Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Naisa koroi - 1 month ago
    Am I breaking the sabbath commandment by observing Sunday worship?
  • Momsage - In Reply - 4 weeks ago
    Hello Naisa koroi:

    Worshiping God is wonderful for the believer any day, any time whether on your own or in fellowship. The 4th commandment, although, addressed to Israel at the time God gave them, where for ALL of Gods children and that is proven by the fact that we obey them still today, except the 4th. The 4th commandment only asks that we set one day (Sabbath; Saturday) for a rest for our minds, bodies, and souls. Since most of the world worships on Sunday this is not breaking the 4th commandment, unfortunately though, people have also determined that that will be their day of rest also, despite the commandment is for Saturday. But putting days of the week aside, we need to have one day of real rest a week. God commanded it and specifically said "remember it" for us so that we, as believers, would make it a true day of rest. Mostly now Saturdays are for chores and errands and hopefully after worship on Sunday the person or family relaxes and rest at home. But if chores or errands weren't finished on Saturday it usually gets finished on Sunday because people attribute the Sabbath as only a day of worship now when, in fact as I said, there is nothing in the commandment that is about worship. It is such a blessing that you are a believer in Christ and have given your heart and life only to Him. Be glad and rejoice. Study your bible diligently for your answers as we are told to do in 2 Timothy 2:15 one of the most important verses in the bible, in my opinion.

    God Bless:)
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Hello Naisa Koroi. In a short answer, I don't believe that worshiping God on a Sunday is breaking the 4th Commandment.

    Briefly, my reasons are as follows: this Commandment, alongwith the others, were given to God's people, Israel, for their behavior before God & their fellow-men ( Exodus 20:1-17). The Sabbath was purely a day set apart from all others - a day of complete rest, thus it was a holy (i.e. sanctified, separated) day from the other six days ( Exodus 31:15).

    The Sabbath Command never included the necessity to worship God, though it certainly could be used that way in the family home, & then later for functions within the Tabernacle of the Congregation, other sabbath observances, & latterly, in the Synagogue.

    The Sabbath Day required that no work be done, even cooking or picking up sticks, moving furniture, lighting a fire, etc. ( Exodus 35:2,3). So the Jewish Sabbath has no correlation to when Christ's Church chooses to worship the Lord today. Some might choose to hold the Sabbath as a day of rest from all work, but for worship, believers in Christ can worship on the first day of the week ( Acts 20:7), or any day of the week for that matter; even as Jesus told the Samaritan woman, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and in TRUTH: for the Father seeketh such to worship him" ( John 4:23).

    It's no longer the day of worship or the place of worship that matters (whether on Mt. Gerizim in Samaria, or even in the temple at Jerusalem, as Jesus told the woman), but that our worship, whether done in private or with a Church congregation, is done in the realm of the Holy Spirit & in Truth. So Naisa, may your heart be comforted that the day of corporate worship doesn't matter to the Lord, but that we worship Him with pure hearts, and in sincerity & Truth. Be blessed.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 4 weeks ago
    Hi Chris.

    If the day didn't matter why did God (Jesus) specifically command the Sabbath or the seventh day to be our day to rest like He did and emphasis it by telling us to remember it and then turn around when He was incarnate and discount it or change His mind about something so important?

    A real day of rest, which is what God commanded, would be a real blessing for us. It rejuvenates the mind, body and soul. It gives us the opportunity to set the things of the world, work, even troubles, aside and gives us a full day to give God and family our undivided attention so we can just relax in the Lord. Fellowship with friends is good on the Sabbath also giving them real time and attention, not just a few minutes after church or sitting in a crowded, noisy restaurant.

    That said, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew theyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." is one of the most important scriptures we can read and obey, I believe. There are to many people telling us this and that and the other thing, including myself, so believers need to learn what God says about anything themself by studying and trusting the Holy Spirit to show them what God's will is. God Bless :)
  • Chris - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello Momsage. I'm surprised by your engaging with me here, since you haven't rescinded your past request in this regard.

    In any case, to respond now to your question, I think you will agree that the Sabbath, as with the other nine commandments were given purely to the children of Israel. I say that with some confidence as you stated this fact (in part) to Naisa Koroi, "The 4th commandment, although, addressed to Israel at the time God gave them, were for ALL of Gods children...".

    So our difference is not on which day the Sabbath falls (i.e. on the seventh day of the week, the day that the LORD chose to cease from all His works & sanctify it ( Genesis 2:2)), but whether the Jewish observance of the Sabbath is encumbent upon the one in Christ now. You've stated that the 4th Commandment is "for ALL of God's children", and this is where I would disagree. I would find it difficult to correctly understand the directives given to the Church from Jesus & the Apostles, and yet still hold onto the Law (which includes the Decalogue & other commandments) that not only don't apply to me, a Gentile, but of no value to the Church in Christ Jesus.

    Probably like you, I grew up learning by rote, the Decalogue, as also the stories of Adam & Eve, the Flood, the Crucifixion, etc. And we accepted all that we were taught without question. But when I became new in Christ Jesus, many questions arose, and sometimes challenged my long-held beliefs carried through the years. So, by searching the Scriptures, I no longer count my previous learning valid, though very useful of course, but try to bring together all what the Bible teaches me. Many Scriptures assisted me in this, but one as an example is Galatians chap 3, and particularly verse 19: "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made...". Jesus' Coming & Sacrifice negated all the Law - we are now to live by His Spirit, obeying His Laws imputed in us.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Chris: I'm really sorry I didn't let you know I was posting again and if you'd rather not do this discussion I'm fine with that.

    When I refer to the law I am only referencing the 10 commandments. It's my sense that you are saying that the law was purely for the Jews only, does that includes the 10 commandments? if you are saying that the 10 commands were only for the Jews then I do have some questions:

    A) What standard do the gentiles follow in order to live righteous lives for God if not the commandments?

    B) What are the imputed laws that Jesus expects us to obey?

    C) There are so many verses in the new testament that deal with obeying the commandments, like the two below. What do you believe they are telling us?

    Romans 2:12-13

    All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

    James 2:10

    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. God Bless :0
  • Chris - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Page 1.

    Not a problem Momsage. I'm more than happy to converse with anyone who wishes to do so, though I was careful to not overstep the bounds you had once set to your communicants.

    I understand that you're referencing only the 10 Commandments as the Law given, & as I stated, to Israel only. So your questions:

    a. when we refer to Gentiles, we can think of all those outside of God's special called-out people; those of old-time who never even heard of such a Law & were a law unto themselves, and now to us now, who have heard of the Law, but are brought under subjection to governments of men. So, what standards do the Gentiles follow? Those of old times, Romans 2:14 applies, "...the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves", but the 'working of the law is upon their hearts, excusing or accusing them'. Those under civil government are subject to the 'laws of the land' regardless of how well govts adhere to Divine Law or not. Many gentiles today, as those of yesteryear, have no idea of those laws given to Israel, but they do know that civil law bares its ruthless arm against them.

    b. the "imputed laws that Jesus expects us (Christians?) to obey", would be everything that we need to know & obey according to the dictates of the Holy Spirit within us. And these 'laws' I think you would agree, go far far beyond the abridged Decalogue. E.g. you won't find the sin of Pride in the Decalogue, yet as Christians we immediately are given conviction & the need for repentance when pride surfaces in our thoughts or speech. Yet, we get a problem: a conviction to one may not always be a conviction to another believer; e.g. a white lie, wearing immodest clothing, using slightly flowery language, etc. Each one of us has to stand before God for our lives, knowing that not all of us have gained the same spiritual understanding/maturity to know & act upon deviations from righteous living.
  • Chris - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Page 2.

    c. just considering the two passages you shared about "obeying the commandments":

    Romans 2:12,13 which needs to be considered in its entirety Romans 2:12-16. Verse 12: Paul refers to those without the Law (i.e. Gentiles) will perish, just as those of Israel (in the Law), who sin will perish. Verse 13: only the doers of the Law (i.e. those given the Law) will be justified (but none have kept the Law perfectly leading to justification). Verses 14,15: Paul confirms that the Gentiles never received the Law, but by nature/conscience sake demonstrate the working of the Law within them. And so Gentiles construct their own law to suit their lives/consciences, yet without God's Law being their motivation & yardstick.

    So these verses don't tell me that Christians come under the Law to obey them, rather they speak of Gentiles who have not received the Law, avoid God's Work of appealing to their (some of their) hearts, & ultimately refusing to hear & obey the Gospel that can deliver them from the agony & weight of their sin. These, along with Israel who do not keep God's Laws perfectly (as none can anyway), will perish, without the One Who came to fulfil the Law & redeem them by being their substitute for sin's punishment.
  • Chris - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Page 3.

    James 2:9-12: James is writing in these verses about those who would "keep (fully obey) the whole law", yet go astray even by committing one sin in a moment of time, having demonstrated their inability to keep (continually uphold) the Law as required. "So speak ye ( James 1:26), and so do ( James 2:17), as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty (the Law believers are under, 2 Corinthians 2:17, Galatians 5:1, James 1:25)". The Law of Liberty, can also be referred to the Law of the Spirit Who gives Liberty ( 2 Corinthians 3:17, Romans 8:2), assures our hearts that we are accepted of the Lord because we have been forgiven & the Gift of the Holy Spirit continually ministers to our hearts & lives to help us live holy lives or lead us/discipline us when we stray off course.

    This Liberty, the Law could never give - Israel always remained fearful of it, eventually leading them into idolatry & debauchery, but to those IN Christ Jesus there is now no condemnation who walk after the Spirit ( Romans 8:1) - we should not be bound to the letter that had as its goal to expose & destroy souls, but to the Spirit Who gives Power & Life to obey God perfectly, "hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" ( Jude 1:23). Only the Laws given us by the Spirit to our hearts cover every area of our lives, ministering to us in His Way (& not in human strength), so we can live above the letter's demands but as new creations in Christ. There was nothing wrong with the 10 Commandments, for they are from God & His Truth - but they were for Israel alone, for their conduct before God & man, to show them their sin, God's requirements, & prepare them to approach God in Love, Truth, & Faith. All who did at that time were accepted by their faith alone ( Hebrews 11:39,40) & not on how well they kept the Law. Romans 8:3,4 (we allow the righteousness of the Law to work & be fulfilled in us by God's Spirit - never appealing to the letter, which is devoid of life). Every blessing.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Chris:

    Thank you for the time and thought you have put into your comment. I'm afraid I'm of a more simple mind. For example; a lie is a lie, using any kind of profanity whether the culture accepts it or not: "Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks." Ephesian 5:4 These are not suggestions these are commandments. So I'd like to say in my simple way, that the Law of God was given to the Jews in written form excursively but the teachings of the commandments were already written on the hearts of mankind as a conscience. All sin are covered by the commandments including pride: A proud person isn't going to put God first in the things they do. A proud person probably won't honor anyone including their parents. Also #9 and #10 fit the bill. Anything given from God is for all mankind so that all mankind can know Him and follow Him if they surrender to Him. This is all simple but true.

    God Bless :)
  • Chris - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Anyway Momsage, thank you for your time & interest in this important subject. I can see that we won't find agreement concerning the reason & implications for the giving of the Decalogue. And for me to discuss what you have just written would require much more time, so I will withdraw for now. Every blessing upon you.
  • Oseas - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Momsage

    Romans 2:14-16 and 12 and 5-11

    14For when the Gentiles, which HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    16In the Day (this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (the Judgment Seat of Christ) according to my gospel.

    Get ready

    12For as many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW(the Gentiles)shall also PERISH WITHOUT LAW:and as many as have sinned in the LAW shall be JUDGED by the LAW;

    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;(This Day arrived)

    6 Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH,

    (What is written in the verses 7 and 8 above will be LITERALLY fulfilled from now on. The Word is GOD, GOD HIMSELF, self-executing,understand?)

    9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL of man that doeth evil,of the JEW first,and also of the GENTILE;

    ( Isaiah 26:20-21->20 Come,my people,enter thou into thy chambers,and shut thy doors about thee:HIDE THYSELF as it were for a little moment(the last week-week 70th- Daniel 9:27),until the INDIGNATION be overpast. 21 For,behold, the LORD cometh out of His place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity( Matthew 24:10-13): the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain)

    10But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the JEW first,and also to the GENTILE;

    11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

    Get ready


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