Sorry for the Delay in responding, I'm working in and out of town, often unable to get to a computer. I agree we all need to be able to have these much needed topics discussed in Love, humility and peace. That's why I enjoy these discussions with you. If you will allow me to get back to you when I settle in back home. I didn't want to appear to be ignoring you.
I would like to touch on Adam and Eve "NAKED" and not being ashamed.
S Spencer, brother thank you for your caring and your support to the brothers and sisters on this site. I understand this subject is off-limits to many and I thank you for your answer. I understand as Christian's we have different understandings of scriptures. I understand discernment, it is like Paul said in ( 1 Corinthians 3:2) the Holy Spirit does the same.
I went to church in my younger years and I had Christian parents, but I was not truly saved until my forties going on thirty years ago, it took over two years through demonic battles and things I did not believe were even real. I have full faith in my salvation in Jesus Christ and the baptizing of the Holy Spirit, if not I would not be here today.
I understand wanting to sit this one out some people's emotions override the love in Christ and many hold this undebatable, if we lived long ago, we would be in fear of death and even today your treated as unwanted, and cast out of many congregations, and I do cherish you considering me a brother.
On to the two Adams, now this is what I feel has been revealed through the Holy Spirit and my understanding of Scripture and I understand if we do not agree, but I will as best I can, tell you. When God formed the first Adam and made Eve out of his rib, they were in the garden naked and they were not ashamed ( Genesis 2:21-25). Their conscience was clean and white, not touched with sin, a dwelling place where God could communicate directly to Adam. After sin we see the voice of God walking, we know who that was.
If we look at all the scripture about our conscience it is where evil or good dwells. We are convicted by our conscience, our conscience records every thought, every intent, every imagination whether good or evil, it is the part of us that is recorded in the books that will be opened. This is why the law fell short it could cleanse the flesh but was uncapable of cleansing the conscience. ( Hebrews 9:8-14) ( Hebrews 10:1-12).
How we walk in this world is for our conscience ( 1 Peter 2:18-21), If we are treated badly, how we respond is recorded in our conscience regardless of how justified we fill to repay the wrongful treatment. I know we have all done this in the past but through the grace of God and the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus we can repent and He will cleanse our conscience.
I feel this is the dwelling place that Jesus repaired that the first Adam polluted with sin and through when we repent the Holy Spirit continues to wipe the spots to keep us clean. In John 14:1-4 that many have a different understanding of, what this speaks to me is, this is just before Jesus was going to be arrested and crucified. Later in the chapter Jesus told them He would ask the Father to send the Comforter to them in His name.
Jesus told them He was going to prepare a place for them, He said in His Fathers house are many mansions. The word mansion is monai meaning an abiding, an abode or dwelling place. Jesus was going to the cross to shed His blood and pay the penalty of sin that the first Adam put on mankind.
The union that the first Adam had with God before sin came in is now restored through the sacrifice and the blood of the Lamb of God His only begotten Son and Jesus' resurrection from the dead, now this union can again be with man through the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.
The first Adam broke the union with God the last Adam repaired the union that is why I use the name Immanuel/Emmanuel God with us, again.
After the first Adam sinned God communicate through angels, and the prophets until Jesus and God communicated directly through Him. When Jesus as the high priest sprinkled His own blood in the holy of holies not made with hands, God now communicates directly to us, the union has been repaired. We are now His family, sons and daughters.
I hope this is enough for you to understand what I meant if not please let me know.
As I mentioned I don't believe Adam would have been driven out of the Garden to keep him from eating of the tree of life because that life would have abided in him. And there would have been no need of a sacrifice or penalty of sin.
Hebrews 10:14-22. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
HAVING THEREFORE, BRETHERN, BOLDNESS TO ENTER INTO THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
LET US DRAW NEAR WITH A TRUE HEARTH IN ASSURENCE OF FAITH, HAVING OUR HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and our bodies washed with pure water.
The spirit now dwells in us only by the blood of Christ cleansing of the temple. " 1 Corinthians 3:16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Therefore we have boldness to enter into Gods presence and so would have Adam "if" Gods spirit dwelled in him. He would have never been moved out of the Garden because of 1 John 3:9.
Here is the difference between the 2 Adams- 1 Corinthians 15:45-50.
Verse 45- And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a
( quickening spirit.) "Life giving spirit." Whether Adam sinned or not he could never give life.
Verse 46- Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. We also inherit that which is natural not because Adam sinned, " Because he was a living soul. So is our 1st birth.
I would like to give my belief on whether a person can be saved if he does not hold the belief that Jesus is God.
I believe there is levels in areas in which the spirit grows a person. for example a person can be well versed and lack discernment, everyone is not gifted in all areas, But only God knows at this point. I believe the fruit in a believers life such as Love and humility ect. is going to be present in a believers life, and it will definitely be absent in a professing Christian. We've seen that often in debates.
Just because a "person" believe in the trinity that does not make him a Christian so to believe otherwise does not disqualify you, I don't believe Life given by the spirit is given by this doctrine. But I do hold this doctrine to be true and scriptural and though it is not required to "get' saved, once saved, in due time it will be revealed by the spirit.
I believe an important question is what means "are" we saved. A work "of God" through faith in Christ confirmed by the fruit in our life, or a work or belief system 'we' hold?
You don't hold to the trinity doctrine but atleast from my point of view you seem to be very fruitful so I would claim you as a brother. I elected to sit this one out but I do have a question.
You stated: " when the first Adam sinned "God could no longer dwell in man." Jesus, the last Adam, on the cross repaired what the first Adam did, God can again abode/dwell in man. In Jesus through the Holy Spirit God dwells in us, now God is with us. End quote.
I don't hold the view that God ever dwelled "IN" Man until Christ was resurrected. Are you saying God dwelled in the 1st Adam? 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I dont believe Adam would have been driven out of the Garden to keep him from eating of the tree of life because that life would have abided in him.
I just noticed your reply- thank you for your time. I will do my best to stand up for Jesus in my reply and with limited space will try to be direct. It looked like you went through and interpreted some of the 10 verse examples in your own way. It concludes with an unrelated question that resembles a red herring. You said that believing these 10 verses I shared is a 'creed' and a 'trinity doctrine'. No, it's just believing in God's Word. I believe you are the one believing a creed and an anti-trinity doctrine. I don't have any motive or emotional bias one way or the other, I just believe God's Word. It's a fact that Jesus was called God in the Bible and so I believe it, that's all there is to it. That doesn't threaten or upset me as it somehow seems to for others, so I believe you have a bias or an anti-trinity emotional position. I don't think it's a doctrinal argument, because it already says what it does in the Bible and doesn't need any external creative interpretation. For instance, I just listed the verses and called out a few key words like the "Word was God" but you wrote quite a bit in order to shift and justify your interpretation from a literal one to a creative one.
It seems you were once told that catholics came up with the trinity? That's untrue. It's in the Bible, so that's where it came from. Whomever made that claim may have been motivated to associate the Bible verse interpretation with a 'bad guy' in order to fortify such a anti-God-trinity position. As an example, if I said that Hitler also was a denier of Jesus' divinity and if I used that as an argument against others, I believe it would be a dirty emotional tactic. Even if it's true, it's irrelevant what someone else believes. It only matters what God says and God said in John 1:1 that the Word is God and in verse 18 it says Jesus was the Word. Therefore Jesus is God. This doesn't threaten me and I fully embrace and accept God's Word as truth. Since it says it clearly in the Bible that Jesus is God, I believe Jesus is God. Why are some uncomfortable with this truth?
Once again, brother Ronald, your comments are appreciated & vibrates well in both my mind & spirit.
You wrote of "In the beginning". Of course, this strongly suggests that there was a beginning, or commencement to this Word, yet we know & accept that God Himself had no beginning (in time). From eternity to eternity He will ever be God. If then God is eternal & His Word & Spirit must always co-exist within Him & with Him, we can then only question the meaning of "In the beginning". So, it's always been natural to interpret that to mean 'From eternity' because of God's Nature, but as you suggest, it's beyond us, how else could we interpret this phrase & still make it fit Who God is?
As much as I understand that you don't deny Christ's divinity, there is still the belief that divinity came upon Him at some other point: whether in His Birth, Life or ministry. So, even though we cannot be clear to "In the beginning", we can be clear that God's Word, immaterial, yet in God's Essence, emanated from Him, God choosing that Word to be made flesh. He could have chosen His Spirit to take on humanity instead, but that thought would lead us nowhere. Whereas, the Scriptures that have been cited in other posts, give us clear evidence that Jesus understood His Presence with God, having been graced with God's Glory pre-creation ( John 17:5). And in Colossians 1:16 which you quoted: He was not only in the beginning of creation, but as the verse tells us, He was the Creator (I can only understand this as the Creator God & His Word were joint Authors of all creation).
All these show us Christ's Divinity before His coming in Humanity. That He was the Son of God by virtue of His Birth & not by His pre-existence. And indeed, the demons called Him the Son of God, because that's Who He was & to Whom they were addressing. The point is, does a reference to Jesus' Sonship negate His Deity & intrinsic connection to the Father in eternity? Thank you again & may His blessings be yours always.
Brother Chris, I thank you for your reply from the bottom of my heart and the love you show in it. I guess we will have questions until we die, and I feel our search for answers, if we humble ourselves in love as knowing nothing, in the body of Christ our walk will only be in the Spirit of truth. It's like when we were a child and we asked Daddy, Why.
Your first question; why is His only begotten Son the only one that could die for us? We think of this question mostly of me and not us, why did God send His only begotten Son to die for, rotten old me? Who am I? The unfulfilling answer is God loves us ( John 3:16) ( Romans 5:6-10.) Throughout the New Testament, God is referred to as Father, God wanted a family ( Ephesians 1:4-5). That started on day six and I feel things happened then that were not written, but that is another discussion.
The only one worthy of being the head of this family was His Son and only a holy man capable of sinning but strong enough not to sin was Jesus His only begotten Son. What is amazing Jesus was willing to do it. ( John 10:17-18). We see in ( 1 Corinthians 11:3) the structure of this family that we have messed up.
I feel there is more that is not in scripture that we can only speculate which gets us out of line. Satan is one of the reasons it could have only been the only begotten Son, and very little about Satan is in scripture.
I know you're probably looking for a more in-depth answer than this but for me, we would need more scripture covering after the seventh day, what happened when the angels left their first estate, and the involvement of Satan before the Garden of Eden. Sorry I know that is a big What!!!!
The second question, first I do not believe anyone can deny the divinity of Jesus or His pre-existence of everything. ( Colossians 1:16) He was the beginning of creation and through Him, everything that is was created. The Son of God was with, from, and was the word of God.
I feel our mind with the preconceived ideas over the years, plugs our ears and blinds our eyes. It is like the word beginning when we see or hear the word beginning eternity pops in our head. It is like ( John 1:1-2). God has no beginning so, what is this beginning in John 1?
Scripture tells us God is from everlasting to everlasting, it tells us Jesus is the only begotten Son, the beginning of creation, but scripture does not tell us when or how he was begotten other than it was before creation and when He came in the flesh. Jesus is of God, and from God, the Son of God even the demons knew who He was and did not call Him God, ( Matthew 8:28) ( Mark 5:7) ( Luke 8:28).
In John 1, John is writing this after Jesus had ascended, in the beginning, is when the Messiah/Jesus first came, the beginning of His ministry, He was the word of God, the Word was God because it was from God, in Him was life and the light of men. John the Baptist was sent to be a witness of this light who was Jesus, and this light cometh to all in the world. It "shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not". As then the same today.
Jesus now was in the world that He made and they did not know him, He went to his own/Israel and they rejected Him. But as many that received Him became sons of God born again into the kingdom of God not of the will of the flesh but of the Father.
The word of God was made flesh, in scripture everything Jesus said or did was told to Him by God, ( John 5:30) Jesus was the word of God. In ( 1John 1:1-7) John's opening is similar to his opening in John 1, he is confirming John 1.
The understanding of God & His Son Jesus meant much more than Jesus appearing at birth as the Son of God - it meant that Jesus proceeded out from God ( John 16:27,28).
You would not be denying the Son of God by referring to Jesus as God (always within the Deity from whence He came at the first). Jesus, as God's Word, was always within the Godhead. The fact that He became human can't deny Him His Divinity (or else, He wouldn't be worshipped in Heaven: Revelation 5:1-14; & holding the descriptions of God: Revelation 1:8,11,17,18). If He weren't part of the Godhead, how could He receive worship from the heavenly hosts?
"Can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?" you ask. I believe he can be. One doesn't have to know & understand all doctrines or have read the Bible through, to attain salvation, except to come in contrition, an earnest yearning for salvation, & that through faith in the Cross. But after knowing the Word, & rejection of the Deity of Christ, I have no opinion on what is God's matter alone.
Two questions from me, which I have asked several times before on KJBO, without answer:
1. Why did God have to send His only begotten to die for us - couldn't a special Heaven-prepared lamb not do the job? Leaving aside the prophecy speaking of a Man coming in David's lineage, since prophecy is only God's Word sent out after God's Determination first.
2. If John 1:1-14 speaks of God's Word being with Him & of Him, & that Word was given a human body & dwelt among His people, what other meaning can be given to these words, other than a clear belief of Christ's Deity? Why do those who reject Jesus' pre-existence fail to give an exposition of these verses? Every blessing.
Brother Ronald. Thank you once again for your comments. I agree, whether Ignatius, Polycarp or any other succeeding them, even the Apostle Peter himself, can all be found in error in some doctrine or teaching ( Galatians 2:11-14). Though, my point was in their belief in the Deity of Christ.
To your references on the Trinity 'fallacy': Revelation 21:22. God is Spirit - the Spirit of God is within the Godhead - the Lamb (post resurrection) is in His glorified State, as the Incarnate Word of God made flesh & now in Glory. Jesus is no longer the Word of God within God's Being, but His Word made flesh, risen & reigning at the Father's right Hand.
1 John 2:22-24. You seem to be well studied brother. Then you would know that 1st John was written explicitly to confront the errors of Gnosticism (& other false teaching) that were running rampant in the Church. The discussion begins from verse 18, concerning the many 'anti-christs' in the Church, deceiving the believers by their lies & corruption of accepted apostolic teaching. The prevailing Docetic (an off-shoot of Gnosticsm) heresy was that "the incarnation was incredible because Deity cannot unite itself with anything material, as a body of flesh".
Then in the reference you gave, the question from John is, "who is a liar?" The liar is that one who has come to you denying the incarnation, saying 'it's impossible for a Holy God, Who is Spirit, to unite with sinful flesh by having a Son: "but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son". This would have reference not only to the Jews that deny Jesus as their Messiah, but certainly to those who went by the name of 'Christian'; they who denied either His proper Deity, or real Humanity, as Ebion and Cerinthus, who were denying Him to be the God-man, the Mediator, & the Messiah. (cont'd).
Hi Ronald What I see in scripture is God and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are one in purpose but not entity, gospel of John 1:18 but again I know people who believe one in the same and one in purpose.
Thank you so much for your time in answering me. It has been a while, but what I do remember, Ignatius was implemental in setting up the appointment of bishops and their authority, I feel this is what Jesus was referring to in Revelation about Nicolaitanes. What I remember of Polycarp, he was against the teaching of the immortal soul and idol worship.
I understand the main debate was Jesus being created and not divine but they went too far. When Christianity went out some of the word meanings were influenced by Greek philosophy like the meaning of death it came from Plato, it was the separation of the soul and the body, and Aristotle wrote: "All things are true, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods;
The trinity doctrine says the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and co-equal, scripture does not support that to me. If so, why are not all three the temple in ( Revelation 21:22)? When I was studying one day I came to this verse and it stood out like a magnifying glass was in front of it. ( 1 John 2:22-24)
I'm sure you have a different understanding, but I feel if I say Jesus is God I am denying the Son, it is the Son and the Father, and when we make them one, we deny the Son and the Father. I know this is a subject that many will not even discuss and it is considered heresy not to believe in this doctrine, and I thank you for your reply.
I assure you I am not of Gnosticism as some of the posts on here. Your kidney analogy was pretty good, your kidney is part of you, it will always be your kidney, but you gave it to save someone. God gave a part of Him, not created by Him, but out of Him to save you and me. Your kidney is part of you, it is from you, the same DNA, but after you take it out of you can you say it is you?
I will ask you a question I have asked before, can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?
Chris, thank u for this !Yes, Mary was a vehicle for God. Vehicle is not proper to say, but understanding how His will was done . The spirit is real, and moves and came upon her! The spirit that was born in the flesh of Christ, was the same spirit that was formed within Her. I think the scripture says that he was without form ( the earth was without form and void)This is the same spirit that holds all things together. The same way he moved within her is the same way He moves upon those that believe in Him. Thank u for your insight
Dear Ronald , if there's any love in me it comes from God . As a young person (under 25 ) I was an emotional desert . I didn't know how to give or receive love at all . If someone was nice to me I was embarrassed because I didn't know how to respond . It was only when I started to read the Bible that I recognised the emptyness inside me . I actually asked God , in prayer , to teach me how to feel and give love . I'm a work in progress ! Much love in Christ .
I don't know what you think of the early Church fathers, but at least two, who were contemporaries to the Apostle John: Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch (35-107 AD) stated, "For OUR GOD, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan" & in another writing, "Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life".
Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna (69-155 AD): "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our LORD AND GOD Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead". And of course, there were many more after them that attested to the Divinity of Christ on Earth.
I realize that these men, though historical, have their writings & letters considered extra-biblical, which will justifiably raise eyebrows & concerns. Yet, it does point out two things: that the Deity of Christ was still believed not only through the apostolic age but into the post-apostolic age and it was not at the Nicene Council in 325 AD, which pushed for the acceptance of Trinitarian belief, which is erroneously fed to us these days. The denial of Christ's divinity stems from Gnostic thought & propagation, & sadly many Christians fall for it. Apologies for the length of this response - I have tried to deal with your points briefly, brother.
Yes, I believe Jesus was capable of committing sin as he was flesh & Satan took advantage of the weakness & susceptibility of it. But for Him to sin, would mean the receiving of a sin nature, become a failure as Adam became, & be rejected as the only acceptable Sacrifice for sins. We would never be able to attain salvation in any other way & only God could know what His Son's condition & position would be henceforth (I couldn't even begin to contemplate such a thought). But for His holiness, His resolve, & His great love for us, He thwarted Satan's attempts "on all points" of temptation pertaining to life.
To think of Jesus just as "the Divine Son of God & Name above all names without saying He is God", I believe is to seriously undermine the Nature of God in its completeness. Just because a kidney can be removed from me & transplanted to another, doesn't mean that stops being my kidney (just a weak analogy). Fortunately, I can survive on one kidney, but it will always remain my kidney that I gave to another because I was born with it & was given from my body. If Jesus (the Word) came out from God's Being, He always remains God, even as God's Spirit always remains God. What causes the confusion, is our incapability of understanding that 'three can be one' with any 'part' able to be wherever, doing whatever God prescribes for 'it'.
Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord & my God" ( John 20:28); as well as Philippians 2:6; Colossians 2:9,10; John 10:30,33; Isaiah 7:14 cf Matthew 1:23 are some Scriptures that attest to Jesus' Divinity.
Hello Ronald. Thank you brother for your thoughtful comments & I certainly respect the spirit that you have given them in. In considering both the individual aspects of your comments as well as its overall thrust, I would say that at the first, we need to determine Jesus' position pre-incarnate & post-incarnate. On this determination, hang all our beliefs & discussions of the Godhead (i.e. the Father, the Word & the Holy Spirit).
Re: Jesus' flesh. As I read the Word, I believe that Jesus was born of God entirely pure, i.e. with flesh untarnished with sin. It could be said that his flesh was as that of Adam, pre-fall. However, Adam sinned & the sin nature & propensity to sin passed on all of us, but Jesus refused to sin, that "he was on all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" ( Hebrews 4:15b) - still in the flesh but the sin nature couldn't take hold. Some would say that Jesus was the product of the fusing of the seed of God & the seed of Mary. I would tend to disagree; if anything directly human was involved in human production, then the sin nature has to be passed on. I believe that what was placed in Mary was entirely of God & Mary was the vehicle for bringing forth a child, in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning Him.
So, when I say 'Godhead', in lieu of 'Trinity', it is to firstly avoid the naysayers, & secondly to emphasize that the Godhead cannot be complete without the Word & the Spirit being vitally connected & a part of Almighty God's Being. If the Word proceeded out from God, as even He sends forth His Spirit, then the Word made flesh must be the exact personification of God, sans the humanity & the laying aside of His Glory that "He had with (God) before the world was" ( John 17:5).
Brother adam, may christ in us grace us with his wisdom and his knowledge.
the spirit is the god. everything after this is by inheritance.
christ was the firstborn. the firstborn received the inheritance of the father. his father is the god (source of life, truth, etc. christ became a god through inheritance.
christ came to give us this same inheritance, we also will become a god through inheritance.
I would love to discuss this lovingly, I am born again and I do my best to walk in the Spirit and I pray when I study to be led by the Holy Spirit. I was in a church in my early life but not saved until my forties. I have been to many different denominations since, and from what I have seen, this creed is placed above salvation that is only through Jesus Christ and placed as the foundation of Christianity.
Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means "God with us". Another understanding, when the first Adam sinned God could no longer dwell in man. Jesus, the last Adam, on the cross repaired what the first Adam did, God can again abode/dwell in man. In Jesus through the Holy Spirit God dwells in us, now God is with us.
John 10:30 answer, John.17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 1:1 The word was God (in the beginning) God has no beginning or end so, what beginning? Is this beginning of everything or is it a prelude to Jesus's ministry that John repeats in 1 John 1 the declaring the Messiah has come in the world? I do not believe Jesus was created. Is there anyone living that can say how Jesus was begotten? Does not a word have to be spoken before it is a word?
Philippians 2:5 answers Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. If we read a little further we see why ( Philippians 2:8-9)
I can go on but my question is; why has this creed, the trinity doctrine, developed four hundred years after Jesus by the Roman Catholic Church that is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, has become more important than the gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Do you believe if someone does not accept the trinity doctrine they are not saved and are not a Christian?
Hello, not sure if I'm understanding your view correctly, but it sounds like maybe you don't believe Jesus is God. I do understand people's different viewpoints around this, because God the Father is just referred to as God in many cases. For example, Son of God in the wording suggests that He's not God, but the Son. However, that isn't the whole picture- as there's so much Bible verses showing His divinity and it would be hard for anyone to deny that Jesus himself was called God and scripture says He was God in John 1:1.
1. Isaiah 7:14 - People called Jesus Immanuel which means "God with us"
2. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
3. John 8:19 "if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
4. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
"Word WAS God."
5. Philippians 2:5 - 2:8 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
"form of God"
"equal with God"
6. John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus made everything.
7. John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
8. John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
9. 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
10. Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image"
"Let us make" - plural.
What I gather from this is they are different but the same. We will probably never 100% comprehend this until after this life. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, but it says they made everything together, are in each other, have similar form, they both have great power to do miracles, and both are referred to as God in the Bible.
If I may ask a question, I respect your knowledge of scripture. Jesus is the Son of God the beginning of creation, He is the first and the last, and His name is above all other names that are named and through Him, all was created. After His resurrection, God placed Him above all, until He puts every enemy under His feet, and we know that is death, ( 1 Corinthians 15:25-28).
We do see in ( Romans 8:3) He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, but there was not any sin in Him as was the first Adam when God formed him. The way many use the word Godhead, which is the same Greek words for divine, divinity, and divine being, gives the impression that Jesus could not sin. If Jesus was unable to sin what did He defeat? ( Hebrews 2:14-19)
The covenant had to be fulfilled in the flesh that was capable of sinning to be able to break the curse of sin. Jesus coming and what He suffered for us was the will of the Father. We even see in ( Matthew 26:39-44) and ( Luke 22:41-44) being in agony asking the Father if there is another way, but not the Sons' will but the Fathers.
Can't we know and accept the divinity of Jesus, as the Son of God, His name above all names, Him (Jesus) who now holds the authority overall, by God placing Him above all, Jesus is Almighty, ( Revelation 1:8), without saying He is God, which is called a mystery and confuses many? What I see and hear from scripture, there is God the Father, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, all are one in the will of the Father, and we as the servants of Christ, and through Jesus, we do the will of the Father and are one with the Father. Am I wrong?
I do not want to cause strife, this is just a seriously honest question asked out of love.
Brother Earl. You wrote: "Christ was the first man CREATED, and Christ WAS GIVEN a BODY. That body can holds the PRESENCE of God." I would question that statement with the following verses & my remarks:
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (i.e. Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Jesus is the "firstborn of every creature" both in rank & birth. The matter of His Birth concerns us here. The word for 'firstborn' in Greek is 'prototokos' = first to give birth to. Unlike, some translators, applying the word 'protokitises' = first created. Jesus was never a created Being - He proceeded from the Father & made flesh for mankind's benefit. Both in His part in the Godhead & in His humanity, He was the "firstborn", for it was only through Him that all things in the heavens & Earth were created & are held together. To use the word 'created' for Jesus' Birth is a misnomer & fallacy, because He was never a created Being.
Then we come to: "that body can hold the PRESENCE of God". Jesus may have laid aside His Glory, even given lower rank than that of angels, for the "suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:7; Philippians 2:7,8), but He never lost His Divinity & union to the Father. It is a misconception that in His Humanity, Jesus ceased to be Divine. If that were the case, we have a Saviour that became unqualified to pay such a ransom, & you suggest, took on a Body of sinful flesh (i.e. making Him a sinner). Rather, He took on the flesh (body) of man (as was Adam's, pre-fall), bearing upon His Body (carrying) our sins, that He might continue to be Holy & spotless, being the accepted Redeemer for our sins. Sin never entered Him & He never lost His Divinity even while on Earth.
Sorry for the Delay in responding, I'm working in and out of town, often unable to get to a computer. I agree we all need to be able to have these much needed topics discussed in Love, humility and peace. That's why I enjoy these discussions with you. If you will allow me to get back to you when I settle in back home. I didn't want to appear to be ignoring you.
I would like to touch on Adam and Eve "NAKED" and not being ashamed.
thanks and
God bless you
S Spencer, brother thank you for your caring and your support to the brothers and sisters on this site. I understand this subject is off-limits to many and I thank you for your answer. I understand as Christian's we have different understandings of scriptures. I understand discernment, it is like Paul said in ( 1 Corinthians 3:2) the Holy Spirit does the same.
I went to church in my younger years and I had Christian parents, but I was not truly saved until my forties going on thirty years ago, it took over two years through demonic battles and things I did not believe were even real. I have full faith in my salvation in Jesus Christ and the baptizing of the Holy Spirit, if not I would not be here today.
I understand wanting to sit this one out some people's emotions override the love in Christ and many hold this undebatable, if we lived long ago, we would be in fear of death and even today your treated as unwanted, and cast out of many congregations, and I do cherish you considering me a brother.
On to the two Adams, now this is what I feel has been revealed through the Holy Spirit and my understanding of Scripture and I understand if we do not agree, but I will as best I can, tell you. When God formed the first Adam and made Eve out of his rib, they were in the garden naked and they were not ashamed ( Genesis 2:21-25). Their conscience was clean and white, not touched with sin, a dwelling place where God could communicate directly to Adam. After sin we see the voice of God walking, we know who that was.
If we look at all the scripture about our conscience it is where evil or good dwells. We are convicted by our conscience, our conscience records every thought, every intent, every imagination whether good or evil, it is the part of us that is recorded in the books that will be opened. This is why the law fell short it could cleanse the flesh but was uncapable of cleansing the conscience. ( Hebrews 9:8-14) ( Hebrews 10:1-12).
Continued
How we walk in this world is for our conscience ( 1 Peter 2:18-21), If we are treated badly, how we respond is recorded in our conscience regardless of how justified we fill to repay the wrongful treatment. I know we have all done this in the past but through the grace of God and the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus we can repent and He will cleanse our conscience.
I feel this is the dwelling place that Jesus repaired that the first Adam polluted with sin and through when we repent the Holy Spirit continues to wipe the spots to keep us clean. In John 14:1-4 that many have a different understanding of, what this speaks to me is, this is just before Jesus was going to be arrested and crucified. Later in the chapter Jesus told them He would ask the Father to send the Comforter to them in His name.
Jesus told them He was going to prepare a place for them, He said in His Fathers house are many mansions. The word mansion is monai meaning an abiding, an abode or dwelling place. Jesus was going to the cross to shed His blood and pay the penalty of sin that the first Adam put on mankind.
The union that the first Adam had with God before sin came in is now restored through the sacrifice and the blood of the Lamb of God His only begotten Son and Jesus' resurrection from the dead, now this union can again be with man through the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.
The first Adam broke the union with God the last Adam repaired the union that is why I use the name Immanuel/Emmanuel God with us, again.
After the first Adam sinned God communicate through angels, and the prophets until Jesus and God communicated directly through Him. When Jesus as the high priest sprinkled His own blood in the holy of holies not made with hands, God now communicates directly to us, the union has been repaired. We are now His family, sons and daughters.
I hope this is enough for you to understand what I meant if not please let me know.
In the love of Jesus
RLW
Part 2.
As I mentioned I don't believe Adam would have been driven out of the Garden to keep him from eating of the tree of life because that life would have abided in him. And there would have been no need of a sacrifice or penalty of sin.
Hebrews 10:14-22. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
HAVING THEREFORE, BRETHERN, BOLDNESS TO ENTER INTO THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
LET US DRAW NEAR WITH A TRUE HEARTH IN ASSURENCE OF FAITH, HAVING OUR HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and our bodies washed with pure water.
The spirit now dwells in us only by the blood of Christ cleansing of the temple. " 1 Corinthians 3:16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Therefore we have boldness to enter into Gods presence and so would have Adam "if" Gods spirit dwelled in him. He would have never been moved out of the Garden because of 1 John 3:9.
Here is the difference between the 2 Adams- 1 Corinthians 15:45-50.
Verse 45- And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a
( quickening spirit.) "Life giving spirit." Whether Adam sinned or not he could never give life.
Verse 46- Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. We also inherit that which is natural not because Adam sinned, " Because he was a living soul. So is our 1st birth.
GBU.
Part 1.
I would like to give my belief on whether a person can be saved if he does not hold the belief that Jesus is God.
I believe there is levels in areas in which the spirit grows a person. for example a person can be well versed and lack discernment, everyone is not gifted in all areas, But only God knows at this point. I believe the fruit in a believers life such as Love and humility ect. is going to be present in a believers life, and it will definitely be absent in a professing Christian. We've seen that often in debates.
Just because a "person" believe in the trinity that does not make him a Christian so to believe otherwise does not disqualify you, I don't believe Life given by the spirit is given by this doctrine. But I do hold this doctrine to be true and scriptural and though it is not required to "get' saved, once saved, in due time it will be revealed by the spirit.
I believe an important question is what means "are" we saved. A work "of God" through faith in Christ confirmed by the fruit in our life, or a work or belief system 'we' hold?
You don't hold to the trinity doctrine but atleast from my point of view you seem to be very fruitful so I would claim you as a brother. I elected to sit this one out but I do have a question.
You stated: " when the first Adam sinned "God could no longer dwell in man." Jesus, the last Adam, on the cross repaired what the first Adam did, God can again abode/dwell in man. In Jesus through the Holy Spirit God dwells in us, now God is with us. End quote.
I don't hold the view that God ever dwelled "IN" Man until Christ was resurrected. Are you saying God dwelled in the 1st Adam? 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I dont believe Adam would have been driven out of the Garden to keep him from eating of the tree of life because that life would have abided in him.
Part 2 coming.
I just noticed your reply- thank you for your time. I will do my best to stand up for Jesus in my reply and with limited space will try to be direct. It looked like you went through and interpreted some of the 10 verse examples in your own way. It concludes with an unrelated question that resembles a red herring. You said that believing these 10 verses I shared is a 'creed' and a 'trinity doctrine'. No, it's just believing in God's Word. I believe you are the one believing a creed and an anti-trinity doctrine. I don't have any motive or emotional bias one way or the other, I just believe God's Word. It's a fact that Jesus was called God in the Bible and so I believe it, that's all there is to it. That doesn't threaten or upset me as it somehow seems to for others, so I believe you have a bias or an anti-trinity emotional position. I don't think it's a doctrinal argument, because it already says what it does in the Bible and doesn't need any external creative interpretation. For instance, I just listed the verses and called out a few key words like the "Word was God" but you wrote quite a bit in order to shift and justify your interpretation from a literal one to a creative one.
It seems you were once told that catholics came up with the trinity? That's untrue. It's in the Bible, so that's where it came from. Whomever made that claim may have been motivated to associate the Bible verse interpretation with a 'bad guy' in order to fortify such a anti-God-trinity position. As an example, if I said that Hitler also was a denier of Jesus' divinity and if I used that as an argument against others, I believe it would be a dirty emotional tactic. Even if it's true, it's irrelevant what someone else believes. It only matters what God says and God said in John 1:1 that the Word is God and in verse 18 it says Jesus was the Word. Therefore Jesus is God. This doesn't threaten me and I fully embrace and accept God's Word as truth. Since it says it clearly in the Bible that Jesus is God, I believe Jesus is God. Why are some uncomfortable with this truth?
You wrote of "In the beginning". Of course, this strongly suggests that there was a beginning, or commencement to this Word, yet we know & accept that God Himself had no beginning (in time). From eternity to eternity He will ever be God. If then God is eternal & His Word & Spirit must always co-exist within Him & with Him, we can then only question the meaning of "In the beginning". So, it's always been natural to interpret that to mean 'From eternity' because of God's Nature, but as you suggest, it's beyond us, how else could we interpret this phrase & still make it fit Who God is?
As much as I understand that you don't deny Christ's divinity, there is still the belief that divinity came upon Him at some other point: whether in His Birth, Life or ministry. So, even though we cannot be clear to "In the beginning", we can be clear that God's Word, immaterial, yet in God's Essence, emanated from Him, God choosing that Word to be made flesh. He could have chosen His Spirit to take on humanity instead, but that thought would lead us nowhere. Whereas, the Scriptures that have been cited in other posts, give us clear evidence that Jesus understood His Presence with God, having been graced with God's Glory pre-creation ( John 17:5). And in Colossians 1:16 which you quoted: He was not only in the beginning of creation, but as the verse tells us, He was the Creator (I can only understand this as the Creator God & His Word were joint Authors of all creation).
All these show us Christ's Divinity before His coming in Humanity. That He was the Son of God by virtue of His Birth & not by His pre-existence. And indeed, the demons called Him the Son of God, because that's Who He was & to Whom they were addressing. The point is, does a reference to Jesus' Sonship negate His Deity & intrinsic connection to the Father in eternity? Thank you again & may His blessings be yours always.
May we always walk and be led by the Holy Spirit of truth and in the light that we will not stumble and if we do, we can see to get up.
God bless,
RLW
Brother Chris, I thank you for your reply from the bottom of my heart and the love you show in it. I guess we will have questions until we die, and I feel our search for answers, if we humble ourselves in love as knowing nothing, in the body of Christ our walk will only be in the Spirit of truth. It's like when we were a child and we asked Daddy, Why.
Your first question; why is His only begotten Son the only one that could die for us? We think of this question mostly of me and not us, why did God send His only begotten Son to die for, rotten old me? Who am I? The unfulfilling answer is God loves us ( John 3:16) ( Romans 5:6-10.) Throughout the New Testament, God is referred to as Father, God wanted a family ( Ephesians 1:4-5). That started on day six and I feel things happened then that were not written, but that is another discussion.
The only one worthy of being the head of this family was His Son and only a holy man capable of sinning but strong enough not to sin was Jesus His only begotten Son. What is amazing Jesus was willing to do it. ( John 10:17-18). We see in ( 1 Corinthians 11:3) the structure of this family that we have messed up.
I feel there is more that is not in scripture that we can only speculate which gets us out of line. Satan is one of the reasons it could have only been the only begotten Son, and very little about Satan is in scripture.
I know you're probably looking for a more in-depth answer than this but for me, we would need more scripture covering after the seventh day, what happened when the angels left their first estate, and the involvement of Satan before the Garden of Eden. Sorry I know that is a big What!!!!
continued
Brother Chris,
The second question, first I do not believe anyone can deny the divinity of Jesus or His pre-existence of everything. ( Colossians 1:16) He was the beginning of creation and through Him, everything that is was created. The Son of God was with, from, and was the word of God.
I feel our mind with the preconceived ideas over the years, plugs our ears and blinds our eyes. It is like the word beginning when we see or hear the word beginning eternity pops in our head. It is like ( John 1:1-2). God has no beginning so, what is this beginning in John 1?
Scripture tells us God is from everlasting to everlasting, it tells us Jesus is the only begotten Son, the beginning of creation, but scripture does not tell us when or how he was begotten other than it was before creation and when He came in the flesh. Jesus is of God, and from God, the Son of God even the demons knew who He was and did not call Him God, ( Matthew 8:28) ( Mark 5:7) ( Luke 8:28).
In John 1, John is writing this after Jesus had ascended, in the beginning, is when the Messiah/Jesus first came, the beginning of His ministry, He was the word of God, the Word was God because it was from God, in Him was life and the light of men. John the Baptist was sent to be a witness of this light who was Jesus, and this light cometh to all in the world. It "shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not". As then the same today.
Jesus now was in the world that He made and they did not know him, He went to his own/Israel and they rejected Him. But as many that received Him became sons of God born again into the kingdom of God not of the will of the flesh but of the Father.
The word of God was made flesh, in scripture everything Jesus said or did was told to Him by God, ( John 5:30) Jesus was the word of God. In ( 1John 1:1-7) John's opening is similar to his opening in John 1, he is confirming John 1.
I hope this makes sense?
God bless,
RLW
The understanding of God & His Son Jesus meant much more than Jesus appearing at birth as the Son of God - it meant that Jesus proceeded out from God ( John 16:27,28).
You would not be denying the Son of God by referring to Jesus as God (always within the Deity from whence He came at the first). Jesus, as God's Word, was always within the Godhead. The fact that He became human can't deny Him His Divinity (or else, He wouldn't be worshipped in Heaven: Revelation 5:1-14; & holding the descriptions of God: Revelation 1:8,11,17,18). If He weren't part of the Godhead, how could He receive worship from the heavenly hosts?
"Can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?" you ask. I believe he can be. One doesn't have to know & understand all doctrines or have read the Bible through, to attain salvation, except to come in contrition, an earnest yearning for salvation, & that through faith in the Cross. But after knowing the Word, & rejection of the Deity of Christ, I have no opinion on what is God's matter alone.
Two questions from me, which I have asked several times before on KJBO, without answer:
1. Why did God have to send His only begotten to die for us - couldn't a special Heaven-prepared lamb not do the job? Leaving aside the prophecy speaking of a Man coming in David's lineage, since prophecy is only God's Word sent out after God's Determination first.
2. If John 1:1-14 speaks of God's Word being with Him & of Him, & that Word was given a human body & dwelt among His people, what other meaning can be given to these words, other than a clear belief of Christ's Deity? Why do those who reject Jesus' pre-existence fail to give an exposition of these verses? Every blessing.
Brother Ronald. Thank you once again for your comments. I agree, whether Ignatius, Polycarp or any other succeeding them, even the Apostle Peter himself, can all be found in error in some doctrine or teaching ( Galatians 2:11-14). Though, my point was in their belief in the Deity of Christ.
To your references on the Trinity 'fallacy': Revelation 21:22. God is Spirit - the Spirit of God is within the Godhead - the Lamb (post resurrection) is in His glorified State, as the Incarnate Word of God made flesh & now in Glory. Jesus is no longer the Word of God within God's Being, but His Word made flesh, risen & reigning at the Father's right Hand.
1 John 2:22-24. You seem to be well studied brother. Then you would know that 1st John was written explicitly to confront the errors of Gnosticism (& other false teaching) that were running rampant in the Church. The discussion begins from verse 18, concerning the many 'anti-christs' in the Church, deceiving the believers by their lies & corruption of accepted apostolic teaching. The prevailing Docetic (an off-shoot of Gnosticsm) heresy was that "the incarnation was incredible because Deity cannot unite itself with anything material, as a body of flesh".
Then in the reference you gave, the question from John is, "who is a liar?" The liar is that one who has come to you denying the incarnation, saying 'it's impossible for a Holy God, Who is Spirit, to unite with sinful flesh by having a Son: "but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son". This would have reference not only to the Jews that deny Jesus as their Messiah, but certainly to those who went by the name of 'Christian'; they who denied either His proper Deity, or real Humanity, as Ebion and Cerinthus, who were denying Him to be the God-man, the Mediator, & the Messiah. (cont'd).
1 John 2:22-23
Thank you so much for your time in answering me. It has been a while, but what I do remember, Ignatius was implemental in setting up the appointment of bishops and their authority, I feel this is what Jesus was referring to in Revelation about Nicolaitanes. What I remember of Polycarp, he was against the teaching of the immortal soul and idol worship.
I understand the main debate was Jesus being created and not divine but they went too far. When Christianity went out some of the word meanings were influenced by Greek philosophy like the meaning of death it came from Plato, it was the separation of the soul and the body, and Aristotle wrote: "All things are true, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods;
The trinity doctrine says the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and co-equal, scripture does not support that to me. If so, why are not all three the temple in ( Revelation 21:22)? When I was studying one day I came to this verse and it stood out like a magnifying glass was in front of it. ( 1 John 2:22-24)
I'm sure you have a different understanding, but I feel if I say Jesus is God I am denying the Son, it is the Son and the Father, and when we make them one, we deny the Son and the Father. I know this is a subject that many will not even discuss and it is considered heresy not to believe in this doctrine, and I thank you for your reply.
I assure you I am not of Gnosticism as some of the posts on here. Your kidney analogy was pretty good, your kidney is part of you, it will always be your kidney, but you gave it to save someone. God gave a part of Him, not created by Him, but out of Him to save you and me. Your kidney is part of you, it is from you, the same DNA, but after you take it out of you can you say it is you?
I will ask you a question I have asked before, can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?
God bless you and the work you do.
RLW
I don't know what you think of the early Church fathers, but at least two, who were contemporaries to the Apostle John: Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch (35-107 AD) stated, "For OUR GOD, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan" & in another writing, "Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life".
Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna (69-155 AD): "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our LORD AND GOD Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead". And of course, there were many more after them that attested to the Divinity of Christ on Earth.
I realize that these men, though historical, have their writings & letters considered extra-biblical, which will justifiably raise eyebrows & concerns. Yet, it does point out two things: that the Deity of Christ was still believed not only through the apostolic age but into the post-apostolic age and it was not at the Nicene Council in 325 AD, which pushed for the acceptance of Trinitarian belief, which is erroneously fed to us these days. The denial of Christ's divinity stems from Gnostic thought & propagation, & sadly many Christians fall for it. Apologies for the length of this response - I have tried to deal with your points briefly, brother.
Yes, I believe Jesus was capable of committing sin as he was flesh & Satan took advantage of the weakness & susceptibility of it. But for Him to sin, would mean the receiving of a sin nature, become a failure as Adam became, & be rejected as the only acceptable Sacrifice for sins. We would never be able to attain salvation in any other way & only God could know what His Son's condition & position would be henceforth (I couldn't even begin to contemplate such a thought). But for His holiness, His resolve, & His great love for us, He thwarted Satan's attempts "on all points" of temptation pertaining to life.
To think of Jesus just as "the Divine Son of God & Name above all names without saying He is God", I believe is to seriously undermine the Nature of God in its completeness. Just because a kidney can be removed from me & transplanted to another, doesn't mean that stops being my kidney (just a weak analogy). Fortunately, I can survive on one kidney, but it will always remain my kidney that I gave to another because I was born with it & was given from my body. If Jesus (the Word) came out from God's Being, He always remains God, even as God's Spirit always remains God. What causes the confusion, is our incapability of understanding that 'three can be one' with any 'part' able to be wherever, doing whatever God prescribes for 'it'.
Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord & my God" ( John 20:28); as well as Philippians 2:6; Colossians 2:9,10; John 10:30,33; Isaiah 7:14 cf Matthew 1:23 are some Scriptures that attest to Jesus' Divinity.
Hello Ronald. Thank you brother for your thoughtful comments & I certainly respect the spirit that you have given them in. In considering both the individual aspects of your comments as well as its overall thrust, I would say that at the first, we need to determine Jesus' position pre-incarnate & post-incarnate. On this determination, hang all our beliefs & discussions of the Godhead (i.e. the Father, the Word & the Holy Spirit).
Re: Jesus' flesh. As I read the Word, I believe that Jesus was born of God entirely pure, i.e. with flesh untarnished with sin. It could be said that his flesh was as that of Adam, pre-fall. However, Adam sinned & the sin nature & propensity to sin passed on all of us, but Jesus refused to sin, that "he was on all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" ( Hebrews 4:15b) - still in the flesh but the sin nature couldn't take hold. Some would say that Jesus was the product of the fusing of the seed of God & the seed of Mary. I would tend to disagree; if anything directly human was involved in human production, then the sin nature has to be passed on. I believe that what was placed in Mary was entirely of God & Mary was the vehicle for bringing forth a child, in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning Him.
So, when I say 'Godhead', in lieu of 'Trinity', it is to firstly avoid the naysayers, & secondly to emphasize that the Godhead cannot be complete without the Word & the Spirit being vitally connected & a part of Almighty God's Being. If the Word proceeded out from God, as even He sends forth His Spirit, then the Word made flesh must be the exact personification of God, sans the humanity & the laying aside of His Glory that "He had with (God) before the world was" ( John 17:5).
I love reading your posts, it is refreshing, there is not a curtain covering your heart.
God bless,
RLW
the spirit is the god. everything after this is by inheritance.
christ was the firstborn. the firstborn received the inheritance of the father. his father is the god (source of life, truth, etc. christ became a god through inheritance.
christ came to give us this same inheritance, we also will become a god through inheritance.
psalms 82:6
john 10:34-35
john 17:21
I would love to discuss this lovingly, I am born again and I do my best to walk in the Spirit and I pray when I study to be led by the Holy Spirit. I was in a church in my early life but not saved until my forties. I have been to many different denominations since, and from what I have seen, this creed is placed above salvation that is only through Jesus Christ and placed as the foundation of Christianity.
Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means "God with us". Another understanding, when the first Adam sinned God could no longer dwell in man. Jesus, the last Adam, on the cross repaired what the first Adam did, God can again abode/dwell in man. In Jesus through the Holy Spirit God dwells in us, now God is with us.
John 10:30 answer, John.17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 1:1 The word was God (in the beginning) God has no beginning or end so, what beginning? Is this beginning of everything or is it a prelude to Jesus's ministry that John repeats in 1 John 1 the declaring the Messiah has come in the world? I do not believe Jesus was created. Is there anyone living that can say how Jesus was begotten? Does not a word have to be spoken before it is a word?
Philippians 2:5 answers Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. If we read a little further we see why ( Philippians 2:8-9)
I can go on but my question is; why has this creed, the trinity doctrine, developed four hundred years after Jesus by the Roman Catholic Church that is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, has become more important than the gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Do you believe if someone does not accept the trinity doctrine they are not saved and are not a Christian?
In the love of Christ,
RLW
1. Isaiah 7:14 - People called Jesus Immanuel which means "God with us"
2. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
3. John 8:19 "if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
4. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
"Word WAS God."
5. Philippians 2:5 - 2:8 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
"form of God"
"equal with God"
6. John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus made everything.
7. John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
8. John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
9. 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
10. Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image"
"Let us make" - plural.
What I gather from this is they are different but the same. We will probably never 100% comprehend this until after this life. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, but it says they made everything together, are in each other, have similar form, they both have great power to do miracles, and both are referred to as God in the Bible.
If I may ask a question, I respect your knowledge of scripture. Jesus is the Son of God the beginning of creation, He is the first and the last, and His name is above all other names that are named and through Him, all was created. After His resurrection, God placed Him above all, until He puts every enemy under His feet, and we know that is death, ( 1 Corinthians 15:25-28).
We do see in ( Romans 8:3) He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, but there was not any sin in Him as was the first Adam when God formed him. The way many use the word Godhead, which is the same Greek words for divine, divinity, and divine being, gives the impression that Jesus could not sin. If Jesus was unable to sin what did He defeat? ( Hebrews 2:14-19)
The covenant had to be fulfilled in the flesh that was capable of sinning to be able to break the curse of sin. Jesus coming and what He suffered for us was the will of the Father. We even see in ( Matthew 26:39-44) and ( Luke 22:41-44) being in agony asking the Father if there is another way, but not the Sons' will but the Fathers.
Can't we know and accept the divinity of Jesus, as the Son of God, His name above all names, Him (Jesus) who now holds the authority overall, by God placing Him above all, Jesus is Almighty, ( Revelation 1:8), without saying He is God, which is called a mystery and confuses many? What I see and hear from scripture, there is God the Father, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, all are one in the will of the Father, and we as the servants of Christ, and through Jesus, we do the will of the Father and are one with the Father. Am I wrong?
I do not want to cause strife, this is just a seriously honest question asked out of love.
RLW
God bless you.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (i.e. Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Jesus is the "firstborn of every creature" both in rank & birth. The matter of His Birth concerns us here. The word for 'firstborn' in Greek is 'prototokos' = first to give birth to. Unlike, some translators, applying the word 'protokitises' = first created. Jesus was never a created Being - He proceeded from the Father & made flesh for mankind's benefit. Both in His part in the Godhead & in His humanity, He was the "firstborn", for it was only through Him that all things in the heavens & Earth were created & are held together. To use the word 'created' for Jesus' Birth is a misnomer & fallacy, because He was never a created Being.
Then we come to: "that body can hold the PRESENCE of God". Jesus may have laid aside His Glory, even given lower rank than that of angels, for the "suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:7; Philippians 2:7,8), but He never lost His Divinity & union to the Father. It is a misconception that in His Humanity, Jesus ceased to be Divine. If that were the case, we have a Saviour that became unqualified to pay such a ransom, & you suggest, took on a Body of sinful flesh (i.e. making Him a sinner). Rather, He took on the flesh (body) of man (as was Adam's, pre-fall), bearing upon His Body (carrying) our sins, that He might continue to be Holy & spotless, being the accepted Redeemer for our sins. Sin never entered Him & He never lost His Divinity even while on Earth.