Genesis Chapter 10 Discussion Page 6



 
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 2.

    But where my problem lies, is from one of our earlier discussions on: 'God's whole plan for Creation was to have Christ come into His Creation as a Man, to redeem man from his corruption' (or words to that effect). To me, that sounds like God's creation of man was unnecessary except to be the 'vehicle' for Christ's physical embodiment to lay down His Life. I disputed that, even to this time I find no need for God to even create man, if it was only for Christ's Sacrificial purposes. Why create man in the first place, I think was my original question? I believe you referred to God's Planning in your answer: that it was in God's original design that man would be born into corruption, hence the Plan for Christ's appearance. It is this issue that I stumbled on (as well as God's Planning vs His Foreknowledge).

    Again, I agree that Christ's coming was in God's original Design to rescue fallen man, but to just create man for no other reason except for Christ's humanity, I find my mind unable to grasp such a thought. And at that time, we had discussed the purposes of man's creation. I had said that it was for God's Pleasure (He saw that ALL of His Creation was good/very good) & that His creation (man) had the privilege of living amongst all of God's Creation & enjoying a pure & holy relationship with his Maker: even as His other Creation (angels) are now enjoying. Another answer to this question, I don't have, as I'm not privy to it, but to believe man's creation was just for the entrance of Christ, is strange. To all this you did disagree, & I accept that since it is not specified as such, just my supposition from the tenor of relevant Scripture.
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 1.

    Carlos, your comment (May 13th) is not posted in this section even though I'm directed to it. So I'll respond anyway, reading if off my email.

    I do agree with you on all of your points, i.e. Christ was given a body as man's; all the relevant Scriptures point to this event (Abel's offering & Abraham's offering of Isaac, & many others that signify the need for Christ to ultimately make payment for sins, for which animal sacrifices could not). I agree as well to, "is it fair to conclude that both the Shadow and the object that casts that Shadow, Christ, were for Christ to enter the world as the True Sacrificial Lamb?" Yes, this is the correct conclusion.

    You quote Isa 40:3. I wish I could find my reference to that as it's not in the referenced thread. I think some of my pages sent to you & probably others from you have been clipped. I had sent four pages recently, but only one (the fourth page: the two trees) appears. I just don't recall using Isa 40:3 at this juncture. So, in truth, you have expressed yourself very clearly & I've had no difficulty in understanding your points & I find myself in complete agreement with them in your post. (onto page 2)
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 2.

    d. The use of the word "Mystery". Whenever used in the Bible, it denoted something now revealed that wasn't known before, whether fully or partially. E.g. Rom 11:25 (Gentiles would be saved, hence Israel's blindness); Eph 1:9 (Jew & Gentiles would be one in Christ); Eph 3:3 (Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, partaking in the same promise); Eph 5:32 (Christ & His Church alluded to a husband/wife relationship); Col 1:26,27 (Christ indwelling Gentiles); 2 Thes 2:7 (a type of wickedness not seen or imagined before which will be evident in the Anti-Christ); and to the Rapture: 1 Cor 15:51 which is Paul's message to the Corinthians as was to the Thessalonians: that this Mystery, that was not revealed before (whether by Prophecy or by Jesus), is now revealed to the Church. And this was not just a prelude to the Second Coming of Christ, but an indication that as before, in olden times, God would spare His people (now the Church & not the Jew), from His Great Anger that would come to all unbelievers.

    e. 1 Thes 5:9. Paul speaking about the sudden appearing of the Day of the Lord urges the believers not to be slothful but to await that Day. Why? Because "God has not appointed us to wrath (His Wrath upon the World), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". And this 'salvation' I understand is the saving of His Church from the Wrath of God.

    P.S. I'll have a look at your YT channel. Thank you.
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 1.

    Hi Bob, I can understand how the word 'Rapture' can be used as a verb, but it is also quite rightly used as a noun, to describe an event that is yet to take place. Now, the problem: Is this event (Rapture) a separate 'snatching away of believers prior to the outpouring of Gods Wrath' or is it a part of Christ's Second Coming for His millennial reign, implying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation, but will be kept "from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ( Rev 3:10)?

    I understand the Gk. word "Parousia" to mean 'Presence or a Presence after an Absence, an Arrival'. So this certainly allows for 'a literal physical coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom', but I see that it can also speak of His Coming for His saints specifically. Actually, there are various aspects from the Word, which compel me to believe that there will be a removal of His people first before the Anger of the Lord is poured out. Most of these you will be aware of:

    a. Gen 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.

    b. Ex 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.

    c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
  • Mishael - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Thanks Bob. A wonderful collecting of scriptures. Maybe everybody wants to feel that good.
  • Mishael - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    People do get targeted for their color in this culture. There's a lot of anger there. We are called to be mediators. In the 'family business' of reconciliation.

    Appears that maybe Moses took some lip for marrying someone the sister rejected because of the color.

    As Christians we have to be color blind. You can't pick and choose whom the Lord might say, "go talk to that one". We get crowns at Bema Seat. Jesus said EVERYONE is welcome. We just say, Yes Sir!

    The first will be last, and the last, first.
  • Adam - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Jesus was a Jew from the middle east, so he likely had the skin tone as most everyone does in that area. Also, people walked outside everywhere so he likely was very tan. But I wish people weren't so tied into race all the time as if they're hoping Jesus is a certain skin tone of their desires so they feel a certain way or belong to a certain fictional club. When people think about race so much, talk about it, treat others differently because of it, they have become the dictionary definition of racists, which is the vary thing a most of them claimed they wanted to avoid.
  • Bob Hilt - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    What race was Jesus? well maybe this shall explain. Revelation 1:14 - His [Jesus] HEAD head and his hairs were WHITE white like wool, as WHITE white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass,

    [Brass is made of copper which is REDDISH GOLDEN, not black] as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

    Bible book Song of Solomon 5:10 - My beloved is WHITE white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.

    Bible book Lamentations 4:7 - Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were WHITER whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:
  • Roberta White - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    my response is u just need to read the kjv bible it includes all races and loves them all and if you carefullly study jesus

    he was of what race or color do u thnik
  • Robert Marino - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Hi Chris, Some good things you said there. What I am trying to get people to see is that 1. rapture is a verb not a noun but I understand in our day and age we made it a noun and that is what we are used to saying.

    But I see those words UNTO the COMING in there. And if we are alive and REMAIN (SURVIVE IN THE GREEK) UNTO (MEANING RESERVED) the COMING how are we already gone? The word coming is parousia which is the literal physical coming of Christ to earth to set up his kingdom. Why are we ignoring that word? Did God make a mistake?

    Can you do me a favor and take my poll on my new youtube channel PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: TRUE OR FALSE? I couldnt' find any poll like this ever done. I'm trying to figure out why we in America came to certain beliefs. It will take two minutes to fill out in the comments section.

    thanks,

    Bob
  • Robert Marino - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Hi Bob,

    That seems right on to me. How did we all miss that? The tares are gathered before the wheat. Seems to me we have gone to God's Word with a lot of presuppositions from things we were taught early on in our walks. As far as I can tell, the tares are still here so HOW CAN THEY BE LEFT BEHIND if they are taken first? Help me see this.
  • Robert Marino - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    You seem to believe in an unfulfilled 7 years in Daniel 9?

    I used to till I realized Jesus died int he middle of the 70th week because of that word AFTER in the previous verse. Then I looked up Bible commentaries pre-1830 to find that almost all taught the same thing.

    First 7 weeks or 49 years were fulfilled.

    Then the 62 weeks or 434 years.

    Then verse 26 says AFTER the 62 weeks but the 7 or 49 years are already fulfilled in the prophecy so Jesus didn't die before the 70th week but during.

    We have turned the Messiah, context of the passage, into a future antichrist. This was never taught until 15 year old Margarette McDonald had her vision and prophetic utterance (big time charismatic/Irvingite) in 1829/1830.

    At best, we have a 3 1/2 years to be fulfilled but I see it as fulfilled in 70AD because the Great Revolt lasted exactly 42 months and answers the WHY of General/Prince Titus in verse 26.

    I do believe in a Dual Prophecy interpretation. What I mean by that most of 2/3rds of Matthew 24 was historically fulfilled AND much of that chapter was spoken to THAT generation but something similar will happen AGAIN in a fuller way, on a worldwide scale. For example, the word world (oikenume) in Matthew 24 means Roman Empire and the apostles did preach the gospel to the whole world (oikenume) by 70 AD so they fulfilled that but if you take a FULL preterist approach that is just as dangerous as taking a full futurist approach to scripture.

    The word parousia in 1st Thess. 4:13-18 is the 2nd coming literally to earth. Paul puts the catching away (harpazo) AFTER the dead in Christ rise which is obviously THE resurrection and a twinkling of an eye BEFORE the physical return of Christ to establish His millennial reign. You should subscribe to my new youtube channel.
  • Patty Tozi on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    We are now living in what the Bible said would be in a fallen world of pain. We have to start living day to day if we are one of God's people. Fighting for the rights of us and others as Jesus did in this world of sin. Staying apart from the control we now are in. We are God's people. We are warriors to the end. Our strength comes from Jesus as his angels fight the demons that are around us. We are in a world of silent destruction of what we once knew to be good, now evil. Our children cannot do anything. It is a direct hit on our elders. Health care workers. Children. Parents in dire stress of survival. We are in a silent, quiet evil world, of bilogical warfare. The high ups that run this world are out of control on knowing what they know, but only telling the people what they want them to know , to further their lies. God is showing what the world will end up being-- by the floods. Earthquakes. Tornado. Hurricanes. Bigger and worse then ever. I feel for the ones straddling the fence right now, as the world goes faster and faster. Till one day..all hell will break loose before the second coming of Jesus-- to fight the last battle for His people. What a Glorious day that will be. In a dream l saw this. Believe it or not. WATCH!!!!
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris, following up on where I left off. As you point out, Hebrews 10:5 "speaks of the temporary, deficient & incompleteness of the sacrificial system & that only God's offering would accomplish God's Purposes." So, the logical conclusion is that if:

    1. God prepared a body for Christ

    2. And He prepared that human body before creation ( 2 Tim 1:9)

    3. And God created mankind in His image

    4. Then, can we conclude God created man so Christ could have a human body in His image?

    Or was it accidental? God either created man in His image on purpose and with a purpose, or the body for Christ was a convenient accident. Wasn't the Law, to include sacrifices, set up by God as a Shadow of what was to come? If the Law was a Shadow, what was it a Shadow of? For there to be a Shadow, there has to be a real object that casts that Shadow. And which comes first, the shadow or the object that casts that Shadow? Col 2:17. And if a Shadow, when was that Shadow cast? When God used an animal to clothe Adam and Eve? When Abel offered a better sacrifice than Cain? Or when Abraham offered his son on the altar?

    We see from these Scriptures, I hope, the Shadow of Christ's Sacrifice was cast prior to anything being created. Heb 8:5. Consequently, is it fair to conclude that both the Shadow and the object that casts that Shadow, Christ, were for Christ to enter the world as the True Sacrificial Lamb? Col 2:17, Isa 49:6, 51:5.

    Isaiah 40:3 sounds the call to prepare the way for the Lord. You said, "It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice." But if the call is not to man, who is the call to? Who was to come? A man. Why did God make man in His image? Because an animal could not meet the needs only the Man Christ could satisfy.

    And when did Christ start casting the Shadow? He started casting the Shadow back to the beginning of time, from the 1st Century Cross, to before creation. John 8:58. Which came 1st, Man, Shadow or Christ?
  • Mishael to Robert - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Only God the Father knows the time. Jesus is seated at Gods right hand making intercession for the saints. When it is time God will announce its time. Jesus (our Bridegroom) will stand and call up His saints (His Bride). We all will attend a wedding feast. At the end of that...I believe that Revelation goes into 2nd gear. Part is happening now: the oceans are dying. The stars are dimming. The earth is heating up. The Holy Spirit said it's not global warming. We have fire, floods, drought. It affects our economy. We now have an illness no one knows how to cure. Wormwood is out there on its way here.

    Israel is being pushed to accept a two state solution. God gave the land to Israel. Israel is back in their land and now LOVE their land and intend fully to defend it. There is a lot to look for the heartbeat of scripture.

    Nite yall
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 4.

    And as I'm about to send this off, I see another comment from you, re: the two trees. And now I focus on: "The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical." Taking a deep breath & staying focussed, I believe that I can now in truth, understand how you are perceiving Scripture. To say that the Garden of Eden & subsequent events were an allegory, leaves a great chasm between us that can never diminish. If that Garden was an allegory, what about when Jesus was led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil? One could allegorize this as well quite easily. Therefore, I feel that I now have a handle on your thoughts about all we discussed, and that is, we are basically viewing the Scriptures in quite different ways. Again, thank you for your time Carlos, & I will attend to other points that you might raise, but of course with a better understanding of your perceptions.
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 3.

    You said: "I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption." So the other aspect I see here (in a similar thought to 'Planning' & 'Foreknowledge'), is that you are possibly viewing God's Plans from the end & working backwards; so working backwards: God's Plan was to have a perfect restoration of all things since creation would undoubtedly be corrupted (i.e. the end of the Plan), but to get there, Satan had to be locked away for good, Christ had to come for sin, corruption of man & His other creation had to happen, Satan had to come into the picture, & therefore, God had to make a creation susceptible to that end (the beginning of the Plan). I realize you may not see it this way, indeed I may be quite wrong, but it's the only way I can make sense of your views.

    My view (with the Foreknowledge of God) works from the beginning: Creation of all things is perfect, Satan entered, man sinned, corruption of man & creation occurred, Christ had to come, Satan would be locked away, & God's Plan for a perfect restoration of all things realized. Anyway, as I said, this type of view (of Planning or Foreknowledge) does help me understand. (onto Page 4)
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 2.

    The word that I find is better suited is 'Foreknew'. Using the same scenarios of a world created perfect but would ultimately be corrupted, that man would fall into sin of his own choosing, that Satan would undoubtedly tempt him to do so, etc., are what I see as God's Foreknowledge, rather than His Planning. Even after studying your detailed explanation on these matters, I cannot fathom a Holy God planning to engineer certain things (which would necessarily include sin) from Creation to the full restoration of all things in the future, so that His Plans & Purposes would be realized. I rather see that He foreknew all things, that even in Creation, he knew man would corrupt himself, that Satan would not be far away, that the sacrificial system given to Israel was only temporary & a shadow of the True, that Christ must needs come to deal with the sin issue, that Satan would be finally be locked away & full restoration of all things be accomplished. Now how this 'foreknowledge' of God relates to His 'Planning' to accomplish all things, maybe a 'fine line' of interpretation. But I see that God's Foreknowledge determined His Plan to accomplish His Purposes, & that nothing would take Him by surprise, for He already knew all about all events. I agree, that He knew beforehand that His perfect Creation would one day succumb to corruption, but I see that He also continued on with creating, knowing that through man's knowledge of his sinfulness & need of a Saviour (which man couldn't provide), that the love the man lost because of sin & separation to God, would now be restored in full measure in the knowledge of God's Love for him in Jesus. (onto Page 3).
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Page 1.

    Carlos, I had replied to the first page you posted in your lengthy response to me, but I don't see it anywhere, so I'm going to try & deal with the crux of these matters, though appreciating the time you've taken in your detailed response. As well, I'm now inundated with your further postings, finding myself quite buried & gasping for air. I have looked at all of them, but I don't think I have the capacity & fortitude to deal with each matter. So with apologies for dealing so briefly as opposed to the time you've kindly expended to me, I write the following:

    The two key words used here is 'Planned' & 'Foreknew'. You have used the word 'Planned' often & I think that I'm not seeing the meaning in your way. Planning, for me, is when (in human terms), one sits down & sets a Plan on paper which brings in all manner of aspects for consideration, including possibilities for the proposed Plan to go one way or the other, hurdles, time lines, etc. When I apply it to God planning for certain things to happen (e.g. creation of man so that Christ could come to save him; planning the future so that certain things could happen & God Himself would be subject to it, etc.), I think of just that: God has laid out a Plan for events, good & bad, to happen & so His Purposes are fulfilled. That man was created into corruption, so Christ could enter that world of corruption to rid man & the world of it, was His Plan, causes me to gasp at such a thought. (onto Page 2)
  • Bob Hilt - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Good question. is there a 1 1/2 coming and then a 2nd coming? Jesus told us how the order of events are as

    Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.

    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?

    Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris, You state your points clearly, convincingly and succinctly. I wish I had that talent. And I wonder if saying the same thing a different way will move the conversation so those that read it will benefit. And although you grasp much of what I say, I wonder if there's more I haven't said or haven't said well. So I will outline my understanding below.

    Before God created anything, He Planned His creation

    Christ, as Savior, was included in that Plan

    The Plan also included Redemption

    The eradication of Wickedness (corruption)

    Vanquishing Death

    Establishing Eternal Perfection

    Creation of Mankind

    A Material creation as a parenthesis in eternity, With a beginning and an end

    At some point in time or before time Lucifer and other Angels rebelled

    The devil was banished to the Garden of Eden

    Man was created and placed in the Garden

    God Planted 2 Trees in the Garden before the Fall

    The devil tempted Adam and Eve

    They sinned and all mankind was imputed with the penalty

    Does the Bible say God knew Adam would to disobey Him? No. It implies He was not aware Gen 3:11

    If God did know, why didn't He stop them? God had a Plan called His "Eternal Purpose" Eph 1:4-11, 3:11, Isa 46:10-11

    Why did God create man, knowing man would disobey? For Christ Col 1:16, Rom 11:36

    Why did God get rid of everyone but Noah? His Promise and Covenant Gen 3:15

    Why did God create man in His image? To prepare a body for Christ. Ps 40:6, Heb 10:5

    Why did God Plant the Tree of Life in the Garden, before the Fall? We don't know Gen 3:22, 24

    Who is the Tree of Life? Jesus? Rev 22:2

    Who is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? The devil Eze 31, Matt 12:33-34

    Were Adam and Eve given a choice on whether to eat from the Tree of KGE or others? No. Gen 3

    Why did God include Christ in His Pre-creation Plan? To rescue all things created from perdition Eph 1:10, Col 1:20

    What was God's pre-creation Purpose? To reconcile all things in heaven and earth to Himself Col 1:13-20, Eph 1:10
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Robert, 1 Thes 4:15, 17 refer to this phrase you are sharing here. We understand this phrase to actually speak about the Rapture of the Church, i.e. when Christ comes for us, the dead in Christ will rise first & then we who are alive & on Earth will then go to be with Him. The apostle Paul gave these comforting words to the believers there, because some were despairing that those Christians alive would get translated & the dead believers' bodies would not. So, Jesus will take into account all who have been saved by faith - sadly many who think that they were saved, will be left behind to face the wrath of God upon mankind.
  • Robert Marino on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    How can i be alive and remain at the second coming, if i have already been raptured and gone in some pre-tribulation rapture?
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris, on your point 6, Page 4, I believe the Trees in the Garden are representative of Satan and Christ. Association with one results in separation from God and the other, eternal life with God. In Rev the Tree of Life is identified as Jesus. In another place we are encouraged to taste to confirm that God is good. Yet in another, we are given an outline of the Fruit of the Spirit.

    The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical. And the Tree of the knowledge...is no exception. Knowledge is absorbed through time and experience. When Paul says that evil company corrupts good morals, do you think he means that as soon as you enter the presence of an evil person, you become instantly corrupt? Corruption, by definition, is a deterioration of something good. It involves a decomposition, breakdown, deterioration, a weakening disintegration of something whole. Fruit putrefy because they begin to decompose. Animals die because their systems begin to break down and weaken. Taking my lead from Songs 2-5, which mirror events in the Garden of Eden, I see a slow progression from innocence to craftiness. It wasn't just one bite of a non-existent fruit that corrupted them. It was the constant association with what God told them to stay away from.

    Was there a fruit for the Tree of Life? What did it mean to eat from the Tree of Life? What does it mean now? Will we become instantly perfect when we eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life? Rev 22:2 tells us the Tree of Life yields 12 different kinds of fruit. Are these fruit physical and eatable? Clearly not. Is there a correlation between the two Trees in the Garden? Can one be metaphorical, but not the other? If one symbolizes Christ, is the other literal?

    Christ was tempted by the devil 40 days. He wasn't confronted just once with 3 temptations. These temptations were spread over the course of Christ's time in the desert. My point is that Adam and Eve were coaxed over time, because their character deteriorated.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris. Page 4.

    Romans 8:19-23 - The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

    We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

    1 Peter 1:10-12 - which things the angels desire to look into.

    You are right. While the passage mentions that creation was subjected to futility, it does not mention Angels. I must have assumed it did. I was wrong. Thank you for pointing that out. What I think the passage does mention is God's Plan to eradicate corruption, when it says, "in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay". What I thought the passage said about the Angels is found in 1 Peter, but I was wrong about that too and I am glad you corrected me. The Bible does not say Angels will benefit from God's Plan of Redemption.

    My argument, however, is that God's eternal Plan was for the annihilation of corruption, which includes death and evil. Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

    I suppose my thinking was that because Angels were also created and were subject to corruption, the Plan included them. But that was a stretch. As you pointed out, there is no mention of that at all.
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Carlos, thanks for attempting to respond to my queries: you're a brave man especially as our responses can go all over the place! To your answers:

    A. I don't have a problem of maintaining that Christ was already in God's Plan in Creation, as God, being God, already knows the future & His Plans for it. It's the other postulations that concern me.

    B. Heb 10:5, speaks of the temporary, deficient & incompleteness of the sacrificial system & that only God's offering would accomplish God's Purposes. It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice. And with Gal 3:16 & Rom 11:36, I can't see any connection.

    C. Heb 2 & Gal 3:16: sorry, I can't see in these references anything about God having to create man so as to then send His Son for man's sake.

    D. Rom 9:22-24. This shows that God was 'long suffering' towards 'sinners' awaiting the time He would show His great Mercy towards them. I don't see in this that God supported evil (i.e. he partook of or gave His assent to evil, so as to accomplish His Purposes).

    E. Job 1:12. God allowed Satan to test Job's faithfulness & conviction, not in bringing Satan to test Job.

    Mt 4:1; Lk 4:2. Ditto. Again, Satan approached Jesus, not brought to Him by God.

    Eph 3:10, 11. The theme of this begins in verse 3. It was about the "mystery of Christ". And what was it? In verse 6, "That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel." "And this mystery would be made known to all men (v 9) & to all the heavenly host (v 10), as well as from the Church's existence & testimony of this mystery, of God's manifold Wisdom". I've added words here, only for clarity, as in the original the intent is unclear. Of course, with any addition, comes another interpretation, so I leave this open.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris. Still on Page 3. You say that after the Fall "the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted". I am certain you don't believe that. You just haven't examined the thought. What does the Bible say about God and His Purpose? It specifically says it cannot be thwarted. The Purpose of God will stand.

    Isaiah 14:24, 26-27 - The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand. This the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

    Ephesians 1:4-5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

    Isaiah 46:9-11 - Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.

    Isaiah 48:3 - I foretold the former things long ago; they came out of My mouth and I proclaimed them.

    Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.

    Acts 4:28 - They carried out what Your hand and purpose had decided beforehand would happen.

    Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"

    The confidence we have is that God is trustworthy. He is not fickle. If God says we will be eternally perfect, we will be. If God had created Adam and Eve perfect, they would have been. And neither they, nor the devil would have rebelled against God.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris, Page 3. If God intended to create a perfect world, what happened? You say He knew man would fail. If while knowing man would fail, God created a world that allowed man to fail, was His intent to create a perfect world? Or was God caught by surprise? If God's intent was perfection, why did He plant a bad Tree in the middle of the Garden? Why did He send Satan to the earth and placed him right smack in the middle of the Garden? Or was God not aware that by placing Satan in the Garden, he would tempt Adam and Eve and cause them to disobey God?

    Can a perfect God fail? Is it possible for perfection to decay? If it was God's intent to make man perfect, why didn't He give man perfect wisdom and common sense? Can a perfect being be deceived? Can a perfect God be deceived? Were the Angels created perfect? Was the universe created perfect? Do perfect things corrupt?

    My conclusion, based on verses previously noted, is that God did not create a perfect world. He created an existence perfectly suited for His Purpose in Christ, who created everything that exists so He could enter His creation to make it perfect. Man was not perfect, because he could die. Were that not the case, the Tree of Life would have been meaningless. He was not perfect because he could fail. He wasn't perfect because God created him so Christ could enter creation and die. If men could not die, the Plan to have Christ born to die would have been a contradiction. Man had to die, so Jesus could die. Remember, the Plan for Christ to redeem mankind and all creation, through death, was completed before the Fall. Recall the story of Jacob and Esau.

    Death is the result of corruption. Whether Adam corrupted instantly or over time, is inconsecuential. Wether the devil corrupted instantly is also inconsequential. The fact is that they were capable of being corrupted. That makes them not perfect. In the perfect world to come, there will be no decay. All things will last forever incorruptible.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris, on to Page 3. The future does not exist. There can be no such thing as a future we can look into and determine what is going to happen. Isaiah 48 is clear on that. However, there appear to be certain things written in what Daniel 10:21 refers to as the Book of Truth, that give us a glimpse of things that God has determined will take place.

    The Future as an observable entity one can observe or even travel into is a logical contradiction and practical impossibility. If there were such a thing as a Future God could be aware of, outside of Himself, then God would be subject to whatever is set in that Future. That is, if God is aware of events outside of Himself, that will take place, then He is bound by that knowledge and can't act to change what He knows to be true. God would therefore, not be free. The Future would determine what He does, given that what He knows about what will happen as fact, must happen. Let me explain. If God knows, through intuition, knowledge, vision, prescience or because He is all-knowing, then what He knows to be the fact, must in fact happen. Otherwise, He would be wrong about what He understood or the Future would not be certain.

    If the Future God knows is not certain, then what God knows, is questionable. But if what He knows about the Future is in fact true, then God is locked into behaving as the Future reveals and incapable of changing it. Example: Jesus knows the Temple will be torn down at a specific time in the future. If the Temple is not torn down at that time, then Jesus was wrong about what He knew about future events. In other words, what Jesus knows about the future, has to take place. Otherwise, He doesn't know the future.

    Therefore, we have to conclude that if God tells us something that will happen, it is not because He has some insight into the future. It has to be because He specifically planned and set it up that way. God cannot be a prisoner of the future. He has to be logically able to act freely.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - In Reply on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
    Chris, again you ask, "God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption, so His Christ could fulfill His Plan for removing that corruption"?

    Again the answer is, 'somewhat'. The Bible says Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, evil and corruption. The Bible also says that was God's Plan before time even began ( Titus 1:2). If God planned the eradication of corruption (sin, evil, death, decay, pain, suffering), before any of it existed, then God created, in part to remove corruption from created things.

    If we can apply Daniel 9:24 to Christ, we can conclude that Christ came to get rid of corruption and establish eternal perfection. Throughout Scripture we see that God's purpose is to put an end to corruption (wickedness, evil). The hope of the Christian is that we will live in eternal incorruptibility ( 1 Cor 15:53).

    So, to accomplish His purpose of a perfect existence, God had to create the imperfect creation that exists. God not only understood, in His wisdom and infinite knowledge, that corruption would affect creation, He planned for it. I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption. Why would He? Consequently, He had to create the existence He created and make arrangements to make it perfect. To achieve perfection, all we have experienced had to happen.

    It was because of that, that God ceased His creative work on the 7th Day. God stopped creating, because He created with a Purpose. There isn't anything in the Bible that even suggests God created mankind for mankind's own sake. The only thing I see we are left with, is that God created for Christ to put an end to corruption in creation. As we can see from Hebrews 3-4, we are still in the 7th Day of God's rest. That's to say, God did not resume creating things the morning after the 7th Day. And God won't resume creating until Christ returns.


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