Why, in 26, did God refer to the creation of man as follows: Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likenes...........& then in 27 says: "So God created man in HIS image, in the image of God.........
I am unclear as to whether it is an effort by a singular God or some type of reference to a group effort. Thak you you for providing clarity on this juxtaposition.
I used to listened to HWA on The World Tomorrow occasionally as a boy. Interesting. Just didn't square with The Bible.
Interestingly, Jews have maintained their identity over the millennia. There were Jews hearing Peter's sermon from all over the world
"Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Act 2:9-11
These were very probably Jews who never returned after the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Some of those, perhaps most, took The Gospel back to their homes as New Covenant believers.
Jews are back in Israel, but not in belief. There's little doubt that God has His hand of protection on this little foothold that will, when they turn to God, stretch from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jer 31:33-34
God bless you Skip. Your work is excellent, unexpected and means a lot to me, thank you. Let me give you my brief run down to round things off:
-The house of Israel was taken into Assyrian captivity 721 BC (-2520 years) = 1800, at the height of the British empire = Ephraim, who Jacob said would come 1st. His older brother Manasseh (America) came out of Ephraim as God promised. These 2 boys, US/UK, are the lead tribes from the house of Israel, the birthright people from Gen 48. They became "a nation and a company of nations" (UK), and a single "Great nation" (US).
-The house of Judah was taken into Babylonian captivity 604 BC (-2520 years) = 1917, on the EXACT day and hour the Balfour declaration was signed, 11/2/1917!!! How is that for prophesy unfolding?
There is a book called "United States and Great Britain in Prophesy" by Herbert Armstrong. It was the single most fascinating book I've read that uses the Bible to define itself. That's how I became interested in the prophets.
Answer my questions and I'll answer yours. Only 1 person here has knowledge of what I say. You want me to tell you sweet things, sweet things, now that was promised to me. Lord don't worry, you'll find out anyway, God sure gonna give you everything some day. But till the end I'm worried that my companions just can't seem to find their way.
I watched a discussion (2:35:43, I have no time for 10+ hours of Hovind) between Kent Hovind and Hugh Ross a Christian astrophysicist, old earth, day-age advocate hosted by John Ankerberg.
This way you can hear an opinion and a counter argument side by side, if you're interested.
One of the topics they discussed had to do with entropy and the second law of thermodynamics with respect to death before The Fall or not.
Nothing there to change my mind. Having been a staunch YEC for decades, I have, fairly recently (within the past 30 years, for a 79 year old), adopted OEC. I can debate this with a YEC, but I'd rather discuss topics that are more substantive.
I just wanted to point out that OEC does not automatically equate to evolutionist.
This is interesting. In 606BC the Jewish nation lost it's independence and never regained it until May 14, 1948.
Ezekiel prophesied 430 days or years against Jerusalem. Jerusalem fell in 587BC and was never occupied again as a free nation until June 7, 1967.
The difference is 6963 days, very close to the difference between 606 & 587BC!
Taking Ezekiel's 430 days of years and subtracting the 70 served in Babylon, leaves 360 years. Because of their stubbornness (actually 4 times in Lev 26:18, 21, 23-24, 27-28) their punishment is 7 times as much. At 360 days per prophetic year:
360 years x 7 x 360 days per year = 907,200 days.
Using the keisan cassio calculator:
subtracting 907,200 days from May 14, 1948 = July 21, 537BC.
subtract 70 prophetic years, 25,200 days = July 24, 606BC, when the captivity began.
"And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" Luk 21:7
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Luk 21:24
"And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:29-32
Ezekiel 21:10 "It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree."
God has a sense of humor in preparation for Babylon's desolation. I hope God plucks every tree in America by the roots.
-What did God mean when He said He would punish both houses of Israel (house of Israel & house of Judah) 7 times if they did not obey? Leviticus 26:18 "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." What does that prophesy have to do with a split Israel?
-What was the blessings Jacob laid upon the sons of Joseph in Gen 48?
-What nations did Ephraim & Manasseh & Judah become?
-Who are the birthright people?
-When did the house of Israel go into captivity?
-When did the house of Judah go into captivity?
Knowing the answers will reveal who these people are today.
It's enlightening to see prophesy unfold, and know it.
Hey, Skip this is Ron I am new to this site, I love the peaceful conversations that are on this site that you don't find on many others but sometimes it is hard to know who is talking to who. When you click on view thread some post does not go with the conversations in the thread. If your reply was to me, I don't quite understand your post, I don't believe I made any remarks of OEC or did I say you were a Darwinian evolutionist. I thought this post started with 24 hour days or 1000 year days so I don't feel I changed the subject. Many fill the earth is older than the time calculated from Adam, but few explain why they believe that. I would like to hear the reason which would be a good conversation. Thanks, Ron
Amen brother, you are right on, for 30 years I believed in a pre trib. rapture because that's what the preacher told me and since my eyes have been opened it could not be clearer that the rapture will be a post trib. rapture, ( Matt. 24:29, Mark 13:24 and Mark 5 thru 23 says you ,ye,& your, over and over(describing what "WE" will be going through, and he is talking to who, Christians, he's not talking to the world, he is talking to his disciples, referencing them , Christians as a whole, and yes, its hard to get past a belief that you was taught especially when you believe the person teaching you is a true man of God so I had to come to this conclusion, if God says it, IT'S TRUE period, I don't care if everybody on the planet disagrees with me, have a great day brother!
First of all I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to talk about it without getting upset, most Christians can't seem to do that these days, and yes, I don't want to cause hard feelings as it don't really matter as to weather were going to heaven or not, but this is what I want to say, In Genesis between verse's 1 & 2 Or 2 & 3, 1 &2 both end with the word "AND" , if I go the the restaurant and order bacon & eggs, I don't mean bring me the bacon now and a year later bring the eggs! My question to you would be simply, where is the scripture that shows anything other than the possibility of a 6 literal day creation & what negates the word "beginning"? Here's another thought, I feel like many old earthers get confused a little between 6000 years & 6000$, 6000 dollars ain't much these days but 6000 yrs!!!is a long long time, think of how far we have come as a people in just the last 120 yrs! We have went from horseback to jet airplanes, from almost 0 technology to almost infinite, from bow & arrow to nuclear weapons, if we can go that far in the last 120 yrs, why is it so hard to believe that this earth was created when God said it was a little over 6000 years ago? My friend, you seem to be well versed in scripture & obviously a Christian, however when you have been fed the dinosaur's could not have been made with man for 40 or 50 yrs. its hard to break that thought process, to me its very simple, if God said it, its true, period!
Let's not talk past each other. Chances are that neither of us will change our minds. In my humble opinion, this is a SECONDARY ISSUE, like between disagreements between Calvinists & Arminians or pre & post millennialist or baptism by immersion & baptism by sprinkling.
There are Christians who are old earth creationists (OEC) who are NOT evolutionary creationists. I believe "And God said..." and He caused that thing to happen, not the slow evolution of all life from one organism by random selection and mutation.
Frankly, both sides, YEC & OEC, have their strengths and weaknesses. I was a YEC for a long time, decades. I've read a lot and listened to both sides. OEC makes the most sense to my reading of Scripture and scientific observation.
Psalm 19 declared both the "book" of nature revelation and The Book of supernatural revelation. A correct interpretation of BOTH is essential. I know that's what we all try to do. We have trouble with both in some cases. The MAIN things are the PLAIN things: who God is, who we are, how things got broke, God's plan to fix it, what we need to do. The NON-MAIN things: well we need to be charitable and allow for liberty among Christians. Doesn't mean we can't argue our points. But please, do not mischaracterized another's point of view. As an OEC, I am not an evolutionist in any sense that supports macro evolution, common descent by random selection and mutation!
I think that if we could sit down and look each other in the eye and talk, we would have MORE important, significant things in common than not. And we could discuss those secondary areas where we disagree with civilly and with an open mind. I could be wrong and I'm willing to admit it.
(Unfortunately, there are preachers who cram too many secondary things into the MAIN things, in my opinion.)
Take it easy, Adam. May God will hear your prayers and bring you around to full health. Remember Hezekiah: Isaiah 38:1-5 Nothing is impossible with God.
I am so sorry Adam ,we will all be thinking of you and you will be in our prayers and in our hearts you must know that for sure ,come back to us very soon and let us know how you are doing ,try to stay calm and focus on Gods love for you .
Scientists base their data, like carbon dating, they set the point of calculation on the oldest thing they could verify the date of the object. Sunlight causes the formation of C-14 in the atmosphere, and radioactive decay takes it out, so the accuracy can be 1000's of years off. Nothing on this earth has been dated for millions of years. Also, they measure the amount of time it takes the light to travel from a star to get to the earth to date millions or billions of years. On day 4 when God placed the great lights the Sun and the moon and the stars it was instantaneous in 1 day.
Scientists also say the earth was one landmass called Pangaea and over the earth's history of billions of years the mass divided due to the tectonic plates called continental drift. You may not agree but I believe this was done in the days of Peleg. In the Hebrew language, the name "Peleg" means dividing by a "small channel of water" and is also root associated with the meaning of an earthquake. With God, all is possible so I take this verse as literal.
Genesis 10:25 (KJV)
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;
Richard, you are right, in Job 41 many commentators say it is a crocodile. If one would read Job 41 you will see this creature is not any creature that's here today. I also agree with you that things we have been taught have created blind spots (scotoma) and unless we clear our minds before we study we will not hear or see the truth, the preconceived ideas in our mind will block what we are reading. As Jesus said, "because they seeing see not" "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear". The number of days and evening and morning throughout the Bible means 24 hours. No part of evolution can be interpreted from scriptures.
Again, if you watch the video I suggested you will probably learn more in an hour than you have in 30 yrs about many things, I did. This guy is a independent Baptist evangelist, you will love it!
Then you do not believe what God proclaims Skip, watch Kent Hovind's creation series #1 (there are 7, all outstanding!) If you have not watched this guy your missing some great stuff. On youtube. The Bible says "IN THE BEGINNING", period. I promise im not trying to be ugly but the fact is we(pretty much all of us) have been brainwashed since kindergarten because of dinosaurs (Kents #3 video) and cavemen and not being able to rationalize the time frame because the first book they handed us in school was something like "learn about dinosaurs" - that lived 450 billion years ago! Dinosaurs are all in the Bible, but the word dinosaur was not created till the 1800's, the word used in the Bible is dragon, leviathan etc. Job is a good example
I would say that the NIV would be the most popular, used extensively by individuals & Churches. Then, the KJV, NASB, RSV, Catholic version, GNB, ESV, etc. would all be popular depending on the Church, age of the reader & ease of reading.
But for accuracy, I would still nominate the KJV & NASB as the most preferred. Others here may have their own views.
I am unclear as to whether it is an effort by a singular God or some type of reference to a group effort. Thak you you for providing clarity on this juxtaposition.
I used to listened to HWA on The World Tomorrow occasionally as a boy. Interesting. Just didn't square with The Bible.
Interestingly, Jews have maintained their identity over the millennia. There were Jews hearing Peter's sermon from all over the world
"Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Act 2:9-11
These were very probably Jews who never returned after the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Some of those, perhaps most, took The Gospel back to their homes as New Covenant believers.
Jews are back in Israel, but not in belief. There's little doubt that God has His hand of protection on this little foothold that will, when they turn to God, stretch from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jer 31:33-34
This is not Britain and the US.
-The house of Israel was taken into Assyrian captivity 721 BC (-2520 years) = 1800, at the height of the British empire = Ephraim, who Jacob said would come 1st. His older brother Manasseh (America) came out of Ephraim as God promised. These 2 boys, US/UK, are the lead tribes from the house of Israel, the birthright people from Gen 48. They became "a nation and a company of nations" (UK), and a single "Great nation" (US).
-The house of Judah was taken into Babylonian captivity 604 BC (-2520 years) = 1917, on the EXACT day and hour the Balfour declaration was signed, 11/2/1917!!! How is that for prophesy unfolding?
There is a book called "United States and Great Britain in Prophesy" by Herbert Armstrong. It was the single most fascinating book I've read that uses the Bible to define itself. That's how I became interested in the prophets.
This way you can hear an opinion and a counter argument side by side, if you're interested.
One of the topics they discussed had to do with entropy and the second law of thermodynamics with respect to death before The Fall or not.
Nothing there to change my mind. Having been a staunch YEC for decades, I have, fairly recently (within the past 30 years, for a 79 year old), adopted OEC. I can debate this with a YEC, but I'd rather discuss topics that are more substantive.
I just wanted to point out that OEC does not automatically equate to evolutionist.
Ezekiel prophesied 430 days or years against Jerusalem. Jerusalem fell in 587BC and was never occupied again as a free nation until June 7, 1967.
The difference is 6963 days, very close to the difference between 606 & 587BC!
Taking Ezekiel's 430 days of years and subtracting the 70 served in Babylon, leaves 360 years. Because of their stubbornness (actually 4 times in Lev 26:18, 21, 23-24, 27-28) their punishment is 7 times as much. At 360 days per prophetic year:
360 years x 7 x 360 days per year = 907,200 days.
Using the keisan cassio calculator:
subtracting 907,200 days from May 14, 1948 = July 21, 537BC.
subtract 70 prophetic years, 25,200 days = July 24, 606BC, when the captivity began.
"And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" Luk 21:7
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Luk 21:24
"And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:29-32
Pretty soon, I'd say.
7 x 360 = 2520
Oh, why bother...
You seems to be fixed on judgment for just two nations out if all the earth, and which seems to bring you joy,
If you answer these questions I will go into a dialog with you. We have heard and often hear this theology you're attempting to draw a comment on..
My first question is are you a Christian?
What is your Soteriology? "Doctrine of Salvation"
Do you believe "ALL" the inspired scripture and God is more than able to preserve his word?
Do you see any nation or any ethic group of people escaping the judgment of God?
And last but not least, By which way will you and anyone else escape the judgment of God?
God has a sense of humor in preparation for Babylon's desolation. I hope God plucks every tree in America by the roots.
-What was the blessings Jacob laid upon the sons of Joseph in Gen 48?
-What nations did Ephraim & Manasseh & Judah become?
-Who are the birthright people?
-When did the house of Israel go into captivity?
-When did the house of Judah go into captivity?
Knowing the answers will reveal who these people are today.
It's enlightening to see prophesy unfold, and know it.
Joshua's original name was Hoshea as derived from YAHWEH meaning salvation, referring to the Hebrew God. What a name for a great, but mere man!
Carleton
There are Christians who are old earth creationists (OEC) who are NOT evolutionary creationists. I believe "And God said..." and He caused that thing to happen, not the slow evolution of all life from one organism by random selection and mutation.
Frankly, both sides, YEC & OEC, have their strengths and weaknesses. I was a YEC for a long time, decades. I've read a lot and listened to both sides. OEC makes the most sense to my reading of Scripture and scientific observation.
Psalm 19 declared both the "book" of nature revelation and The Book of supernatural revelation. A correct interpretation of BOTH is essential. I know that's what we all try to do. We have trouble with both in some cases. The MAIN things are the PLAIN things: who God is, who we are, how things got broke, God's plan to fix it, what we need to do. The NON-MAIN things: well we need to be charitable and allow for liberty among Christians. Doesn't mean we can't argue our points. But please, do not mischaracterized another's point of view. As an OEC, I am not an evolutionist in any sense that supports macro evolution, common descent by random selection and mutation!
I think that if we could sit down and look each other in the eye and talk, we would have MORE important, significant things in common than not. And we could discuss those secondary areas where we disagree with civilly and with an open mind. I could be wrong and I'm willing to admit it.
(Unfortunately, there are preachers who cram too many secondary things into the MAIN things, in my opinion.)
Scientists base their data, like carbon dating, they set the point of calculation on the oldest thing they could verify the date of the object. Sunlight causes the formation of C-14 in the atmosphere, and radioactive decay takes it out, so the accuracy can be 1000's of years off. Nothing on this earth has been dated for millions of years. Also, they measure the amount of time it takes the light to travel from a star to get to the earth to date millions or billions of years. On day 4 when God placed the great lights the Sun and the moon and the stars it was instantaneous in 1 day.
Scientists also say the earth was one landmass called Pangaea and over the earth's history of billions of years the mass divided due to the tectonic plates called continental drift. You may not agree but I believe this was done in the days of Peleg. In the Hebrew language, the name "Peleg" means dividing by a "small channel of water" and is also root associated with the meaning of an earthquake. With God, all is possible so I take this verse as literal.
Genesis 10:25 (KJV)
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;
Richard, you are right, in Job 41 many commentators say it is a crocodile. If one would read Job 41 you will see this creature is not any creature that's here today. I also agree with you that things we have been taught have created blind spots (scotoma) and unless we clear our minds before we study we will not hear or see the truth, the preconceived ideas in our mind will block what we are reading. As Jesus said, "because they seeing see not" "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear". The number of days and evening and morning throughout the Bible means 24 hours. No part of evolution can be interpreted from scriptures.
But for accuracy, I would still nominate the KJV & NASB as the most preferred. Others here may have their own views.