Mishael on This Earth Is NOT Our Home on Genesis 10 - 3 years ago
2 Corinthians Chapter 5:1-6
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident,
knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Comment: All born again believers will be caught up to Jesus, in the clouds; dead or alive.
Don't bet any big money on what you said about the continuing struggle of religious leaders to attain prestige and dominance over all those who ARE LEFT BEHIND.
There are plenty of history pages on this website to sift through about comments On After the Caught Up. It will be a massive display of Game of Thrones; except it will not be a game! There will be a person who will rise who will fix all the problems of the chaos LEFT BEHIND. Who will seem so competent that people will worship him as the savior of Peace! One by one, he will eradicate the man made thrones, until he alone is supreme Leader. ANTICHRIST. And then the Tribulation. Either you take His Mark and worship him or he will take your head off your body.
All those who die will be held for the Great White Throne Judgement. Google that.
Living people who manage to stay alive can still confess Jesus as Lord and go to heaven but it's going to be hard to evade being murdered by Antichrist, before then. Do not recant your vow to Jesus.
well said. What is your take on WHO will repopulate the earth for a literal millennial reign?
I ahve certain thoughts on the matter.
Those who take the mark of course are taken first in Matthew 24 (one is taken and one is left). Of course it was the wicked that were taken "as in the days of Noah".
We will get our glorified bodies before the millennium so it won't be us.
I know the modern Sanhedrin is pushing for worldwide Noahide Laws on ONLY Gentiles so if there is a mark of the beast connected to the Noahide Laws and that is where the New World Order is going, then they will be exempt. What is interesting is the Jewish Noahide laws call for beheading of idolators and their rabbis say Christians are the greatest idolators because we practice "partnering" where we make Jesus equal to the Father as we believe in the trinity.
Another possibility is those that haven't met the age of accountability.
Some think aborted babies will be sent back to earth to be tested. That sounds a little weird but someone has to repopulate the earth.
What is your take on this?
I lean heavily on the Noahide Laws as some Christians have already given themselves over to it, plus the huge growth of the Hebrew Roots Movement where some have even converted to Judaism now and left the Lord ( Hebrews 6). You also have the huge uprising of the Black Israelite cults like HOI, SICARII, GMS, ETC.
God is saving Muslims and masses of them would be saved if it wasn't for the fear of converting. I think many are missing it thinking the antichrist will be a Muslim. We shouldn't care what the Koran teaches. Scripture also calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt and it surely is today as it is the gay pride capital of the world now and the number one abortion country in the world "per capita".
So what do you think? I'm a partial-preterist/partial-futurist/premillennialist. These are my thougths.
Thank you Robert, that was very helpful also. Re: the coming Anti-Christ. One could argue to the actual commencement of the Great Tribulation that is to come upon the whole world ( Mt 24). One thought is that it commences at the revelation of Anti-Christ (2 Thes 2:3 ff); another, that it's only after he begins his onslaught of terror upon those who refuse him & his Mark; and yet another, at the pouring out of God's Wrath upon the Earth ( Rev 6 ff). So, I suppose the inclination to one of these positions primarily determines where one stands in his belief to the timing of the Rapture of the Church. And then of course, the much debated matter whether the Church experiences any or all of the above, with all the Scriptures given to support those views, comes into play. Whichever understanding, the importance of our readiness & longing for His Return is paramount.
Barnes is one of the really good commentaries too. I do believe there is one final antichrist. Full preterism rejects this idea but I see a double-fulfillment.
Some of the early church fathers did believe in some of the things we would call "the futurist view" today. For example, many believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. They didn't teach a pre-trib rapture though. And they definitely did not divide the church with unsaved Jews as most modern day pre-trib teachers do. In doing so, political zionism has flourished and many Christians in Palestine have been killed and maimed for life. According to Paul, once the New Covenant was confirmed ( Daniel 9:27) there is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK FOR WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST. To teach that some Jews would be saved by faith and WORKS during a period of time nullifies the finished work fo Christ on the cross and therefore is heresy. John Hagee is a big teacher on that and teaches DUAL Covenant Theology that teaches that. He threatened to sue Hank Hannegraff about 30 years ago for exposing his false teaching. A brother is not supposed to sue another brother so that didn't speak well of Hagee at all. He went way off the deep end and started to Judaize America after that.
Some pre-trib teachers try to site TWO of the many early church fathers saying they taught a pre-trib rapture in desperation to find someone pre-1830 but they horribly misquote what they really said and left out a portion of what they said; hopefully, not on purpose as that is very deceptive. Two guys that tried that over the last 5 years were Dr. Gene Kim and Dr. Ken Johnson. I fact-checked them to find out those two early church fathers were at best Mid-trib believers if you read the whole passage of their writings. Gene Kim tends to just parrot what he heard someone else teach without doing his homework. Ken Johnson I was concerned that he got it off. Maybe he never really looked it up either and was parroting one of his college teachers.
Robert, I spent some time this evening poring through your notes, even looking at other expositors' notes on this passage: chiefly Barnes' commentary. I can understand what you've said in light of the timeline given & its application to that period of Christ's coming, death & Titus' destruction of Jerusalem. It was very enlightening indeed as we are quite easily led to apply Dan 9:27 to the coming Anti-Christ given 2 Thes 2:4: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God". However, I can now see, with your help & instruction, that the actual setting of Daniel 9 is not of the future events (though, "even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (v 27b) can be seen to reference the Lord's Wrath yet to be revealed).
So, my thanks once again Robert for guiding me into the Light of this portion of Scripture.
God Bless. Check everything I said out. Check everything everyone says out. I've struggled with some fo those verses for a long time. it all makes sense now. Have a good one. Put a priority on winning souls. I think we are running out of time. I do believe there is a double-fulfillment with certain prophecies.
Thanks Robert for your lengthy, detailed response. I will come back to it, once I've given it the required consideration & allocating the time to do so. Appreciate your time in this.
So in summary, there was only 3 1/2 years left after Jesus died in the 490 year timeline. Question is, was it fulfilled in
1. Stephens' death (there is no way to prove historically or Biblically that Stephen was killed an exact 3 1/2 years after Jesus. But I am open to this idea.
2. This is my take. The Great Revolt War that lasted 3 1/2 years from the fall of 66 AD to the spring of 70 AD; the Stay of Execution extra 40 years. 40 means trials and temptations in the Bible. even the demonic Jooish Talmud admits to the scarlet wool never turning white again from 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalam in Yoma 39b. This was a supernatural sign that God did after the Day of atonement. It never happened again after Jesus' death. This proves the abominationS in Daniel 9:27 has to be what the killing of animals again, not what ONE man way in the future was going to do. Even building a third temple is an abomination. See what God did to this attempt in 363 AD. I fear so many Christians are heading for major judgment for sending money to have this done.
3. A way in the future 3 1/2 years. The new testament does talk about a 3 1/2 year period of tribulation in the future. Question is, is it a totally different 3 1/2 years than the 3 1/2 years that was left after Jesus' death?
I hold to #2 as it fits perfectly with Daniel 9:24-27. I hold to a 40 year gap from 486 1/2 years to the 490 years because the passage not only talks about the death of the Messiah but also the destruction of Jerusalem so it keeps with the context of the passage.
Great Tribulation coming upon the whole church will be 3 1/2 years as far as the persecution upon the entire church goes as many int he world have been under great tribulation since day one of being saved. Then God's wrath will be poured out with the plagues. Then Jesus the Son's wrath will be poured out at His return right after we are taking up.
c. All the things Jesus said in Matthew 20 thru 24 1/2 were fulfilled.
d. almost every single pre-1830 commentary I have read said this 'he' was Jesus or in John Gill's case, the Roman Army but Gill is off because they would have used the word 'they' (plural) instead of 'he' (singular) if it was more than one person. No references I could find up to date that teaches this 'he' is a future antichrist. It doesn't even make sense unless all grammar is thrown out. Check out what an antecedent is in grammar.
e. to turn abominationS (plural) in verse 27 into abomination (singular) is messing with God's Word. So what did the hierarchy of the religious leaders do after Jesus was crucified? they began animal sacrifice again thus mocking Jesus' death. This is the worst kind of abomination one can do, much worse than killing a pig on the altar as Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160 BC.
So in summary, there was only 3 1/2 years left after Jesus died in the 490 year timeline. Question is, was it fulfilled in
1. Stephens' death (there is no way to prove historically or Biblically that Stephen was killed an exact 3 1/2 years after Jesus. But I am open to this idea.
2. This is my take. The Great Revolt War that lasted 3 1/2 years from the fall of 66 AD to the spring of 70 AD; the Stay of Execution extra 40 years. 40 means trials and temptations in the Bible. even the demonic Jooish Talmud admits to the scarlet wool never turning white again from 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalam in Yoma 39b. This was a supernatural sign that God did after the Day of atonement. It never happened again after Jesus' death. This proves the abominationS in Daniel 9:27 has to be what the killing of animals again, not what ONE man way in the future was going to do. Even building a third temple is an abomination. See what God did to this attempt in 363 AD. I fear so many Christians are heading for major judgment for sending money to have this done.
2. Re: Daniel 9:26,27. I think I'm reading correctly from your comment that it is Jesus that is seen in this passage. We see the Messiah cut off (v26) & then "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city". Are you seeing Jesus here as well? Then who are the "people of Jesus (the prince)" that shall come to destroy? You said that "this has nothing to do with a future anti-Christ". And if v27 refers to Jesus, doesn't this aspect of 'confirming the covenant' resemble anti-Christ's plan to go against Israel & introduce his own abominations to desecrate the Temple?
1. Daniel 9:26) the people of the prince to come = General Titus of the Roman army. Titus historically became a prince over night when his father Vespasian was called back to Rome by the Roman Senate to become the new king (Caesar) and he was left in charge of the 66 AD to 70 AD siege of Jerusalem. This prince was not Jesus. Why did Daniel interject this prince into the passage? If it had not, all the things Jesus said in Matthew chapters 20, 21, 22 and 23 would not make much sense. I call the time period between Jesus' crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem (40 years) and extended time of the 490 year timeline and call it a Stay of Execution where God was giving those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah another chance with a total of 530 years from the beginning of the timeline.
2. If you read verse 26's AFTER, you find that the 'he' in verse 27 is talking about the Prince with a capital P. and thta Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week.
a. the first 49 years (7 weeks) were already fulfilled and then the next 434 years (62 weeks) so we are already into the 70th week without Messiah being cut off yet. So this 'he' has to be the Messiah.
b. Jesus made an end of the animal sacrifices proving further he was the 'he'.
Robert, your comment appeared in a new thread, so wasn't able to reference the original. Anyway, I'll try to comment at face value at what you've written here.
1. I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, believing that God's Wrath upon the Earth is directed solely to those deserving it (those living in wickedness & rejecting Christ). If (true) believers are also subject to that Wrath, then one has to wonder why we have to be judged for our sins again. I know we suffer tribulation throughout our earthly lives (as even Jesus warned), but we are dealing with a special occasion of God's Anger upon all godless.
2. Re: Dan 9:26,27. I think I'm reading correctly from your comment that it is Jesus that is seen in this passage. We see the Messiah cut off (v26) & then "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city". Are you seeing Jesus here as well? Then who are the "people of Jesus (the prince)" that shall come to destroy? You said that "this has nothing to do with a future anti-Christ". And if v27 refers to Jesus, doesn't this aspect of 'confirming the covenant' resemble anti-Christ's plan to go against Israel & introduce his own abominations to desecrate the Temple?
3. I understand your typology of Egypt & Israelites living there in spite of the plagues. However, is this a correct analogy? In the case of Egypt, they indeed suffered with the various plagues, but they continued on as a nation, except for the loss of some life & death of their first born children & animals. It was indeed God's Wrath but Pharaoh finally relented. The picture of the loss of life & destruction of the land bears little resemblance to what the Great Tribulation will accomplish in the future. I liken it to resembling the full devastation of the Flood or of Sodom & Gomorrah where all life was annihilated except for those righteous ones.
If you have a King James Version Bible WITH the center of the page reference columns; which reference to other Bible passages, BETWEEN Genesis verse 1 and 2,
You will begin to see a more complete explanation of Pre-Adam.
Satan was turned into a serpent.
The 1/3 of the created angels were thrown out of Heaven too. They had bodies at that time, which is how they "inter married" with the descendants of Adam (Not Seth).
All that happened after verse 1-2. It's a very intricate study. The column references in each location you go to, refer to others.
I'm going to flip on ahead and say after the flood, the evil angels died of drowning and lost their bodies. They now prowl the earth as demons; millions or billions, I don't know. They are called INHABITANTS in the scriptures.
I think Jesus is coming back real soon, so I don't think there's time to tear through Genesis many more times. I keep telling myself what does that have to do with being saved and born again? It's all in scripture.
Note: the earth is not thousands of years old; science has discovered differently. It's millions or even older.
Stay focused on New Jerusalem. That's our future. Signs of the Times, as Jesus said: Matthew 24.
I will say for the 32nd time, there are people in the prayer request room who need prayer. We don't get Crowns for weariness of much study.
I have been real busy. You sound kind of post-trib or pre-wrath to me when you mentioned God's wrath in your comment. There is no reason to put a gap in 1st Thess. 4:13-18 just because harpazo and parousia are in verses 15 and 17. The Bible doesn't do that so we shouldn't do that. It seems to me that the rapture is THAT particular resurrection whether you want to believe in more than one. Yes, there is no gap in that passage just like there is no gap in Genesis 1:1 and verse 2 thta some scholars magically put in there ignoring grammar, context and the word yom.
I believe it is this way.
1. Satan pours out his wrath for 3 1/2 years based on Revelation stating a 3 1/2 year time period, not a 7 year that supposedly wasn't fulfilled in Daniel 9:24 - 27 because the Bible clearly states that Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week if you follow the antecedent of 'he' in verse 27 as it points to Matthew, 23's curse. This is why verse 27 in Daniel 9 doesn't say abomination but plural abominationS. This verse has nothing to do with a future antichrist but is Jesus Himself as that is what the passage is about and fulfills all the warnings of Matthew 20, 21, 22, and 23.The abominationS is the return to animal sacrifice for 40 years after Jesus died.
2. God pours out his wrath with plagues for an indeterminate amount of time. We know ONE plague lasts 5 months alone so my guess is at least a few years to ten or more. The Bible doesn't state either way. My question for you here is since this is typology of the time God brought Israel out of Egypt, 1. where were the children of Israel at the time of the plagues?, Answer: still in Egypt and Egypt is a type of the world.
3. Grapes of WRATH. THE RETURN OF JESUS. This wrath really is the beginning of judgment where the wicked are taken first as in the days of Noah.
If Gen 10:25 relates to verse 32, then it could also mean that at that time after Noah, his sons & families spread to other parts of the Earth & hence the Earth was divided into various nations.
Jerry, some believe the continents were divided in the days of Peleg. Look into "continental drift" for a scientific explanation of what might have been. Some claim there was once a super continent called Pangea. The the continents broke apart and are moving away from each other. That is what some believe involving tectonic plates movement.
I am not sure I believe all that, as it is just a theory since no one was there who is alive today.
Robert, I agree with your understanding of 'Church'. I had mentioned a similar definition to another enquirer previously.
1. "The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology." I don't know about this type of theology, but I'm clear that the Gospel was never preached to A & E. If you refer to Gen 3:15, this was prophecy about what would happen in the future (Christ, Satan, the Cross) & not the Gospel to save them. Prophecy, as you know, can also bring some dire news, but the Gospel only gave both the news & the way to be saved.
2. "No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under." I had made my comment on this passage in my page 2.
Good Morning Chris. The word ekklesia that we use in the New Testament and put the word CHURCH in our English Bibles also means ASSEMBLY or CONGREGATION as you can see below. It would have been better translated as assembly or congregation which is what the people of God in the old Testament were always called.
G1577
ekklesia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115
did not the gospel already go to Israel already and first at that?
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God elected or CALLED Abraham and his descendents to be the preachers but they failed during the time of Christ and God gave the kingdom to another nation- a heathen pagan Gentile nation. No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
G1484 (greek for NATION)
ethnos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usuall
Alex on matthew 13 Jesus said your hearts are the good ground where that good seed will be sown,Now under the new covenant the perfect Garden is our hearts IMPLING OUR SPIRITS thus the tree of life will grow in our hearts our spirits etc. the field is the World,That woman in rev 12 aka as the Church i.e th Church is gona have a baby, we cannot enter the kingdom without this spritual baby which is the H.G..our new inner innerman Thats y we have to know him thats when the good seed will be sown in our hearts and minds our spirits via his seed the word initiating a birth of Christ in us aka as the children of the kingdom, unless ya receive the kingdom as a lil child ( a birth ) you will in no wise enter there in.Its the H.G that is the kingdom Child, we are just a joint heir th bride but its the H.G that gets all the Glory as he is in rank with God. Our Glory is in the fact that the KINGDOM IS GONNA BE WITH IN US and made 1 with us at the marriage. Its the H.G. that comes in his name. In my NAME implies he is the father of the H.G. and Whosoever receives one such child in my NAME RECEIVES ME thus Jesus is the father of the H.G. Thats y he refers to the H.G as the Promise thus Christ is the father of the H.G. THAT WAS THE GREAT PROMISE that Christ wd be multiplied as the Stars of heaven thus the H.G is his seed that heavenly seed that is gonna crush satans head ( mans carnal mind is satans head ) thats y he refered to peter as satan.This matt 13 is about a seed coming that is gonna bring in a Perfect being born in our hearts. When that which is PERFECT is come that which is done in parts will be done away with which is modern day Christianity that answers to the image in Dan 2.THE Babes and sucklings is that which is Perfect that is coming. Outa of the mouths of babes and suckling thou has PERFECTED PRAISE. They come outta of the WORD that Stone cut without hands the good seed. Paul said when that which is Perfect is come,That which is done in Parts will be done away.
Just further comments to your reply to my first page: I believe in a pre-Trib. Rapture, in case that wasn't clear in my statements. However, I also feel that some good cases are there to support the other views, so I'm not dogmatic about this as I am about other 'Truths'.
1. Yes, I'm aware of our woes: the normal woes (some from the Enemy), the discipline of God to His children, & the Great Wrath of God upon the world. My examples of the saving of Noah & the children of Israel, were to show that God removes His children when His Anger is poured upon the world. You can call it 'protected' from His Wrath & as I see it both 'protected' & 'removal' are signified here.
2. True, many believers (& Israel) suffered terribly over the centuries & are still experiencing suffering, torture & martyrdom today, but this is not God's Wrath. This can come to any of us, especially to those "who live godly in Christ Jesus".
3. Again True, Harpazo & Parousia are together in the same verse, but the problem is that one looks at Harpazo as part of Christ's Second Coming & the other, as part of Christ's Coming, pre-Trib, for His Saints. Then the question: when do the dead in Christ rise? How many resurrections are there? Again, if there are two (post Christ), then does the Rapture make it a third resurrection? No, the Rapture is still part of the Mystery of the Coming of Christ: that this coming would be for His Church to remove them from the Great Wrath of God. No child of God is seen as having to experience God's Great Wrath - indeed, why should we suffer if we are His Children? But if we do wrong then we can expect His chastening ( Heb 12:5-11), but not to be a part of His Anger upon the world of unbelievers. This wouldn't make sense.
4. I agree, the word 'Remain' could be used as 'Survive' the Tribulation. However, the same could be said, if God's Wrath is never poured upon His own, then the remaining ones are those living & waiting during the 'Great Translation'.
Mt 21:43. I've never associated this Scripture to the preaching of the Gospel first to Jerusalem & Judea. The Gospel was first to be brought to them as it should (God's care & concern for His people, the Jew, as well as preaching at home before radiating the Word to other nations). But that "the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", I understand that Israel was privileged to be God's chosen & to receive His Promises, but in their rejection ( Mt 31:33-41), their inheritance (the Kingdom of God) would no longer be their expectation, but to the nations that bring Him His fruits, unlike the husbandmen (in the parable) who did wickedly.
So the 'mystery' I refer to (unless it can be correctly shown in the OT), is something that was not revealed (whether in whole or in part), but which Paul has now shown to the Church. He may have received this revelation during his time in Arabia ( Gal 1:17), we're not sure. Nevertheless, this is something 'special' that is to happen to the Church that was unknown earlier, to which every believer can anticipate & longingly wait for.
Bob, I take your point that in the case of Abraham, conversion of Gentiles in Esther's day, Laban & other numerous examples, there is a clear assimilation of Gentiles into Jewish lineage. However, when I refer to Paul's use of the word 'Mystery', this is not what I see. I see that he speaks only of the fact that both Jew & Gentile would one day be brought as one, as Christ's Church. We can't presume that the OT Scriptures about Gentile assimilation has any reference to the Church, even looking forward. Is there any OT Scripture that reveals this fact that Jew (& Gentile incorporation into Jewish lineage) would one day belong to the Church - that they should wait for the 'New Covenant' that would allow for their descendants to be an equal part of Christ's Church? The closest one is Jer 31:31-34 (cf Heb 8:8-11), but this only speaks of them entering into a New Covenant with the LORD, but not of the 'mystery' of incorporation into the Church. The revelation of Jesus through over 300 prophecies is not the mystery I refer to here.
I know what race Jesus was and I read it in my bible I was just making a point I love those of all races and refuse to be called racist thank u very much
The mystery was revealed throughout the whole Old Testament when God spoke through the prophets of the Gentiles being saved. As a matter of fact Abraham was a Gentile. Gentiles have always been grafted in even under the old covenant from the time of Egypt at the very beginning, to the time of Esther when many converted to following the God fo the Jews, and many other passages. Always been ONE people. Only difference is they had to wait for the new covenant to begin IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME. Abraham was of Syrian descent as he was a close cousin of "Laban the Syrian".
Was not Jesus revealed tot he Jews FIRST thus fulfilling over 300 prophecies? To fulfill 8 prophecies is a mathematical improbability according tot he mathematicians would be like picking the right atom out of the entire universe and when you bump that up to 9 it most likely doubles. We are talking 300 to 330 fulfilled prophecies.
Jews have been being saved and been preached to for 2,000 years. Always ONE people.
In Romans Paul says only a remnant will be saved when he quotes Isaiah and Revelation 11 confirms that only a remnant give glory to God at the time of the 7th trumpet. It doesn't say they got saved but only that they give glory to God. That is who I think will repopulate the planet for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. The modern Sanhedrin are pushing the noah hide laws right now upon all the Gentiles and they are the only people that will be exempt from having to abide by them. They are talmudic laws and not Biblical at all.
If the Bible says to preach to Jerusalem and Judea first, how do you interpret Matthew 21:43?
YOU: Actually, there are various aspects from the Word, which compel me to believe that there will be a removal of His people first before the Anger of the Lord is poured out. Most of these you will be aware of:
ME: Sure your not pre-wrath? Tribulation of Satan which we are promised throughout the gospels and God's wrath on the wicked are two different things.
YOU: a. Genesis 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.
ME: They were not removed from the earth but protected.
YOU: b. Exodus 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.
ME: Your sounding pre-wrath rapture to me.
YOU: c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
ME: They and individuals also suffered for no good reason at all. Joseph suffered slavery and betrayed by brothers but God used it for His glory just one of many examples.Who am I to be better than Polycarp, John's disciple, who was tortured before being burned alive. Or James, or John the Baptist or all of the prophets who served God more than any of us ever will or the apostles who were martyred or John who was boiled but survived. I only wish pre-trib was true. Paul puts the harpazo AFTER the dead in Christ rise whcih is the resurrection and RIGHT WITH the parousia (physical return of the Lord).That word UNTO is very important in that passage. When we leave every word in there and don't add any words the passage is very clear. The word REMAIN means SURVIVE also.Survive what if we are gone? I had a woman tell me that if the pre-trib rapture isn't true than Jesus is a liar and no better than the devil but there are many clear verses that point to it not being true. Doctrine is based on clear verses, not unclear verses.Did you know Dr. Thomas Ice is trying to make the word apostasia a rapture word now? It is always used as ONE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH. He knows there isn't one clear verse proving what he teaches
Correct. Jesus is God. Merely was clothed in flesh; hence the phrase, GOD INCARNATE (God in the flesh). Color and race mean nothing to God. Joseph married an Egyptian and had two half-breed children Manasseh and Ephraim. The children of Israel came out of Egypt a mixed people from the very beginning.
There has always only been ONE people of God. This is exactly why I left pre-trib rapture teaching. It teaches more than one gospel, more than ONE way to be saved, and more than ONE people.
Yet the Bible teaches, there is ONE people of God in both the Old and New Testament.
One faith.
One Lord.
One baptism.
What's interesting is there is more Jewish blood in Palestine proven with TWO different DNA testings by two different scientists of Jewish descent yet the pre-tribbers are unaware of so many things and so many have hatred in their hearts for these people which is murder. I can't be a part of that body of Christ as it is cancerous.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident,
knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Comment: All born again believers will be caught up to Jesus, in the clouds; dead or alive.
Don't bet any big money on what you said about the continuing struggle of religious leaders to attain prestige and dominance over all those who ARE LEFT BEHIND.
There are plenty of history pages on this website to sift through about comments On After the Caught Up. It will be a massive display of Game of Thrones; except it will not be a game! There will be a person who will rise who will fix all the problems of the chaos LEFT BEHIND. Who will seem so competent that people will worship him as the savior of Peace! One by one, he will eradicate the man made thrones, until he alone is supreme Leader. ANTICHRIST. And then the Tribulation. Either you take His Mark and worship him or he will take your head off your body.
All those who die will be held for the Great White Throne Judgement. Google that.
Living people who manage to stay alive can still confess Jesus as Lord and go to heaven but it's going to be hard to evade being murdered by Antichrist, before then. Do not recant your vow to Jesus.
Earth will BURN. 2 Peter 3:7-10
No one can stop scripture from happening!!
I ahve certain thoughts on the matter.
Those who take the mark of course are taken first in Matthew 24 (one is taken and one is left). Of course it was the wicked that were taken "as in the days of Noah".
We will get our glorified bodies before the millennium so it won't be us.
I know the modern Sanhedrin is pushing for worldwide Noahide Laws on ONLY Gentiles so if there is a mark of the beast connected to the Noahide Laws and that is where the New World Order is going, then they will be exempt. What is interesting is the Jewish Noahide laws call for beheading of idolators and their rabbis say Christians are the greatest idolators because we practice "partnering" where we make Jesus equal to the Father as we believe in the trinity.
Another possibility is those that haven't met the age of accountability.
Some think aborted babies will be sent back to earth to be tested. That sounds a little weird but someone has to repopulate the earth.
What is your take on this?
I lean heavily on the Noahide Laws as some Christians have already given themselves over to it, plus the huge growth of the Hebrew Roots Movement where some have even converted to Judaism now and left the Lord ( Hebrews 6). You also have the huge uprising of the Black Israelite cults like HOI, SICARII, GMS, ETC.
God is saving Muslims and masses of them would be saved if it wasn't for the fear of converting. I think many are missing it thinking the antichrist will be a Muslim. We shouldn't care what the Koran teaches. Scripture also calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt and it surely is today as it is the gay pride capital of the world now and the number one abortion country in the world "per capita".
So what do you think? I'm a partial-preterist/partial-futurist/premillennialist. These are my thougths.
Some of the early church fathers did believe in some of the things we would call "the futurist view" today. For example, many believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. They didn't teach a pre-trib rapture though. And they definitely did not divide the church with unsaved Jews as most modern day pre-trib teachers do. In doing so, political zionism has flourished and many Christians in Palestine have been killed and maimed for life. According to Paul, once the New Covenant was confirmed ( Daniel 9:27) there is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK FOR WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST. To teach that some Jews would be saved by faith and WORKS during a period of time nullifies the finished work fo Christ on the cross and therefore is heresy. John Hagee is a big teacher on that and teaches DUAL Covenant Theology that teaches that. He threatened to sue Hank Hannegraff about 30 years ago for exposing his false teaching. A brother is not supposed to sue another brother so that didn't speak well of Hagee at all. He went way off the deep end and started to Judaize America after that.
Some pre-trib teachers try to site TWO of the many early church fathers saying they taught a pre-trib rapture in desperation to find someone pre-1830 but they horribly misquote what they really said and left out a portion of what they said; hopefully, not on purpose as that is very deceptive. Two guys that tried that over the last 5 years were Dr. Gene Kim and Dr. Ken Johnson. I fact-checked them to find out those two early church fathers were at best Mid-trib believers if you read the whole passage of their writings. Gene Kim tends to just parrot what he heard someone else teach without doing his homework. Ken Johnson I was concerned that he got it off. Maybe he never really looked it up either and was parroting one of his college teachers.
So, my thanks once again Robert for guiding me into the Light of this portion of Scripture.
1. Stephens' death (there is no way to prove historically or Biblically that Stephen was killed an exact 3 1/2 years after Jesus. But I am open to this idea.
2. This is my take. The Great Revolt War that lasted 3 1/2 years from the fall of 66 AD to the spring of 70 AD; the Stay of Execution extra 40 years. 40 means trials and temptations in the Bible. even the demonic Jooish Talmud admits to the scarlet wool never turning white again from 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalam in Yoma 39b. This was a supernatural sign that God did after the Day of atonement. It never happened again after Jesus' death. This proves the abominationS in Daniel 9:27 has to be what the killing of animals again, not what ONE man way in the future was going to do. Even building a third temple is an abomination. See what God did to this attempt in 363 AD. I fear so many Christians are heading for major judgment for sending money to have this done.
3. A way in the future 3 1/2 years. The new testament does talk about a 3 1/2 year period of tribulation in the future. Question is, is it a totally different 3 1/2 years than the 3 1/2 years that was left after Jesus' death?
I hold to #2 as it fits perfectly with Daniel 9:24-27. I hold to a 40 year gap from 486 1/2 years to the 490 years because the passage not only talks about the death of the Messiah but also the destruction of Jerusalem so it keeps with the context of the passage.
Great Tribulation coming upon the whole church will be 3 1/2 years as far as the persecution upon the entire church goes as many int he world have been under great tribulation since day one of being saved. Then God's wrath will be poured out with the plagues. Then Jesus the Son's wrath will be poured out at His return right after we are taking up.
How I see it.
c. All the things Jesus said in Matthew 20 thru 24 1/2 were fulfilled.
d. almost every single pre-1830 commentary I have read said this 'he' was Jesus or in John Gill's case, the Roman Army but Gill is off because they would have used the word 'they' (plural) instead of 'he' (singular) if it was more than one person. No references I could find up to date that teaches this 'he' is a future antichrist. It doesn't even make sense unless all grammar is thrown out. Check out what an antecedent is in grammar.
e. to turn abominationS (plural) in verse 27 into abomination (singular) is messing with God's Word. So what did the hierarchy of the religious leaders do after Jesus was crucified? they began animal sacrifice again thus mocking Jesus' death. This is the worst kind of abomination one can do, much worse than killing a pig on the altar as Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160 BC.
So in summary, there was only 3 1/2 years left after Jesus died in the 490 year timeline. Question is, was it fulfilled in
1. Stephens' death (there is no way to prove historically or Biblically that Stephen was killed an exact 3 1/2 years after Jesus. But I am open to this idea.
2. This is my take. The Great Revolt War that lasted 3 1/2 years from the fall of 66 AD to the spring of 70 AD; the Stay of Execution extra 40 years. 40 means trials and temptations in the Bible. even the demonic Jooish Talmud admits to the scarlet wool never turning white again from 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalam in Yoma 39b. This was a supernatural sign that God did after the Day of atonement. It never happened again after Jesus' death. This proves the abominationS in Daniel 9:27 has to be what the killing of animals again, not what ONE man way in the future was going to do. Even building a third temple is an abomination. See what God did to this attempt in 363 AD. I fear so many Christians are heading for major judgment for sending money to have this done.
3. see next post.
2. Re: Daniel 9:26,27. I think I'm reading correctly from your comment that it is Jesus that is seen in this passage. We see the Messiah cut off (v26) & then "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city". Are you seeing Jesus here as well? Then who are the "people of Jesus (the prince)" that shall come to destroy? You said that "this has nothing to do with a future anti-Christ". And if v27 refers to Jesus, doesn't this aspect of 'confirming the covenant' resemble anti-Christ's plan to go against Israel & introduce his own abominations to desecrate the Temple?
1. Daniel 9:26) the people of the prince to come = General Titus of the Roman army. Titus historically became a prince over night when his father Vespasian was called back to Rome by the Roman Senate to become the new king (Caesar) and he was left in charge of the 66 AD to 70 AD siege of Jerusalem. This prince was not Jesus. Why did Daniel interject this prince into the passage? If it had not, all the things Jesus said in Matthew chapters 20, 21, 22 and 23 would not make much sense. I call the time period between Jesus' crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem (40 years) and extended time of the 490 year timeline and call it a Stay of Execution where God was giving those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah another chance with a total of 530 years from the beginning of the timeline.
2. If you read verse 26's AFTER, you find that the 'he' in verse 27 is talking about the Prince with a capital P. and thta Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week.
a. the first 49 years (7 weeks) were already fulfilled and then the next 434 years (62 weeks) so we are already into the 70th week without Messiah being cut off yet. So this 'he' has to be the Messiah.
b. Jesus made an end of the animal sacrifices proving further he was the 'he'.
1. I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, believing that God's Wrath upon the Earth is directed solely to those deserving it (those living in wickedness & rejecting Christ). If (true) believers are also subject to that Wrath, then one has to wonder why we have to be judged for our sins again. I know we suffer tribulation throughout our earthly lives (as even Jesus warned), but we are dealing with a special occasion of God's Anger upon all godless.
2. Re: Dan 9:26,27. I think I'm reading correctly from your comment that it is Jesus that is seen in this passage. We see the Messiah cut off (v26) & then "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city". Are you seeing Jesus here as well? Then who are the "people of Jesus (the prince)" that shall come to destroy? You said that "this has nothing to do with a future anti-Christ". And if v27 refers to Jesus, doesn't this aspect of 'confirming the covenant' resemble anti-Christ's plan to go against Israel & introduce his own abominations to desecrate the Temple?
3. I understand your typology of Egypt & Israelites living there in spite of the plagues. However, is this a correct analogy? In the case of Egypt, they indeed suffered with the various plagues, but they continued on as a nation, except for the loss of some life & death of their first born children & animals. It was indeed God's Wrath but Pharaoh finally relented. The picture of the loss of life & destruction of the land bears little resemblance to what the Great Tribulation will accomplish in the future. I liken it to resembling the full devastation of the Flood or of Sodom & Gomorrah where all life was annihilated except for those righteous ones.
You will begin to see a more complete explanation of Pre-Adam.
Satan was turned into a serpent.
The 1/3 of the created angels were thrown out of Heaven too. They had bodies at that time, which is how they "inter married" with the descendants of Adam (Not Seth).
All that happened after verse 1-2. It's a very intricate study. The column references in each location you go to, refer to others.
I'm going to flip on ahead and say after the flood, the evil angels died of drowning and lost their bodies. They now prowl the earth as demons; millions or billions, I don't know. They are called INHABITANTS in the scriptures.
I think Jesus is coming back real soon, so I don't think there's time to tear through Genesis many more times. I keep telling myself what does that have to do with being saved and born again? It's all in scripture.
Note: the earth is not thousands of years old; science has discovered differently. It's millions or even older.
Stay focused on New Jerusalem. That's our future. Signs of the Times, as Jesus said: Matthew 24.
I will say for the 32nd time, there are people in the prayer request room who need prayer. We don't get Crowns for weariness of much study.
I have been real busy. You sound kind of post-trib or pre-wrath to me when you mentioned God's wrath in your comment. There is no reason to put a gap in 1st Thess. 4:13-18 just because harpazo and parousia are in verses 15 and 17. The Bible doesn't do that so we shouldn't do that. It seems to me that the rapture is THAT particular resurrection whether you want to believe in more than one. Yes, there is no gap in that passage just like there is no gap in Genesis 1:1 and verse 2 thta some scholars magically put in there ignoring grammar, context and the word yom.
I believe it is this way.
1. Satan pours out his wrath for 3 1/2 years based on Revelation stating a 3 1/2 year time period, not a 7 year that supposedly wasn't fulfilled in Daniel 9:24 - 27 because the Bible clearly states that Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week if you follow the antecedent of 'he' in verse 27 as it points to Matthew, 23's curse. This is why verse 27 in Daniel 9 doesn't say abomination but plural abominationS. This verse has nothing to do with a future antichrist but is Jesus Himself as that is what the passage is about and fulfills all the warnings of Matthew 20, 21, 22, and 23.The abominationS is the return to animal sacrifice for 40 years after Jesus died.
2. God pours out his wrath with plagues for an indeterminate amount of time. We know ONE plague lasts 5 months alone so my guess is at least a few years to ten or more. The Bible doesn't state either way. My question for you here is since this is typology of the time God brought Israel out of Egypt, 1. where were the children of Israel at the time of the plagues?, Answer: still in Egypt and Egypt is a type of the world.
3. Grapes of WRATH. THE RETURN OF JESUS. This wrath really is the beginning of judgment where the wicked are taken first as in the days of Noah.
God Bless!
I am not sure I believe all that, as it is just a theory since no one was there who is alive today.
1. "The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology." I don't know about this type of theology, but I'm clear that the Gospel was never preached to A & E. If you refer to Gen 3:15, this was prophecy about what would happen in the future (Christ, Satan, the Cross) & not the Gospel to save them. Prophecy, as you know, can also bring some dire news, but the Gospel only gave both the news & the way to be saved.
2. "No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under." I had made my comment on this passage in my page 2.
G1577
ekklesia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115
did not the gospel already go to Israel already and first at that?
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God elected or CALLED Abraham and his descendents to be the preachers but they failed during the time of Christ and God gave the kingdom to another nation- a heathen pagan Gentile nation. No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
G1484 (greek for NATION)
ethnos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usuall
The Godhead decided to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life, because they would live eternally in their disobedient, fallen state.
The Tree of Life is found residing in Revelation 22:2
Jesus knee.
Dable with Alchemists and Barristers and what Book
1. Yes, I'm aware of our woes: the normal woes (some from the Enemy), the discipline of God to His children, & the Great Wrath of God upon the world. My examples of the saving of Noah & the children of Israel, were to show that God removes His children when His Anger is poured upon the world. You can call it 'protected' from His Wrath & as I see it both 'protected' & 'removal' are signified here.
2. True, many believers (& Israel) suffered terribly over the centuries & are still experiencing suffering, torture & martyrdom today, but this is not God's Wrath. This can come to any of us, especially to those "who live godly in Christ Jesus".
3. Again True, Harpazo & Parousia are together in the same verse, but the problem is that one looks at Harpazo as part of Christ's Second Coming & the other, as part of Christ's Coming, pre-Trib, for His Saints. Then the question: when do the dead in Christ rise? How many resurrections are there? Again, if there are two (post Christ), then does the Rapture make it a third resurrection? No, the Rapture is still part of the Mystery of the Coming of Christ: that this coming would be for His Church to remove them from the Great Wrath of God. No child of God is seen as having to experience God's Great Wrath - indeed, why should we suffer if we are His Children? But if we do wrong then we can expect His chastening ( Heb 12:5-11), but not to be a part of His Anger upon the world of unbelievers. This wouldn't make sense.
4. I agree, the word 'Remain' could be used as 'Survive' the Tribulation. However, the same could be said, if God's Wrath is never poured upon His own, then the remaining ones are those living & waiting during the 'Great Translation'.
Mt 21:43. I've never associated this Scripture to the preaching of the Gospel first to Jerusalem & Judea. The Gospel was first to be brought to them as it should (God's care & concern for His people, the Jew, as well as preaching at home before radiating the Word to other nations). But that "the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", I understand that Israel was privileged to be God's chosen & to receive His Promises, but in their rejection ( Mt 31:33-41), their inheritance (the Kingdom of God) would no longer be their expectation, but to the nations that bring Him His fruits, unlike the husbandmen (in the parable) who did wickedly.
So the 'mystery' I refer to (unless it can be correctly shown in the OT), is something that was not revealed (whether in whole or in part), but which Paul has now shown to the Church. He may have received this revelation during his time in Arabia ( Gal 1:17), we're not sure. Nevertheless, this is something 'special' that is to happen to the Church that was unknown earlier, to which every believer can anticipate & longingly wait for.
Bob, I take your point that in the case of Abraham, conversion of Gentiles in Esther's day, Laban & other numerous examples, there is a clear assimilation of Gentiles into Jewish lineage. However, when I refer to Paul's use of the word 'Mystery', this is not what I see. I see that he speaks only of the fact that both Jew & Gentile would one day be brought as one, as Christ's Church. We can't presume that the OT Scriptures about Gentile assimilation has any reference to the Church, even looking forward. Is there any OT Scripture that reveals this fact that Jew (& Gentile incorporation into Jewish lineage) would one day belong to the Church - that they should wait for the 'New Covenant' that would allow for their descendants to be an equal part of Christ's Church? The closest one is Jer 31:31-34 (cf Heb 8:8-11), but this only speaks of them entering into a New Covenant with the LORD, but not of the 'mystery' of incorporation into the Church. The revelation of Jesus through over 300 prophecies is not the mystery I refer to here.
Was not Jesus revealed tot he Jews FIRST thus fulfilling over 300 prophecies? To fulfill 8 prophecies is a mathematical improbability according tot he mathematicians would be like picking the right atom out of the entire universe and when you bump that up to 9 it most likely doubles. We are talking 300 to 330 fulfilled prophecies.
Jews have been being saved and been preached to for 2,000 years. Always ONE people.
In Romans Paul says only a remnant will be saved when he quotes Isaiah and Revelation 11 confirms that only a remnant give glory to God at the time of the 7th trumpet. It doesn't say they got saved but only that they give glory to God. That is who I think will repopulate the planet for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. The modern Sanhedrin are pushing the noah hide laws right now upon all the Gentiles and they are the only people that will be exempt from having to abide by them. They are talmudic laws and not Biblical at all.
If the Bible says to preach to Jerusalem and Judea first, how do you interpret Matthew 21:43?
ME: Sure your not pre-wrath? Tribulation of Satan which we are promised throughout the gospels and God's wrath on the wicked are two different things.
YOU: a. Genesis 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.
ME: They were not removed from the earth but protected.
YOU: b. Exodus 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.
ME: Your sounding pre-wrath rapture to me.
YOU: c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
ME: They and individuals also suffered for no good reason at all. Joseph suffered slavery and betrayed by brothers but God used it for His glory just one of many examples.Who am I to be better than Polycarp, John's disciple, who was tortured before being burned alive. Or James, or John the Baptist or all of the prophets who served God more than any of us ever will or the apostles who were martyred or John who was boiled but survived. I only wish pre-trib was true. Paul puts the harpazo AFTER the dead in Christ rise whcih is the resurrection and RIGHT WITH the parousia (physical return of the Lord).That word UNTO is very important in that passage. When we leave every word in there and don't add any words the passage is very clear. The word REMAIN means SURVIVE also.Survive what if we are gone? I had a woman tell me that if the pre-trib rapture isn't true than Jesus is a liar and no better than the devil but there are many clear verses that point to it not being true. Doctrine is based on clear verses, not unclear verses.Did you know Dr. Thomas Ice is trying to make the word apostasia a rapture word now? It is always used as ONE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH. He knows there isn't one clear verse proving what he teaches
There has always only been ONE people of God. This is exactly why I left pre-trib rapture teaching. It teaches more than one gospel, more than ONE way to be saved, and more than ONE people.
Yet the Bible teaches, there is ONE people of God in both the Old and New Testament.
One faith.
One Lord.
One baptism.
What's interesting is there is more Jewish blood in Palestine proven with TWO different DNA testings by two different scientists of Jewish descent yet the pre-tribbers are unaware of so many things and so many have hatred in their hearts for these people which is murder. I can't be a part of that body of Christ as it is cancerous.