Something to watch for is Jude 1:4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
This was going on in Jude's day and have certainly excelled in our day. " For there are certain men crept in unawares".
How do they creep in? craftiness? PERHAPS MULTIPLE NAME CHANGES. What is their purpose? Hender the spiritual growth of the believer by their false doctrine?
They seem to agree with you on topics such as the trinity and other topics "even though they give an unorthodox description of it once examined closely".
They come in all shapes form and fashions.
Let's deal with those who Spiritualizes ALL the scripture and in doing so these particular views devalue the blood shed on the cross and the love God displayed in offering his beloved son. ( John 3:16.)
Also, John 15:13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
This means nothing if there are no consequences to "NOT' receiving Christ, if there is no hell and everyone goes to heaven no matter what you have done in this lifetime! "This is according to their doctrine"
HOW IS THE LOVE OF GOD DISPLAYED ON THE CROSS IF IT WAS UNNECESSARY? Judas, Hitler, Putin, Murderers, Thieves, etc., etc. gets in Heaven anyway!
This particular person also holds the view that we all become as Gods with their incorrect spiritualizing of the text.
WHY IS THIS MESSAGE SO IMPORTANT TO THEM IF THERE IS NO HELL AND THE CROSS DOSENT MATTER?
WHY EVEN BOTHER?
WHERE IS THE VALUE IN FAITH, LOVE, ECT. WORKS, BELIEVING, OBEYING, IN THIS DOCTRINE?
WHATS THE POINT IN SHARING SCRIPTURE?
It's also interesting to see some support a view without understanding it or holding the same viewpoints. The only thing they have in common is multiple name changes.
Well said, S. Spencer. These "crafty" semantics, vague answers, and name changes are detectable to many here. Yet, the false beliefs that are espoused and expounded upon are so damaging. It is good that we call out a warning as well as exposing what is not in keeping with the Truth. Thank you.
We expect Christians to have differences in viewpoints, were only human forever growing in the grace of God, at least we have a common ground and can learn from one another, but when someone denies what is plainly written to form a doctrine by spiritualizing ALL the text to fit their viewpoint, there is seriously something wrong! Especially when the climax of their doctrine deities man to become Gods!
When you see someone hold to such views with no repentance or conviction you begin not to look at the individual but the source behind it.
We find this type of pride in Isaiah 14:12-14. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
Satan also attacks the word of God as seen here in Genesis 3:4-5. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, "AND YE SHALL BE AS gods", knowing good and evil.
WHAT IS THE POINT IN KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL IF EVIL DOES YOU NO HARM?
LET'S NOT FORGET THIS VIEW THAT IS BEING OFFERED IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN BECOME GODS. THIS VIEW HES PRESENTING IS SAYING ALL MAN KIND IS GOING TO BECOME GODS. THE RIGHTEOUS WHO FOLLOW CHRIST AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS.
Hopefully were not worried about many following that view but what is alarming is one misrepresenting the word of God as something you can't understand literally and the Holyspirit has no role in a believer's life.
All the things in Matthew 24 have been taking place since Christ, in the flesh, departed this earth and 45 days latter came the second time as the Holy Ghost.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that has been, it is that which shall be, and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
The last days have been since Christ, still going 2000 years latter: and the LAST DAYS will continue till all things have been put under his feet.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these LAST DAYS spoken to us by his Son ...
Genesis 49:1 .....that I may tell you what shall befall you in the LAST DAYS.
Micah 4:1 But in the LAST DAYS it shall come to pass, (this was fulfilled at Christ's resurrection) that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and people shall flow into it.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him who put all things under him, that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end (to Jacob's troubles), when he shall have DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power.
It seems to me , as I have spoken to many brothers and sisters , throughout my life , who were very much older than me , that every Christian has believed that they were living in the last days . Thirty years ago and elderly brother told me all the things that were going on in the world , when he was a young man , that made Christians at that time think that they were living in the last days . Wars and rumours of wars ? When has that ever not been the case ? I think that the day of Christ's return is as close to all of us as the day of our death . I believe that we die and then sleep in the grave until Christ wakes us up to be with him . So , after we die the next thing that we will be aware of is our Saviour , calling us to himself . Of course , there will be many people alive , Christians and non , when Christ returns , it would be nice to be one of them but it doesn't matter too much to me either way . I just want to be with him in God's Kingdom forever .
You won't mind if I join in as well, will you? You said that all that that the Bible writes about the end times have always occured in the world. This seems to be right and it is what I was always considering too. But nowadays some things become a bit clearer. Wars have always occured in the world, But World Wars like the ones of the previous centuary have never occured, not in that extremity. Rumours of war? I live in Greece. I was always thinking that wars, at least in (the long-suffering) Europe was a past thing that we'll never see in the future, war was a forgotten word during the last 2-3 generations. Peace and a continuous prosperity was the normality of our lives. But since then we have seen wars in ex-Yugoslavia in the 90's and now in Ukraine. (also in our close neighbourhood like in Libya, Syria, Irak, Iran, Afganistan etc etc). People like us that used to live a normal life, going to their jobs daily, raising up their kids, building their houses are now lined up and get executed with no mercy like animals, like it was done by the Nazzis 70 years ago. And we all have bad neighbours as well. Those tremendous European social security systems that were built after WW2 are now more or less falling apart almost everywhere and people are driven again to poverty. Thousands and thousands of people from Africa and the East are desperate to come to Europe to manage to live a normal life far away from wars, hunger, dictatorships political and religious. The stability that occured some decades ago when the world was divided between America and the Soviet Union has gone away and many players have come to the game since, like China and others who aren't at all that nice to people. And who knows what comes next. And in the modern world we are living in, something that happens here goes very fast to the other side of the ocean, like the pandemic.
The Bible mentions physical distructions like earthquakes etc. I used to think like you, they were always occuring in the world. But in the last decade we live in a climate crisis and extreme phenomena are occuring more and more often. Even in my country where those things were foreign, we now see them happening more and more often and get more severe, things that only in TV we used to see them happening in other parts of the world. And things get worse and worse every year.
The Bible says about the mark of the beast. That if someone doesn't have it on them they can not buy or sell. Could that happen in the past? No, it couldn't. If you had money or gold in your hands nobody could hinder you from buying or selling anything. But in a cashless economy this can not be done, and this is where humanity is heading to. Money is going to be just a number on a bank account paper or on your mobile's screen and if you do not get the mark then you will not have access to your e-money.
The Bible says about the last Kingdom on earth that will conquer all the world. Question. Could that happen in the past when all those new technology distruction weapons had not existed yet? All past empires were local, in a corner of the world. With swords and rifles one can not conquer the whole world. But with satelites and missiles and what else has and will be invented one can do it.
In the past nobody could check where somebody else is. Now they can know where you are, what you read, what your interests/hobbies are, what your beliefs are, what you look like, what you eat, who your friends are, everything about you. And I am wondering about all those people that say that they will escape the system of antichrist, going to mountains and desserts. Really? Everything will be under antichrist's control at that time.
The day of Christ, the rapture of the saints is close. In Matthew 24:34 it says that all those things will occur before that generation passes away, our generation I believe.
I absolutely agree with you 100 per cent , everything you said in your two posts to me I totally agree with . I also believe that we are in the very last days of humans thinking that they are in charge ! Christ is coming and the sooner the better . The point that I was trying to make is that , we in these days , know more about the world and what's going on in it , than any other generation before us , however that didn't stop our brothers and sisters in other generations from thinking that they were in the last days . Wishful thinking maybe ? A desperate desire for the return of Christ ? We have to remember just how much and how fast the world has changed from the end of the 1800's ( the industrial revolution ) to now . Enormous changes in just a few generations . It's a little bit scarry but also so exciting . I hope to still be alive when Christ returns but it doesn't really matter . I do believe that Christians are going to see a lot of trouble , there are Christians in the Ukraine remember . I think that when certain parties turn their eyes towards the land of Israel things are really going to hot up , literally . Zechariah talks about eyes melting and flesh dropping of people . To me that means only one thing . Nuclear explosion . And when Christ returns , will he find faith on earth ? It's going to be up to those of us who are still alive to make sure that he does . We must be strong and have faith , no matter what our eyes see or our ears hear , we must walk by faith .
You will be alive when Christ comes back, Christ has already come, the SECOND TIME, to everyone that is BORN AGAIN of TRUTH and LIFE, those Christ dwell in, will never die, you just switch bodies so you can reign with Christ.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (first coming in the flesh); and unto them that look for him he shall appear the SECOND TIME (Christ in you, truth and life, in you) without sin UNTO SALVATION.
I am going to give you a different perspective of Zechariah, you seem to have already come to truth that we have to be destroyed, flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of God.
Zechariah 14:2 This shall be the plaque of them which have fought fight against Jerusalem ......everyone was born into deception, Jerusalem, is TRUTH, we all fight against Jerusalem ...... their (our) flesh (deception) shall consume away while they stand on their feet ..... deception is of this world, truth is of the next world, deception (flesh) cannot live with truth, it has to be destroyed ......
This same thing is described in Revelation 19, the marriage supper of the Lamb, we have to have our flesh eaten from us.
God Bless YOU, as Christ leads you into all truth.
You are correct, as long as we abide in this earthy flesh, we are just a woman in travail, waiting to give birth to the exactness of Christ.
Christ said that the word of God is the SEED, and Christ is the written and living word, Christ is the SEED.
A SEED always produces a SEED exactly like itself, wheat seed always produces wheat seed, grass seed alsays produces grass seed, etc.
The SEED (Christ in us, truth and life) will produce the same SEED.
When this body of flesh dies, the only thing left is TRUTH and LIFE (Christ), and truth and life return to the Father that gave it, we just switch bodies.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who (Christ) only hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light ....
1 Corinthians 15:54 .... and this mortal shall PUT ON IMMORALITY .....
1 Corinthians 15:38 ...and to every SEED his (Christ, immortality) own body ....
I am one of those S Spencer was referring to, I don't believe anyone goes to Hell, because the word says Christ was sent to be saviour of the world, and I believe he will save the world.
Psalms 82:8 Arise O God, judge the earth, for that shalt inherit all nations.
Revelation 7:9 ...a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and all kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes .....
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord, and allthe kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psalms 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
I believe we will be gods, because the word of God says we will be gods.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, children of the most high.
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God, is God of gods, and Lord of lords .....
Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods .....
Daniel 2:47 ....Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods ......
I'm sure you are 100% confident of your beliefs. I'm sure you know that most Christians believe in hell because hell is mentioned in the Bible. I'm sure you've already heard the Bible verses and interpretations of those, so I will keep my comment short. Because you are commenting on a public forum its assumed that you are willing to receive a reply from the public.
I'm curious about the belief of not believing in hell or how someone can read the same Bible and reach that conclusion. If this were true that no one goes there then why would hell exist in the first place, why did Jesus warn us about it like Mark 9:43-48, and what then would the purpose be for becoming a Christian or spreading the gospel?
If everyone is saved regardless of our beliefs or actions, then despite Hebrews 10:26-31 do you think God would be ok with everyone to go out tonight to induldge in the evils of this world and intentionally commit every kind of sin against God imagineable?
I don't know how much you study Moses and the Prophets?
Mankind is able to come to the knowledge of the kingdom of God though the knowledge of Moses and the Prophets;
When Christ open their minds to the scriptures, it was Moses and the Prophets, that was opened to them.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.
Acts 28:23 .... to whom he expounded and testified the Kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the Prophets ....
Luke 16:31 ....If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret to his servants the prophets.
Psalms 78:2 I (the word of God, Christ) will open my mouth in a parable, I will utter dark sayings of old;
Matthew 13:34 All the things spake Jesus to the multitude in parables (it was written in the prophets), and without a parable he spake not to them.
Mark 9:43-48 .... Jesus spake these words, so they are a parable, the fire was the city dump, what say the prophets:
Isaiah 33:14 ....who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burning?
Isaiah 33:16 He that walketh righteously ....
Christ dwells in us, Christ has given us his righteousness, Christ is a devouring fire, abiding in us, eternally.
While you didn't directly address the questions, your chosen response indicates you might believe the New Testament isn't literal and are just parables to you, is that correct? You quoted the old testament suggesting that you might think that's literal, however. Do you mind sharing how you came to this belief?
For the benefit of anyone else reading this there are plenty of verses in the Bible about the literal hell:
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
etc
Do you believe Jesus literally is Lord and literally died on the cross for you?
Did you read the scriptures I quoted to you, they answer all the scriptures you quoted back to me.
Jesus Christ is a literal man, Jesus literally died on the cross, Jesus literally arose from the grave, Jesus literally is now a man with a glorified body:
BUT his words are a parable, because he said they were a parable.
To clarify, you wrote "BUT his words are a parable, because he said they were a parable."
Do you believe all of Jesus's words are parables? If so, then when Jesus said He was speaking in parables that also would be a parable, right? It would seem strange to believe 99.9% of what Jesus says is a figurative parable, except only one verse or phrase where He says He's speaking in parables, correct? For example Mark 4:11 is literal?
To me its evident when Jesus or anyone else in the Bible is speaking literally, telling a story, using a figure of speech, metaphor, simile, just as its usually evident when conversing with anyone else in person.
"Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" John 9:35 KJV
Jesus said He's the Son of God, do you believe he was being literal or telling a parable when He said that?
"Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?" Luke 22:48 KJV
Another literal quote from Jesus which do you believe is literal that Judas did in fact betray Him with a kiss, or do you believe this is also a parable?
Do you believe Jesus is Lord as it says in Colossians 2:6-9 and the Mighty God as it says in Isaiah 9:6?
I don't believe Jesus is the THE GOD (Spirit), Jesus, a man, and is A God, begotten of the GOD, and given authority over creation, until he has put all thing under his feet, then he will be subject to THE GOD, his Father, who put all things under him, A GOD.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto is a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders, and HIS NAME shall be called shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Christ was begotten, to be A GOD over creation, and to bear children through his SEED, the word of God, and when he has completed his commission as A GOD over creation, he will turn the Kingdom over to HIS GOD, who put all things under him, A GOD.
Isaiah 59:21 ..... this is my covenant with them (Christ SEED), saith the Lord, My Spirit (THE GOD), that is upon thee (Christ, A GOD), and my words (THE GOD) that I have put in your mouth (Christ, A GOD), shall not depart out of thy mouth, or out of they SEED'S SEED from henceforth and forevermore.
And at some point we, the image of Christ, will be appointed a portion of the Kingdom, as A GOD, over the ones we have been given authority over. All this is in the Prophets.
Exodus 7:1 ....see I have made thee A GOD to Pharaoh .....
Jeremiah 51:20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy the kingdoms.
2 Chronicles 19:5 And he set judges through the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
Isaiah 1:26 And I will return thy judges, as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: AFTERWARDS thou shall be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
I am not going to change your mine and your not going to change my mind, so somewhere in the future, one of us will be right and one will be wrong, it's all the works of God.
Hi Earl, that's an unusual interpretation I've never heard before. I wonder if a particular church or pastor taught you that or how came to interpret the Bible in that way. Since you didn't acknowledge Jesus is Lord or that you follow Him, do you believe you are a Christian?
I've been wrong in my life before and I'm sure you have too. Yes, at least one of us is wrong and the one who is wrong will think he's right and be very confident about it. The goal should be to find the truth, do you agree?
The Bible says satan exists and is the father of lies John 8:44. He tries to derail us, twist our thinking, create doubt, entice us with false teachings. This doesn't just happen to others, it can happen to us. So how can we be assured we haven't fallen into his trap and are believing his lies?
I believe God's word is true, and He is the source of truth. James 1:5 says we can ask for wisdom and He will honor that. An important component of finding the truth would then be praying to God and asking for His help and confirmation. I'm praying about this right now and I encourage you to do the same.
Earl, have you prayed and asked God for wisdom on this topic and to confirm in your heart what the truth is?
Neither a church nor a pastor teaches me, I don't read literature written by man, I don't watch television, I get up every morning and anywhere between 12 and 18 hours EVERY day I study the word of God, I have been doing this now for 10 years.
I know who teaches me, he is my LIFE, in him is ALL TRUTH, I do constantly pray to the Father for wisdom and understanding, but he want give it to you if you don't believe HIS WORDS.
It's a KINGDOM, here on earth, ONE KING and all creation his subject, and Christ will bring all to truth at HIS GOOD PLEASURE, not necessarily in the age we are now in, he is going to raise the unbelievers back into their flesh and JUDGE THEM.
Isaiah 26:9 ....when thy judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the earth WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS ....
Salvation is not man's doing IT'S GOD'S DOING.
I know you don't believe this, and this is fine, GOD'S WILL BE DONE.
Hello . I hope it's ok for me to join in . There are very many references in the Bible , to the effect that the wicked are destroyed / perished etc . This seems to fit with the wages of sin being death and the gift of God being everlasting life through Christ our willing sacrifice for our sins . God pronounced the sentence of death / destruction , on humans because we sin , but because He does love us , He has given us means to continue living , with Him , forever in His Kingdom , through our Passover Lamb Jesus Christ the Righteous . These are my beliefs . I can give you lots of references to the destruction of sinners if you are interested but I'm guessing that you have read the Bible so I won't be telling you anything that you don't already know . I hope you don't mind me butting in and you don't have to answer me .
However when Christ comes the second time he will come in judgement, He didn't come as the Holyghost as some suggest.
Matthew 24:15. hasn't happened yet.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Neither has Matthew 24:27-31.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "The elect here I believe is Israel" Isaiah 45:4. Isaiah 11:12. Jeremiah 23:3. Psalms 107:2-3.
The Holyspirit was always in the world, but believers weren't baptized by the spirit until AFTER Christ was risen from the dead.
But the second coming of Christ reads like this.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Matthew 24:36-44.
There is some amongst us who believes there is no Hell and we all will be saved and become Gods!!
I think the falling away is falling away from the Truth as it is expressed in the Bible . Paul and Peter talk about ' cunningly devised fables ' which imply that they are created deliberately to deceive , or Jewish fables . These Jewish fables I think are very important because that must mean that they existed in Christ's lifetime and Christ himself would have had to have been aware of them and maybe even trying to refute them and we could be reading about some of that in the Gospel accounts . Reference are : 1st Tim 1 : 4 , 1st Tim 4 : 7 , 2nd Tim 4 : 4 , Titus 1 : 14 and 2nd Peter 1 : 16 .
I believe you are right, we fall away from deception, so we can be BORN AGAIN by the word of God, TRUTH.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no may deceive you by any means, for THAT DAY (being born again, the day of the Lord, Christ in you) shall not come, except there come a falling away (from deception) first, and that man of sin (OURSELVES) be revealed, the son of prediction;
Earl , you have a unique way of putting things . Your posts always get my brain working , thank you for that . I always have to read them two or three times , you make me work !
In verse 1 says "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,".So that day is the day that Jesus comes.
But there are 2 theories about that day depending on what one believe, the pre or the post tribulation rapture.
1. If the pre-trib theory is right (which is my belief too) then that day is the rapture of the saints when Jesus comes not on earth but in the air and then takes His church away. Then the 7 year rule of antichrist on earth starts.
2. If the post-trib theory is right then that day is the second coming of Jesus on earth after the battle at Armagedon at the end of the tribulation and the rule of antichrist on earth
3. There is also a third theory that says that that day is the rapture which will take place in the midst of the 7 year period of antichrist's ruling and then the tribulation starts for the remaining 3 1/2 years.
The "falling away" or as it is written in the greek text the "apostasy" is considered by most the apostasy of the christian world from the faith which we see in our days taking place during the last decades. I don't know where you live in, but Europe which in the past was a christendom, now have turned completely atheist. Christians are considered as old fashioned fanatics who hinder the modern world's progress (to where???). Others think that the apostasy refers to a united world religion that tries to compromise all religions together, a world system which will actually be far from christian beliefs.
The "man of sin" is usually called the "antichrist". The word antichrist is not written in the Revelation but John mentions it in his first epistle. Anyway it is just a name, it means the opposite of Christ or somone who is against Christ. Many of those have existed through the centuaries but the main one will come at the end and will rule on the whole world. After the apostasy of the christian world he will make his appearance on earth.
Do you believe Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians to warn them about a singular antichrist? or were they falling away from the truth first preached to them about being born again by the word of God, the coming of the Lord to them by the indwelling of the WORD himself?
Paul in his first epistle to Thessalonians ( 1 Thess 4:13-8) trying to comfort believers who have lost their loved ones, is refering to the end times when Jesus is coming back and the dead in Christ will be resurrected and be unitied with them again. In verse 4:15 ("For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep") Paul leaves the impression that he himself will be alive at that time. So Thessalonians seemed to have believed that that time is coming very soon, during their lifetime. So Paul writes a second letter and puts things in the right order. He says to them that that time will not be soon because many other events have to precede, like the falling away, the appearance of the antichrist, Him who hinders him to appear etc. So Paul in his letter has no intention to speak particularly about the antichrist but includes him in the series of events of the end times.
Now what is that falling away or apostasy? There are many theories like the ones I wrote and many other. I believe it is the apostasy of the christian world from the faith, but it may be the apostasy of christian churches from the truth of the Gospel or both of them.
Now if I have understood well you believe in the "Jesus only" theory, that says God is one person who sometimes appear as Father, other times as Son or Holly Spirit? Or I got you wrong? Personally I believe in the triune nature of God, one God but three distinctive Persons.
God is spirit, God is holy, God can't be seen; the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Father and God are all the same thing, just identified by different titles.
The Son Christ Jesus is a man, the BODY of his Father.
Ephesians 4:4 .... ONE SPIRIT ..... ONE BODY .......
Ephesians 4:6 .... ONE GOD .... and Father of all ......
You are Christ's brother and you are God's son; You and Christ have the same Father, you and Christ have the same God.
Now the most interesting and simultaneously misterious is what Paul writes in verses 6 and 7. It says about someone or something that withholds or hinders the antichrist to make his appearance. Although those words like "withholding" or "not letting in"or "hindering" can be found in many translations and interpretations of the Bible, the actual word the greek text uses is "Katechon" which actually means one "who aquires or has in his/her possesion something". Who is this and what is it that he has in his possesion? Many theories have existed through the centuaries about that. Many of the first 3-4 centuaries AD christians thought it was the Roman rule and when it was going to collapse the antichrist would grab the chance to establish his rule. But that turned out to be wrong. So many theories emmerged. The protestants said it was the Pope, the catholics said it was Luther, the ortodoxes said it was all the others, many christians said it was Mohamed, and so on, evebody attributed that lovely title to their dearest enemy. But again everything turned to be historically wrong. But there was a theory from the very early time that it is now accepted by many as the most possible. It is what the pretrib christians believe. "Him" is the "Holly Spirit" and what He posseses is the "church". When Jesus comes in the air, the Spirit will resurrect the dead saints and transform the living ones and handle them to Jesus in the air, and they will remain in Heaven until He comes back on earth with all His saints and angels to end all things.
Sory but I made a terrible typing mistake. When I wrote this sentence "The protestants said it was the Pope, the catholics said it was Luther, the ortodoxes said it was all the others, many christians said it was Mohamed, and so on, everybody attributed that lovely(sarcastic!) title to their dearest enemy" I was refering to the title of antichrist, not the one who hinders him to appear
The order of events in the end times as I know them are, briefly. Right or wrong, this is how I have it.
a The rapture of the church just before anticrist makes his appearance in the world. The Bema Seat. The presence of church on earth is what hinders him to appear. Time and date unknown. People are dealing with their everyday lifes as usually, unsuspected for what is coming to the world.
b. The 7 year period that antichrist rules on earth. Tribulation, cataclysmic events, mark of the beast, persecutions and slaughterings, salvation of Israel, etc etc. People are scared to death because of all those events and the ones yet to come. Life on earth becomes litterally a hell.
c. End of those 7 years. Jesus' 2nd coming with the church and His angels and those who were slaughtered during the great tribulation. Fight at Armaggedon. Distruction of antichrist's army.
d. Millenium, Christ and His church rule on earth on the people survived all those events. Satan is sent to the Bottomless Pit (greek Abyss)
e. End of millenium. Satan is freed. People revolte once more against God and get distructed.
f. Resurrection of all people of all times. The Final Judgement/White Throne. The saints also will judge, even fallen angels.
g. New heavens and earth are created. God lives together with His people.
Hi Mr. Bowman, you're asking about 2Thessalonians 2:3, it starts with 2Thessalonians 2:1-2, the coming of Lord,._. Please notice this is the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians, following up on the discussion in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, also following the words of Jesus.
It seems the "great falling away" may be as Jesus explained with the seed, parable. When they face trouble, not rooted in good soil; Please look at Matthew 13:6,20,21, notice Jesus says we will go through "the great tribulation" Matthew 24:21,22,29, Matthew 24:30, in context please read both full chapters, also please look at : Revelation 6:9-11, if Jesus says endure to the end, Matthew 24:13, 2Peter 3:3-14, 1Peter 5:2-11, Hebrews 12:23-29, Hebrews 10:35-39, Colossians 1:23,
This chapter is discussed often, I have a question:
Thessalonians 2:3 .....except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be REVEALED, the son of perdition.
QUESTION:
What do we fall away from, so he can be revealed?
God Bless You!
Something to watch for is Jude 1:4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
This was going on in Jude's day and have certainly excelled in our day. " For there are certain men crept in unawares".
How do they creep in? craftiness? PERHAPS MULTIPLE NAME CHANGES. What is their purpose? Hender the spiritual growth of the believer by their false doctrine?
They seem to agree with you on topics such as the trinity and other topics "even though they give an unorthodox description of it once examined closely".
They come in all shapes form and fashions.
Let's deal with those who Spiritualizes ALL the scripture and in doing so these particular views devalue the blood shed on the cross and the love God displayed in offering his beloved son. ( John 3:16.)
Also, John 15:13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
This means nothing if there are no consequences to "NOT' receiving Christ, if there is no hell and everyone goes to heaven no matter what you have done in this lifetime! "This is according to their doctrine"
HOW IS THE LOVE OF GOD DISPLAYED ON THE CROSS IF IT WAS UNNECESSARY? Judas, Hitler, Putin, Murderers, Thieves, etc., etc. gets in Heaven anyway!
This particular person also holds the view that we all become as Gods with their incorrect spiritualizing of the text.
WHY IS THIS MESSAGE SO IMPORTANT TO THEM IF THERE IS NO HELL AND THE CROSS DOSENT MATTER?
WHY EVEN BOTHER?
WHERE IS THE VALUE IN FAITH, LOVE, ECT. WORKS, BELIEVING, OBEYING, IN THIS DOCTRINE?
WHATS THE POINT IN SHARING SCRIPTURE?
It's also interesting to see some support a view without understanding it or holding the same viewpoints. The only thing they have in common is multiple name changes.
GB
We expect Christians to have differences in viewpoints, were only human forever growing in the grace of God, at least we have a common ground and can learn from one another, but when someone denies what is plainly written to form a doctrine by spiritualizing ALL the text to fit their viewpoint, there is seriously something wrong! Especially when the climax of their doctrine deities man to become Gods!
When you see someone hold to such views with no repentance or conviction you begin not to look at the individual but the source behind it.
We find this type of pride in Isaiah 14:12-14. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
Satan also attacks the word of God as seen here in Genesis 3:4-5. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, "AND YE SHALL BE AS gods", knowing good and evil.
WHAT IS THE POINT IN KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL IF EVIL DOES YOU NO HARM?
LET'S NOT FORGET THIS VIEW THAT IS BEING OFFERED IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN BECOME GODS. THIS VIEW HES PRESENTING IS SAYING ALL MAN KIND IS GOING TO BECOME GODS. THE RIGHTEOUS WHO FOLLOW CHRIST AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS.
Hopefully were not worried about many following that view but what is alarming is one misrepresenting the word of God as something you can't understand literally and the Holyspirit has no role in a believer's life.
GBU.
Why do you think Christ is going to fail the commission his Father gave him?
God Bless YOU!
What do we fall away from, so he can be revealed?
Please read Matthew 24( the last days)
The days of the falling away
is now being manifest to our own eyes, men that used to walk with God are tuning to the world and its lust
Preachers are perching not in faith but out greed and fame, Churches have became a social gathering and dens of thief rather than
a house of worship and the teaching that is coming out of churches is from the doctrines of demons
and Instead of preaching repentance the posters and preachers are twisting the word to get more people and prosperity gospel
All the things in Matthew 24 have been taking place since Christ, in the flesh, departed this earth and 45 days latter came the second time as the Holy Ghost.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that has been, it is that which shall be, and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
The last days have been since Christ, still going 2000 years latter: and the LAST DAYS will continue till all things have been put under his feet.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these LAST DAYS spoken to us by his Son ...
Genesis 49:1 .....that I may tell you what shall befall you in the LAST DAYS.
Micah 4:1 But in the LAST DAYS it shall come to pass, (this was fulfilled at Christ's resurrection) that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and people shall flow into it.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him who put all things under him, that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end (to Jacob's troubles), when he shall have DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power.
God Bless You!
Hello Jacqui
You won't mind if I join in as well, will you? You said that all that that the Bible writes about the end times have always occured in the world. This seems to be right and it is what I was always considering too. But nowadays some things become a bit clearer. Wars have always occured in the world, But World Wars like the ones of the previous centuary have never occured, not in that extremity. Rumours of war? I live in Greece. I was always thinking that wars, at least in (the long-suffering) Europe was a past thing that we'll never see in the future, war was a forgotten word during the last 2-3 generations. Peace and a continuous prosperity was the normality of our lives. But since then we have seen wars in ex-Yugoslavia in the 90's and now in Ukraine. (also in our close neighbourhood like in Libya, Syria, Irak, Iran, Afganistan etc etc). People like us that used to live a normal life, going to their jobs daily, raising up their kids, building their houses are now lined up and get executed with no mercy like animals, like it was done by the Nazzis 70 years ago. And we all have bad neighbours as well. Those tremendous European social security systems that were built after WW2 are now more or less falling apart almost everywhere and people are driven again to poverty. Thousands and thousands of people from Africa and the East are desperate to come to Europe to manage to live a normal life far away from wars, hunger, dictatorships political and religious. The stability that occured some decades ago when the world was divided between America and the Soviet Union has gone away and many players have come to the game since, like China and others who aren't at all that nice to people. And who knows what comes next. And in the modern world we are living in, something that happens here goes very fast to the other side of the ocean, like the pandemic.
The Bible mentions physical distructions like earthquakes etc. I used to think like you, they were always occuring in the world. But in the last decade we live in a climate crisis and extreme phenomena are occuring more and more often. Even in my country where those things were foreign, we now see them happening more and more often and get more severe, things that only in TV we used to see them happening in other parts of the world. And things get worse and worse every year.
The Bible says about the mark of the beast. That if someone doesn't have it on them they can not buy or sell. Could that happen in the past? No, it couldn't. If you had money or gold in your hands nobody could hinder you from buying or selling anything. But in a cashless economy this can not be done, and this is where humanity is heading to. Money is going to be just a number on a bank account paper or on your mobile's screen and if you do not get the mark then you will not have access to your e-money.
The Bible says about the last Kingdom on earth that will conquer all the world. Question. Could that happen in the past when all those new technology distruction weapons had not existed yet? All past empires were local, in a corner of the world. With swords and rifles one can not conquer the whole world. But with satelites and missiles and what else has and will be invented one can do it.
In the past nobody could check where somebody else is. Now they can know where you are, what you read, what your interests/hobbies are, what your beliefs are, what you look like, what you eat, who your friends are, everything about you. And I am wondering about all those people that say that they will escape the system of antichrist, going to mountains and desserts. Really? Everything will be under antichrist's control at that time.
The day of Christ, the rapture of the saints is close. In Matthew 24:34 it says that all those things will occur before that generation passes away, our generation I believe.
You will be alive when Christ comes back, Christ has already come, the SECOND TIME, to everyone that is BORN AGAIN of TRUTH and LIFE, those Christ dwell in, will never die, you just switch bodies so you can reign with Christ.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (first coming in the flesh); and unto them that look for him he shall appear the SECOND TIME (Christ in you, truth and life, in you) without sin UNTO SALVATION.
I am going to give you a different perspective of Zechariah, you seem to have already come to truth that we have to be destroyed, flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of God.
Zechariah 14:2 This shall be the plaque of them which have fought fight against Jerusalem ......everyone was born into deception, Jerusalem, is TRUTH, we all fight against Jerusalem ...... their (our) flesh (deception) shall consume away while they stand on their feet ..... deception is of this world, truth is of the next world, deception (flesh) cannot live with truth, it has to be destroyed ......
This same thing is described in Revelation 19, the marriage supper of the Lamb, we have to have our flesh eaten from us.
God Bless YOU, as Christ leads you into all truth.
You are correct, as long as we abide in this earthy flesh, we are just a woman in travail, waiting to give birth to the exactness of Christ.
Christ said that the word of God is the SEED, and Christ is the written and living word, Christ is the SEED.
A SEED always produces a SEED exactly like itself, wheat seed always produces wheat seed, grass seed alsays produces grass seed, etc.
The SEED (Christ in us, truth and life) will produce the same SEED.
When this body of flesh dies, the only thing left is TRUTH and LIFE (Christ), and truth and life return to the Father that gave it, we just switch bodies.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who (Christ) only hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light ....
1 Corinthians 15:54 .... and this mortal shall PUT ON IMMORALITY .....
1 Corinthians 15:38 ...and to every SEED his (Christ, immortality) own body ....
God Bless YOU!
I agree and now it's accelerating more then previous time. and the king is coming the king is coming
Amen.
I am one of those S Spencer was referring to, I don't believe anyone goes to Hell, because the word says Christ was sent to be saviour of the world, and I believe he will save the world.
Psalms 82:8 Arise O God, judge the earth, for that shalt inherit all nations.
Revelation 7:9 ...a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and all kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes .....
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord, and allthe kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psalms 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
I believe we will be gods, because the word of God says we will be gods.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, children of the most high.
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God, is God of gods, and Lord of lords .....
Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods .....
Daniel 2:47 ....Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods ......
God Bless You!
I'm sure you are 100% confident of your beliefs. I'm sure you know that most Christians believe in hell because hell is mentioned in the Bible. I'm sure you've already heard the Bible verses and interpretations of those, so I will keep my comment short. Because you are commenting on a public forum its assumed that you are willing to receive a reply from the public.
I'm curious about the belief of not believing in hell or how someone can read the same Bible and reach that conclusion. If this were true that no one goes there then why would hell exist in the first place, why did Jesus warn us about it like Mark 9:43-48, and what then would the purpose be for becoming a Christian or spreading the gospel?
If everyone is saved regardless of our beliefs or actions, then despite Hebrews 10:26-31 do you think God would be ok with everyone to go out tonight to induldge in the evils of this world and intentionally commit every kind of sin against God imagineable?
Thank you for sharing your beliefs...
I don't know how much you study Moses and the Prophets?
Mankind is able to come to the knowledge of the kingdom of God though the knowledge of Moses and the Prophets;
When Christ open their minds to the scriptures, it was Moses and the Prophets, that was opened to them.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.
Acts 28:23 .... to whom he expounded and testified the Kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the Prophets ....
Luke 16:31 ....If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret to his servants the prophets.
Psalms 78:2 I (the word of God, Christ) will open my mouth in a parable, I will utter dark sayings of old;
Matthew 13:34 All the things spake Jesus to the multitude in parables (it was written in the prophets), and without a parable he spake not to them.
Mark 9:43-48 .... Jesus spake these words, so they are a parable, the fire was the city dump, what say the prophets:
Isaiah 33:14 ....who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burning?
Isaiah 33:16 He that walketh righteously ....
Christ dwells in us, Christ has given us his righteousness, Christ is a devouring fire, abiding in us, eternally.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a devouring fire.
God Bless You!
While you didn't directly address the questions, your chosen response indicates you might believe the New Testament isn't literal and are just parables to you, is that correct? You quoted the old testament suggesting that you might think that's literal, however. Do you mind sharing how you came to this belief?
For the benefit of anyone else reading this there are plenty of verses in the Bible about the literal hell:
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
etc
Do you believe Jesus literally is Lord and literally died on the cross for you?
Did you read the scriptures I quoted to you, they answer all the scriptures you quoted back to me.
Jesus Christ is a literal man, Jesus literally died on the cross, Jesus literally arose from the grave, Jesus literally is now a man with a glorified body:
BUT his words are a parable, because he said they were a parable.
God Bless YOU!
To clarify, you wrote "BUT his words are a parable, because he said they were a parable."
Do you believe all of Jesus's words are parables? If so, then when Jesus said He was speaking in parables that also would be a parable, right? It would seem strange to believe 99.9% of what Jesus says is a figurative parable, except only one verse or phrase where He says He's speaking in parables, correct? For example Mark 4:11 is literal?
To me its evident when Jesus or anyone else in the Bible is speaking literally, telling a story, using a figure of speech, metaphor, simile, just as its usually evident when conversing with anyone else in person.
"Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" John 9:35 KJV
Jesus said He's the Son of God, do you believe he was being literal or telling a parable when He said that?
"Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?" Luke 22:48 KJV
Another literal quote from Jesus which do you believe is literal that Judas did in fact betray Him with a kiss, or do you believe this is also a parable?
Do you believe Jesus is Lord as it says in Colossians 2:6-9 and the Mighty God as it says in Isaiah 9:6?
God bless
I don't believe Jesus is the THE GOD (Spirit), Jesus, a man, and is A God, begotten of the GOD, and given authority over creation, until he has put all thing under his feet, then he will be subject to THE GOD, his Father, who put all things under him, A GOD.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto is a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders, and HIS NAME shall be called shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Christ was begotten, to be A GOD over creation, and to bear children through his SEED, the word of God, and when he has completed his commission as A GOD over creation, he will turn the Kingdom over to HIS GOD, who put all things under him, A GOD.
Isaiah 59:21 ..... this is my covenant with them (Christ SEED), saith the Lord, My Spirit (THE GOD), that is upon thee (Christ, A GOD), and my words (THE GOD) that I have put in your mouth (Christ, A GOD), shall not depart out of thy mouth, or out of they SEED'S SEED from henceforth and forevermore.
And at some point we, the image of Christ, will be appointed a portion of the Kingdom, as A GOD, over the ones we have been given authority over. All this is in the Prophets.
Exodus 7:1 ....see I have made thee A GOD to Pharaoh .....
Jeremiah 51:20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy the kingdoms.
2 Chronicles 19:5 And he set judges through the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
Isaiah 1:26 And I will return thy judges, as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: AFTERWARDS thou shall be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
I am not going to change your mine and your not going to change my mind, so somewhere in the future, one of us will be right and one will be wrong, it's all the works of God.
God Bless You!
I've been wrong in my life before and I'm sure you have too. Yes, at least one of us is wrong and the one who is wrong will think he's right and be very confident about it. The goal should be to find the truth, do you agree?
The Bible says satan exists and is the father of lies John 8:44. He tries to derail us, twist our thinking, create doubt, entice us with false teachings. This doesn't just happen to others, it can happen to us. So how can we be assured we haven't fallen into his trap and are believing his lies?
I believe God's word is true, and He is the source of truth. James 1:5 says we can ask for wisdom and He will honor that. An important component of finding the truth would then be praying to God and asking for His help and confirmation. I'm praying about this right now and I encourage you to do the same.
Earl, have you prayed and asked God for wisdom on this topic and to confirm in your heart what the truth is?
Neither a church nor a pastor teaches me, I don't read literature written by man, I don't watch television, I get up every morning and anywhere between 12 and 18 hours EVERY day I study the word of God, I have been doing this now for 10 years.
I know who teaches me, he is my LIFE, in him is ALL TRUTH, I do constantly pray to the Father for wisdom and understanding, but he want give it to you if you don't believe HIS WORDS.
It's a KINGDOM, here on earth, ONE KING and all creation his subject, and Christ will bring all to truth at HIS GOOD PLEASURE, not necessarily in the age we are now in, he is going to raise the unbelievers back into their flesh and JUDGE THEM.
Isaiah 26:9 ....when thy judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the earth WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS ....
Salvation is not man's doing IT'S GOD'S DOING.
I know you don't believe this, and this is fine, GOD'S WILL BE DONE.
God Bless YOU!
I agree the apostacy has already started.
However when Christ comes the second time he will come in judgement, He didn't come as the Holyghost as some suggest.
Matthew 24:15. hasn't happened yet.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Neither has Matthew 24:27-31.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "The elect here I believe is Israel" Isaiah 45:4. Isaiah 11:12. Jeremiah 23:3. Psalms 107:2-3.
The Holyspirit was always in the world, but believers weren't baptized by the spirit until AFTER Christ was risen from the dead.
But the second coming of Christ reads like this.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Matthew 24:36-44.
There is some amongst us who believes there is no Hell and we all will be saved and become Gods!!
This is the climax of their theology.
GB.
I believe you are right, we fall away from deception, so we can be BORN AGAIN by the word of God, TRUTH.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no may deceive you by any means, for THAT DAY (being born again, the day of the Lord, Christ in you) shall not come, except there come a falling away (from deception) first, and that man of sin (OURSELVES) be revealed, the son of prediction;
God Bless You!
Part 1
In verse 1 says "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,".So that day is the day that Jesus comes.
But there are 2 theories about that day depending on what one believe, the pre or the post tribulation rapture.
1. If the pre-trib theory is right (which is my belief too) then that day is the rapture of the saints when Jesus comes not on earth but in the air and then takes His church away. Then the 7 year rule of antichrist on earth starts.
2. If the post-trib theory is right then that day is the second coming of Jesus on earth after the battle at Armagedon at the end of the tribulation and the rule of antichrist on earth
3. There is also a third theory that says that that day is the rapture which will take place in the midst of the 7 year period of antichrist's ruling and then the tribulation starts for the remaining 3 1/2 years.
The "falling away" or as it is written in the greek text the "apostasy" is considered by most the apostasy of the christian world from the faith which we see in our days taking place during the last decades. I don't know where you live in, but Europe which in the past was a christendom, now have turned completely atheist. Christians are considered as old fashioned fanatics who hinder the modern world's progress (to where???). Others think that the apostasy refers to a united world religion that tries to compromise all religions together, a world system which will actually be far from christian beliefs.
The "man of sin" is usually called the "antichrist". The word antichrist is not written in the Revelation but John mentions it in his first epistle. Anyway it is just a name, it means the opposite of Christ or somone who is against Christ. Many of those have existed through the centuaries but the main one will come at the end and will rule on the whole world. After the apostasy of the christian world he will make his appearance on earth.
Do you believe Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians to warn them about a singular antichrist? or were they falling away from the truth first preached to them about being born again by the word of God, the coming of the Lord to them by the indwelling of the WORD himself?
God Bless You!
Paul in his first epistle to Thessalonians ( 1 Thess 4:13-8) trying to comfort believers who have lost their loved ones, is refering to the end times when Jesus is coming back and the dead in Christ will be resurrected and be unitied with them again. In verse 4:15 ("For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep") Paul leaves the impression that he himself will be alive at that time. So Thessalonians seemed to have believed that that time is coming very soon, during their lifetime. So Paul writes a second letter and puts things in the right order. He says to them that that time will not be soon because many other events have to precede, like the falling away, the appearance of the antichrist, Him who hinders him to appear etc. So Paul in his letter has no intention to speak particularly about the antichrist but includes him in the series of events of the end times.
Now what is that falling away or apostasy? There are many theories like the ones I wrote and many other. I believe it is the apostasy of the christian world from the faith, but it may be the apostasy of christian churches from the truth of the Gospel or both of them.
Now if I have understood well you believe in the "Jesus only" theory, that says God is one person who sometimes appear as Father, other times as Son or Holly Spirit? Or I got you wrong? Personally I believe in the triune nature of God, one God but three distinctive Persons.
GBU
I don't believe in the "Jesus only" theory.
I believe in the Father and the Son theory.
God is spirit, God is holy, God can't be seen; the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Father and God are all the same thing, just identified by different titles.
The Son Christ Jesus is a man, the BODY of his Father.
Ephesians 4:4 .... ONE SPIRIT ..... ONE BODY .......
Ephesians 4:6 .... ONE GOD .... and Father of all ......
You are Christ's brother and you are God's son; You and Christ have the same Father, you and Christ have the same God.
God Bless You!
Now the most interesting and simultaneously misterious is what Paul writes in verses 6 and 7. It says about someone or something that withholds or hinders the antichrist to make his appearance. Although those words like "withholding" or "not letting in"or "hindering" can be found in many translations and interpretations of the Bible, the actual word the greek text uses is "Katechon" which actually means one "who aquires or has in his/her possesion something". Who is this and what is it that he has in his possesion? Many theories have existed through the centuaries about that. Many of the first 3-4 centuaries AD christians thought it was the Roman rule and when it was going to collapse the antichrist would grab the chance to establish his rule. But that turned out to be wrong. So many theories emmerged. The protestants said it was the Pope, the catholics said it was Luther, the ortodoxes said it was all the others, many christians said it was Mohamed, and so on, evebody attributed that lovely title to their dearest enemy. But again everything turned to be historically wrong. But there was a theory from the very early time that it is now accepted by many as the most possible. It is what the pretrib christians believe. "Him" is the "Holly Spirit" and what He posseses is the "church". When Jesus comes in the air, the Spirit will resurrect the dead saints and transform the living ones and handle them to Jesus in the air, and they will remain in Heaven until He comes back on earth with all His saints and angels to end all things.
This is my belief too.
The order of events in the end times as I know them are, briefly. Right or wrong, this is how I have it.
a The rapture of the church just before anticrist makes his appearance in the world. The Bema Seat. The presence of church on earth is what hinders him to appear. Time and date unknown. People are dealing with their everyday lifes as usually, unsuspected for what is coming to the world.
b. The 7 year period that antichrist rules on earth. Tribulation, cataclysmic events, mark of the beast, persecutions and slaughterings, salvation of Israel, etc etc. People are scared to death because of all those events and the ones yet to come. Life on earth becomes litterally a hell.
c. End of those 7 years. Jesus' 2nd coming with the church and His angels and those who were slaughtered during the great tribulation. Fight at Armaggedon. Distruction of antichrist's army.
d. Millenium, Christ and His church rule on earth on the people survived all those events. Satan is sent to the Bottomless Pit (greek Abyss)
e. End of millenium. Satan is freed. People revolte once more against God and get distructed.
f. Resurrection of all people of all times. The Final Judgement/White Throne. The saints also will judge, even fallen angels.
g. New heavens and earth are created. God lives together with His people.
GBU
That is the view I have also.
GB.
It seems the "great falling away" may be as Jesus explained with the seed, parable. When they face trouble, not rooted in good soil; Please look at Matthew 13:6,20,21, notice Jesus says we will go through "the great tribulation" Matthew 24:21,22,29, Matthew 24:30, in context please read both full chapters, also please look at : Revelation 6:9-11, if Jesus says endure to the end, Matthew 24:13, 2Peter 3:3-14, 1Peter 5:2-11, Hebrews 12:23-29, Hebrews 10:35-39, Colossians 1:23,
1Peter 1:2-9, Jude 1:24,
Hopefully this is helpful
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