God desires everyone to be saved. God does not predestinate some to hell. God gives us the choice to accept Jesus or reject Jesus and what Jesus did on the cross die to be the sacrifice for our sins. Jesus paid for my sins. I accept it. Now I need to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and not trod over his spilt blood carelessly. Lord Jesus help me when I fail you!
"I will put my Law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;...and they shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Jeremiah 24:7
That doesn't sound like an optional statement. God says he will do it, it will happen. In this age or ages to come.
All men who have lived will go through God's fire in the ages to come to burn away their flesh (sin, old man, old nature) the ones who succeed in this age, are the overcomers, the first born, who make it to the first resurrection, and reign with Christ for 1000 years on the Earth.
That is part of our inheritance.
The fire is not literal, it is the fire of God. For example when we deny our fleshly desires, and hear his voice, and heed it, it hurts. To not get your way, and die to your sinful desires and to take up that cross daily, and standing true to him among pagans and withstanding being mocked for walking with him, that is going through the fire.
How can mainstream Christians reconcile Romans 14:11
for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Do Christians really think sinners will be forced to confess and bow? And when they do God will still throw them in a literal fire to burn forever? How ridiculous is that?
I'm thankful we have a Creator that is ALL Loving, ALL Merciful, and All Powerful.
With those traits combined, I really don't think he will let a soul he has created, to be wasted.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
John, just going through your comment & a few questions arose in my mind:
a. what is the Fire of God you speak of? You said that "it's not a literal fire", but I couldn't think of a Scripture that spoke of the type of fire you mentioned.
b. Rom 14:11. I don't think the word 'forced' to confess & bow is what Christians understand when reading that verse (at least, I don't). I see that at the Coming of Christ & in His Reign on Earth, people will not be forced to do anything. Paul said that since we as believers will all stand before Christ's Judgement Seat & have to give account of ourselves, so will all those who are not believers also have to submit & confess to God about their lives & their rejection of His Christ. So, I see rather that we will all be in a state of judicial submission where our appointed time with the Judge has arrived: some to reigning with Christ & others to everlasting damnation.
c. Which then leads to: "a literal fire to burn forever." Can I assume that you see this fire as an allegory? And what of the other Scriptures that speak of it? Your response, should you wish to give it, will help me understand your position better for discussion.
About Romans 14:11, do you think some of the most vile sinners that have ever lived, do you think if they know they're about to be tossed into a literal fire forever, do you think they will confess and bow before being thrown in for "eternity"?
If they had free will, they could tell God, "I hate you, I'm not going to bow, your going damn me to torture forever anyway"
Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful.
Christs death, was more effective than Adam's sin.
Christ is the redeemer of ALL Men, not just believers.
I hope none of this comes off as condescending, that is not my intention.
I only wish to glorify God in his unlimited Love, Mercy and Power
"Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful." I referred to this previously, in connection with predestination. But for a Loving, Merciful God casting all who reject Him & His Christ, into fire, then isn't that a Holy attribute of a Just & Lawful God? If we take out punishment from the equation, then what are we left with? And what are we to do with the abundance of Scripture that warns of an eternal damnation & for those Christ gave His Life for, the martyrs who were executed, & for the glorious worth of our salvation that gives us Heaven as our goal & not as those destined to join Satan & his followers in the Lake of Fire?
So, I thank you John for your comments - you've exercised my mind & spirit superbly.
4. "The Fire of God". Once again, the Scriptures cited are relevant in every detail. Then I get to: "if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fulfil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands." I ask, what was that promise that God made & maybe could fail to keep? Was it, that ALL men would be saved? Even if look at Jn 3:16, we see that as a result of God's Love, He sent His Son to be the Saviour for all, but not all would be saved (whoever believes would not perish). We are never told that the Gospel would mean the salvation of all people, but the means by which all would be saved. I could never see Eph 1:10 & Rev 5:13 as applicable to the eventual salvation of all people. As well, then why the need for the preaching of the Gospel, why teach about leading sanctified lives, why give the promise of His Coming, when eventually all (saved & sinner) will be preserved to eternal life?
5. Rom 14:11. If the criminal had to stand before an earthly judge, they will do anything to justify their actions & hopefully find respite from the severity of their sentence. But to stand before our Great & Holy Judge? Their only response would be to fall before Him in full submission to His Glory & full admission to their filthiness before Him, regardless of their eternal destination. No more excuses & no more hypocrisy - "all will stand 'bare' and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" Heb 4:13.
3. On Predestination. "We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God". Again, I can't disagree with you on this count: after all, He drew us, He convicted us, & He saved us - nothing of ourselves there. That is why, when I hear someone say that he has 'considered many religions & then decided on Christianity', I tremble as to his actual spiritual condition.
"So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him?" So here we have the problem: put another way, a person wants to repent of his many sins & call upon Jesus, but just cannot be saved because God has not predestined him to be His child. Or, would a person who is NOT predestined to salvation, even want to repent & call upon His Name? So such a person, not predestined, by all accounts should not be punished in hell fire as that would be unjust & 'unloving' of God to do. However, could we say that this Omniscient God predestines some to eternal damnation because of their future lives of wilful disobedience & rejection of the Gospel? That is, predestination is contingent upon the response of that carnal nature, of which the Creator God could only know? Jer 1:5; Ps 139:13-16. Each one of us is still responsible for the quality of our lives (predestined or not). God doesn't judge us for what He already knows, but what we do. Our evil acts from reprobate minds then justify our eternal damnation.
John, thank you for your detailed reply & for taking the time to do so. It was very helpful to understand more fully your thoughts on the matters raised with the abundance of Scriptures you cited.
1. I'm in full agreement with the 'two natures': I understand them as you do. The statement you made on your first page, "Not only (is) this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end", would be the one I would question. I believe that our perseverance till the end IS necessary & is proof of the reality of our salvation, however, we can know NOW that we are saved & that our salvation is not left in the balance until our last breath (e.g. 1 Jn 5:11-13; Jn 5:24, 6:53,54; Rom 6:23). These verses & others show that Eternal Life for those in Christ is their blessed possession NOW & not contingent till the end. However, of course, that we endure to the end is proof of the reality of that salvation. Having worked amongst Muslims, I'm well aware of their uncertainty of salvation until their final stand before Allah. They can do all their required acts & more, but there's no certainty as their works hang in the balance (i.e. with the two angels over each shoulder). For the believer, our salvation is made sure & secure through Christ's death alone & faith in that finished work: so we can be sure now, our joy can be full now & our fight against the dark forces always end in victory. And the final proof of all that is that we finish the course fully ( 2 Tim 4:7).
2. Meaning of 'aion'. I've checked your references & concur with the meaning there of 'eternal' (age lasting/age long). I see no problem with their use whether in 'punishment' or in 'life' in those verses.
Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire.
1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Daniel 7:9-10
"As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
This verse refers to a "stream of fire" that came from before God's fiery throne. Is it possible this stream comes from or leads to a..Lake of fire?
In the verses I've provided the scripture clearly teaches us that we are tested by fire, and saved through fire. Jesus' sacrafice on the cross purchased all men, paid for all their sin, and according to the scripture, missing the mark is to sin, and if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fufil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands.
Ephesians 1:10
As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Revelation 5:13
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Every creature; that includes everyone on earth throughout all time, there are no exceptions.
2. The words 'Eternity', and 'forever' is a mistranslation that comes from the word 'aion' which means Age, or age abiding, age lasting, or into the ages, not eternity.
If the word aion was translated to eternity every time its used in scripture, it might sound like it works for some verses, but if you consistantly translate it eternity there are many verses that would make no sense.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away to eternal (age lasting) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (age lasting) life
1 Corinthians 3:18
If anyone thinks he is wise in this eternity (age), let him become a fool so that he may become wise.
3. We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God
There is the will of the flesh, and the will of Christ
You either walk by the spirit, or you walk by the flesh.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
So God is the one that allows us to believe in him, we get no credit. We cannot boast that we chose God because we didn't, he chose us. That verse plainly states that.
So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him? God is all loving right? And all powerful, so he has a system in place in which he will purify all men through fire, all will be saved.
God Also hardened Pharaohs heart, which left Pharaoh with no free choice to let the people go. If man had free will; God could not override their will, but he does.
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Thanks for the reply Chris, I'm happy to have a discussion.
This will be a multi post reply (If this website allows all of them) as there is a lot to unpack with your questions.
It seems there are some principles that need to be established in order for you to understand my position.
1. We have two Natures. There are several names for the two natures all men struggle between.
The new man and the old man, the flesh and the spirit, the carnal mind and the mind of Christ.
Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
God's Law is an expression of his nature, only when walking in the spirit (the new man/nature) can we follow it.
Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Which ties into this verse)
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (This is the non literal fire)
Not only in this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
Galatians 5:16-17
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
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That doesn't sound like an optional statement. God says he will do it, it will happen. In this age or ages to come.
All men who have lived will go through God's fire in the ages to come to burn away their flesh (sin, old man, old nature) the ones who succeed in this age, are the overcomers, the first born, who make it to the first resurrection, and reign with Christ for 1000 years on the Earth.
That is part of our inheritance.
The fire is not literal, it is the fire of God. For example when we deny our fleshly desires, and hear his voice, and heed it, it hurts. To not get your way, and die to your sinful desires and to take up that cross daily, and standing true to him among pagans and withstanding being mocked for walking with him, that is going through the fire.
How can mainstream Christians reconcile Romans 14:11
for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Do Christians really think sinners will be forced to confess and bow? And when they do God will still throw them in a literal fire to burn forever? How ridiculous is that?
I'm thankful we have a Creator that is ALL Loving, ALL Merciful, and All Powerful.
With those traits combined, I really don't think he will let a soul he has created, to be wasted.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
a. what is the Fire of God you speak of? You said that "it's not a literal fire", but I couldn't think of a Scripture that spoke of the type of fire you mentioned.
b. Rom 14:11. I don't think the word 'forced' to confess & bow is what Christians understand when reading that verse (at least, I don't). I see that at the Coming of Christ & in His Reign on Earth, people will not be forced to do anything. Paul said that since we as believers will all stand before Christ's Judgement Seat & have to give account of ourselves, so will all those who are not believers also have to submit & confess to God about their lives & their rejection of His Christ. So, I see rather that we will all be in a state of judicial submission where our appointed time with the Judge has arrived: some to reigning with Christ & others to everlasting damnation.
c. Which then leads to: "a literal fire to burn forever." Can I assume that you see this fire as an allegory? And what of the other Scriptures that speak of it? Your response, should you wish to give it, will help me understand your position better for discussion.
If they had free will, they could tell God, "I hate you, I'm not going to bow, your going damn me to torture forever anyway"
Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful.
Christs death, was more effective than Adam's sin.
Christ is the redeemer of ALL Men, not just believers.
I hope none of this comes off as condescending, that is not my intention.
I only wish to glorify God in his unlimited Love, Mercy and Power
Feel free to ask me anymore questions,
"Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful." I referred to this previously, in connection with predestination. But for a Loving, Merciful God casting all who reject Him & His Christ, into fire, then isn't that a Holy attribute of a Just & Lawful God? If we take out punishment from the equation, then what are we left with? And what are we to do with the abundance of Scripture that warns of an eternal damnation & for those Christ gave His Life for, the martyrs who were executed, & for the glorious worth of our salvation that gives us Heaven as our goal & not as those destined to join Satan & his followers in the Lake of Fire?
So, I thank you John for your comments - you've exercised my mind & spirit superbly.
4. "The Fire of God". Once again, the Scriptures cited are relevant in every detail. Then I get to: "if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fulfil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands." I ask, what was that promise that God made & maybe could fail to keep? Was it, that ALL men would be saved? Even if look at Jn 3:16, we see that as a result of God's Love, He sent His Son to be the Saviour for all, but not all would be saved (whoever believes would not perish). We are never told that the Gospel would mean the salvation of all people, but the means by which all would be saved. I could never see Eph 1:10 & Rev 5:13 as applicable to the eventual salvation of all people. As well, then why the need for the preaching of the Gospel, why teach about leading sanctified lives, why give the promise of His Coming, when eventually all (saved & sinner) will be preserved to eternal life?
5. Rom 14:11. If the criminal had to stand before an earthly judge, they will do anything to justify their actions & hopefully find respite from the severity of their sentence. But to stand before our Great & Holy Judge? Their only response would be to fall before Him in full submission to His Glory & full admission to their filthiness before Him, regardless of their eternal destination. No more excuses & no more hypocrisy - "all will stand 'bare' and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" Heb 4:13.
(onto Page 4)
3. On Predestination. "We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God". Again, I can't disagree with you on this count: after all, He drew us, He convicted us, & He saved us - nothing of ourselves there. That is why, when I hear someone say that he has 'considered many religions & then decided on Christianity', I tremble as to his actual spiritual condition.
"So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him?" So here we have the problem: put another way, a person wants to repent of his many sins & call upon Jesus, but just cannot be saved because God has not predestined him to be His child. Or, would a person who is NOT predestined to salvation, even want to repent & call upon His Name? So such a person, not predestined, by all accounts should not be punished in hell fire as that would be unjust & 'unloving' of God to do. However, could we say that this Omniscient God predestines some to eternal damnation because of their future lives of wilful disobedience & rejection of the Gospel? That is, predestination is contingent upon the response of that carnal nature, of which the Creator God could only know? Jer 1:5; Ps 139:13-16. Each one of us is still responsible for the quality of our lives (predestined or not). God doesn't judge us for what He already knows, but what we do. Our evil acts from reprobate minds then justify our eternal damnation.
(onto Page 3)
John, thank you for your detailed reply & for taking the time to do so. It was very helpful to understand more fully your thoughts on the matters raised with the abundance of Scriptures you cited.
1. I'm in full agreement with the 'two natures': I understand them as you do. The statement you made on your first page, "Not only (is) this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end", would be the one I would question. I believe that our perseverance till the end IS necessary & is proof of the reality of our salvation, however, we can know NOW that we are saved & that our salvation is not left in the balance until our last breath (e.g. 1 Jn 5:11-13; Jn 5:24, 6:53,54; Rom 6:23). These verses & others show that Eternal Life for those in Christ is their blessed possession NOW & not contingent till the end. However, of course, that we endure to the end is proof of the reality of that salvation. Having worked amongst Muslims, I'm well aware of their uncertainty of salvation until their final stand before Allah. They can do all their required acts & more, but there's no certainty as their works hang in the balance (i.e. with the two angels over each shoulder). For the believer, our salvation is made sure & secure through Christ's death alone & faith in that finished work: so we can be sure now, our joy can be full now & our fight against the dark forces always end in victory. And the final proof of all that is that we finish the course fully ( 2 Tim 4:7).
2. Meaning of 'aion'. I've checked your references & concur with the meaning there of 'eternal' (age lasting/age long). I see no problem with their use whether in 'punishment' or in 'life' in those verses.
(onto Page 2)
Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire.
1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Daniel 7:9-10
"As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
This verse refers to a "stream of fire" that came from before God's fiery throne. Is it possible this stream comes from or leads to a..Lake of fire?
In the verses I've provided the scripture clearly teaches us that we are tested by fire, and saved through fire. Jesus' sacrafice on the cross purchased all men, paid for all their sin, and according to the scripture, missing the mark is to sin, and if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fufil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands.
Ephesians 1:10
As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Revelation 5:13
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Every creature; that includes everyone on earth throughout all time, there are no exceptions.
If the word aion was translated to eternity every time its used in scripture, it might sound like it works for some verses, but if you consistantly translate it eternity there are many verses that would make no sense.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away to eternal (age lasting) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (age lasting) life
1 Corinthians 3:18
If anyone thinks he is wise in this eternity (age), let him become a fool so that he may become wise.
3. We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God
There is the will of the flesh, and the will of Christ
You either walk by the spirit, or you walk by the flesh.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
So God is the one that allows us to believe in him, we get no credit. We cannot boast that we chose God because we didn't, he chose us. That verse plainly states that.
So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him? God is all loving right? And all powerful, so he has a system in place in which he will purify all men through fire, all will be saved.
God Also hardened Pharaohs heart, which left Pharaoh with no free choice to let the people go. If man had free will; God could not override their will, but he does.
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
This will be a multi post reply (If this website allows all of them) as there is a lot to unpack with your questions.
It seems there are some principles that need to be established in order for you to understand my position.
1. We have two Natures. There are several names for the two natures all men struggle between.
The new man and the old man, the flesh and the spirit, the carnal mind and the mind of Christ.
Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
God's Law is an expression of his nature, only when walking in the spirit (the new man/nature) can we follow it.
Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Which ties into this verse)
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (This is the non literal fire)
Not only in this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
Galatians 5:16-17
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
This theme occurs throughout all of scripture.
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