Worshipping in truth and in spirit. Does that mean by the letter/ordinances which refers to man's efforts or is it the effectual working of the Holyspirit that lines one heart to be in agreement with God's law? Not written on tablets of stone but written in our heart.
If that's so, is it just revealing the hidden wisdom of God in the scripture? Or does the Holyspirit also cause us to love God's statutes and causes us to function in the way scripture identifies us as desciples. "One who FOLLOWS Christ teachings"
(I'm singling out mature Christian here.)
If we are supposed to be moved by the Spirit "by the instrument of faith" unto good works but yet we don't display good works, then our faith is vain/dead, then is it fair to say that if we provide works THAT IS NOT BY THE INFLUENCE of the spirit that causes obedience to God's word then our work is vain.
Would the spirit move us to not only obey Christ but also "Paul's epistles?
Every man's work shall be tested by fire. We can be caught up so much in proving our worth amongst men we may never realize we are building a two-story hay house.
If there is no spiritual growth, we can become ineffective but yet satisfied because we're proud of the work we put in. And if we're content with that we become Lukewarm or perhaps never was actually converted!
This is why we examine ourselves "Examine the motive in everything you do and the spiritual fruit in our lives NOT the two story hay house.
Many will try to present their works to the Lord " Matthew 7:22-23." The Lord will say he NEVER knew you" and you have no works to confirm because your evidence went up in smoke!
Deny ourselves and do all things in the spirit to glorify God
The grk for "evidence" is "eleghos". The verb of this word means to check things, to observe if they are OK, observe how they are, their condition... ( A guard checks/observes/(grk elegchei) the surroundings of his post) So the verse says that "faith is the existence (means it brings into existence) things we hope for, checking/observing things we don't see" So if hope is accompanied with faith that God will answer then God will listen and make real what we ask from Him. With faith we observe (so we know) things we don't see, like say the spiritual world, the begining and the future of mankind, our salvation, etc. But whether we use that definition or the KJB it doesn't make any difference really, the outcome is still the same.
I don't know Hebrew, and to be honest I rarely look for the actual meaning of Hebr words, maybe sometimes when I want to compare the Masoritic text with the Septuagint text of the Old Testament. I believe like you that one doesn't need to know grk or hebr., (who actually has the courage to do so) to know the Bible (if that was the case someone would have definetely given a second thought to believe in God), but sometimes when we want to clarify a verse a bit more than it reads (if needed), then it is useful to have a grk or hebr dictionary, on the internet also there is a lot of onformation and one can compare those dictionaries together.
When I first joined this site (never before joined an Eng speaking site) I myself was very surprised to find out that people many times refer to the grk, or have some slogan/motto grk words like "agape" ("love" is as good).
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom He predestined, those He also called, whom He called, those He justified, whom He justified, those He glorified." ( Rom 8:28-29) This verse shows us that the Godhead chose ahead of creation to redeem eternally a people for Himself. This verse reveals His plan of action for those who believe to bring them to glory.
I do not believe that God predestined some for salvation and others for damnation unconditionally (not by anything a person does or does not do), but I also believe that God does not predestine someone conditionally (by what a person will do). But I think that God predestines because He knows all things and works out everything according to His will and purpose. In His wisdom He chose to save those He draws to Himself and to supply all that is needed for anyone's salvation, that no one can boast of bringing themselves to be saved by anything they do. This is for the goal glorifying Himself for the benefit of all He has made, exercising His love thru mercy and grace upon all who have sinned (all humans) and for whom His Son sacrificed His life to pay the penalty and receive the fullness of God's wrath for sin to win us.
I believe that any and all people can be saved. That all who call upon the name of the Lord receive the salvation wrought for them in Christ. I believe that Jesus' death was for the sins of every person who ever lived, not just for the elect. It is all-sufficient for the salvation of all and effaceable for all, but only appropriated by those who respond to the faith given to them through by the Holy Spirt to embrace what Jesus has provided.
I believe that God gives grace and a measure of faith to everyone, but some will act on this faith by embracing Jesus and HIs work for salvation and others will continually reject and turn against the grace and faith that God continually gives out.
Thank you Giannis I, too, agree that in Roman 9:22 is properly translated as fitted for destruction and it is not God doing the "fitting" nor the "hardening" spoken of in earlier verses of this chapter. The person, himself fits himself for destruction by continuing to refuse the offer of grace by the Holy Spirit to submit to God's will to believe the Gospel by faith which the Holy Spirit is happy to supply. One fits themselves for destruction by continuing to choose the sinful way rather than the good way laid out by God and hating God instead of loving Him.
I also believe that predestine does not refer to God predetermining some to be saved and others to be damned, but that God in His foreknowledge knew that man would fall by sin and that the plan of redemption was chosen prior to the fall and in His sovereignty predestined that any who believe the Gospel will be saved, adopted as children of God ( Eph. 1:5), justified and then glorified. Predestination refers to the end result of those who are chosen, not the choosing. It speaks of God pre-ordaining that all who come to faith in Jesus will receive all that salvation affords them through Christ. It is determining that Jesus would be the Savior by which sinful men will receive redemption, He being the Elect One of God and all who are in Christ are subsequently the elect.
Being chosen speaks of God selecting out people for His kingdom of salvation and glory. God has chose persons and predestined these person to something/for His purpose i.e for us to be "holy and without blame before Him in love" Eph. 1:4
Election has to do with being selected and predestination has to do with what we have been selected for, to be blessed "according to His purpose and grace". ( 1 Tim. 1:8-9)
God's foreknowledge in the context of election doesn't mean that He looked ahead to see what we will do and then reacting for He knows all things that will ever be and happen at once. His foreknowledge means He has always known His elect.
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
(I am not English but I think there is a diference between "predestinate" and "predestine"). The way I understand "predestinate" is that someone has already chosen/separated someone else for something specific (in our conversation this is salvation) according to their requirements or as they wish/like. Then in the above verse it also says "according to his good pleasure of his will". So often believers think that God has chosen some people for salvation, as He likes (the one He wishes to be saved), so no matter what I do this is fixed anyway by God. Is that right? Actually it is right since the desire/Will of God is ALL people to be saved. But also God knows who is going to believe and so He has already separated them for Himself. But He doesn't "fix it", simply He knows beforehand who (using their own free will) will eventually accept Jesus in their heart. And often He assists future believers to believe in Him (like Paul on his way to Damascus). But this belief is not in all believers. Often the above verse is combined with Romans 10:14-24. E.g. Verse 15, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Verses 20-21, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
So the conclusion is often that God shaped/made/formed some people for destruction and some not for it.
Verse 22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
If on some point you either misunderstand them or disagree with them . You stop and face each other and either get the misunderstanding resolved or come into agreement and carry on or if impossible you part company .
Paul is not an easy man to follow ,but we are in good company because Peter found somethings " hard to understand" .
Nevertheless what did Paul speak of those ministers to the church are to do?
Perfect the body " till we all come to a unity of THE faith"
To the same understanding ,of the same mind not his or mine or yours but Christs . " Let this mind be in you as it was in christ.
Not blindly ( without understanding) following the blind but as the Holy Spirit leads them so He leads you for did not Paul say " be ye followers of me even as I am of Christ "?
We have too many of Gods people blindly following they know not who or what who not only are hirelings but make " merchandise of Gods people"
Is it not written that if the Holy Spirit dwells in you ," you have no need of any to teach you" some then say ' well I have the Holy Spirit your not teaching me!. But that is not so. For has not zGod seen fit to give " teachers" to the church? Pray for them for they will have to answer to Almighty God how they have and what they have taught .
But it does mean that even as the Spirit of truth has borne witness with their spirit that they are now the children of zGod if so be that is the case . Then He the Spirit of truth will bare witness to the truth as it is also spoken in Christ .
Or not as the case may be . Thus by Ora time we learn to discern good from evil.
It is not then the blind leading the blind but the Holy Spirit leading us all .
For is it not written by John that if any be of God they will receive my words"?
We are not meant to blindly follow anyone . Least of all politicians and self appointed religious leaders .
The finest exponent of this is Paul the beloved Apostle .
The finest examples of it are the letters to the Romans and Hebrews .
In one of the UK newspapers they regularly publish the findings of the Appeal courts judgements .
I'm no lawyer but what they do is state the case which is up for appeal and then argue line line upon line step each following step till they reach their conclusion, A trained mind can follow the argument and if the argument is sound will reach the same conclusion . Thus Justice is seen or understood to be done by all .
But if the argument is not sound or has some fault in it then there may well be grounds for an appeal for you cannot reach the conclusion (whatever it is) if the steps do not properly follow the other ,
For you must start with the truth and with each step speak the truth and by such means you can ,if you follow the argument arrive at the truth . And the appeal is dismissed or upheld in law.
Paul in both those letters speaking primarily to Gentiles and Jews is seeking to prove some thing. To the Jews that Jesus was and is the promised messiah among other things .
To the Gentiles concerning the Law among other things and proving both Jew and gentile are both sold unto sin and the answer fir both .There is much more but what he is doing is arguing his case going from step to step climbing a mountain and as everyone does ,he stops for a rest and like everyone does looks back and sees where he has come thus far and says " therefore " in the light of all that has been said so far " count yourself dead to sin.." let's that sink in and continues the climb stopping here or there for the same reasons.
"How can two walk together unless they agree"? If anyone has ever had a serious conversation with their father or someone they respect you walk . Not looking at one another but often with heads down as you listen carefully to each other and considering what they say .
John the Baptist denied not the truth but confessed the truth "He was not the Christ"
Jesus " gave a good confession before Christ"
With the heart a man believes and with his mouth confession is made unto salvation .
"God demands we speak the truth in the inward man "
"If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us"
God is light and when we draw near to God He reveals that which is hidden .
For man is lost and in darkness and does ot know even the condition of his own heart. " The heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all others and who can know it?"
But God in his great mercy and love leads us to the truth about our own heart .
In such a manner it is irrefutable and undeniable to ourselves and in private .
If we can't recognise the truth about ourselves who we do know ,how then could E recognise the truth about God who we don't?
And if we do not speak the truth ( confess it to God) about ourselves who we do know . How then could we speak the truth about God who we don't yet know?
False religions do not speak the truth about God about themselves or about you .
Yet all claim to know God and say theirs is the way .
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the Life no man cometh unto the Father accept by me"
He spoke the truth did the truth walked in the truth and was and is the truth and the Light of the world .
Thank you brother for that pertinent message focussed on Truth. Just to share a little of my own experience in Pakistan on this matter of the Word of God, which is Truth, & how it can be translated & give a different meaning to another of a different language group.
In preparation to share in a Bible study with a group of believers, I spoke to my Pakistani brother, who was fluent in both Urdu & Punjabi, about certain words that I would refer to in the study. My passage was from 1 John 4:7-11. As is common practise, the speaker would first verify certain words that the translator may not be familiar with or if the meaning given is different to what the Bible teaches. I didn't refer to the Greek here, as this was unnecessary for the audience, but asked this brother how he understood & would translate the word, 'propitiation' (as in verse 10)?
He mentioned the Urdu word he would use in his translation, would be 'kaffare', as this is the word given in the Urdu Bible. I then asked what he personally understood of that word. He replied, 'when we see that word, it means 'atonement'. I asked, 'do you see any other meaning in it?' Apparently not. So, I needed to include the full meaning of propitiation, which is not just an atonement, but really an appeasement of an Holy God angered by sin & its hold on man. The brother didn't know any of this & hopefully, by using my English Bible (& by the way, the Greek also agrees to it), some believers were brought to a better knowledge of the "breadth, length, depth and height" of God's love towards us sinners.
So, in one sense, we are a different language group to those of NT days who spoke other languages, with the NT written in Koine Greek. As much as our KJV NT is properly translated from Greek, often a better appreciation can be had if we could actually read it in Greek & not rely on a translation which at best may not deliver the best meaning in English. What we have is good & profitable; the original would be better.
Thanks for that ,I find languages fascinating. Having married a French woman it was interesting how many English words and French are much the same but used very differently.
Desolate being one . In English desolation is like a land stripped bare of vegetation after some catastrophe or a city in ruins . In France if you went into a shop and they did not have what you wanted in stock they would say ( in French) I am desolated we don't have any . A somewhat exaggerated form of "I'm sorry ".
In comparison the French language is very limited English being very rich and of a much greater range of its expressive forms .
Capable of expressing quite abstract and complex concepts .
I have no objections at all in people wanting to learn Hebrew or Greek ( how could I?) what my contention is if you will is that learning ' the original text' no more guarantees you understanding the Word of God as knowing English does . My argument to uphold that is that neither Saul of Tarsus or many of the Pharisees or Sadducee's or Drs of the law despite it being their mother tongue understood it either . Subjecting the Word of God to their intellect rather than subjecting their minds to the Spirit of God .
Saul who later became Paul spent three years unlearning what he had learnt at the feet of Gamaliel and got things so right at the feet of Jesus .
As I have already said many if not most of the new translations boast in their " better understanding" but show their lack in the very first verse of the very first book ! I know of two versions that have wrongly translated a verse in revelations 3 from " IN" to 'ON' and so make themselves God .
How is that possible?
Men lean more upon their own understanding either of Greek hebrew or English ! Rather upon Him who leads us into all truth .
I think if a man learns Greek or Hebrew which cannot be unprofitable has to be even more careful to lean not upon his understanding for reasons given above in those examples .
I'm like you Gerald, I wouldn't know a Greek salad if I ate it, but I do study or verify Greek words with the Strongs concordance. It's been very profitable. I have gotten help from other brothers and it didn't often give new revelation but gave deeper and enhanced meaning. for example In Matthew 4:1-11 one word translated makes all the world the difference but it didn't give me new revelation because there is other scriptures that painted the same picture but the Greek or Hebrew gave more light.
Here's is the verse;
"And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread."
In the Greek the verse reads "SINCE" thou be the Son of God. The devil knew exactly who Jesus was.
In fact the demons knew who he was through out the Gospels.
This cause us to look at the word tempted a little closer in the Greek.
The Holyspirit is who drove Christ in the wilderness to be tempted/proven. "or to confirm Jesus is who the scriptures says he is".
You see an example of this in Luke 14:19. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
This test is not to see if he would fail or not it's to show that he won't.
It's getting late, Perhaps others can elaborate more.
It is also worth noting the devil left Him " only for a season" in fact while in the wilderness it was the devil saying "if thou be the Son of God " yet at Jordan it was God the zFather who had declared He was ,thus not letting God justify Him but as all temptations are to get him to react and work in the flesh .Your right the devil knew who He was also .
But at Calvary it was men who were tempting Him with the same words .
My original contention was concerning ' predestination' which I still think should be the right English word for that verse for reasons already given . What is interesting though that outside of Christ we are not destined for anything save hell and damnation.
But in Christ we ARE destined for greater things a higher destiny and for those works preordained from before the foundation of the world .
Thanks for that Gerald - I hear what you're saying. We can be so engrossed & nit-picky on the wording & grammar of the Scriptural texts but in the end miss out on what the Holy Spirit is trying to get through to us. But for the believer who has both the grasp of the original language & able to correctly interpret & "divide" the Scriptures, to me, is a wonderful asset. And our two brothers who regularly share their knowledge in such a manner, have been vital to my greater appreciation & understanding of the Word. Unfortunately, for both Hebrew & Greek, I can only depend on the published lexicons for these languages, which sometimes can even fall short of what a word or thought is actually perceived by their respective speakers. Thanks for your input - much appreciated.
I once had a number of conversations with a sincere and dedicated Moslem who on one occasion held in his hand a book with thee Koran on one page and on the opposite the English translation of it .
The conversation had been going on for a while and at one point he said " only thecKoran in Arabic is the true word of God.'.
I looked at him in surprise and replied ' have you been lying to me then? ( we had been speaking in English) he replied ," No!"
I then pointed to his book and said is that too lying?
He replied ,No.
Then I said is God an Arab? He looked astonished and replied no.
I said is God an englishman? They thought once perhaps He was ,but God is not .
Is God Chinese? Indian? And a few others to press home the point .
I then pointed out that all these languages are mens languages therefore God must as it were have His own language ..
It is not then the message of God that changes but how accurate the translation .
I am not saying the Koran is the Word of God he said it was . Nor do I think or believe the god of Islam is the God of Abraham . If it was there would be no war in the Middle East . For one thing .
I am saying however that God is quite capable of inspiring a child of Isreal to write what should be written in Hebrew .
Even as He is capable of inspiring men to understand what is written and give them the wherewithal to accurately translate the message .
I can think of any number of reasons why this in the main is not done .
The primary cause is that man no longer leans upon the Lord ,but rather upon ; they assert their understanding of the ' original text' but do not know the originator of them .
Today much of the world thinks that they have their truth and another has their truth .
If that was true then clearly everyone must have their truth . If that too was true ,everyone must be speaking the truth and no one is lying !
I don't believe it . For one thing ,I'm not a three year old who with some justification thinks everyone tells them the truth .sadly this too is not true especially around Christmas perhaps .
But also I know for a certainty that I have not always told the truth as I know shy reader of this has not always told the truth .
But surely most people still know when they are speaking the truth and when they are not?
But if any were to still hold to the idea that they have 'their truth'. Then why are they disappointed and sometimes very angry when they find out someone has lied to them ? For is that not by their reasoning simply their truth?
But this strange idea has also crept onto the church with the idea ' well that's your interpretation ,I have mine '.
Or perhaps an even worse one .This translation and that translation .
It might be argued Everyman is entitled to his own opinion , but it would be absurd to assert that every opinion is of equal merit .
In this world an opinion any man can have ,but in the things of God it is not an opinion I want it's the truth .
For if I get that wrong the consequences are eternal in one way or the other .
A question of asked but like Pontius Pilate most never wait for an answer .
For he is recorded as asking that question to Jesus ,but is also recorded as " walking away" after saying it .
In truth as to the Lords innocence he already knew the truth and publicly stated it at least twice .
If anyone has encountered some injustice take a look at Jesus who was tried three times in one night , publicly declared innocent in one ,condemned to death when under oath confessed the truth He was the Son of God in another .
And still condemned to death and was crucified .
Pilate thought Jesus was standing before him . In truth he was standing before the Lord .
So what is truth ?
If you don't understand the truth about anything . You are to all intents and purposes in the dark . Unable to make a right or good decision. Or know which way to go .
When you know the truth you see which way to go and what is the right decision.
The truth then is the light that shines in the darkness .
This then is the truth :
"In the beginning God created the heaveN and the earth "
And it was not heaveN that was in darkness but the earth . Genesis 1:2
For that heaven needed no sun or moon for zGod is the light thereof .
And it is not God who is in darkness but man . For God is light and in Him there is no darkness .
Thus it is that earth that needed heavens light and it is man that " sat in darkness .."
man was created for the light .
His eyes respond to light ,wether he is conscious or not . Put a man in a room with no light for long enough and he will suffer .
Man was created for the light .indeed his default position is that you and I should always be told the truth .
But while all men expect it they do not always tell it .
Yet if that Greek is true and it was 'destined ' that word destined in English would imply if not state that there was or is something inherently worthy of that which it is destined for .
That clearly and theologically and doctrinally is impossible .
For no man is worthy of anything and there is nothing in man that is destined for anything but hell and damnation .
Therefore while you can argue the Greek word means 'destined ' in the context of zGod Almighty the right English word to be used is " predestined" pre - before . For anything we might become has nothing to do with us or inherent in us ( for in our flesh there is no good thing) but was and Is due to the foreknowledge and determined council of His own will and it's out working .
As for any other translations they simply make the matter worse .
This is no slight on the previous writer ,but rather to show how translations cannot be automatically go from one to the other .
It is an awful responsibility to translate the Word of God and no man should take it upon himself to do so. For to get it wrong iscto at best mislead and confuse people who read it thinking they have the light when in fact it is darkness .
For the record ,I do not know Greek or indeed Hebrew . But I do know English . If then someone says they have a better understanding of the text in the original language let them explain their understanding in English . If they can't or don't or say you are not qualified then you should seriously doubt their understanding .
Another writer explained wisely how in Pakistan he had to be careful in making sure the translators had it right . So do we in English .
" If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him "
Clearly then if we don't we won't .
" and the government shall be upon His shoulders"
The church which is His body not only has limbs ,hands and feet but shoulders .
The government of the Kingdom of zGod shall be on His shoulders .
This is not a ' government' like those of the "Nicolaitans which I hate " who seperate themselves and Lord it over the Laity they have made .
Hirelings who not only " make merchandise of Gods people" but when they see the wolves coming flee and the sheep are scattered " John 12 . But take note the hirelings are caught not the sheep .
In Ezekiel there are dire warnings for pastors who love not the sheep as THE shepherd of man's souls loves them .
But all the offices of the church as listed from Apostles to evangelists have but one purpose . The perfection of the church ." Till we all come to a unity of the faith unto the fullness and stature of Christ unto the perfect man Ephesians .
If we are faithful in little we we will be given much to rule over .
Note it is not if we are ' successful' as the world counts success . Calvary on the face of it was disaster and victory by the enemy .
But faithful . The Philadelphian church in its own eyes was poor ,but in Gods "was rich "
The Laodocian church in its own eyes was rich but in Gods eyes was poor wretched and blind .
Churchill prior to WW2 was vilified and rejected by all parties in particular but come 1940 was the only one qualified to become Prime Minister .
The Lord Jesus Christ proved Himself worthy to be King of Kings , All the kingdoms of this world past and present are on a foundation of treachery, murder and war . Including Great Britain and if the UK turned out different it's only because of the grace of zGod and the zBible that was once honoured by this nation .
In as much asit does not it will if it does not repent become as any other Godless nation . Perhaps worse for we have known far better .
But what says the scriptures?" The letter killeth but the Spirit gives life "
We have by the grace of God the body of truth ; the scriptures .
We have also by the grace of God the " Spirit of truth ".
This self same Spirit ,is not an influence , or some other abstract ' thing' emanating from God . "He" is a person who can be resisted ,grieved, quenched and blasphemed against .
Was the same Spirit that inspired men to so write the scriptures . If He was so needed to inspire men to write them . He is in equal measure so needed to understand what is written. "For what knoweth the things of man save thecspirit thatbis in man? So like wise what knoweth the things of zGod save the Spurit of God" who knows the mind of God and the deep things of zGod ".
Therefore we need both the scriptures or body of truth as well as the Spirit of truth to lead us into all truth .
There is a lot of confusion today in many places because many hold to scriptures alone doctrine but see no need for the Spirit . Leaning more upon their understanding of Greek or Hebrew than upon the Lord .
While others " by their traditions have made the Word of God of none effect "
The last day church of Laodocia in its own eyes is "rich increased with goods ( prosperous) and in need of nothing ,when in spiritual reality is poor wretched and blind and in need of eye salve "
Yet what says the Spirit to the churches?" Behold I stand at the door and knock " a call to the whole church to repent then .
If any man has ears to hear and opens the door " to them is the promise given .
Consider that after the resurrection No door was an obstical to the Lord ,
We should not take this great statement of fact first spoken of at the Reformation out of context .
For that statement was in response to the vain assertion by some religionists that their traditions were to be held in higher authority than the scriptures .
This is where man falls into error . " For all scripture is given by God and is good for correction ,reproof and instruction in righteousness " 1Timothy".
Man any man is not infallible only God is . Even if you spoke the truth that does not make you infallible you simply bare bare witness to the truth that God is .
For a man may hear the truth , he may see the truth , he can speak the truth . He can meditate on the truth he can know the truth . The truth can be in him . He can walk in the truth and even do the truth . But even with all that no man save the Lord Jesus Christ say ," I am the truth ".
Man has no light of his own , he is though like the moon a witness for the truth . For the moon when it still shines even in the darkest night ,bares witness to the truth that the sun still shines and there is coming a perfect day .
Even the Lord said "the words that I speak are not my words ." The difference with Him though is that He was born sinless and the only begotten Son ,we are not .
He proved to be " The truth " by being born in the time frame the scriptures foretold he would be born . In the place he would be born ,where he would grow up . How he would live ,by what power and authority , the miracles , how he would've rejected ,betrayed ,suffer and be crucified . How he would be buried and would rise again on the third day .all foreseen and recorded for our sakes so that we might know the truth and recognise Him.
The scriptures alone then are the only sure and certain foundation for any real faith in God . For faith in God comes by hearing and by that understanding the word of God " and as it is written good for correction ,reproof and instruction in righteousness .
Predestination : A thorny subject for some .primarily because the approach to the subject and attempts of explanation are but on an intellectual level and unbiblical . For others they reject the truth of it because they can see the faults in such methods and jump to the conclusion that the whole concept is therefore false .
People who jump to conclusions rarely if ever arrive at the truth .
It cannot be denied however for clearly the scriptures speak of it and use the word ( Ephesians) predestination
For the record I don't pretend or think I can explain it all or cover the subject fully here but we can lay a foundation for our thinking .
Every " sound doctrine " of God has its first mention in the book of Genesis and the best place then is to start there .
In almost the very beginning it is written of the law of God that states " every seed brings forth fruit after its own kind"
A tomato seed is then predetermined by God to only bring forth tomatoes .nothing else .
Every seed no matter what it is will and can only bring forth fruit after its own kind .
Every seed is predetermined pre ordained predestined to do so .
This law then applies to a " corruptible seed " which if corrupted can on,y bring forth corruption unto death .
The same law applies to the " incorruptible seed which is the Word of God " which therefore will bring forth righteousness unto life "
Did not Jesus speaking of Himself say " unless a seed or corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it abideth alone "? But if it does " it brings forth much fruit " What sort of fruit ? After its own kind .
Thus a corrupted seed is predestined to bring forth corruption unto death .
An incorruptible seed is predestined to bring righteousness unto life .
You MUST be born again ,not of corruptible seed but of the incorruptible seed which is the Word of God .
For if we are born again then we are not only translated from the kingdom of darkness to thecKingdom of Gods dear Son.
I was unable to finish the last sentence so if you don't mind I'll finish it here fir clarity .
We are therefore not only " translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Gods dear Son .
But we are also translated from one predestination to another !
I am also judt reminded and it is confirmed that ' rapture' is not really accurate and can actually mislead if your not careful .
The better word would be " translated " for not only are we ,as it is written " translated " spiritually from one kingdom to the other other . We ,if found ready and alive will be translated physically from the earth to meet the Lord in the air and in a twinkling of an eye be changed physically as well .from mortal to immortal from a corrupt body to an incorruptible body .
Do you mean Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"? Well, this is one of those cases that knowledge of Greek is useful. The word that is translated as "predestined" in English is the grk word "proorisas" which means "destined", not "predestined"
Other English translations translate it as "chose", "decide", "made selection",...even some as "predestined", but the right translation is "destined"
Thanks for your reply . I must confess to no knowledge of Greek but do have some knowledge of English though even that is limited . But I am wary of this habit of always referring to ' to the original text' be it Greek or Hebrew as proof of the correct meaning . For I am aware that in this day and age people do not accept the plain text of a good translation into English . I hold that there are many bad ones some boasting in their " better understanding " but proving they have little or no understanding .Most in the very first chapter of the very first sentence .
Moreover I also know that every langauge has a great deal of surrounding understanding that is quite simply taken for granted when it is your mother tongue. But unknown to the learner of the language. Who may take years to grasp it albeit they may have the mechanics .
Yet even with this fact and Hebrew was the Pharisees mother tongue did they understand the message? No.
Saul of Tarsus who's mother tongue was Hebrew probably knew Greek well ( I don't know) and Latin ( ditto) did not understand the scriptures either . And once converted and filled with the Spirit spent over three years in the " Arabian desert " getting his vast biblical knowledge in its right order and able to " rightly divide " the Word of God .
Having said all this , I do not doubt your sincerity or that you think this the correct greek .
I cant argue with you in greek . But I perhaps ' argue' ( in the correct sense) in English .
You say the greek word means " destined" my reply would be when was it destined? Was it not Before the foundations of the world ? Then it was predestined before the event . Even if as you say it means destined it was destined before the foundation of the earth , which in my mind is not exact enough in English and contained in the context .
To say we were destined implies an inherent property in ourselves for something. This is not true .I was predestined by the foreknowledge and working of God .
Water baptism is a WORK. Just like physical circumssion is a WORK. Neither water baptism nor physical circumssion ever saved anyone nor guaranteed their salvation. These were physical signs pointing to the Nature of Salvation. We are all DEAD in trespasses and sins before God saves us.
God does all the WORK in saving His Elect. He chose them before the foundation of the world. He paid the full penalty for their sins. He draws them and brings them under the hearing of His Word. He applys their salvation to their life by giving them a resurrected soul which cannot sin (Born Again). God the Holy Spirt actualy dwells within them. He will complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual body on the Last Day (the rapture).
When someone becomes Born Again they become a New Creature in Christ, they become a new personality, if you will. Where before they were Born Again, they lusted after sin both in body and soul; they were dead in trespasses and sins. In our resurrected soul we only want to be obedient to any command in the Bible that may apply to us. But we still have a body that lusts after sin so we still commit sin. But the more obedient we are the more happy we will be. But no sin can ever cause us to lose our salvation since all of our sins have been paid for.
These aspects of God's salvation program have been constant throught time. Abel and Abraham and David and Paul experienced exactly the same salvation as anyone that becomes saved today.
Anyone that is in doubt of their salvation may still cry out to God for mercy in the very real Hope that he might save them. Just like the Ninevites. Wonderfully God is still saving during this time of the Great Tribulation and will continue to do so right up until the very Last Day.
This sure sounds like a strawman argument and almost like an anti-Jesus message. It's a strawman, because who here is making the claim that the immersion in water alone saves you? The person you replied to didn't make that claim and I don't see anyone else making that claim, but this comes across as anti-baptism messaging randomly posted like its a campaign.
When we discussed this before and I thought you admitted that you weren't against baptism and that it wasn't "bad" after all and you said I misunderstood your position. Do you still think baptism is good? Do you think its good to obey what Jesus says? Because Jesus said to be baptized in Mark 16:16, do you agree?
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus said this. Christians follow Christ (Jesus). If they don't they probably aren't Christians. As a Christian I see two words in this first sentence that seem important: believeth and baptized. I think if it was "bad" then Jesus might have said to not believe and don't be baptized. Or if only one of things was bad Jesus might have said to only do one, but don't do the other, but no, He flat out says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Ok, that sounds important if someone wants to be saved then. Who am I to question Jesus. As a Jesus follower I am going to trust His words as truth. And if I see someone post something attacking Jesus or telling others to not do what Jesus says or to twist words and say what Jesus "really meant" is something else, then I am going to shine a spotlight on that. Light is the best disinfectant. Truth needs to replace lies.
Also, there's plenty of other scripture that supports baptism as being good like Acts 2:38. Doing good works and actions is good. satan will claim the opposite. Obeying God is good. satan will deceive people into believing the opposite. This is a war of truth vs lies.
We are really talking here about the Nature of Salvation.
Eph 2:8-10
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So what is a "work" or a "good work"? A "good work" is obedience to any commandment of God that applies to us.
During the Church Age (which I believe has now ended and we are livling in the period that God calls The Great Tribulation, Matt 24 & 1 Peter 4:17) we were commanded to be baptzed in water if we identified with a local church. But water baptism was a cermonial sign, like the Lords Supper (Communion), and we no longer are to observe these ceremonial signs and that believers actually have been commanded to get out of the local churches. Just like when Jesus came physically the first time, God was finished with National Isreal as His corporate representation and we no longer observe the cermonial laws of the old testiment.
But even during the Church Age, water baptism was still a WORK which we were commanded to observe and did not contiribute to our salvation in any way. Just as the observance of the Old Testement ceremonial laws did not contirbute to the salvation of any Old Testement believer.
Mark 16:16 is talking about the baptism that SAVES, it is the baptism that God performs in washing away our sins. Not water baptism.
And if we are TRUSTING in any WORK that we do, including the WORK of water baptism as initiating, maintaining, assisting, supporting, etc. our salvation in any way, we are walikng on very dangereous ground (Read Galations, in particular Gal 2:16) and falling into the same snare as some of the early New Testement Jews. Note also in Gal 2:16 that the faith by which we are saved is Christ's faith, not our faith.
David this is just a continuation of the previous strawman argument. I have a feeling you didn't comprehend my comment. The topic is you criticizing baptism, but Jesus said to be baptized.
It sounds like you think baptism is bad as you have posted more than once like you're trying to discredit it. I asked if you support it and you dodged the question. Jesus already said to be baptized so it seems like dangerous ground trying to undermine anything He says and convince others they don't need to be baptized.
You claimed Mark 16:16 doesn't mean water baptism, but it does mean water baptism. The Bible doesn't back up your claim.
It seems like you have something against baptism and are trying to convince others to not get baptized by your comments attacking it and calling it 'works'.
This is the last I will comment to you in this thread, but when I see anti-baptism propaganda I will try my best to defend Jesus and stand up for His teachings, especially on a Bible website. It's surprising what I see on here sometimes.
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Acts 22:16
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Acts 2:41
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
Vessels "fitted" for distruction? The "grk" for fitted is "katartismena", it actually means "trained"(used for education purposes). "Trained" by whom? By themselves, by devil, but not by God. Those vessels with their own free will have allowed devil or the sinful world or their own deceived heart to "train/educate" them for distruction. I think we agree on those, but we can also see that words like "predestinated, predestined" or "fitted" may lead to a wrong conclusion. I would think that words like "determined, dedicated, intended" as well as "trained/educated" are more close to the proper meaning. Maybe "destined" is not the proper word since it correlates with "destiny" (here you may be right), not with "destination" which I had in mind. So sorry for the misunderstanding.
About translations now. A problem when translating from any language to any other is often the different expresions used for the same things. So sometimes if a text is translated exactly word by word, say from Eng. to grk., it may not be understood since grk doen't use the same expressions. So a translator has to decide whether to translate a passage exactly knowing that the translation may confuse the reader or decide to interprete it to make it have the original meaning. But in this case the translation is "free" and the outcome depends on the beliefs or thoughts or intentions of the translator. Different translators may interprete the same expression in different ways.
I find that some verses in eng. are not very accurate like that definition of faith in Hebr. "faith is the substance of things we hope for, evidence of things not seen" The grk for "substance" is "hypostasis". If substance means something like a chemical substance or the nature of something, what it consists of, then this is not what the grk says. Hypostasis in this verse means "existence", the "being" of something. And this is how I read it in grk Bibles.
You may be right Gerald about predestination, I may have understood that word wrongly or express my thoughts wrongly and a wrong conclusion came out, but let's leave it for tomorrow, I haven't got any time for a detailed answer now.
But as far as grk or hebr are concerned nobody I think claimed that if one knows them then they know the Bible better than others but it is often useful for clarifying some verses, nothing more than that GBU
The 12 apostles did hat God had commanded them to do, go into all of the world and make disciples of all nation, not just the Jews. They baptized new believers in water as Jesus commanded in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They healed people of diseases and did miracles. They dedicated their lives to spreading the Gospel of Jesus to all who would receive it and be converted. The spread of Christianity to the whole known world at that time is attributed to all of these people called by Jesus along with Paul. And I am thankful they all were obedient even to the point of martyrdom, which happened to all but John.
Yet a careful reading of the scriptures shows they actually stated in Jerusalem . Perhaps thinking that as the Lord said it in that order we must do it in that order . It was not until persecution came that those 3000+ disciples were scattered to the four winds " preaching the gospel" that the whole world soon knew of it . There is written evidence that the gospels reached the shores of the UK in only 30 to 50 years of Gods fulfilment of His promise to mankind in the garden of Eden.
No wonder the great host of heaven being a very disciplined lot were silent while the angel gave the message to the shepherds but once given could no longer keep their joy to themselves and let loose! And heaven broke its banks .
I would suggest the church has lost much ground for what that generation achieved in spite of great persecution we seem to have achieved very little . Some seem to think those of the reformation has very little faith . Yet they with their " little" turned the world upside down ,yet they who boast in so much do very little .
I'm reminded of the Tower of Babel . For God told that generation to go out into all the world. But they found a nice spot and said let us make a name for ourselves and build us a tower .
Gerald, It may be so that the apostles and disciples stayed in Jerusalem as a congregation for a time, but, obviously, someone took the Gospel to Samaria and Antioch (which was not Paul). So, it is obvious that the apostles and disciples did spread the gospel outside of Jerusalem. James was the church leader of the Jerusalem church. Peter it seems was a part for a while, but he may have used it as a home base from where he went out to do missionary work. Paul speaks of Peter fellowshipping among the Gentiles where Paul preached.
There is not mention in the Scriptures of where the other disciples lived or preached at. But it is thought that they brought the gospel to northern Africa, India, Syria, Spain, and as you said, to the British Isles.
Dear Gerald, Interesting reply. I always find it helpful to know the Greek or Hebrew meaning of words used in our English Bibles.
On another trac. The Scripture nowhere says that Paul's time in the desert with the Lord was to teach Paul to "rightly divide the
Scriptures" as you stated. Although I do think that Jesus opened up the Scriptures to Paul as He did to the apostles before He ascended. I do think that Jesus enlightened Paul's intellect to gain deep understanding of the Gospel Jesus preached, concerning grace and the law, and connecting the O.T. to what Jesus told Him about Himself.
Jesus chose a very gifted man, Paul, to be the be a missionary evangelist on a large scale and an inspired writer of Scripture to help the Christians in the churches he planted and spoke in their congregations multiple times. Paul knew the O.T. better than most Scribes and Pharisees. He had first-hand experience with the Greek and Roman world, knew Hebrew, Greek, and Latin and was used of God to spread the one Gospel Jesus taught Him and the apostles to communicate to the world. Paul was chosen by God to write the profound spiritual truths Jesus taught him in ways that others can understand and wrote out defenses for the faith against false teachers. The other apostles did the same thing, but we do not have their writings preserved like Paul's.
Those who put together the canon of the New Testament did have many writings to consider, but chose the ones that had been read to most of the churches over time, were accepted as Scriptural truth by most of the churches of the time, and presented doctrine in truthful ways. Paul was one of a select group of disciples to have written letters to their congregations and many of his letters were well preserved with multiple copies of the same letters to check for accuracy. Thus, the epistles are filled mostly with Paul's writing.
The other disciples/apostles, bishops, elders, preached and wrote the same things Paul preached and wrote.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment to start a new comment thread.
Enter new comment
Worshipping in truth and in spirit. Does that mean by the letter/ordinances which refers to man's efforts or is it the effectual working of the Holyspirit that lines one heart to be in agreement with God's law? Not written on tablets of stone but written in our heart.
If that's so, is it just revealing the hidden wisdom of God in the scripture? Or does the Holyspirit also cause us to love God's statutes and causes us to function in the way scripture identifies us as desciples. "One who FOLLOWS Christ teachings"
(I'm singling out mature Christian here.)
If we are supposed to be moved by the Spirit "by the instrument of faith" unto good works but yet we don't display good works, then our faith is vain/dead, then is it fair to say that if we provide works THAT IS NOT BY THE INFLUENCE of the spirit that causes obedience to God's word then our work is vain.
Would the spirit move us to not only obey Christ but also "Paul's epistles?
Every man's work shall be tested by fire. We can be caught up so much in proving our worth amongst men we may never realize we are building a two-story hay house.
If there is no spiritual growth, we can become ineffective but yet satisfied because we're proud of the work we put in. And if we're content with that we become Lukewarm or perhaps never was actually converted!
This is why we examine ourselves "Examine the motive in everything you do and the spiritual fruit in our lives NOT the two story hay house.
Many will try to present their works to the Lord " Matthew 7:22-23." The Lord will say he NEVER knew you" and you have no works to confirm because your evidence went up in smoke!
Deny ourselves and do all things in the spirit to glorify God
God bless.
The grk for "evidence" is "eleghos". The verb of this word means to check things, to observe if they are OK, observe how they are, their condition... ( A guard checks/observes/(grk elegchei) the surroundings of his post) So the verse says that "faith is the existence (means it brings into existence) things we hope for, checking/observing things we don't see" So if hope is accompanied with faith that God will answer then God will listen and make real what we ask from Him. With faith we observe (so we know) things we don't see, like say the spiritual world, the begining and the future of mankind, our salvation, etc. But whether we use that definition or the KJB it doesn't make any difference really, the outcome is still the same.
I don't know Hebrew, and to be honest I rarely look for the actual meaning of Hebr words, maybe sometimes when I want to compare the Masoritic text with the Septuagint text of the Old Testament. I believe like you that one doesn't need to know grk or hebr., (who actually has the courage to do so) to know the Bible (if that was the case someone would have definetely given a second thought to believe in God), but sometimes when we want to clarify a verse a bit more than it reads (if needed), then it is useful to have a grk or hebr dictionary, on the internet also there is a lot of onformation and one can compare those dictionaries together.
When I first joined this site (never before joined an Eng speaking site) I myself was very surprised to find out that people many times refer to the grk, or have some slogan/motto grk words like "agape" ("love" is as good).
Have a blessed night.
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom He predestined, those He also called, whom He called, those He justified, whom He justified, those He glorified." ( Rom 8:28-29) This verse shows us that the Godhead chose ahead of creation to redeem eternally a people for Himself. This verse reveals His plan of action for those who believe to bring them to glory.
I do not believe that God predestined some for salvation and others for damnation unconditionally (not by anything a person does or does not do), but I also believe that God does not predestine someone conditionally (by what a person will do). But I think that God predestines because He knows all things and works out everything according to His will and purpose. In His wisdom He chose to save those He draws to Himself and to supply all that is needed for anyone's salvation, that no one can boast of bringing themselves to be saved by anything they do. This is for the goal glorifying Himself for the benefit of all He has made, exercising His love thru mercy and grace upon all who have sinned (all humans) and for whom His Son sacrificed His life to pay the penalty and receive the fullness of God's wrath for sin to win us.
I believe that any and all people can be saved. That all who call upon the name of the Lord receive the salvation wrought for them in Christ. I believe that Jesus' death was for the sins of every person who ever lived, not just for the elect. It is all-sufficient for the salvation of all and effaceable for all, but only appropriated by those who respond to the faith given to them through by the Holy Spirt to embrace what Jesus has provided.
I believe that God gives grace and a measure of faith to everyone, but some will act on this faith by embracing Jesus and HIs work for salvation and others will continually reject and turn against the grace and faith that God continually gives out.
I also believe that predestine does not refer to God predetermining some to be saved and others to be damned, but that God in His foreknowledge knew that man would fall by sin and that the plan of redemption was chosen prior to the fall and in His sovereignty predestined that any who believe the Gospel will be saved, adopted as children of God ( Eph. 1:5), justified and then glorified. Predestination refers to the end result of those who are chosen, not the choosing. It speaks of God pre-ordaining that all who come to faith in Jesus will receive all that salvation affords them through Christ. It is determining that Jesus would be the Savior by which sinful men will receive redemption, He being the Elect One of God and all who are in Christ are subsequently the elect.
Being chosen speaks of God selecting out people for His kingdom of salvation and glory. God has chose persons and predestined these person to something/for His purpose i.e for us to be "holy and without blame before Him in love" Eph. 1:4
Election has to do with being selected and predestination has to do with what we have been selected for, to be blessed "according to His purpose and grace". ( 1 Tim. 1:8-9)
God's foreknowledge in the context of election doesn't mean that He looked ahead to see what we will do and then reacting for He knows all things that will ever be and happen at once. His foreknowledge means He has always known His elect.
Hi Gerald
Lets go back to Ephesians 1:5
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
(I am not English but I think there is a diference between "predestinate" and "predestine"). The way I understand "predestinate" is that someone has already chosen/separated someone else for something specific (in our conversation this is salvation) according to their requirements or as they wish/like. Then in the above verse it also says "according to his good pleasure of his will". So often believers think that God has chosen some people for salvation, as He likes (the one He wishes to be saved), so no matter what I do this is fixed anyway by God. Is that right? Actually it is right since the desire/Will of God is ALL people to be saved. But also God knows who is going to believe and so He has already separated them for Himself. But He doesn't "fix it", simply He knows beforehand who (using their own free will) will eventually accept Jesus in their heart. And often He assists future believers to believe in Him (like Paul on his way to Damascus). But this belief is not in all believers. Often the above verse is combined with Romans 10:14-24. E.g. Verse 15, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Verses 20-21, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
So the conclusion is often that God shaped/made/formed some people for destruction and some not for it.
Verse 22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
If on some point you either misunderstand them or disagree with them . You stop and face each other and either get the misunderstanding resolved or come into agreement and carry on or if impossible you part company .
Paul is not an easy man to follow ,but we are in good company because Peter found somethings " hard to understand" .
Nevertheless what did Paul speak of those ministers to the church are to do?
Perfect the body " till we all come to a unity of THE faith"
To the same understanding ,of the same mind not his or mine or yours but Christs . " Let this mind be in you as it was in christ.
Not blindly ( without understanding) following the blind but as the Holy Spirit leads them so He leads you for did not Paul say " be ye followers of me even as I am of Christ "?
We have too many of Gods people blindly following they know not who or what who not only are hirelings but make " merchandise of Gods people"
Is it not written that if the Holy Spirit dwells in you ," you have no need of any to teach you" some then say ' well I have the Holy Spirit your not teaching me!. But that is not so. For has not zGod seen fit to give " teachers" to the church? Pray for them for they will have to answer to Almighty God how they have and what they have taught .
But it does mean that even as the Spirit of truth has borne witness with their spirit that they are now the children of zGod if so be that is the case . Then He the Spirit of truth will bare witness to the truth as it is also spoken in Christ .
Or not as the case may be . Thus by Ora time we learn to discern good from evil.
It is not then the blind leading the blind but the Holy Spirit leading us all .
For is it not written by John that if any be of God they will receive my words"?
We are not meant to blindly follow anyone . Least of all politicians and self appointed religious leaders .
Nor indeed to blindly follow true men of God .
The finest exponent of this is Paul the beloved Apostle .
The finest examples of it are the letters to the Romans and Hebrews .
In one of the UK newspapers they regularly publish the findings of the Appeal courts judgements .
I'm no lawyer but what they do is state the case which is up for appeal and then argue line line upon line step each following step till they reach their conclusion, A trained mind can follow the argument and if the argument is sound will reach the same conclusion . Thus Justice is seen or understood to be done by all .
But if the argument is not sound or has some fault in it then there may well be grounds for an appeal for you cannot reach the conclusion (whatever it is) if the steps do not properly follow the other ,
For you must start with the truth and with each step speak the truth and by such means you can ,if you follow the argument arrive at the truth . And the appeal is dismissed or upheld in law.
Paul in both those letters speaking primarily to Gentiles and Jews is seeking to prove some thing. To the Jews that Jesus was and is the promised messiah among other things .
To the Gentiles concerning the Law among other things and proving both Jew and gentile are both sold unto sin and the answer fir both .There is much more but what he is doing is arguing his case going from step to step climbing a mountain and as everyone does ,he stops for a rest and like everyone does looks back and sees where he has come thus far and says " therefore " in the light of all that has been said so far " count yourself dead to sin.." let's that sink in and continues the climb stopping here or there for the same reasons.
"How can two walk together unless they agree"? If anyone has ever had a serious conversation with their father or someone they respect you walk . Not looking at one another but often with heads down as you listen carefully to each other and considering what they say .
"Thy Word is truth " confessed Jesus .
John the Baptist denied not the truth but confessed the truth "He was not the Christ"
Jesus " gave a good confession before Christ"
With the heart a man believes and with his mouth confession is made unto salvation .
"God demands we speak the truth in the inward man "
"If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us"
God is light and when we draw near to God He reveals that which is hidden .
For man is lost and in darkness and does ot know even the condition of his own heart. " The heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all others and who can know it?"
But God in his great mercy and love leads us to the truth about our own heart .
In such a manner it is irrefutable and undeniable to ourselves and in private .
If we can't recognise the truth about ourselves who we do know ,how then could E recognise the truth about God who we don't?
And if we do not speak the truth ( confess it to God) about ourselves who we do know . How then could we speak the truth about God who we don't yet know?
False religions do not speak the truth about God about themselves or about you .
Yet all claim to know God and say theirs is the way .
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the Life no man cometh unto the Father accept by me"
He spoke the truth did the truth walked in the truth and was and is the truth and the Light of the world .
In preparation to share in a Bible study with a group of believers, I spoke to my Pakistani brother, who was fluent in both Urdu & Punjabi, about certain words that I would refer to in the study. My passage was from 1 John 4:7-11. As is common practise, the speaker would first verify certain words that the translator may not be familiar with or if the meaning given is different to what the Bible teaches. I didn't refer to the Greek here, as this was unnecessary for the audience, but asked this brother how he understood & would translate the word, 'propitiation' (as in verse 10)?
He mentioned the Urdu word he would use in his translation, would be 'kaffare', as this is the word given in the Urdu Bible. I then asked what he personally understood of that word. He replied, 'when we see that word, it means 'atonement'. I asked, 'do you see any other meaning in it?' Apparently not. So, I needed to include the full meaning of propitiation, which is not just an atonement, but really an appeasement of an Holy God angered by sin & its hold on man. The brother didn't know any of this & hopefully, by using my English Bible (& by the way, the Greek also agrees to it), some believers were brought to a better knowledge of the "breadth, length, depth and height" of God's love towards us sinners.
So, in one sense, we are a different language group to those of NT days who spoke other languages, with the NT written in Koine Greek. As much as our KJV NT is properly translated from Greek, often a better appreciation can be had if we could actually read it in Greek & not rely on a translation which at best may not deliver the best meaning in English. What we have is good & profitable; the original would be better.
Desolate being one . In English desolation is like a land stripped bare of vegetation after some catastrophe or a city in ruins . In France if you went into a shop and they did not have what you wanted in stock they would say ( in French) I am desolated we don't have any . A somewhat exaggerated form of "I'm sorry ".
In comparison the French language is very limited English being very rich and of a much greater range of its expressive forms .
Capable of expressing quite abstract and complex concepts .
I have no objections at all in people wanting to learn Hebrew or Greek ( how could I?) what my contention is if you will is that learning ' the original text' no more guarantees you understanding the Word of God as knowing English does . My argument to uphold that is that neither Saul of Tarsus or many of the Pharisees or Sadducee's or Drs of the law despite it being their mother tongue understood it either . Subjecting the Word of God to their intellect rather than subjecting their minds to the Spirit of God .
Saul who later became Paul spent three years unlearning what he had learnt at the feet of Gamaliel and got things so right at the feet of Jesus .
As I have already said many if not most of the new translations boast in their " better understanding" but show their lack in the very first verse of the very first book ! I know of two versions that have wrongly translated a verse in revelations 3 from " IN" to 'ON' and so make themselves God .
How is that possible?
Men lean more upon their own understanding either of Greek hebrew or English ! Rather upon Him who leads us into all truth .
I think if a man learns Greek or Hebrew which cannot be unprofitable has to be even more careful to lean not upon his understanding for reasons given above in those examples .
GB
Here's is the verse;
"And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread."
In the Greek the verse reads "SINCE" thou be the Son of God. The devil knew exactly who Jesus was.
In fact the demons knew who he was through out the Gospels.
This cause us to look at the word tempted a little closer in the Greek.
The Holyspirit is who drove Christ in the wilderness to be tempted/proven. "or to confirm Jesus is who the scriptures says he is".
You see an example of this in Luke 14:19. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
This test is not to see if he would fail or not it's to show that he won't.
It's getting late, Perhaps others can elaborate more.
God bless.
But at Calvary it was men who were tempting Him with the same words .
GB
My original contention was concerning ' predestination' which I still think should be the right English word for that verse for reasons already given . What is interesting though that outside of Christ we are not destined for anything save hell and damnation.
But in Christ we ARE destined for greater things a higher destiny and for those works preordained from before the foundation of the world .
GB
I agree.
GB
I once had a number of conversations with a sincere and dedicated Moslem who on one occasion held in his hand a book with thee Koran on one page and on the opposite the English translation of it .
The conversation had been going on for a while and at one point he said " only thecKoran in Arabic is the true word of God.'.
I looked at him in surprise and replied ' have you been lying to me then? ( we had been speaking in English) he replied ," No!"
I then pointed to his book and said is that too lying?
He replied ,No.
Then I said is God an Arab? He looked astonished and replied no.
I said is God an englishman? They thought once perhaps He was ,but God is not .
Is God Chinese? Indian? And a few others to press home the point .
I then pointed out that all these languages are mens languages therefore God must as it were have His own language ..
It is not then the message of God that changes but how accurate the translation .
I am not saying the Koran is the Word of God he said it was . Nor do I think or believe the god of Islam is the God of Abraham . If it was there would be no war in the Middle East . For one thing .
I am saying however that God is quite capable of inspiring a child of Isreal to write what should be written in Hebrew .
Even as He is capable of inspiring men to understand what is written and give them the wherewithal to accurately translate the message .
I can think of any number of reasons why this in the main is not done .
The primary cause is that man no longer leans upon the Lord ,but rather upon ; they assert their understanding of the ' original text' but do not know the originator of them .
Today much of the world thinks that they have their truth and another has their truth .
If that was true then clearly everyone must have their truth . If that too was true ,everyone must be speaking the truth and no one is lying !
I don't believe it . For one thing ,I'm not a three year old who with some justification thinks everyone tells them the truth .sadly this too is not true especially around Christmas perhaps .
But also I know for a certainty that I have not always told the truth as I know shy reader of this has not always told the truth .
But surely most people still know when they are speaking the truth and when they are not?
But if any were to still hold to the idea that they have 'their truth'. Then why are they disappointed and sometimes very angry when they find out someone has lied to them ? For is that not by their reasoning simply their truth?
But this strange idea has also crept onto the church with the idea ' well that's your interpretation ,I have mine '.
Or perhaps an even worse one .This translation and that translation .
It might be argued Everyman is entitled to his own opinion , but it would be absurd to assert that every opinion is of equal merit .
In this world an opinion any man can have ,but in the things of God it is not an opinion I want it's the truth .
For if I get that wrong the consequences are eternal in one way or the other .
A question of asked but like Pontius Pilate most never wait for an answer .
For he is recorded as asking that question to Jesus ,but is also recorded as " walking away" after saying it .
In truth as to the Lords innocence he already knew the truth and publicly stated it at least twice .
If anyone has encountered some injustice take a look at Jesus who was tried three times in one night , publicly declared innocent in one ,condemned to death when under oath confessed the truth He was the Son of God in another .
And still condemned to death and was crucified .
Pilate thought Jesus was standing before him . In truth he was standing before the Lord .
So what is truth ?
If you don't understand the truth about anything . You are to all intents and purposes in the dark . Unable to make a right or good decision. Or know which way to go .
When you know the truth you see which way to go and what is the right decision.
The truth then is the light that shines in the darkness .
This then is the truth :
"In the beginning God created the heaveN and the earth "
And it was not heaveN that was in darkness but the earth . Genesis 1:2
For that heaven needed no sun or moon for zGod is the light thereof .
And it is not God who is in darkness but man . For God is light and in Him there is no darkness .
Thus it is that earth that needed heavens light and it is man that " sat in darkness .."
man was created for the light .
His eyes respond to light ,wether he is conscious or not . Put a man in a room with no light for long enough and he will suffer .
Man was created for the light .indeed his default position is that you and I should always be told the truth .
But while all men expect it they do not always tell it .
Indeed demand the truth but do not speak it .
That clearly and theologically and doctrinally is impossible .
For no man is worthy of anything and there is nothing in man that is destined for anything but hell and damnation .
Therefore while you can argue the Greek word means 'destined ' in the context of zGod Almighty the right English word to be used is " predestined" pre - before . For anything we might become has nothing to do with us or inherent in us ( for in our flesh there is no good thing) but was and Is due to the foreknowledge and determined council of His own will and it's out working .
As for any other translations they simply make the matter worse .
This is no slight on the previous writer ,but rather to show how translations cannot be automatically go from one to the other .
It is an awful responsibility to translate the Word of God and no man should take it upon himself to do so. For to get it wrong iscto at best mislead and confuse people who read it thinking they have the light when in fact it is darkness .
For the record ,I do not know Greek or indeed Hebrew . But I do know English . If then someone says they have a better understanding of the text in the original language let them explain their understanding in English . If they can't or don't or say you are not qualified then you should seriously doubt their understanding .
Another writer explained wisely how in Pakistan he had to be careful in making sure the translators had it right . So do we in English .
Clearly then if we don't we won't .
" and the government shall be upon His shoulders"
The church which is His body not only has limbs ,hands and feet but shoulders .
The government of the Kingdom of zGod shall be on His shoulders .
This is not a ' government' like those of the "Nicolaitans which I hate " who seperate themselves and Lord it over the Laity they have made .
Hirelings who not only " make merchandise of Gods people" but when they see the wolves coming flee and the sheep are scattered " John 12 . But take note the hirelings are caught not the sheep .
In Ezekiel there are dire warnings for pastors who love not the sheep as THE shepherd of man's souls loves them .
But all the offices of the church as listed from Apostles to evangelists have but one purpose . The perfection of the church ." Till we all come to a unity of the faith unto the fullness and stature of Christ unto the perfect man Ephesians .
If we are faithful in little we we will be given much to rule over .
Note it is not if we are ' successful' as the world counts success . Calvary on the face of it was disaster and victory by the enemy .
But faithful . The Philadelphian church in its own eyes was poor ,but in Gods "was rich "
The Laodocian church in its own eyes was rich but in Gods eyes was poor wretched and blind .
Churchill prior to WW2 was vilified and rejected by all parties in particular but come 1940 was the only one qualified to become Prime Minister .
The Lord Jesus Christ proved Himself worthy to be King of Kings , All the kingdoms of this world past and present are on a foundation of treachery, murder and war . Including Great Britain and if the UK turned out different it's only because of the grace of zGod and the zBible that was once honoured by this nation .
In as much asit does not it will if it does not repent become as any other Godless nation . Perhaps worse for we have known far better .
But what says the scriptures?" The letter killeth but the Spirit gives life "
We have by the grace of God the body of truth ; the scriptures .
We have also by the grace of God the " Spirit of truth ".
This self same Spirit ,is not an influence , or some other abstract ' thing' emanating from God . "He" is a person who can be resisted ,grieved, quenched and blasphemed against .
Was the same Spirit that inspired men to so write the scriptures . If He was so needed to inspire men to write them . He is in equal measure so needed to understand what is written. "For what knoweth the things of man save thecspirit thatbis in man? So like wise what knoweth the things of zGod save the Spurit of God" who knows the mind of God and the deep things of zGod ".
Therefore we need both the scriptures or body of truth as well as the Spirit of truth to lead us into all truth .
There is a lot of confusion today in many places because many hold to scriptures alone doctrine but see no need for the Spirit . Leaning more upon their understanding of Greek or Hebrew than upon the Lord .
While others " by their traditions have made the Word of God of none effect "
The last day church of Laodocia in its own eyes is "rich increased with goods ( prosperous) and in need of nothing ,when in spiritual reality is poor wretched and blind and in need of eye salve "
Yet what says the Spirit to the churches?" Behold I stand at the door and knock " a call to the whole church to repent then .
If any man has ears to hear and opens the door " to them is the promise given .
Consider that after the resurrection No door was an obstical to the Lord ,
Why then is the door of His church one?
Who thinks He is inside ?
But clearly is outside knocking for entrance .
A contradiction not to be seriously considered .
We should not take this great statement of fact first spoken of at the Reformation out of context .
For that statement was in response to the vain assertion by some religionists that their traditions were to be held in higher authority than the scriptures .
This is where man falls into error . " For all scripture is given by God and is good for correction ,reproof and instruction in righteousness " 1Timothy".
Man any man is not infallible only God is . Even if you spoke the truth that does not make you infallible you simply bare bare witness to the truth that God is .
For a man may hear the truth , he may see the truth , he can speak the truth . He can meditate on the truth he can know the truth . The truth can be in him . He can walk in the truth and even do the truth . But even with all that no man save the Lord Jesus Christ say ," I am the truth ".
Man has no light of his own , he is though like the moon a witness for the truth . For the moon when it still shines even in the darkest night ,bares witness to the truth that the sun still shines and there is coming a perfect day .
Even the Lord said "the words that I speak are not my words ." The difference with Him though is that He was born sinless and the only begotten Son ,we are not .
He proved to be " The truth " by being born in the time frame the scriptures foretold he would be born . In the place he would be born ,where he would grow up . How he would live ,by what power and authority , the miracles , how he would've rejected ,betrayed ,suffer and be crucified . How he would be buried and would rise again on the third day .all foreseen and recorded for our sakes so that we might know the truth and recognise Him.
The scriptures alone then are the only sure and certain foundation for any real faith in God . For faith in God comes by hearing and by that understanding the word of God " and as it is written good for correction ,reproof and instruction in righteousness .
People who jump to conclusions rarely if ever arrive at the truth .
It cannot be denied however for clearly the scriptures speak of it and use the word ( Ephesians) predestination
For the record I don't pretend or think I can explain it all or cover the subject fully here but we can lay a foundation for our thinking .
Every " sound doctrine " of God has its first mention in the book of Genesis and the best place then is to start there .
In almost the very beginning it is written of the law of God that states " every seed brings forth fruit after its own kind"
A tomato seed is then predetermined by God to only bring forth tomatoes .nothing else .
Every seed no matter what it is will and can only bring forth fruit after its own kind .
Every seed is predetermined pre ordained predestined to do so .
This law then applies to a " corruptible seed " which if corrupted can on,y bring forth corruption unto death .
The same law applies to the " incorruptible seed which is the Word of God " which therefore will bring forth righteousness unto life "
Did not Jesus speaking of Himself say " unless a seed or corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it abideth alone "? But if it does " it brings forth much fruit " What sort of fruit ? After its own kind .
Thus a corrupted seed is predestined to bring forth corruption unto death .
An incorruptible seed is predestined to bring righteousness unto life .
You MUST be born again ,not of corruptible seed but of the incorruptible seed which is the Word of God .
For if we are born again then we are not only translated from the kingdom of darkness to thecKingdom of Gods dear Son.
But from one t.
Very Impressive writtngs Gerald.
God bless you.
I was unable to finish the last sentence so if you don't mind I'll finish it here fir clarity .
We are therefore not only " translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Gods dear Son .
But we are also translated from one predestination to another !
I am also judt reminded and it is confirmed that ' rapture' is not really accurate and can actually mislead if your not careful .
The better word would be " translated " for not only are we ,as it is written " translated " spiritually from one kingdom to the other other . We ,if found ready and alive will be translated physically from the earth to meet the Lord in the air and in a twinkling of an eye be changed physically as well .from mortal to immortal from a corrupt body to an incorruptible body .
Glory to God forever .
Well spoken brother.
Do you mean Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"? Well, this is one of those cases that knowledge of Greek is useful. The word that is translated as "predestined" in English is the grk word "proorisas" which means "destined", not "predestined"
Other English translations translate it as "chose", "decide", "made selection",...even some as "predestined", but the right translation is "destined"
GBU
Moreover I also know that every langauge has a great deal of surrounding understanding that is quite simply taken for granted when it is your mother tongue. But unknown to the learner of the language. Who may take years to grasp it albeit they may have the mechanics .
Yet even with this fact and Hebrew was the Pharisees mother tongue did they understand the message? No.
Saul of Tarsus who's mother tongue was Hebrew probably knew Greek well ( I don't know) and Latin ( ditto) did not understand the scriptures either . And once converted and filled with the Spirit spent over three years in the " Arabian desert " getting his vast biblical knowledge in its right order and able to " rightly divide " the Word of God .
Having said all this , I do not doubt your sincerity or that you think this the correct greek .
I cant argue with you in greek . But I perhaps ' argue' ( in the correct sense) in English .
You say the greek word means " destined" my reply would be when was it destined? Was it not Before the foundations of the world ? Then it was predestined before the event . Even if as you say it means destined it was destined before the foundation of the earth , which in my mind is not exact enough in English and contained in the context .
To say we were destined implies an inherent property in ourselves for something. This is not true .I was predestined by the foreknowledge and working of God .
God does all the WORK in saving His Elect. He chose them before the foundation of the world. He paid the full penalty for their sins. He draws them and brings them under the hearing of His Word. He applys their salvation to their life by giving them a resurrected soul which cannot sin (Born Again). God the Holy Spirt actualy dwells within them. He will complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual body on the Last Day (the rapture).
When someone becomes Born Again they become a New Creature in Christ, they become a new personality, if you will. Where before they were Born Again, they lusted after sin both in body and soul; they were dead in trespasses and sins. In our resurrected soul we only want to be obedient to any command in the Bible that may apply to us. But we still have a body that lusts after sin so we still commit sin. But the more obedient we are the more happy we will be. But no sin can ever cause us to lose our salvation since all of our sins have been paid for.
These aspects of God's salvation program have been constant throught time. Abel and Abraham and David and Paul experienced exactly the same salvation as anyone that becomes saved today.
Anyone that is in doubt of their salvation may still cry out to God for mercy in the very real Hope that he might save them. Just like the Ninevites. Wonderfully God is still saving during this time of the Great Tribulation and will continue to do so right up until the very Last Day.
Praise God for so Great Salvation.
This sure sounds like a strawman argument and almost like an anti-Jesus message. It's a strawman, because who here is making the claim that the immersion in water alone saves you? The person you replied to didn't make that claim and I don't see anyone else making that claim, but this comes across as anti-baptism messaging randomly posted like its a campaign.
When we discussed this before and I thought you admitted that you weren't against baptism and that it wasn't "bad" after all and you said I misunderstood your position. Do you still think baptism is good? Do you think its good to obey what Jesus says? Because Jesus said to be baptized in Mark 16:16, do you agree?
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus said this. Christians follow Christ (Jesus). If they don't they probably aren't Christians. As a Christian I see two words in this first sentence that seem important: believeth and baptized. I think if it was "bad" then Jesus might have said to not believe and don't be baptized. Or if only one of things was bad Jesus might have said to only do one, but don't do the other, but no, He flat out says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Ok, that sounds important if someone wants to be saved then. Who am I to question Jesus. As a Jesus follower I am going to trust His words as truth. And if I see someone post something attacking Jesus or telling others to not do what Jesus says or to twist words and say what Jesus "really meant" is something else, then I am going to shine a spotlight on that. Light is the best disinfectant. Truth needs to replace lies.
Also, there's plenty of other scripture that supports baptism as being good like Acts 2:38. Doing good works and actions is good. satan will claim the opposite. Obeying God is good. satan will deceive people into believing the opposite. This is a war of truth vs lies.
God bless.
We are really talking here about the Nature of Salvation.
Eph 2:8-10
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So what is a "work" or a "good work"? A "good work" is obedience to any commandment of God that applies to us.
During the Church Age (which I believe has now ended and we are livling in the period that God calls The Great Tribulation, Matt 24 & 1 Peter 4:17) we were commanded to be baptzed in water if we identified with a local church. But water baptism was a cermonial sign, like the Lords Supper (Communion), and we no longer are to observe these ceremonial signs and that believers actually have been commanded to get out of the local churches. Just like when Jesus came physically the first time, God was finished with National Isreal as His corporate representation and we no longer observe the cermonial laws of the old testiment.
But even during the Church Age, water baptism was still a WORK which we were commanded to observe and did not contiribute to our salvation in any way. Just as the observance of the Old Testement ceremonial laws did not contirbute to the salvation of any Old Testement believer.
Mark 16:16 is talking about the baptism that SAVES, it is the baptism that God performs in washing away our sins. Not water baptism.
And if we are TRUSTING in any WORK that we do, including the WORK of water baptism as initiating, maintaining, assisting, supporting, etc. our salvation in any way, we are walikng on very dangereous ground (Read Galations, in particular Gal 2:16) and falling into the same snare as some of the early New Testement Jews. Note also in Gal 2:16 that the faith by which we are saved is Christ's faith, not our faith.
It sounds like you think baptism is bad as you have posted more than once like you're trying to discredit it. I asked if you support it and you dodged the question. Jesus already said to be baptized so it seems like dangerous ground trying to undermine anything He says and convince others they don't need to be baptized.
You claimed Mark 16:16 doesn't mean water baptism, but it does mean water baptism. The Bible doesn't back up your claim.
It seems like you have something against baptism and are trying to convince others to not get baptized by your comments attacking it and calling it 'works'.
This is the last I will comment to you in this thread, but when I see anti-baptism propaganda I will try my best to defend Jesus and stand up for His teachings, especially on a Bible website. It's surprising what I see on here sometimes.
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Acts 22:16
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Acts 2:41
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
Jesus: be baptized
satan: don't be baptized
Vessels "fitted" for distruction? The "grk" for fitted is "katartismena", it actually means "trained"(used for education purposes). "Trained" by whom? By themselves, by devil, but not by God. Those vessels with their own free will have allowed devil or the sinful world or their own deceived heart to "train/educate" them for distruction. I think we agree on those, but we can also see that words like "predestinated, predestined" or "fitted" may lead to a wrong conclusion. I would think that words like "determined, dedicated, intended" as well as "trained/educated" are more close to the proper meaning. Maybe "destined" is not the proper word since it correlates with "destiny" (here you may be right), not with "destination" which I had in mind. So sorry for the misunderstanding.
About translations now. A problem when translating from any language to any other is often the different expresions used for the same things. So sometimes if a text is translated exactly word by word, say from Eng. to grk., it may not be understood since grk doen't use the same expressions. So a translator has to decide whether to translate a passage exactly knowing that the translation may confuse the reader or decide to interprete it to make it have the original meaning. But in this case the translation is "free" and the outcome depends on the beliefs or thoughts or intentions of the translator. Different translators may interprete the same expression in different ways.
I find that some verses in eng. are not very accurate like that definition of faith in Hebr. "faith is the substance of things we hope for, evidence of things not seen" The grk for "substance" is "hypostasis". If substance means something like a chemical substance or the nature of something, what it consists of, then this is not what the grk says. Hypostasis in this verse means "existence", the "being" of something. And this is how I read it in grk Bibles.
But as far as grk or hebr are concerned nobody I think claimed that if one knows them then they know the Bible better than others but it is often useful for clarifying some verses, nothing more than that GBU
Part 2.
The 12 apostles did hat God had commanded them to do, go into all of the world and make disciples of all nation, not just the Jews. They baptized new believers in water as Jesus commanded in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They healed people of diseases and did miracles. They dedicated their lives to spreading the Gospel of Jesus to all who would receive it and be converted. The spread of Christianity to the whole known world at that time is attributed to all of these people called by Jesus along with Paul. And I am thankful they all were obedient even to the point of martyrdom, which happened to all but John.
No wonder the great host of heaven being a very disciplined lot were silent while the angel gave the message to the shepherds but once given could no longer keep their joy to themselves and let loose! And heaven broke its banks .
I would suggest the church has lost much ground for what that generation achieved in spite of great persecution we seem to have achieved very little . Some seem to think those of the reformation has very little faith . Yet they with their " little" turned the world upside down ,yet they who boast in so much do very little .
I'm reminded of the Tower of Babel . For God told that generation to go out into all the world. But they found a nice spot and said let us make a name for ourselves and build us a tower .
There is not mention in the Scriptures of where the other disciples lived or preached at. But it is thought that they brought the gospel to northern Africa, India, Syria, Spain, and as you said, to the British Isles.
On another trac. The Scripture nowhere says that Paul's time in the desert with the Lord was to teach Paul to "rightly divide the
Scriptures" as you stated. Although I do think that Jesus opened up the Scriptures to Paul as He did to the apostles before He ascended. I do think that Jesus enlightened Paul's intellect to gain deep understanding of the Gospel Jesus preached, concerning grace and the law, and connecting the O.T. to what Jesus told Him about Himself.
Jesus chose a very gifted man, Paul, to be the be a missionary evangelist on a large scale and an inspired writer of Scripture to help the Christians in the churches he planted and spoke in their congregations multiple times. Paul knew the O.T. better than most Scribes and Pharisees. He had first-hand experience with the Greek and Roman world, knew Hebrew, Greek, and Latin and was used of God to spread the one Gospel Jesus taught Him and the apostles to communicate to the world. Paul was chosen by God to write the profound spiritual truths Jesus taught him in ways that others can understand and wrote out defenses for the faith against false teachers. The other apostles did the same thing, but we do not have their writings preserved like Paul's.
Those who put together the canon of the New Testament did have many writings to consider, but chose the ones that had been read to most of the churches over time, were accepted as Scriptural truth by most of the churches of the time, and presented doctrine in truthful ways. Paul was one of a select group of disciples to have written letters to their congregations and many of his letters were well preserved with multiple copies of the same letters to check for accuracy. Thus, the epistles are filled mostly with Paul's writing.
The other disciples/apostles, bishops, elders, preached and wrote the same things Paul preached and wrote.