You ask, "Did God create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty?"
My response is No. Keep in mind the Angels also sinned. Why didn't God save the Angels? Why create man so Christ could enter creation to save men? For whatever reason, Christ created man and entered the world as a man, to vanquish the devil ( Heb 2:14). Wasn't there a better way? Obviously not.
Consequently, because God created an existence susceptible to corruption ( Rom 8), we have to conclude that He created it that way because it was an absolute necessity. It could not have been done any other way. So God could have created a different existence, if and only if it were not necessary to create it as He did. 1 Peter 1:11, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" Peter tells us that even the Angels wait anxiously for our redemption, because their salvation depends on our salvation.
The Bible is clear. Christ didn't just come to save mankind from its sin. He came to redeem all of creation from its corruption. It so happens, God had to do that, of necessity, through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. See Heb 2:10-17, 1 Cor 2:7.
Rom 8:19-22, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."
God did not cause anyone to sin or corrupt. For whatever reason unknown to us, corruption is present in creation. To achieve eternal perfection in things created, God Planned Christ ( Rev 21:4, Acts 13:37). Why things deteriorate is a mystery of the physical laws of the material universe and the angelic realm.
Everything in Scripture, from Genesis 1-3:15 to Revelation 22 is about Christ. Everything points to Christ. God said in Isaiah 46:10 that His Purpose would stand. And in 14:24, "The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."
If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Col 1:16, Rom 11:36 and Heb 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."
I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.
So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble ( Rom 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?
The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?
The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary ( Rom 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration ( Rev 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ ( Col 1:16).
So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.
If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23Eph 1:4.
What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.
Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.
Chris, on Page 1 & 2. Thank you for your response and for continuing the conversation. I like controversy and ambiguity in a discussion, because it allows you to explore further and examine yourself and the substance of your beliefs.
That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:
1. All things have been created for Christ
2. The Future does not exist
3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose
4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is
5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation
6. God created to eradicate corruption
In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.
I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.
Ric - I am no fan of the Pope or the Vatican. However it was not Rome that killed the apostles, the prophets or Jesus.
King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 7:1 - After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.
Revelation 11:8 - And their (2 witnesses) dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Jesus, my LORD, was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom)
Jesus in John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 23:12 - And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
Jesus speaks in Matthew 23:15 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (ALL Pharisees are Jews, not all Jews are Pharisees) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Rabbis say Jesus was antisemitic)
7. Rom 5:13-15. I understand these verses (in paraphrase) to read: (v 13) 'until the delivery of the Law, sin was already in the world, but sin is not chargeable when there is no law'. So, without a Law, sin, though evident, is not chargeable. True, the Mosaic Law was not given at that time, but the Law of God was still evident with Adam & Eve, directly from the Mouth of God. Whether they learned their lesson from this & somehow resisted any other sin is unknown, but sin took its root in them. (v 14) 'death passed on from Adam to Moses (until the written Law), & sin affected all even those who didn't sin in the way that Adam/Eve sinned, & Adam being a figure of the One Who was to come'. (v 15) 'because of Adam, death has come to all, by Jesus Christ (the last Adam), God's Gift of Grace has been made available to many'.
So, "God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption". I agree with this statement that God knew that corruption would result in His Creation, but I have argued against 'that God had planned for this to happen so that His Son could come to Earth to redeem sinners'. God knew that Jesus would one day have to lay down His Life, but Creation wasn't planned to that end, or else, why even bother to create? Why put your Son to such agony, even as a man, & grieve your Own Heart so bitterly, just to fulfil Your Plan to have Your Son die for us? I'll leave it here & wonder whether this part of the thread is worth pursuing, unless there is some specific clarification I need. Thank you again for your time & clarity in your expression.
4. "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". We dealt with this before as I believe it wasn't inevitable at creation, but was inevitable as a result of man's disobedience. I also read through Rom 8,10 & could find no reference to God "placing all of His creation, including Angels, in a corruptible creation, so he could fix the problem of corruption". I did find Rom 8:19,38 on angels, but this had nothing to do with your statement.
5. Isa 48:7. "they are created now & not from the beginning.." 'Created', from the Hebrew, 'ginetai' = done now. In other words, all those hidden things of God have now been brought to light. Don't want to dwell on this, as there's opportunity for dispute here.
6. The Genesis account. Eve no doubt contemplated & was attracted by the fruit. Satan's involvement added further fuel to her thoughts, but she initially resisted him. Her innocency was real till that point: once the fruit was taken & eaten, sin entered. I simply can't fathom an extended time of sin's maturation in Adam & Eve for sin to finally develop. In that case, maybe if they were smart, they could have sought forgiveness & thus avoided sin taking root & becoming sin. Two trees: Tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil and Tree of Life. Do you see personalities in these trees? I know that in Rev 22:2, the Tree of Life is present. (onto Page 5).
2. "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose". Before offering comment, I do read your quoted references so that I get the fullest picture of what you are saying, though in my understanding of those Scriptures, I generally fail to apply the connection you intend. If the future is created by God for His Purposes, then is He instrumental in creating things that are not of His Character as well? If "No", then where does His purpose in creating the future stop & evil begin (within the scope of His 'planned' Knowledge, of course)? I simply can't grapple with such a concept, as a Holy God can't create the future & also create a sin situation so that His Purposes may be fulfilled. An illustration: A doctor goes on a walk & pushes over a ladder that has a man standing high above just so that he would fall & break some bones (i.e. planning the Future), so that he could practise some medical work on him (i.e. fulfilling that plan). One could wonder what sort of doctor, indeed human being, is he! I think you can see how perplexed I am with such a teaching.
3. "God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in". And then you mention that the "world is rotten & we are putrid". We are talking about the intent of God to create a perfect world with perfect people so they might worship Him & enjoy Him. After the fall, of course, we indeed became putrid & the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted (& yet, not without Him knowing all things, that this would happen). (onto Page 4).
1. Col 1:16": "..created for Christ". So after looking at the comments you make on this & indeed one of the central 'beliefs' you hold, 'is that creation's existence, is for the entrance of Christ into the world to accomplish God's Plan'. Then if I may ask: why should Christ need to come into the world in the first place? Christ didn't have any reason to come here, except for the fallen state of His created 'man'. You state, "What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan". Did God then create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty? Then why not save Christ the trouble of coming by not creating man? But if it was His Plan to do so, then was He under compulsion to create man & his directive for him to sin, so that Christ could then come to save him, since He planned for Him to come? Does this then, make God a Supporter of evil so that His Plan could be accomplished? (I say this, trembling). Did Satan have no choice (or, maybe even prompted by God) to come & tempt man, & accomplish his purpose, so that Christ could come to save man? Then your comment would then make sense, "Corruption is an inevitable consequence of creation": God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption so that His Christ could fulfil His Plan for removing that corruption. Where I have I misunderstood that understanding? And I beg your forgiveness, because what I've asked above is purely to try & understand concepts that I believe are strange to the meaning of Scripture; so I ask for more light on your beliefs. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, thanks for the time you've taken to deal with those points raised & apologies for taking time to respond. I should state, that my understanding of the Scriptures is not necessarily "what the modern Church has taught for the last few centuries", but from my own study of the Word & looking at cross references ensuring applicability. There are however, subjects that I would take the "modern Church" to task over which would only make this thread too ambiguous, if added here.
So, as I write, I do so from a careful consideration of the substance of the Scripture & using other Scriptures in support of it. You too have sent references, but as I studied them to see your point, I see that these references are based on & in the support of the assumptions you make & therefore they become strange to my reading as I see them in a different light & context. You mentioned the following: "All things have been created for Christ"; "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose"; "we are not the object of creation. Christ is"; "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation"; & "God created to eradicate corruption", are most of what I was able to glean. Since dealing with all this becomes a lengthy exercise, I will try to attend to them briefly. (onto page 2).
Chris, you are exactly right. I share your feelings. Thanks for clarifying on Confused. Genesis 10 outlines the beginning of the new generations from which Christ would enter the world. But there is something in the entire account of the Noahic account and the Ark that brings up a very important questions.
Did Noah only have 3 kids in the 950 years he lived?
Why did God spare Noah and his family, considering they were as corrupt as everyone else?
Why not just start creation all over again, in a setting that wasn't as conducive to sin, rebellion, disobedience and corruption?
We covered some of this in our previous discussions, but more is better.
In a recent conversation with a friend, I asked if she understood and could explain why keeping the Sabbath was so important to God, that He would even include it in the 10 Commandments.
I've enjoyed these discussions too, in fact I find myself staying up much later than I should, just to get on an interesting topic.
The original discussion post was NOT "Confused", though, that one caught my eye, because nothing in this world is more important than making sure their right with the Lord, because we as believers, already know, 'God is NOT the author of confusion but of peace' 1 Cor 13:33... but the original text was from Patricia
[I think we all .Is the boat when it comes to the bible. Instead of bickering back and to, accept by faith that every word is true. Nothing in this world matters but the fact that our almighty GOD sent his only begotten SON into this world to die for sinners of which everyone is, because in Genesis when Adam disobeyed GOD it made all sinners. There is still sinners so as GOD'S people we should be.]
Though true, not sure what that had to do with Genesis 10
As for whether it's a salvation issue, or a theological issue the bottom line for me is this: 1) Genesis 10 talks about the generations, (genealogy) of the sons of Noah not only as God's Written Word, but a historical document one can trust. 2) A reference guide.
Though I appreciate reading from those much more knowledgeable then I, I believe, this is the original meaning of this text, nothing hidden, it's just like it says.
Chris, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Wish everyone in the Christian world shared your perspective and attitude. I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been and I might not even have a good grasp of what I am trying to say. But let me try to explain.
In 2Peter3:16 we are warned to be attentive, because some usurp Scripture to their destruction. Paul in 1Cor11:16 also cautions us of excesses. But there are those that have created insulated cultures based on strict enforcement of unnecessary rules and conditions. Sometimes we refer to these as cults, but they are also found among denominations. They emphasize duties, that when violated, lead to losing salvation. Sabbath, Tithing, dress, works, adherence to OT restrictions, attending services 5 times a week. The list is endless. Pay attention to Gal2-4, 2:15-3:5, 3:28, 4:8-10. Shouldn't we live by our trust in Christ, instead of our list of do's and don'ts?
That is not to say we shouldn't be organized and observe good conduct. But not as a basis for salvation.
There is a lot to digest here, Chris. You bring up very good points. To your point b. Paul says "evil company corrupts good morals." Most people that engage in criminal activity or become addicted to something, experience a draw or deterioration over time. The devil, for example, did not corrupt instantly. Ezk28 tells us it became noticeable. He didn't wake up one day and say to himself, "Lucifer, today I become the devil." Even your analogy of dye in the glass requires a process. First it has to filter through the water. Then it becomes noticeable as the water changes color. God told the Israelites that although they wanted things done quickly, He had a Plan and it was in the works. Who said, "You have need of patience...". But the most obvious example of the process is Christ's appearance at the appointed time.
The Genesis story of the Garden is not complete. It is simplistic to believe Eve ate a fruit and she was instantly poisoned. There is more to the story. See Songs 2. She sat by the shade of the Tree. She contemplated its fruit. She was attracted to its glitter. And so was Adam. They were created in innocence. They were coaxed to become involved with the devil. God told them He did not want them to have anything to do with that Tree. By the way, what kind of tree was it? Were there any others like it? Or was it one of a kind? What does the Bible say? There were two Trees in the Garden. WHO were they? One bite and Eve became instantly aware of the difference between good and evil? Back to Paul, evil company...
Sorry, the quote on those that didn't sin same as Adam is found in Rom5:13-15. I hope I am doing this reading justice. What does it mean?
Your point c. God created to eradicate corruption. That's clear from Dan9:24 and others. If God created with a Plan and a Purpose, then sin was a consequence of creation. God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption.
The purpose of creation from the very beginning, was Christ. God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in, although we can enjoy that and are promised that as Believers. The fact is, the world is rotten and we are putrid.
People argue it is the fault of Free Will. But that is also a stretch. The Bible never says anything to that effect. We might have been created with the ability to choose, but our poor choices are the result of a corrupted nature. A perfect nature wouldn't sin. God didn't put Satan in the middle of the Garden to adorn it. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. The Angels rebelled. Men disobeyed. Eph4:22, Mk7:21, Rom1:21, Jer17:5.
A look at Scripture shows Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, to take away pain, suffering and establish eternal perfection (Dan9:24, 1Cor15:50). In Rom 8-10 we're told God placed us and all creation, to include Angels, in a corruptible creation, so He could fix the problem of corruption. See 1John3:8, Heb9:26, Eph1:11, 3:11. God's Will and Purpose cannot be thwarted.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' 48:7 - They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' 46:11 -I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.
My point is God created with a Plan, a Purpose. He did not create knowing His creation was going to fail and He would have to rescue it. He created specifically to destroy so much as the potential for corruption ( Heb 2:14).
Chris, I like these conversations because they make us think and search the Scriptures. Thanks for your comments. Your perspective is what the modern church has taught for the last few Centuries.
You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.
First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Col 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Heb 10:5 and Ps 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.
Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.
Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Dan 9:24, Rom 8.
b. (following comment). "corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in". And you gave an illustration of rust to metal. I'm from the stock that believe that as soon as sin entered Adam & Eve, they became sinners immediately & not over a period of time. My metaphor would be more of a glass of water to which some blue dye was poured in & the resultant instant complete enveloping change.
Also, your reference: " Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam." Apologies, I couldn't find any reference to this; maybe another Scripture.
c. "Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". I agree that corruption (sin's results) is a consequence of creation, but I don't think it was an inevitable consequence. Creation was made perfect, & so only after the fall of man did sin have its consequence over creation. However, if you meant that God's Plan included Christ's coming because of the inevitable fall of man, then I agree with you.
Carlos, I found your comments, "My perspective on sin might be a little different" & following, a very interesting read, one of those posts that required much further thought & searching. I think I understand your stand, as declared, & also knowing that in written expression, one's full intent isn't always recognized, as one could do in speech. So, I will raise some of my own thoughts & I apologize if I have misunderstood you.
a. "the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation from corruption". It is true, that the Omniscient God already knew that His Son's coming & Sacrifice was imperative for sinful mankind & thus His Plan from the beginning included Jesus, but I laboured over your point that the creation of mankind was for our redemption. From Scripture, I see that God created all things, including Adam & Eve, & saw that all was to His Pleasure & Satisfaction, & then rested on the seventh day ( Gen 2:2,3). I simply can't see that we were created so that we could be redeemed; rather, we were created so that we & our descendants, could enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in. The fact that Adam/Eve sinned & that nature passed onto us, was what God had already planned for & Jesus was in that Plan. Jesus, God's Word, was in Heaven (indeed, instrumental in the creative work: Col 1:15,16) & had no reason to be ever sent to Earth. The status quo was God's Plan & it was Perfect & as such there would have not been any need for Jesus' Coming, nor of His Millennial Rule, nor of new Heavens & Earth. Of course, from our viewpoint, that is hard to imagine, but now in His Mercy, He sent Him to us sinners, His very Own to redeem us. I can see what you're saying, but just felt that you have understood this aspect of creation differently: i.e. we were not created for redemption but for His Pleasure. (see next comment).
There's a Biblical principle that sin is passed from the third and fourth generation, but, BUT, Jesus is our great equalizer! Because if you make Jesus your Lord and Savior, then no matter what your parents or grandparents have done, or even you have done in the past you can be set free, all you have do is say, "Lord, I am a sinner, please forgive me for all my sins, and wash me clean so I can stand clean before You. Be my Savior and my Lord, make me into the person You want me to be, take all of me, I am Yours, in Jesus' precious Name."
Now, start reading your Bible, starting with the Gospel of John, then Romans, (they're in the New Testament) and stay connected to Christian people like this group, and when churches start opening up, find one in your neighborhood and become a part of them, you let them minister to you for a while, then get involved..
A question I always ask with respect to Genesis 10 is, "Why did God spare Noah and his family, knowing they were also the product of Adam's sin and would eventually disobey God?"
The response is very simple. God could not destroy or take Noah up to heaven with Him and start over again. Why? Had God rid the earth of sinful humanity, He would not have been able to carry out His Plan. But what was God's Plan? His Plan, from before time or creation, was Christ ( Col 1:16). Everything was created FOR the purpose of Christ to enter creation to eradicate corruption in all of creation ( Heb 10:5).
It was necessary for God to continue with Noah, because Noah was part of the Plan drawn before creation, to continue the human race, so Christ could enter the world. God was not reacting to a situation gone bad, when He told Noah to build the Arc. He was implementing His Plan in keeping with what He had already outlined in the Book of Life. See Daniel 10:21, 12:1, Rev 13:8 and Ps 139:16, among others.
To have a better understanding of these things and why God allows evil, it is essential to know that God created with a specific Plan. He created to rid creation of evil. But to do that, He had to initiate a process that takes time. And that process involved a fallen humanity. Not that God caused men to sin, but He subjected men to sin, so He could, through Christ, squash it. The unfortunate fact is that creation is susceptible to corruption and the only way to fix it is Christ.
Reply to Too Confused on Genesis 10. My perspective on sin might be a little different, if you can stay with me. 2Tim1:9 and Titus1:2 tell us that God created with the Plan of Redemption in mind. That is, the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation (Rom8:17f), from corruption. That includes death, evil, pain, suffering, sin, moral and physical corruption. In fact, God created everything that exists so that Christ could have a human body through which to eradicate, annihilate, destroy, evaporate corruption for all eternity and thereby establish perfection forever (Heb10:5, Dan9:24).
The Bible tells us that the first one to be corrupted was an Angel (Isa14 and Eze28). His name was Lucifer. Then corruption was found in him. It should be noted that corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in. When a piece of metal begins to rust, you might not even notice it. Corruption takes time. And just as Lucifer corrupted over time, Adam and Eve also corrupted over time. The Bible narrative in Genesis makes it seem as if once they ate the apple, they immediately became corrupt and sinful. But that is not realistic. A reading of Song of Solomon 2 paints a better picture of what happened in the Garden of Eden. In fact, Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam.
But God's Plan included Adam's fall, because had Adam not fallen into corruption, Christ would not have been part of the Plan. Unfortunately, Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Recall that the Plan came before the creation. Because the deterioration of the character and physical nature of Adam affected his genetic makeup, something we have a better understanding of today, his offspring (humanity) inherited his corrupt nature. Hence, we are all corrupt (Ps14:3).
So, sin is not entirely a matter of the will, but of a corrupt nature. PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION
To Confused. I think looking at it that Adam sinned therefore we are all sinners it can lead to laying blame on someone else Adam for our sins which is not the intent of the Scriptures I think the intent is more that through Adam and Eve sin entered the world and is now present and because of that we now have a choice to do Good or evil. remember all was Good in the garden. So we are now in a fallen state and have choices to make to sin or not to sin and we all choose to sin one way or another through out our lives. Thank fully GOD has provided a way for us to be reconciled to HIM through HIS SON JESUS who is without sin precious is HIS name who took upon HIMSELF the sins of the whole world upon that cruel cross so we would all have an opportunity to repent and ask Forgiveness for our sins that we did will fully on our own accord. So we are not sinners because of Adam, Eve or anyone else but by our own choices. I hope and pray this is helpful for you GOD Bless on your journey.
Noah didn't have anymore sons. Genesis 10. Generally daughters were not mentioned in recorded genealogy; unless in the genealogy that led to Jesus Christ or Son of man.
I think we all .Is the boat when it comes to the bible. Instead of bickering back and to, accept by faith that every word is true. Nothing in this world matters but the fact that our almighty GOD sent his only begotten SON into this world to die for sinners of which everyone is, because in Genesis when Adam disobeyed GOD it made all sinners. There is still sinners so as GOD'S people we should be
Gladys: They did have one language until the tower of Babel, where they tried to build a tower to God. God made them not to understand one another there and gave different families different languages and they was made to go into all the world. Each sticking to thier own family which became nations.
The bible carefully sets forth the generations. Is it so that the line of David can remain pure and to assure that Mary's roots can be traced back to the beginning as clean?
My response is No. Keep in mind the Angels also sinned. Why didn't God save the Angels? Why create man so Christ could enter creation to save men? For whatever reason, Christ created man and entered the world as a man, to vanquish the devil ( Heb 2:14). Wasn't there a better way? Obviously not.
Consequently, because God created an existence susceptible to corruption ( Rom 8), we have to conclude that He created it that way because it was an absolute necessity. It could not have been done any other way. So God could have created a different existence, if and only if it were not necessary to create it as He did. 1 Peter 1:11, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" Peter tells us that even the Angels wait anxiously for our redemption, because their salvation depends on our salvation.
The Bible is clear. Christ didn't just come to save mankind from its sin. He came to redeem all of creation from its corruption. It so happens, God had to do that, of necessity, through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. See Heb 2:10-17, 1 Cor 2:7.
Rom 8:19-22, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."
God did not cause anyone to sin or corrupt. For whatever reason unknown to us, corruption is present in creation. To achieve eternal perfection in things created, God Planned Christ ( Rev 21:4, Acts 13:37). Why things deteriorate is a mystery of the physical laws of the material universe and the angelic realm.
If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Col 1:16, Rom 11:36 and Heb 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."
I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.
So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble ( Rom 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?
The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?
The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary ( Rom 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration ( Rev 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ ( Col 1:16).
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.
If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.
What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.
Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.
That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:
1. All things have been created for Christ
2. The Future does not exist
3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose
4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is
5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation
6. God created to eradicate corruption
In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.
I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.
King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 7:1 - After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.
Revelation 11:8 - And their (2 witnesses) dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Jesus, my LORD, was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom)
Jesus in John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 23:12 - And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
Jesus speaks in Matthew 23:15 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (ALL Pharisees are Jews, not all Jews are Pharisees) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Rabbis say Jesus was antisemitic)
7. Rom 5:13-15. I understand these verses (in paraphrase) to read: (v 13) 'until the delivery of the Law, sin was already in the world, but sin is not chargeable when there is no law'. So, without a Law, sin, though evident, is not chargeable. True, the Mosaic Law was not given at that time, but the Law of God was still evident with Adam & Eve, directly from the Mouth of God. Whether they learned their lesson from this & somehow resisted any other sin is unknown, but sin took its root in them. (v 14) 'death passed on from Adam to Moses (until the written Law), & sin affected all even those who didn't sin in the way that Adam/Eve sinned, & Adam being a figure of the One Who was to come'. (v 15) 'because of Adam, death has come to all, by Jesus Christ (the last Adam), God's Gift of Grace has been made available to many'.
So, "God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption". I agree with this statement that God knew that corruption would result in His Creation, but I have argued against 'that God had planned for this to happen so that His Son could come to Earth to redeem sinners'. God knew that Jesus would one day have to lay down His Life, but Creation wasn't planned to that end, or else, why even bother to create? Why put your Son to such agony, even as a man, & grieve your Own Heart so bitterly, just to fulfil Your Plan to have Your Son die for us? I'll leave it here & wonder whether this part of the thread is worth pursuing, unless there is some specific clarification I need. Thank you again for your time & clarity in your expression.
4. "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". We dealt with this before as I believe it wasn't inevitable at creation, but was inevitable as a result of man's disobedience. I also read through Rom 8,10 & could find no reference to God "placing all of His creation, including Angels, in a corruptible creation, so he could fix the problem of corruption". I did find Rom 8:19,38 on angels, but this had nothing to do with your statement.
5. Isa 48:7. "they are created now & not from the beginning.." 'Created', from the Hebrew, 'ginetai' = done now. In other words, all those hidden things of God have now been brought to light. Don't want to dwell on this, as there's opportunity for dispute here.
6. The Genesis account. Eve no doubt contemplated & was attracted by the fruit. Satan's involvement added further fuel to her thoughts, but she initially resisted him. Her innocency was real till that point: once the fruit was taken & eaten, sin entered. I simply can't fathom an extended time of sin's maturation in Adam & Eve for sin to finally develop. In that case, maybe if they were smart, they could have sought forgiveness & thus avoided sin taking root & becoming sin. Two trees: Tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil and Tree of Life. Do you see personalities in these trees? I know that in Rev 22:2, the Tree of Life is present. (onto Page 5).
2. "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose". Before offering comment, I do read your quoted references so that I get the fullest picture of what you are saying, though in my understanding of those Scriptures, I generally fail to apply the connection you intend. If the future is created by God for His Purposes, then is He instrumental in creating things that are not of His Character as well? If "No", then where does His purpose in creating the future stop & evil begin (within the scope of His 'planned' Knowledge, of course)? I simply can't grapple with such a concept, as a Holy God can't create the future & also create a sin situation so that His Purposes may be fulfilled. An illustration: A doctor goes on a walk & pushes over a ladder that has a man standing high above just so that he would fall & break some bones (i.e. planning the Future), so that he could practise some medical work on him (i.e. fulfilling that plan). One could wonder what sort of doctor, indeed human being, is he! I think you can see how perplexed I am with such a teaching.
3. "God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in". And then you mention that the "world is rotten & we are putrid". We are talking about the intent of God to create a perfect world with perfect people so they might worship Him & enjoy Him. After the fall, of course, we indeed became putrid & the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted (& yet, not without Him knowing all things, that this would happen). (onto Page 4).
1. Col 1:16": "..created for Christ". So after looking at the comments you make on this & indeed one of the central 'beliefs' you hold, 'is that creation's existence, is for the entrance of Christ into the world to accomplish God's Plan'. Then if I may ask: why should Christ need to come into the world in the first place? Christ didn't have any reason to come here, except for the fallen state of His created 'man'. You state, "What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan". Did God then create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty? Then why not save Christ the trouble of coming by not creating man? But if it was His Plan to do so, then was He under compulsion to create man & his directive for him to sin, so that Christ could then come to save him, since He planned for Him to come? Does this then, make God a Supporter of evil so that His Plan could be accomplished? (I say this, trembling). Did Satan have no choice (or, maybe even prompted by God) to come & tempt man, & accomplish his purpose, so that Christ could come to save man? Then your comment would then make sense, "Corruption is an inevitable consequence of creation": God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption so that His Christ could fulfil His Plan for removing that corruption. Where I have I misunderstood that understanding? And I beg your forgiveness, because what I've asked above is purely to try & understand concepts that I believe are strange to the meaning of Scripture; so I ask for more light on your beliefs. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, thanks for the time you've taken to deal with those points raised & apologies for taking time to respond. I should state, that my understanding of the Scriptures is not necessarily "what the modern Church has taught for the last few centuries", but from my own study of the Word & looking at cross references ensuring applicability. There are however, subjects that I would take the "modern Church" to task over which would only make this thread too ambiguous, if added here.
So, as I write, I do so from a careful consideration of the substance of the Scripture & using other Scriptures in support of it. You too have sent references, but as I studied them to see your point, I see that these references are based on & in the support of the assumptions you make & therefore they become strange to my reading as I see them in a different light & context. You mentioned the following: "All things have been created for Christ"; "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose"; "we are not the object of creation. Christ is"; "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation"; & "God created to eradicate corruption", are most of what I was able to glean. Since dealing with all this becomes a lengthy exercise, I will try to attend to them briefly. (onto page 2).
Did Noah only have 3 kids in the 950 years he lived?
Why did God spare Noah and his family, considering they were as corrupt as everyone else?
Why not just start creation all over again, in a setting that wasn't as conducive to sin, rebellion, disobedience and corruption?
We covered some of this in our previous discussions, but more is better.
What is it about the Sabbath that means so much?
The original discussion post was NOT "Confused", though, that one caught my eye, because nothing in this world is more important than making sure their right with the Lord, because we as believers, already know, 'God is NOT the author of confusion but of peace' 1 Cor 13:33... but the original text was from Patricia
[I think we all .Is the boat when it comes to the bible. Instead of bickering back and to, accept by faith that every word is true. Nothing in this world matters but the fact that our almighty GOD sent his only begotten SON into this world to die for sinners of which everyone is, because in Genesis when Adam disobeyed GOD it made all sinners. There is still sinners so as GOD'S people we should be.]
Though true, not sure what that had to do with Genesis 10
As for whether it's a salvation issue, or a theological issue the bottom line for me is this: 1) Genesis 10 talks about the generations, (genealogy) of the sons of Noah not only as God's Written Word, but a historical document one can trust. 2) A reference guide.
Though I appreciate reading from those much more knowledgeable then I, I believe, this is the original meaning of this text, nothing hidden, it's just like it says.
In 2Peter3:16 we are warned to be attentive, because some usurp Scripture to their destruction. Paul in 1Cor11:16 also cautions us of excesses. But there are those that have created insulated cultures based on strict enforcement of unnecessary rules and conditions. Sometimes we refer to these as cults, but they are also found among denominations. They emphasize duties, that when violated, lead to losing salvation. Sabbath, Tithing, dress, works, adherence to OT restrictions, attending services 5 times a week. The list is endless. Pay attention to Gal2-4, 2:15-3:5, 3:28, 4:8-10. Shouldn't we live by our trust in Christ, instead of our list of do's and don'ts?
That is not to say we shouldn't be organized and observe good conduct. But not as a basis for salvation.
The Genesis story of the Garden is not complete. It is simplistic to believe Eve ate a fruit and she was instantly poisoned. There is more to the story. See Songs 2. She sat by the shade of the Tree. She contemplated its fruit. She was attracted to its glitter. And so was Adam. They were created in innocence. They were coaxed to become involved with the devil. God told them He did not want them to have anything to do with that Tree. By the way, what kind of tree was it? Were there any others like it? Or was it one of a kind? What does the Bible say? There were two Trees in the Garden. WHO were they? One bite and Eve became instantly aware of the difference between good and evil? Back to Paul, evil company...
Sorry, the quote on those that didn't sin same as Adam is found in Rom5:13-15. I hope I am doing this reading justice. What does it mean?
Your point c. God created to eradicate corruption. That's clear from Dan9:24 and others. If God created with a Plan and a Purpose, then sin was a consequence of creation. God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption.
The purpose of creation from the very beginning, was Christ. God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in, although we can enjoy that and are promised that as Believers. The fact is, the world is rotten and we are putrid.
People argue it is the fault of Free Will. But that is also a stretch. The Bible never says anything to that effect. We might have been created with the ability to choose, but our poor choices are the result of a corrupted nature. A perfect nature wouldn't sin. God didn't put Satan in the middle of the Garden to adorn it. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. The Angels rebelled. Men disobeyed. Eph4:22, Mk7:21, Rom1:21, Jer17:5.
A look at Scripture shows Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, to take away pain, suffering and establish eternal perfection (Dan9:24, 1Cor15:50). In Rom 8-10 we're told God placed us and all creation, to include Angels, in a corruptible creation, so He could fix the problem of corruption. See 1John3:8, Heb9:26, Eph1:11, 3:11. God's Will and Purpose cannot be thwarted.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' 48:7 - They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' 46:11 -I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.
My point is God created with a Plan, a Purpose. He did not create knowing His creation was going to fail and He would have to rescue it. He created specifically to destroy so much as the potential for corruption ( Heb 2:14).
You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.
First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Col 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Heb 10:5 and Ps 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.
Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.
Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Dan 9:24, Rom 8.
Also, your reference: " Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam." Apologies, I couldn't find any reference to this; maybe another Scripture.
c. "Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". I agree that corruption (sin's results) is a consequence of creation, but I don't think it was an inevitable consequence. Creation was made perfect, & so only after the fall of man did sin have its consequence over creation. However, if you meant that God's Plan included Christ's coming because of the inevitable fall of man, then I agree with you.
Thank you Carlos, that was a good read.
a. "the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation from corruption". It is true, that the Omniscient God already knew that His Son's coming & Sacrifice was imperative for sinful mankind & thus His Plan from the beginning included Jesus, but I laboured over your point that the creation of mankind was for our redemption. From Scripture, I see that God created all things, including Adam & Eve, & saw that all was to His Pleasure & Satisfaction, & then rested on the seventh day ( Gen 2:2,3). I simply can't see that we were created so that we could be redeemed; rather, we were created so that we & our descendants, could enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in. The fact that Adam/Eve sinned & that nature passed onto us, was what God had already planned for & Jesus was in that Plan. Jesus, God's Word, was in Heaven (indeed, instrumental in the creative work: Col 1:15,16) & had no reason to be ever sent to Earth. The status quo was God's Plan & it was Perfect & as such there would have not been any need for Jesus' Coming, nor of His Millennial Rule, nor of new Heavens & Earth. Of course, from our viewpoint, that is hard to imagine, but now in His Mercy, He sent Him to us sinners, His very Own to redeem us. I can see what you're saying, but just felt that you have understood this aspect of creation differently: i.e. we were not created for redemption but for His Pleasure. (see next comment).
Though much has already been said,
I'm going to make this brief,
There's a Biblical principle that sin is passed from the third and fourth generation, but, BUT, Jesus is our great equalizer! Because if you make Jesus your Lord and Savior, then no matter what your parents or grandparents have done, or even you have done in the past you can be set free, all you have do is say, "Lord, I am a sinner, please forgive me for all my sins, and wash me clean so I can stand clean before You. Be my Savior and my Lord, make me into the person You want me to be, take all of me, I am Yours, in Jesus' precious Name."
Now, start reading your Bible, starting with the Gospel of John, then Romans, (they're in the New Testament) and stay connected to Christian people like this group, and when churches start opening up, find one in your neighborhood and become a part of them, you let them minister to you for a while, then get involved..
I'll be praying for you
The response is very simple. God could not destroy or take Noah up to heaven with Him and start over again. Why? Had God rid the earth of sinful humanity, He would not have been able to carry out His Plan. But what was God's Plan? His Plan, from before time or creation, was Christ ( Col 1:16). Everything was created FOR the purpose of Christ to enter creation to eradicate corruption in all of creation ( Heb 10:5).
It was necessary for God to continue with Noah, because Noah was part of the Plan drawn before creation, to continue the human race, so Christ could enter the world. God was not reacting to a situation gone bad, when He told Noah to build the Arc. He was implementing His Plan in keeping with what He had already outlined in the Book of Life. See Daniel 10:21, 12:1, Rev 13:8 and Ps 139:16, among others.
To have a better understanding of these things and why God allows evil, it is essential to know that God created with a specific Plan. He created to rid creation of evil. But to do that, He had to initiate a process that takes time. And that process involved a fallen humanity. Not that God caused men to sin, but He subjected men to sin, so He could, through Christ, squash it. The unfortunate fact is that creation is susceptible to corruption and the only way to fix it is Christ.
The Bible tells us that the first one to be corrupted was an Angel (Isa14 and Eze28). His name was Lucifer. Then corruption was found in him. It should be noted that corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in. When a piece of metal begins to rust, you might not even notice it. Corruption takes time. And just as Lucifer corrupted over time, Adam and Eve also corrupted over time. The Bible narrative in Genesis makes it seem as if once they ate the apple, they immediately became corrupt and sinful. But that is not realistic. A reading of Song of Solomon 2 paints a better picture of what happened in the Garden of Eden. In fact, Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam.
But God's Plan included Adam's fall, because had Adam not fallen into corruption, Christ would not have been part of the Plan. Unfortunately, Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Recall that the Plan came before the creation. Because the deterioration of the character and physical nature of Adam affected his genetic makeup, something we have a better understanding of today, his offspring (humanity) inherited his corrupt nature. Hence, we are all corrupt (Ps14:3).
So, sin is not entirely a matter of the will, but of a corrupt nature. PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION