Verse 43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." There have been many discussions over the years as to where paradise is. First of all, it is a Persian word. That is where the word paradise came from. In the New Testament, not only is it here, but it's also found in 2 Corinthians 12:3 where Paul says that he was caught up in the third heaven into paradise.
And again, in Revelation 2:7, where it is the reward for those overcomers, those that overcome the evil. It is also used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament for the Garden of Eden. It is called PARADISO, paradise, same word! But that doesn't answer the question where is it? Well, right before the term "in paradise" we have the answer. Jesus says you will be with "me" in paradise.
Wherever Jesus is, it is paradise. Where was Jesus that day or that night or the next day? Wherever Jesus was, the thief on the cross was with Him, and that's paradise.
I agree brother, wherever Jesus will be paradise. Good question, where is paradise? What do we see in Luke 23:39-43? Many see this as when we die, we go directly to paradise, can I say no you're wrong, No, it may give some comfort to someone to think their loved one is already there. Are there other understandings? yes.
In the original language, there was no punctuation and only upper-case letters so, the understanding may change by just a comma. "I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". Or, I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise, or would it read differently without the capitalizing of the word today?
Does the context of what was being said bring more light to this verse regardless of the comma? Two thieves were hanging next to Jesus, one railed at Jesus and the other rebuked the other thief and asked him if he did not fear God saying, they deserve their punishment, but Jesus did not do anything to deserve this, he asked Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom.
Would Jesus come into his kingdom on earth that day? Not yet. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? Jesus said in Matt. 12:40 He will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. And in John 20:17 this was after He resurrected, Jesus told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended unto His Father. Does this verse say we go to heaven when we die? No.
This is not to be dogmatic it is just another understanding of Luke 23:39-43. Where is Paradise I believe in the millennium the land of Israel will be almost like paradise, but I believe the New Earth will be where our paradise will be, and I do not think we can even imagine how beautiful it will be.
I can see how you come to this understanding. And yes, I agree that there are other understandings, probably many. I'm sure there are several that would differ from what you and I both shared. It looks as though we have a dilemma here. Jesus says "Today, you will be with me in paradise." So, we would have to examine the word "today" and try and figure out what today means. Your questions "Would Jesus come into his kingdom on earth that day?" and "Did Jesus go to paradise that day?" are valid questions.
Did the King James get it wrong by using the word today? It seems like a valid question to ask as to why Jesus would say "today, you will be with me in paradise" if He knew He would first be in the lower parts of the earth for three days and three nights.
Something else that might be considered as to why Jesus said "today" might be that the very same day He died and went into the lower parts of the earth, He went to a place called Hades which had two compartments. Ephesians Chapter 4 tells us that when Jesus died, that for three days and three nights, He was in the heart of the earth. He was down setting the prisoners free. He was down in Hades on the side where the people were with Abraham. We read about this in the presentation of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31.
Now, I cannot remember where I've read this, but from my studies, I have read some Jewish literature that said Abraham's bosom was synonymous with both heaven and paradise. That is how a Hebrew or Jewish person would describe Abraham's bosom, a place of safety and comfort, paradise like. So, this would make sense as to why Jesus would have said "today, you will be with me in paradise." Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was where Jesus was that day (Today), and the thief was with Him.
But then again, as you say, there can be more interpretations, and I'm sure there are many out there. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
That thief asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His Kingdom, an event which will take place far away in the future. Jesus answers him that today, not another day, not in a far away future he will be with Him in Paradise. Jesus tries to encourage that thief to withstand the torture of crucifixion and keep his faith in Him by putting faith and hope in his heart that it will not take long before all that ends, and the end for him and his faith in Him will be salvation. I don't think Jesus meant the literal garden of Eden or He tried to reveal something about paradise's position in Heaven or anything about where He was going to those 3 days but He just wanted to tell the poor guy that soon he will be in God's presence where everything is a complete happiness, a Paradise, as you said.
And something else. Often I think we christians make a mistake. Instead of taking God's Word simple, like a kid would do, we try to dig deep, deeper than we should do, even digging underneath the Hebrew or the grk as if there is always a hidden treasure underneath them. Sometimes that helps but most of the times the meanings are straightforward and simple. My advice is to not make a complicated thing out of simple things and sometimes end up in a confusion.
Ronald, all the Bibles I have read, including the grk ones, agree with KJB for the position of the comma. Anyway why would Jesus say that He says the truth today? Yesterday wasn't He saying the truth? Only in Jehovah's witnesses' Bible I've seen the comma at another position, and I think its wrong.
("Simeron" (mod. grk simera) means today. Pronounced in grk see-meh-rohn, stressed in "see". If one wants to pronounce words the grk way he must get accustomed to read in a continuous consonant-vowel rythem)
Thanks for the advice, but I don't believe I was making that mistake here. When it comes to God's word, I am always looking for deeper understanding. But I always have to keep in mind that the Lord is only going to give me what He knows I'm ready to handle. I do not approach the scripture looking for "hidden treasure," but I do look for greater understanding.
Thanks, I was saying how it is read, many read it, that the thief would be in paradise that day, not that the comma should be moved. Whether one believes in a immortal soul influences the understanding. I am not a Jehovah Witness.
Thanks for your reply. You have a better knowledge of Greek than I do, what I see is today, the Greek word , smeron, meaning today, this day, this very day. I think the word today is correct it is how we read the sentence and how it fits with what the thief said and when will he be in paradise, and if paradise is part of Hades or the new earth when it is all fulfilled.
Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: What do we understand the meaning to die/death? Platonism says it is a separation of the soul from the body and the souls go to Hades. If the soul is immortal what is appointed to die?
Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real story or is this a parable He told to people mainly the Pharisees? If we take it as reality, they were judged at death because Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, and the rich man went to a fiery place of torture. Does scripture support that? Dan. 12:2Matt. 25:31-34John 5:28-29Rev. 20:11-15.
The rich man was aware of where he was and talking and seems they have a body, asking for Lazarus to wet his finger and cool his tongue. Does scripture say we are awake in death? Job 14:10-12Ecc. 9:5-6. The context of this chapter is the love of money, and stewardship, Jesus was addressing this to the Pharisees, "No servant can serve two masters".
Eph. 4 I know some understand this to mean that when Jesus ascended into heaven, he led a host of captives who ascended into heaven with him. But in Acts 2:29-34 David is still in his grave and has not ascended, would David be left? John 3:13. Does this show Jesus ascended alone?
I will leave it there, I guess it comes down to if we believe our soul is immortal which influences how we understand the scripture. Just some other thoughts, like you said there are probably more understandings. Thanks again.
(Part 2):
Verse 43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." There have been many discussions over the years as to where paradise is. First of all, it is a Persian word. That is where the word paradise came from. In the New Testament, not only is it here, but it's also found in 2 Corinthians 12:3 where Paul says that he was caught up in the third heaven into paradise.
And again, in Revelation 2:7, where it is the reward for those overcomers, those that overcome the evil. It is also used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament for the Garden of Eden. It is called PARADISO, paradise, same word! But that doesn't answer the question where is it? Well, right before the term "in paradise" we have the answer. Jesus says you will be with "me" in paradise.
Wherever Jesus is, it is paradise. Where was Jesus that day or that night or the next day? Wherever Jesus was, the thief on the cross was with Him, and that's paradise.
I agree brother, wherever Jesus will be paradise. Good question, where is paradise? What do we see in Luke 23:39-43? Many see this as when we die, we go directly to paradise, can I say no you're wrong, No, it may give some comfort to someone to think their loved one is already there. Are there other understandings? yes.
In the original language, there was no punctuation and only upper-case letters so, the understanding may change by just a comma. "I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". Or, I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise, or would it read differently without the capitalizing of the word today?
Does the context of what was being said bring more light to this verse regardless of the comma? Two thieves were hanging next to Jesus, one railed at Jesus and the other rebuked the other thief and asked him if he did not fear God saying, they deserve their punishment, but Jesus did not do anything to deserve this, he asked Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom.
Would Jesus come into his kingdom on earth that day? Not yet. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? Jesus said in Matt. 12:40 He will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. And in John 20:17 this was after He resurrected, Jesus told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended unto His Father. Does this verse say we go to heaven when we die? No.
This is not to be dogmatic it is just another understanding of Luke 23:39-43. Where is Paradise I believe in the millennium the land of Israel will be almost like paradise, but I believe the New Earth will be where our paradise will be, and I do not think we can even imagine how beautiful it will be.
God bless,
RLW
I can see how you come to this understanding. And yes, I agree that there are other understandings, probably many. I'm sure there are several that would differ from what you and I both shared. It looks as though we have a dilemma here. Jesus says "Today, you will be with me in paradise." So, we would have to examine the word "today" and try and figure out what today means. Your questions "Would Jesus come into his kingdom on earth that day?" and "Did Jesus go to paradise that day?" are valid questions.
Did the King James get it wrong by using the word today? It seems like a valid question to ask as to why Jesus would say "today, you will be with me in paradise" if He knew He would first be in the lower parts of the earth for three days and three nights.
Something else that might be considered as to why Jesus said "today" might be that the very same day He died and went into the lower parts of the earth, He went to a place called Hades which had two compartments. Ephesians Chapter 4 tells us that when Jesus died, that for three days and three nights, He was in the heart of the earth. He was down setting the prisoners free. He was down in Hades on the side where the people were with Abraham. We read about this in the presentation of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31.
Now, I cannot remember where I've read this, but from my studies, I have read some Jewish literature that said Abraham's bosom was synonymous with both heaven and paradise. That is how a Hebrew or Jewish person would describe Abraham's bosom, a place of safety and comfort, paradise like. So, this would make sense as to why Jesus would have said "today, you will be with me in paradise." Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was where Jesus was that day (Today), and the thief was with Him.
But then again, as you say, there can be more interpretations, and I'm sure there are many out there. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
God Bless!!!
My understanding...
That thief asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His Kingdom, an event which will take place far away in the future. Jesus answers him that today, not another day, not in a far away future he will be with Him in Paradise. Jesus tries to encourage that thief to withstand the torture of crucifixion and keep his faith in Him by putting faith and hope in his heart that it will not take long before all that ends, and the end for him and his faith in Him will be salvation. I don't think Jesus meant the literal garden of Eden or He tried to reveal something about paradise's position in Heaven or anything about where He was going to those 3 days but He just wanted to tell the poor guy that soon he will be in God's presence where everything is a complete happiness, a Paradise, as you said.
And something else. Often I think we christians make a mistake. Instead of taking God's Word simple, like a kid would do, we try to dig deep, deeper than we should do, even digging underneath the Hebrew or the grk as if there is always a hidden treasure underneath them. Sometimes that helps but most of the times the meanings are straightforward and simple. My advice is to not make a complicated thing out of simple things and sometimes end up in a confusion.
Ronald, all the Bibles I have read, including the grk ones, agree with KJB for the position of the comma. Anyway why would Jesus say that He says the truth today? Yesterday wasn't He saying the truth? Only in Jehovah's witnesses' Bible I've seen the comma at another position, and I think its wrong.
("Simeron" (mod. grk simera) means today. Pronounced in grk see-meh-rohn, stressed in "see". If one wants to pronounce words the grk way he must get accustomed to read in a continuous consonant-vowel rythem)
GBU
Thanks for the advice, but I don't believe I was making that mistake here. When it comes to God's word, I am always looking for deeper understanding. But I always have to keep in mind that the Lord is only going to give me what He knows I'm ready to handle. I do not approach the scripture looking for "hidden treasure," but I do look for greater understanding.
Blessings to you also. Good to see you back!
Thanks, I was saying how it is read, many read it, that the thief would be in paradise that day, not that the comma should be moved. Whether one believes in a immortal soul influences the understanding. I am not a Jehovah Witness.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply. You have a better knowledge of Greek than I do, what I see is today, the Greek word , smeron, meaning today, this day, this very day. I think the word today is correct it is how we read the sentence and how it fits with what the thief said and when will he be in paradise, and if paradise is part of Hades or the new earth when it is all fulfilled.
Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: What do we understand the meaning to die/death? Platonism says it is a separation of the soul from the body and the souls go to Hades. If the soul is immortal what is appointed to die?
Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real story or is this a parable He told to people mainly the Pharisees? If we take it as reality, they were judged at death because Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, and the rich man went to a fiery place of torture. Does scripture support that? Dan. 12:2 Matt. 25:31-34 John 5:28-29 Rev. 20:11-15.
The rich man was aware of where he was and talking and seems they have a body, asking for Lazarus to wet his finger and cool his tongue. Does scripture say we are awake in death? Job 14:10-12 Ecc. 9:5-6. The context of this chapter is the love of money, and stewardship, Jesus was addressing this to the Pharisees, "No servant can serve two masters".
Eph. 4 I know some understand this to mean that when Jesus ascended into heaven, he led a host of captives who ascended into heaven with him. But in Acts 2:29-34 David is still in his grave and has not ascended, would David be left? John 3:13. Does this show Jesus ascended alone?
I will leave it there, I guess it comes down to if we believe our soul is immortal which influences how we understand the scripture. Just some other thoughts, like you said there are probably more understandings. Thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
Reminds me of John 14:3.
God bless you.
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