This is for David 0921 , the thread is a bit out of control now so I shall start this as a new one . There is an account of an unsaved baby sadly dying , it's in 2nd Samuel Ch 12 V 15-23 . Here we read of the sad demise of David's child that was conceived in adultery with Bathsheba . Remember that male Jewish children entered into a covenant relationship with God , on their eighth day of life by being circumcised , and therefore being made officially a member of the family of Israel . We read that David fasted and prayed for this child for six days , David knew that if this child lived long enough to be circumcised , that it would be in a covenant relationship with God and would therefore be ressurected when the Messiah comes , this is why he fasted and prayed for six days . On the seventh day the child dies , uncircumcised and therefore he is gone forever . He will not be ressurected . 2nd Samuel Ch 12 V 15-23 . Everything we need to know is in the Bible :) . As David says , I shall go to him ( to the grave ) , but he shall not return to me ( be ressurected ) .
Hiya Jema...no offence....But leme give ya my slant on this 2 nd Child that Bathsheba had with David....The 1 st Child died symbolic of the 1 st child that was born by this relationship of Christ with the early Church....Which was Christianity that died in its infancy....Original Christianity was a beautiful Child but it was sick....We have not seen a child like Original Christianity for 2 k yrs But it died in its infancy....B/c the early Church had a husband which was the law....Thats y Paul said you are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be Married to another even to him that was raised from the dead... Romans 7 :4 ...Remember Bathsheba had to marry ANOTHER even David....My lil Children of whom i travail in birth AGAIN a 2 nd time till Christ is formed in you...At Horeb Moses married all Israel to the law....Saying this is what God has enjoined unto you....But You are dead to the law by the body of Christ....Bathsheba was dead to Uriah by the body of David....Eccle 4:15 I saw the 2 nd Child that shall rise up in his stead ( Christ stead) and there is no end to the ppl he shall be king over...Whosoever receiveth one such Child in MY name... the 2 nd Child.. The Woman in Rev. 12: 5 is giving birth to the 2 nd Child which is the H.G. the Children of PROMISE that are gonna be as the stars of heaven..Her 1 st Child Christianity died.... Micah 5 :3 Therefore shall he give them up till she that is in travail has given birth then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the Children of ISRAEL....Thats y Paul said when that which is perfect is come that which is done in parts will be done away with...We know in part and we prophesy in part but when that which is perfect is come (the 2 nd Child that spirit of truth) that is gonna reprove the world of sin and judgement and righteousness....The manchild is gona rule all nations with a rod of iron..which is the 2 nd child... the spirit of truth that is gona reprove the world of sin etc...The 2 nd Child.
I want to add something to my original note to you on this passage.
The key verse in this passage that cements the understanding that David's child was "saved" is 2 Samuel 12:23.
But now he is dead {physically dead and his body in the grave}, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him {in heaven to be with Christ when David dies physically, because that is where David's son now resides in his soul existence to await the Resurrection at the Last Day}, but he shall not return to me {in his physical body while David is still living physically}.
This fits perfectly with what the Bible teaches about the true nature of salvation and what happens to a True Believer when they die physically.
We can pray for physical healing for a loved one while they still have physical life, if it may be God's will to heal that person. And more importantly we may pray for spiritual healing, i.e. salvation for a loved one, if it might be God's will to save them, while they are still physically alive.
While it was not God's will to return David's child to physical health and the baby died. God most certainly did save David's son before he died physically.
And all of this was performed by God in accordance with His perfect plan. And the account provided for us in the Bible for our instruction.
Dear David 0921 , may I ask you , what do you think that Martha's beliefs must have been at the time that she said the words in John Ch 11 V 20-24 ? I know how Christ responds to her in V 25 , what do you think she was talking about in V 24 ? Do you think that what she is talking about could be connected to what David believes about his deceased son in 2nd Samuel ?
Yes Jema, there is definitely a connection with David's son which I do not have time to fully address right now other than to say that in verse 24 Martha had it exactly correct. Lazarus' body will be Resurrected a glorified Spiritual Body on the Last Day and united with his Resurrected Soul which today has eternal life and lives with Christ in Heaven until the Last Day.
I also want to address this matter of the Soul, both before and after becoming saved, i.e. becoming Born Again. I sense some very faulty understanding based on what the Bible teaches.
I agree with you, this subject is rooted in the soul being immortal that came from the Greek philosophical influence. My understanding, there is no scripture to support the soul being immortal. If someone is comforted by thinking their loved one who has died is in heaven am I going to tell them their wrong, No. Is it biblical? No, it comes from the Greek definition of death as the separation of the soul from the body.
The Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psuche, translated as the soul that is from Genesis 2:7 to Revelation 18:4. What is the soul? What is death if our soul which is the essence of who we are is immortal? If our soul that is who we are goes to heaven when this body dies why is there a resurrection of the dead?
The just and the unjust will be resurrected, Matt. 22:31Luke 14:14Acts 17:32Acts 23:6Acts 24:15Acts 24:211 Cor. 15:12,13,21,42Phil. 3:11Heb. 6:2. 1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1 Cor 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
I will leave it there; I know discussions of this subject can get pretty dogmatic and I do not want to show any disrespect to those who hold that we go to heaven when we die there are many.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:14,15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
I know we have different understandings of this and I am probably in the minority but that is ok. To me, it hinges on whether the soul is mortal or immortal and I have not found any scripture that supports the soul is immortal when comparing all scriptures about the soul, (I hope that makes sense).
Like 1 Thess. 4:13-17 My understanding is Paul is trying to ensure the people their loved ones who believed in Jesus who had died (asleep) would not be left out of the resurrection when Jesus returns. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If we believe Jesus died and rose we who die before He returns will also rise (resurrect, awake) from our sleep (death).
"God will bring with him" seems to fit the picture in Jude 1:14-15, but does it agree with being resurrected? My understanding is 1 Thess. 4:17 The earth is round and those resurrected when Jesus returns will meet Him in the air and He brings those with Him down with Him, not going back up.
2 Cor. 5:6-8 We all look forward to being with Jesus but when will we be absent from this body? What is the resurrection of the dead? Resurrection is an awakening, our soul is who we are the essence of our being that is what God resurrects to either eternal life or death, 1 Cor. 15:35-55.
My understanding is our soul is not immortal our soul, that is who we are, and as our body, it is mortal. We will die/sleep until we are resurrected into our immortal body and that is when we will be free and absent from this fleshly body we have now and will be with the Lord.
My understanding is all who have lived will be resurrected John 5:28-29. We will be on the earth when it is made new not in heaven.
If we do not agree on this subject it is ok as long as we treat each other with love and inspire each other to study.
Hello Ronald , I also do not believe that there is any evidence in the Bible to support the belief that our souls are immortal . You are not alone in this I can assure you and as you put so well , we can disagree or rather , we should be able to disagree , without becoming aggressive towards each other :) it's nice when we do agree though :):):) .
Thanks, it is nice and reassuring when someone agrees with our understanding of a subject in the Bible. Even if our understandings are different with someone's we should stay humble and inspire each other to study, even by studying the other person's views, we will grow even if our understanding stays the same.
I know over the years my understanding of some things has changed, (milk vs meat) we never know when the Holy Spirit will shine a light on a word or a verse. If we become dogmatic, we may be the one who is in the dark. Jesus said, "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" and "eyes to see." It is an open mind ready to learn not filled with pictures of preconceived ideas.
I'm not at all in agreement with the conclusions in your comment.
I do want to set the record straight on Acts 2. This chapter is talking about the pouring out of God the Holy Spirit on Pentecost where about 3000 were saved. This was the beginning of the Church Age where the Gospel was to go out into the world.
Peter's sermon spoke of the death and resurrection and ASCENSION of the Lord Jesus Christ into the Heaven.
The reference to David has to do with Psalm 16 and David, while often used in the Bible as a type of Christ, is not the object of Peter's sermon, but it is Christ Himself.
The ASCENSION being spoken of here is the ASCENSION of Christ after His Resurrection, and is not talking about a True Believer's soul which goes to be with Christ in heaven at death, as David's surely did.
I am very convinced that the child of whom David was speaking was "saved". The language can mean nothing else. And God had revealed this to David.
When God saves us He gives us a brand new Resurrected Soul which in itself cannot sin. When David's child died He therefore went immediately in his soul existence to be with Christ in heaven. And David, having confidence that he himself was also saved, could expect and therefore say that he also would go to be with Christ in heaven when he died physically. As does every True Believer when they die physically. And David and his son, like every True Believer, will have their salvation completed when they receive their Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day when the Resurrection and Rapture of all True Believers will occur. And David and his son, now in their complete personality, body and soul, will be "caught up to be with Christ in the air".
I am very certain of these things and believe the Bible leaves no doubt that this is the case.
I want to add something to my original note to you on this passage.
The key verse in this passage that cements the understanding that David's child was "saved" is 2 Samuel 12:23.
But now he is dead {physically dead and his body in the grave}, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him {in heaven to be with Christ when David dies physically, because that is where David's son now resides in his soul existence to await the Resurrection at the Last Day}, but he shall not return to me {in his physical body while David is still living physically}.
This fits perfectly with what the Bible teaches about the true nature of salvation and what happens to a True Believer when they die physically.
We can pray for physical healing for a loved one while they still have physical life, if it may be God's will to heal that person. And more importantly we may pray for spiritual healing, i.e. salvation for a loved one, if it might be God's will to save them, while they are still physically alive.
While it was not God's will to return David's child to physical health and the baby died. God most certainly did save David's son before he died physically.
And all of this was performed by God in accordance with His perfect plan. And the account provided for us in the Bible for our instruction.
I also want to address this matter of the Soul, both before and after becoming saved, i.e. becoming Born Again. I sense some very faulty understanding based on what the Bible teaches.
David DID NOT go to heaven when he physically died.
Acts 2:34 David IS NOT ASCENDED into the heavens .....
Acts 2:29 Men and Brethren, let me speak to you freely, the patriarch is DEAD and buried ....
John 3:13 No man hath ascended into heaven, but he which came down from heaven and is now in heaven.
ALL MEN ARE DEAD
ONLY Christ arose; we are joint HEIRS, you don't exist OTHER than being the BODY CHRIST DWELLS IN.
A NEW CREATION, as the FATHER and SON are ONE, you are now ONE IN THEM.
This is the GOSPEL, the KINGDOM of GOD, Christ in you, sinful flesh DIED on the cross, ONLY Christ arose, a New creation arose.
1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY has IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light .... in the presence of God ......
This mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ....
Ephesians 4:4 ....ONE body .... ONE spirit ......
Ephesians 4:6 .... ONE GOD .... Father of ALL ... above ALL ... through ALL ...in you ALL ...
ONE .... GOD ..... ALL in ALL ......
God bless you as he bring you to TRUTH.
I agree with you, this subject is rooted in the soul being immortal that came from the Greek philosophical influence. My understanding, there is no scripture to support the soul being immortal. If someone is comforted by thinking their loved one who has died is in heaven am I going to tell them their wrong, No. Is it biblical? No, it comes from the Greek definition of death as the separation of the soul from the body.
The Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psuche, translated as the soul that is from Genesis 2:7 to Revelation 18:4. What is the soul? What is death if our soul which is the essence of who we are is immortal? If our soul that is who we are goes to heaven when this body dies why is there a resurrection of the dead?
The just and the unjust will be resurrected, Matt. 22:31 Luke 14:14 Acts 17:32 Acts 23:6 Acts 24:15 Acts 24:21 1 Cor. 15:12,13,21,42 Phil. 3:11 Heb. 6:2. 1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1 Cor 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
I will leave it there; I know discussions of this subject can get pretty dogmatic and I do not want to show any disrespect to those who hold that we go to heaven when we die there are many.
God bless,
RLW
John 17:22 The glory that thou hast given me, I have GIVEN them; that they my be ONE, as we are ONE.
Oh! the grace of God that is given to man.
God bless you
God bless
RLW
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:14,15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
I know we have different understandings of this and I am probably in the minority but that is ok. To me, it hinges on whether the soul is mortal or immortal and I have not found any scripture that supports the soul is immortal when comparing all scriptures about the soul, (I hope that makes sense).
Like 1 Thess. 4:13-17 My understanding is Paul is trying to ensure the people their loved ones who believed in Jesus who had died (asleep) would not be left out of the resurrection when Jesus returns. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If we believe Jesus died and rose we who die before He returns will also rise (resurrect, awake) from our sleep (death).
"God will bring with him" seems to fit the picture in Jude 1:14-15, but does it agree with being resurrected? My understanding is 1 Thess. 4:17 The earth is round and those resurrected when Jesus returns will meet Him in the air and He brings those with Him down with Him, not going back up.
2 Cor. 5:6-8 We all look forward to being with Jesus but when will we be absent from this body? What is the resurrection of the dead? Resurrection is an awakening, our soul is who we are the essence of our being that is what God resurrects to either eternal life or death, 1 Cor. 15:35-55.
My understanding is our soul is not immortal our soul, that is who we are, and as our body, it is mortal. We will die/sleep until we are resurrected into our immortal body and that is when we will be free and absent from this fleshly body we have now and will be with the Lord.
My understanding is all who have lived will be resurrected John 5:28-29. We will be on the earth when it is made new not in heaven.
If we do not agree on this subject it is ok as long as we treat each other with love and inspire each other to study.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks, it is nice and reassuring when someone agrees with our understanding of a subject in the Bible. Even if our understandings are different with someone's we should stay humble and inspire each other to study, even by studying the other person's views, we will grow even if our understanding stays the same.
I know over the years my understanding of some things has changed, (milk vs meat) we never know when the Holy Spirit will shine a light on a word or a verse. If we become dogmatic, we may be the one who is in the dark. Jesus said, "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" and "eyes to see." It is an open mind ready to learn not filled with pictures of preconceived ideas.
God bless,
RLW
I have learned so very much from participating on this forum.
I have learned a lot as well, may God bless the ones who set up this forum.
God bless,
RLW
I'm not at all in agreement with the conclusions in your comment.
I do want to set the record straight on Acts 2. This chapter is talking about the pouring out of God the Holy Spirit on Pentecost where about 3000 were saved. This was the beginning of the Church Age where the Gospel was to go out into the world.
Peter's sermon spoke of the death and resurrection and ASCENSION of the Lord Jesus Christ into the Heaven.
The reference to David has to do with Psalm 16 and David, while often used in the Bible as a type of Christ, is not the object of Peter's sermon, but it is Christ Himself.
The ASCENSION being spoken of here is the ASCENSION of Christ after His Resurrection, and is not talking about a True Believer's soul which goes to be with Christ in heaven at death, as David's surely did.
I am very convinced that the child of whom David was speaking was "saved". The language can mean nothing else. And God had revealed this to David.
When God saves us He gives us a brand new Resurrected Soul which in itself cannot sin. When David's child died He therefore went immediately in his soul existence to be with Christ in heaven. And David, having confidence that he himself was also saved, could expect and therefore say that he also would go to be with Christ in heaven when he died physically. As does every True Believer when they die physically. And David and his son, like every True Believer, will have their salvation completed when they receive their Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day when the Resurrection and Rapture of all True Believers will occur. And David and his son, now in their complete personality, body and soul, will be "caught up to be with Christ in the air".
I am very certain of these things and believe the Bible leaves no doubt that this is the case.
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