is broken up into two 12 hour segments. The first segment is from 6 pm until 6 am. The second segment is from 6 am until 6 pm.

    6pm - 6am = 1st set of 12 hours- "third hour of the night" Acts 23:23 (9 pm)

    6am - 6pm = 2nd set of 12 hours- "third hour of the day" Acts 2:15 (9 am)

    The "third hour" of the day in Mark 15:25 when Christ was crucified is 9 am

    The "ninth hour" when He gave up the ghost is 3 pm.

    Look at Sixth hour, Ninth hour, eleventh hour, Matthew 20:5
  • Greg
    Mark Matthews, Day Christ Died.

    Right on! Just as Johah said; "Three days AND three nights" Jonah 1:17.

    Jesus died on what we call Wednesday just before sundown.

    Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown = 1 day (first night and day in the tomb)

    Thursday sundown to Friday sundown = 1 day (second night and day in the tomb)

    Friday sundown to Saturday sundown = 1 day (third night and day in the tomb)

    Mary came to the sepulchre at daybreak Sunday.

    Look at Matthew 12:40.

    Jesus rose at some time between Saturday sundown and Sunday morning.

    The "high day" of John 19:31 was the first day of the feast (Passover), and is considered a high holy Sabbath day.

    The first day of the Feast was a Thursday (15th day of Nisan- April 3/4). The 15th day of Nisan commenced at sunset on what we would still call the 14th.

    Jesus was crucified on the 14th, the "preparation day" (John 19:31), and by law the crucified bodies should not remain on the cross on a Sabbath day. Jesus was put in the tomb before sunset on Wednesday the 14th.

    The "first day of the week" (Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1-), the day of the Resurrection, was from our Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset.

    Jesus was to be the Lamb slain, and His crucifixion took place on the "preparation day" (John 19:14) when all lambs were slaughtered for the great Passover Feast the NEXT day.

    The Last Supper DID NOT take place on the day of Passover, look at Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:14, John 19:31-42.

    The "third day" of Matthew 16:21 is not the third day of the great Feast, but the third day of our Lord and Savior being in the tomb.
  • Ann Hering
    Joe...Joseph died and his brother Cleophas marries Mary according to Levirate marriage. Jesus, the first born, transfers His inheritance to John Mark to take care of His mother after His death. John Mark takes care of Mary when Cleophas dies. Acts 12:12 ...he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark ...
  • Joe
    Please read John 19 vs 26 - the disciple standing by whom he loved This disciple is John, the brother of James both of whom were of the 12 apostles. No where in the scriptures is John Mark referred to as the disciple whom Jesus loved.

    John Mark was a traveling companion of Paul and Barnabas; in fact it is generally thought that John Mark was related to Barnabas (as a cousin or nephew). Paul and Barnabas has a very big disagreement over John Mark causing them to part ways at Pamphylia.
  • Ann Hering
    John Mark was related to the high priest. (Acts 4:6) John Mark followed Jesus to the high priest's house and was allowed to go in with Jesus into the high priest's house. (John 18:15) John Mark was wealthy and had a house in Jerusalem where the disciples met (Acts 12:12) and where Jesus celebrated Passover and that is why John Mark sat at the head of the table next to Jesus. (John 13:23) John Mark is given the responsibility to take care of Mary. (John 19:27)

    Remember James and John, the sons of Zebedee, are always mentioned together.
  • Joe
    Ann - I respectfully hold a totally different view believing that John, the apostle, is the person referred to - not John Mark. Neither of us is likely to change the others view, but I feel sure we can agree on Jesus Christ as our Savior.

    All the references to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" are in the book of John. While the Gospel of John does not specifically identify its author, and "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is nowhere explicitly named in Scripture, early Christians universally recognized John, the apostle, as the author of the Gospel and "the disciple whom Jesus loved." This is consistent with internal evidence in the Gospel of John

    John and brother, James were called to be disciples of Christ while they were fishing with their father, Zebedee. They immediately left to become members of Jesus' original group of the twelve.

    James, John, and Peter seemed to be the most intimate of Jesus' apostles accompanying Jesus on special occasions. Matthew 17:1 says, ... and led them up a high mountain by themselves. Because of their favored relationship with Jesus, James and John sought special position in what they erroneously assumed to be Jesus earthly kingdom in Mark 10:37-38: "They replied, 'Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.'

    James eventually died as a martyr for Christ and John died a natural death after living in exile on the Isle of Patmos.

    One of the most reflective statements of the closeness between Jesus and John was in the last moments of Jesus' life when Jesus asked Jesus asked John to care for his mother after His death. John 19:26-27

    John, as an apostle of Jesus, not only wrote his eye-witness account of experiences with Christ which were recorded in his gospel, but also wrote the books of 1 John, 2 John, 3 John and the book of Revelation.
  • Ann Hering
    No where in the Word of God does it say that John was "exiled" to Patmos. Hebrews through The Revelation were written early, not later, to the 12 tribes scattered to prepare them for The Tribulation.

    3 John is written to Gaius, the same Gaius that Paul baptized and traveled with (1 Corinthians 1:14), and also mentions Demetrius, the same Demetrius, the silversmith that Paul dealt with in Ephesus. (Acts 19:24)

    Whoever wrote 3 John knew Gaius and Demetrius personally, he saw them face to face!

    Remember that John Mark traveled with Paul throughout Asia, and in 2 Tim 4:11 Paul tells Timothy to take Mark and bring him with thee for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

    It makes sense that John Mark would write The Revelation to the 7 churches of Asia that John Mark visited, not the Apostle John who never left Israel.

    You have to understand what was going on in those days.

    James, Cephas and John and the rest of the apostles knew their ministry was to Israel (circumcision), and Paul knew his ministry was to the Gentiles (uncircumcision) Galatians 2:9. They even shook hands on it!

    No where in the Word of God does it say that the 12 apostles left Israel.

    The "disciple" whom Jesus loved followed Jesus, was at the last Passover at the head of the table next to Jesus, went with Jesus into the high priest's house because he was akin, was at the cross, became the son of Mary, was at the tomb, had a home in Jerusalem where the apostles stayed, knew Peter intimately, knew Paul, Barnabus, Timothy, Gaius, Demetrius and many more in Asia.

    I think the right choice for the writer of John, 123 John and The Revelation has to be John Mark.

    We can' go by church "tradition" to figure these things out. The Word of God tells us who these people are.
  • Ann Hering
    Josh Ferguson...John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. There are ONLY 2 Mary s at the cross. Mary, Jesus mother the wife of Cleophas AND Mary Magdalene His mother s sister . Mary married Cleophas Alphaeus after Joseph died. Mary, called Magdalene, is Mary s sister, Jesus Aunt!
  • Joe
    I'm not understanding what you wrote. In verses 26,27 Jesus introduces his mother to John John takes her into his home. Are you saying that Jesus' mother was married? Please clarify.
  • Oliver williams
    When Jesus declared that it is finished, could this also be interpreted in the context that He had finished setting up the governmental structure upon which the New Testament Church will be built?
  • Bro Emeka Ihai
    Dear oliver williams-When the Lord Jesus said "it is finished", it meant He had perfectly fulfilled the Law of Moses and perfectly satisfyig the justice of God against Sin Romans 6:23 . Tgerefore when a person believes in Jesus Christ, they are not required to keep the law of Moses to be Justified before God because the Righteouness of Jesus is then transfered to that person. Godbless you
  • A disciple
    Jesus submitted to the God-ordained supreme authority of the priests and the elders of Israel; even though they themselves were wicked, and used their authority for their own criminal agenda. The Roman Governor however was also guilty in that he hearkened to their voices, whom HE KNEW were only raging against Jesus out of envy and hatred, and that Jesus was innocent! Still Jesus bore it patiently!
  • A disciple
    The priests and rulers of the people delivered Jesus to the heathen to be put to death, and are the ones with the greater sin. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son... and this is what MEN DO IN RESPONSE TO THAT LOVE! Jesus being condemned and crucified shows man's wickedness and man's sinful and perverted condition. The Father vindicated His Son by raising Him from dead.
  • Eutychus
    "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." Vs 11. I've been asked, "Who is this, the HE that hath the greater sin?" Is it God? The answer is found in the previous chapter, vs 35, "Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priest have delivered thee unto me"..
  • Josh Ferguson
    I noticed that in verse 25 that it mentions Mary wife of Cleophas. This is the only mention of her or Cleophas in the entire Bible. Who is she and who is Cleophas?
  • Noel
    Judas betrayed Jesus Peter did not. Judas had a divided heart.
    Peter did not .
  • A disciple
    Jeff (cont. 2); Besides, every true Christian wants everyone to come to repentance, and find the mercy and grace of salvation: we want everyone to know the Lord Jesus like we know Him, and be blessed. But we have to be realistic; just like God is realistic: at a certain point even God has to let men have what they really want; and when they DON'T WANT JESUS OR HIS SPIRIT; then they are damned!
  • A disciple
    Jeff (cont.); You start out nice in your last post, but what don't you agree with? Can't you see a difference in the kinds of sins that men do? Jesus even said, that "ALL MANNER OF SINS SHALL BE FORGIVEN TO THE SONS OF MEN; BUT THE BLASPHEMY OF THE SPIRIT SHALL NEVER BE FORGIVEN: NEITHER IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT!" My view is that Judas' sin was against the Spirit, and he was rejected!
  • A disciple
    Jeff; I wasn't offended, Brother! I'm glad if I could help. As there aren't many who like to talk about such dreadful things as falling into sin, and outright betrayal of Christ; and what are the differences in sins, that like the Apostle John says; some we pray for and some we do not; some are unto death and some are not! Considering the matter of Peter and Judas is very important for all of us.
  • Jeff Berry
    Disciple, I think I understand now. I did not intend to offend you or disrespect Peter. But I don't think we are going to agree on this one. For that reason this will be my last post on this particular subject. I believe that we all are guilty of crucifying our Lord because "all have sinned...". (You, me, Peter and Judas). I want everyone to know via repentance, they too can enjoy God's grace!
  • A disciple
    Jeff; Blessings to you too! I'm so grateful for this chance to talk about the things of the Lord. Whether we are discussing points of doctrine, or meanings of words; or if we run into disagreements or false teachings; it causes us to sharpen our understanding and skill in the Word of God; and thereby examining and confirming ourselves and each other, growing in grace and the knowledge of Jesus.

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