Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • S Spencer - 1 month ago
    Hi Brother Chris and Giannis.

    I have heard and studied both views on John 3:5 with the water mentioned being either the word of God or the physical birth.

    Your in good company either way it goes.

    I lean over to the water mentioned in John 3:5 is the word of God because of the verses you both sited

    1 Peter 1:23-25.

    Ephesians 5:26.

    However, I don't see how it relates to water baptism.

    I don't believe water baptism represents a washing.

    I believe it testifies in one's belief in the death of Christ and the resurrection.

    I believe the washing by the word has to be taken place prior to water baptism.

    John 15:3.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    I would like to start a new conversation thread concerning the depravity of mankind resulting from the fall of Adam and Eve.

    I do not have time at this moment to share my own thoughts, but welcome the input from others. I hope to get back to this later today or tomorrow.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Gigi.

    I thought it may be good to start a separate thread.

    Part 2.

    Limited Atonement is unbiblical. It goes against the Nature of God!

    Limited Atonement is defined in this way; "For God so loved the ELECT, that he gave his only begotten Son, that HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE in him so they will not perish but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the ELECT; but that the ELECT through him might be saved.

    Gigi that is not the Gospel (good news)

    Universalism is a belief I don't hold to, though I wish it was true because I wish that no one should parish. However, it's unbiblical. God also wish that no one would parish, 2 Peter 3:9.

    Universalism is something we have been pushing back against for years on this site because it ignores the Judgement of God and the hate of sin amongst other things.

    Limited Atonement is no better being it ignores the Love of God without partiality and many of God attributes as well.

    How are we to minister to a lost world by telling them that if you are not of the elect that the invitation and verses like Revelation 22:17 and John 3:15-17 doesn't apply to them.

    What use of verses like Matthews 5:13-16 would be to us?

    The Gospel would not be Good News to most of the world!

    One other thing that Limited Atonement and Universalism has in common is that neither requires a response from the listener and if we are regenerated as early as in the wound and regeneration doesn't mean re-birth, then when do repentance take place?

    I'm surprised you can go through a series of who God is and yet hold to such a view.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    Hello again S. spencer. I think that regeneration and the rebirth are the same thing, also referred to as being born anew, born again, born from above, made alive.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    Hi Gigi.

    Sorry for such a delayed response.

    I've been very busy!

    I believe the depravity of man starting from Adam and Eve would be a great topic.

    I'm all in

    God bless you.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    Great to have you in this discussion. I will be spending a few says studying up on the biblical description of the state of unregenerated men and women.

    I will certainly appreciate your ideas here.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    S. Spencer,

    I delight in that God elected me and caused me to be saved. I do not think of this as being a robot or that my free will was violated because my unregenerated will was depraved and corrupted by sin and under the power of the prince of the air. So unregenerated man's free will is really a captive will that is only free to rebel against God and remain that way by choice.

    But one who is regenerated by God has had their will set free from this depravity and enslavement and only then can be truly free to accept what God has already done in them, being given the ability to believe by grace alone. After regeneration, one can use this truly free will to respond affirmatively to the salvation that has ALREADY happened in Jesus on the cross. We can agree with God that He has saved us by His mercy and grace poured out on us because He poured out His wrath and judgment on our sin in Hm on the Cross.

    I would also never speak to an unbeliever about predestination, election, and Romans 9. We are to share the Gospel with those God brings to us with grace and compassion, hoping that God will bring them to salvation through the hearing of the Gospel presented with kindness and pleadingly. We can trust that God will accomplish His sovereign will in each and everyone we share the Gospel with, whether His will is for the person to have been elected to salvation or not. We also can admit to the mystery of this aspect of God's sovereignty because believers would choose for every person to be saved, but God has chosen differently than we would and we must learn to be comfortable with Him in this sovereign exercise of His perfect and holy will

    I know that we will continue to differ on this topic.

    And I do appreciate your responses and queries, but I will say again, you do come across as being a bit adverse towards me in your wording. I know that you don't mean to be this way. WE have had enough disagreements for me to know this of you. We can always talk things out here.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Gigi.

    I don't mean to be adverse towards you, I love you.

    You caught me by surprise in the way you originally explained your view.

    You agreed with David on this topic but his beliefs lines up with limited Atonement.

    He doesn't believe God uses his sovereignty to choose his elect.

    The key here is does God make a decision without knowing?

    And we may differ on defining regeneration and when and how that takes place.

    We are not far apart in the way you explained yourself here but there is elements of both views in your statement.

    Gigi I will talk with you later and explain myself as time permits.

    God bless you.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    S. Spencer,

    I am thankful for your fellowship and love.

    What I am in agreement with David is the monergistic view that regeneration is solely a work of God and He provides for us grace that causes those He elected to come to belief and repentance. Also believe that God sovereignly chose whom to be saved by election. I don't know how He used His foreknowledge to predestine the elect. But I do not believe in limited atonement.

    Thanks you for you input. This subject of salvation and how it comes about is important for believers to speak about as you have often said. I look forward to hearing from you later.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Gigi and thanks for responding.

    I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused

    May I ask, How do you define or describe Limited Atonement?
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello S, Spencer,

    I understand Limited Atonement as the view that the death and sacrifice of Jesus was done only for those elected to salvation, and so, Jesus did not take on the sins of the whole of humanity. This may not be exactly what calvinists such as David view it.

  • [Comment Removed]
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    Hi again Gigi.

    I need to edit my response.

    I ran together a few paragraphs.

    Here's how it should read.

    "Yes Gigi,

    That is the way he "David" described it his view. This view he described is Limited Atonement.

    He made it very clear, unfortunately that's where you came in and agreed with him.

    And the view you described is that "the love offering of the Lamb of God and INVITATION of the free gift is limited by God, and Christ sacrificial death on the cross wasn't for all, and his foreknowledge had no part in declaring his elect.

    Gigi, I believe God knows who will come to him, However the invitation goes out to everyone.

    Whosoever thirst, come!!

    That is what was being debated in the beginning of the debate.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    hello S. Spencer,

    I was agreeing with David's belief that God elects and brings to salvation those He predestined to be saved through Jesus Christ alone (monergistically). So, I apologize if I was unclear when i first entered the conversation. However, I think I have explained myself well in the responses I gave to you so I think we can depart from this aspect of the conversation.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello again S. Spencer.

    I do not hold to limited atonement because I believe that the Sacrifice of Jesus sufficient for all and that the Person of Jesus, as God in the flesh s of infinite worth to be our substitute to atone for each and every human. He is the Father's most precious and beloved Son and the Father gave Him as the most valuable one to be sacrificed on behalf of humanity. So in this sense, God desires everyone to be saved because the person and the sacrifice are all-sufficient. But we know that ALL are not saved, so is God unable to save everyone, NO. But in His wisdom and ultimate aim for creating any beings is to take from within humanity a people sanctified for Himself that He has made holy and perfect in the resurrection for eternity. So His ultimate will is that not all will be elected and those who are not elected will NEVER seek God, honor Him as God alone, care to find out and believe the truth of Who He is. They will remain dead in sin, enemies of God, vessels of wrath, separated from God, and at enmity with God forever.

    This aspect of God's sovereignty is really disturbing to most believers because we tend to divide God's character and nature into parts such as love, mercy, justice, wrath, etc and think that He can forego the glory of one attribute for another. But that is not true of Him (as I understand Him)

    I know that people often ask and have done so on here: where does human free will come in in salvation? The Bible is clear that unregenerate man CANNOT choose to believe in Jesus, ask to be saved, seek after God, nor repent. I could list many Scriptures here but I hope to do so in another thread. So, many are uncomfortable with the thought that God elects and effectually calls and saves those HE predestined monergistically. My thought and with Joy is that I know that without God's work of bringing me to salvation, my free will is IMPOTENT to do what only God can do and is enslaved to sin before God regenerated me all by Himself.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello S. Spencer,

    to respond to your queries. When I was 3 and knew I believe in Jesus, it was with childlike faith not like I grew to have as an adult where my mature mind could understand the Bible, the Gospel Message, and how I needed to be saved from being a sinful person.

    That is I believe and perhaps I did not explain it so well.

    About other children and infants, I am not saying that any of them will end up in hell. That is God's sovereign choice, and I do believe that He will be gracious and merciful to any and all children who die during this time of their life. But those who will live to an age when they can actually hear the Gospel, see their need for salvation, and turn to God, they may or may not be given regenerated as a young child, but certainly will be so given the rebirth at the time when they are old enough to be changed by God in the rebirth and given faith to believe and repent IF they are predestined to be saved.

    I hope I am being clear on this.

    I know that God is ALL of His attributes at the same time and that ALL of these attributes are fully and perfectly expressed in His divine essence for there is not change of emotion, will or degree in His Person. Since I believe this is true of God, His sovereignty will always be expressed along with His love, free will, justice, holiness, compassion without any attribute needing to be diminished in order for another attribute to be expressed.

    Romans 9 1-23 is such a classic section that addresses God's sovereign choice to be merciful and gracious to those He will be so to AND that there are some who, as vessels of wrath will spend eternity in the lake of fire as He expresses His justice to those not chosen. Again, He desires all to be saved, but also, His Sovereignty and glory is His paramount aim n creation. As Romans 9 does speak to: that those who are vessels of mercy may see the glory of His grace and mercy and all the more so when the vessels of wrath are judged to the lake of fire.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Bro S. Spencer, thanks for your thoughts here. It was bro Giannis who shared 1 Peter 1:23-25, though my reference to Ephesians 5:26 wasn't intended to lend support to the belief that Jesus' Words to Nicodemus meant that 'Unless a man be born by (from) the Word and of (from) the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'. I'm not sure that by telling Nicodemus that a man must be "born of water (really, the Word)" would have given him any satisfaction that his question was answered. To him, Jesus would have still been talking in riddles. Jesus could have stated that 'a man must be born again by hearing & receiving the Word of God and also His Spirit' which seems to make more sense in answering his question. But Jesus' use of being 'born of water', when Nicodemus is given no explanation that actually water represents 'washing by the Word', doesn't seem helpful.

    But I agree, that John 3:5 has nothing to do with water baptism, since water baptism doesn't generate a new birth, rather a declaration of one's identification with Christ's Sacrifice & Resurrection after the new birth, as an act of personal & public witness. Unlike today in Western countries, such a baptism being undertaken in other countries holding to anti-Christian faiths, most likely meant rejection, or incarceration, or even death to the new believer. Blessings.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 1 month ago
    God does 100% of the WORK to SAVE.

    One of the very best passages that addresses this fundamental and essential principle of salvation is Ezekiel 36:24-32

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

    Noticed that every single action is GOD's. action, not OUR action. Not our acceptance, not our belief, not our repentance, not our confession, not water baptism, no work whatsoever that we do can initiate, nor contribute to, nor assure the salvation that God applies to those whom he has chosen to be saved.

    We can only cry to God for mercy in the very real hope that God might save us and that our sins might have been paid for.

    Any good works that we do are the RESULT of our salvation. They are NEVER the cause, nor the means by which God saves us. Eph 2:1-10 Rom 9:11
  • Derek - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hebrews 5:9

    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    1 Peter 1:22-23

    Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one anothe r with a pure heart fervently:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Matthew 7:21

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
  • Rainwalker - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Eze 33:14,19
  • Momsage - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi David0921:

    So, if I understand you that despite my asking God to forgive me of my sins and become born again, I can't know if I'm going to heaven or hell? The best I can do is hope I'm one of the ones He's already chosen to go to heaven. It doesn't matter what kind of life I live I still might not be chosen by Him and there is a very real possibility that my neighbor who lives like the devil is going because he is one of the chosen? Isn't this is Calvinism a false doctrine and there's no hope in this religion then or in Catholicism another false doctrine. God Bless :)
  • David0921 - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello Momsage,

    I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches.

    It is true that Before we have become saved, we cannot know if we are one of God's elect. And we are in rebellion against God in both body and soul just like any other person, elect or not.

    However, if God intends to "save" us He will begin to draw us. We will become more and more aware that we are in deep and terrible trouble with God because of our sins. We will begin to cry out to God for His mercy that He might save us. We will begin to turn away from our sins and turn to God with a broken and contrite heart as God works within us.

    At some point God will apply His Salvation to our life by giving us a New Resurrected Soul, and we will have become Born Again. We will have become a "New creature in Christ" and can know that God has saved us as we see the evidence of Salvation in our life.

    All of this is very mysterious and unique to each individual in many ways, I believe.

    God can "save" us even in our mother's whom, like John the Baptist. Or at the last moments of our life, like the thief on the cross who one moment was reviling Jesus just like the other and then was asking Jesus to "remember him"; this was Christ working in his heart, giving him a New Heart, a New Soul before our very eyes, as Christ said to him "today you will be with me in paradise".

    So yes, if we are one of God's elect and have become "saved", we can know and have the assurance of salvation, as we see the evidence of salvation in our life, and we have become a child of God.

    But all of this is God's work as He works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

    I have said this very inadequately and incompetently. And we must humble ourselves before the Word of God as we search out the Scriptures, praying that God might open our understanding to see if these things are so.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi David0922: Is this what you are saying: that sometime before hand God decided

    Who would be saved and who won't and those are the ones who will go to heaven and God works on their hearts to make them become born again. But we ourselves can only know if we're one of the elect is by God drawing us to Him. So, where does freewill fit into this teaching? GOD BLESS :)
  • David0921 - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Momsage,

    "Freewill" relative to salvation is not taught in the Bible. God does all the work in accordance with His Will, not our will.

    Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    Ephesians 1

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Ephesians 2

    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 6 days ago
    Hi Daaaviddd0921: Sorry my reply is a little late. In verse Romans 9:16 (KJV)

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. S

    He is simply saying mankind cannot will or make progress ( runneth: (trekh'-o Strong's/Bible Hub) to gain heaven. It is only through God's mercy for those who ask for it. you didn't answer my question: what happens to those who are not of the elect, those not chosen by God to be saved? It seems to me God is just disposing of them.

    Ephesians 1:3-7 Is addressed to the to the church in Ephesus (us) and the Church of God was predestined to be established during Christ's ministry on earth NOT individuals.

    Ephesians 2:1-10 is telling simply telling us that it is the grace and mercy of God through Jesus' death and resurrection the we can be born again.

    Please show me through the actually wording of these verses how they interpret different then what I have shown. God Bless:)
  • Momsage - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    Hi David0921: This is what I understand you to believe: that if God didn't choose me as one of the elect before I was born that when I die I will go to hell. God Bless :)
  • Shantel - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    David0921

    The winds of the teachings of man blow hard against the truth of God's word.

    Don't falter in proclaiming truth.

    Man has no freewill, only God's will prevails in his creation.

    Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing without revealing his secrets to his servants the prophets.

    Philippians 2:13 For it is God that worketh IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO HIS good pleasure.

    We DIED on the cross with Christ, ONLY Christ arose and we as JOINT HEIRS.

    Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with THEM, saith the Lord; My Spirit that is upon THEE (Christ), and my words that I (the Father) put in thy (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from hence forth and for ever.

    Amos 2:7 Can two (as one flesh) walk together, except they BE AGREED?

    God Bless You
  • Derek - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    The word freewill is in the Bible 17 times according to this search. The word choose occurs 58 times. The Bible says it, but you say it does not exist.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Thanks David0921 for your comment, to which I fully agree. And welcome back to this Discussion Page. When you quoted Ezekiel 36:24-32 and verse 25 states, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean...", I thought you intended to address the 'sprinkling of clean water' as reference to the Word, as some understand John 3:5 ('born of water'). However, you made no mention of this, so in respect of your comment, I agree, that salvation is all of God's Work - we contributing absolutely nothing to it, except to receive the Gift in brokenness & faith. GBU.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 1 month ago
    However Chris,

    I would not agree that our "receiving" or "accepting" the gift of salvation is contributory towards our salvation in any way whatsoever.

    Whether or not an individual becomes "saved" is God's choice. Not our choice.

    And if I am in anyway trusting that I am safe a secure BECAUSE I have taken some action in order to become saved or contribute to my salvation, I am not trusting in the gospel of the Bible.

    And I don't think this is an insignificant point. It is fundamental to the Nature of the salvation program in which we are trusting.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    I agree David0921 that "receiving or accepting the gift of salvation is not contributory towards our salvation". What I meant by my comment was that salvation is received with gratitude as a response to what God has done & given to us - and this response is not contributory to our salvation, but a result of it.

    However, to the rest of your comment (& we've been down this path before), I don't see eye-to-eye with you on it. I do believe that the Lord knows who will come to Him & He, by His Spirit, will draw that soul. But that soul needs to hear the Gospel, the Spirit will energize him to understand, be convicted, & repent. These aspects are not contributory to one's salvation, but are a result of the Spirit's operation in the life. Without these, then one must come to believe that a person is first saved by God's Work alone, then he will be enlightened & Spirit-charged so that he will repent of his sins. To this I don't agree, as it's 'putting the cart before the horse'.

    When I read several Scriptures that confirm this, including Acts 2:21, "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost", they speak of a soul who repents, calling upon the Lord to save him - and when he is saved/forgiven, the Holy Spirit is given (all simultaneous I'm sure). The sinner's act of repenting & calling upon the Lord for salvation, I don't see as contributing in any way to his salvation, but a response from the heart as he is under the Spirit's convicting Work.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Hello Chris,

    Thank you again for your response. I have appreciated our back and forth on this sublect and I don't mind at all rehashing this topic that we have discussed in the past. Because in my view, while every teaching from the Bible is important since we are dealing with the Word of God, Himself, there is no more important or critical teaching than the Nature of Salvation itself. And if we are trusting in a salvation that is not the salvation of the Bible we are trusting in a lie, in escense a false gospel. That is the snare that certainly National Isreal fell into. And I believe, that the local churches and congregations, to one degree or another, have also fallen into the same snare in teaching a gospel where man himself, and not God ALONE, is ultimately in control of their salvation.

    I think that to understand the true Nature of Salvation, one must understand the true nature of mankind apart from God's mercy in salvation. The Bible, I believe, is crystal clear in this regard. We read in Romans 3:10-18 and many other passages on the Bible the terible spititual condition of each and every one of us apart from salvation. We are Spiritually Dead and it is God that must make us Spiriyually alive " Eph 2:1. Just as Jesus raised Lazarus from physical Death and Lazarus played no part in that whatsoever; God must raise us from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life and we play no part in that whatsoever.

    God did not look down the corridors of time before He created the world and saw that some would respond to the gospel and some would not. What He saw is the NO ONE would respond. But despite that dismal fact, God in His Mercy chose to save some. God does not tell us how He made that choice. But He did make it crystal clear that it was not because He saw that some were more likely to respond than others or that there was anything inherent in any one of us deserving of salvation. By nature we are all in rebelion against God and will never come to Him.

    More to come
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Thanks again David0921. To your first two paragraphs, I find complete agreement: that God alone grants salvation to man, for man in his filthy sinful state could never contribute anything to assist in that glorious Plan of God.

    But to your third paragraph. From what I gather, you're stating that God did not know (nor did He try to know) who would or would not respond to the Gospel. But He chose to save some regardless. So, would I be correct in understanding that God just picked out certain ones to save & the rest of mankind He rejected? Two areas of concern for me are: I don't believe that anything is outside the Knowledge of God - He knows all - He sees all. If knowing who would respond to Him is outside that knowledge, then you might find it very hard to support that belief, if you believe that God has, or has chosen to have, limited knowledge.

    Secondly, Scriptures as John 3:16 ('God so loved the Worldthat WHOSOEVER believeth in Him'), and 2 Peter 3:9 ('The Lordis longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish'), show to me that all sinners, I repeat, ALL sinners are loved by God & the merits of His Son's death availed to all. I simply can't read it as 'God so loved the ones He picked out for salvation, that even though He didn't want any to perish, He, by His selection, would preclude some (or, many) to receive it'. This would also alleviate the necessity to preach the Gospel, even taking it to far off lands, for why should it be done, if God had already picked out His chosen ones & they will be saved regardless of them hearing and responding to the Gospel?

    If we are at odds over these few matters, then even the matter of 'salvation being wholly of God alone' doesn't even arise at this stage. Maybe, you could show me what Scriptures support God not having foreknowledge of all things, and also that He selects some, refusing others for His salvation.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 1 month ago
    One other point Chris.

    You say: "the merits of His Son's death availed to all"

    By that I assume you mean that Christ paid the full penalty required by the Law of God for each and every sin committed by EVERY PERSON, saved or not.

    If that were true then GOD must save EVERYONE since they would stand guiltless before the Law of God. And if God were to punish them again, that would be Double Jepardy. And we know that is not the case and would be a violation of God's Justice.

    I personally find tremendous comfort in God's elective program. And I can pray not only for myself, but for my loved one's knowing that God is TOTALLY in control of their salvation. And that He doeth ALL things well.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Page 1.

    Thank you David0921 for explaining that third paragraph. I mistakenly took it the other way: that God was somehow diminished in knowledge by only seeing 'those who would not respond', failing to see those who would respond, thus entering His Kingdom. I can now see what you were writing.

    Further on, you wrote, 'The Bible clearly teaches that ALL Mankind is DEAD in Trespasses and Sin. Eph 2:1 And it requires God to first "draw", and then "save" those whom He has chosen to salvation by giving them a New Heart. This is becoming Born Again. That action is entirely God's action. It is not dependent on any action or response on our part.'

    That was an interesting statement, though I wondered where the conviction of sin, repentance, calling upon the Lord, and belief (saving faith) come in, in-between the 'drawing and then saving' (and to this you refer to as 'becoming born again'). Why I ask, is that there is a belief, which I don't subscribe to, that we are first saved & once we are enlightened & regenerated, now alive & not spiritually dead, we can then repent & call upon the Lord in faith.

    Yes, I did state, "the merits of His Son's death availed to all". By this, I meant that Christ's Sacrifice was the necessary payment as required by the Father so that every person, who could never make payment for their sin or cleanse their guilty conscience, has now been given a clear path to God for forgiveness, having satisfied God's Wrath against us & Jesus being our Substitute by paying our penalty.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Page 2. To David0921.

    Is God then obliged to save everyone based on this Sacrifice? The price was paid, the Gift of Salvation is now offered to all who hear, understand & believe the Gospel - all we have to do is to receive this gracious undeserved Gift of God. Some will receive it, being moved by the Spirit towards repentance, but most will have nothing to do with self-examination of their hearts & of judgement to come upon them. God opened the door for all through His Son's shed blood - the price was paid for all - BUT what good is the Gift if it be rejected & counted as something useless?

    God did the Work offering them salvation - they sealed their fate by refusing His offer; yet God knowing who would refuse (or accept) Him, the Gift was still there for all to respond to & receive, that none would be without excuse and not one would not have the Sacrifice availed for them - given by the God of Love & all Merciful.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 4 weeks ago
    Well stated here Brother Chris.

    Quoting you;

    ( Christ's Sacrifice was the necessary payment as required by the Father so that every person, who could never make payment for their sin or cleanse their guilty conscience, has now been given a clear path to God for forgiveness, having satisfied God's Wrath against us & Jesus being our Substitute by paying our penalty)

    God will judge the dead by their works.

    Revelation 20:12.

    They are judged by a righteous God and they are Judged in that manner because they WERE offered a sacrifice that they rejected and a justified judgement felt on them.

    God bless you.
  • Chris - In Reply - 4 weeks ago
    Indeed brother S. Spencer. Blessings.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 4 weeks ago
    I would then ask, Mr. Spencer:

    If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    David0921.

    Part 2.

    Here is scripture from my earlier post that applies to your question.

    1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: (AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY) ...BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

    John 1:7-9 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. "That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.

    John 3:15-18. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELEIVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

    Here is one that is overlooked. 1 Peter 2:1.

    It speaks of those that denied the Lord that bought them.

    "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, EVEN DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, AND BRING UPON THEMSELVES SWIFT DESTRUCTION.

    The people he is talking about is not saved. They DENIED the Lord.

    but the Lord's purchase was applied to them if they would accept it.

    There is no limited atonement.

    God bless.


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