This chapter shows the abrupt shift in setting based on things that "must be hereafter" according to verse 1. John was taken up in the spirit (verse 2) to observe the throne; who sat on the throne; the 24 elders; and the sevenfold or seven Spirits of God (seven lamps of fire) burning before the throne. This would indicate the church raptured; and likely the 12 Apostles and 12 elders from the O.T. who were the sons of Abraham.
The four beasts before the throne show the continuing narrative in Ezekiel 1:5. These were and are still continually praising the Lord. The elders once again appear in verse 10 casting their crowns down and giving praise to God's attributes.
When we get to chapter 5; we see that the elders discuss being redeemed from every tribe tongue and nation (verse 9 and 10). So it would seem that they are representative of the whole church; or else a larger group was also included in the text and the way it is translated seems to hide it. I have heard that analogy; in any case clearly the reference to "kings and priests" such as represented in 1 Peter 2:9 and other scriptures makes it clear the whole victorious raptured group of saints from the church age are meant here. Other scriptures; however mention the warning of losing reward ( Rev. 3:11); and indicate crowns are rewards for specific things. Those who are raptured will recieve a crown for those eagerly looking forward to that Day ( 2 Tim. 4:8). Certainly; however those who make it in as through the fire ( 1 Cor. 3:15) will suffer loss; and many may not have crowns or be kings and priests during the Millennium. Those who have more fruit have bigger reward ( Luke 19:17-19); and some who hide their "talents" will lose even what they thought they had ( Luke 19:24). A similar parable shows that servant being cast into outer darkness; either the Tribulation or hell.
So we can barely enter heaven; or be a tare if not investing what He gave us and producing fruit. Food for thought!
Daniel 12:1 admittedly is confusing as it would seem that the time of trouble when His people are raised when considering all the other events beforehand make it seem like the midpoint of the Tribulation. My point was that the 24 elders clearly represent all the saints; and it would make sense that it would be the O.T. and N.T. ones from "all nations". So somehow it is the literal elders as well as all those symbolized by all believers; that was my point; perhaps the original text is worded to make that point clearer than the translation. Whether those who have "fallen asleep" are Resurrected at the same time being part of the church age; or the O.T. saints are raised later on is a mystery to me. I suppose in some sense with the 2 prophets Elijah if not Enoch as well have the final Resurrection at the midpoint as Elijah never died (following the Hebrews 9:27 principal). Just thought of that. The other aspect which you haven't asked me about is my whole view that those in white garments after martyrdom represent believers who are lukewarm and left behind. I suppose that is contentious as well; given my reasoning and scripture as a whole it isn't worth dividing over; but I want to remain faithful to the text. As to the rapture being a reward and not a salvation issue; and how we define the wrath that we as a church aren't going to go through is a complex issue. I say this in all honesty for many now that is the only thing this side of heaven that will cause a real move of God; certainly that is the case for the Tribulation saints there will be a countless multitude. As to whether there is some overlap of the Age of Grace with the Tribulation is a tough subject. Surely; as Psalm 40 seems to implicate; many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay which could refer to the Rapture; as well as whatever provokes the Jews to jealousy ( Romans 11:14; also see Deut 32:21 I just found that also! Hope these things won't cause too much strife.
I don't argue that the 24 elders are represantatives of both OT and NT time
a. May Daniel 12:1 refer only to the living Jews at that time and not the ones that died before Christ(?)
B The original text doesn't make things clearer that the English text
c. I agree with you that those with the white garments are lukerwarm christians that didn't make it in the rapture (the 5 unwise virgins), but not only these, they are also people that listened to the angel's preaching and didn't accept the mark of the beast and were consequently slaughtered. Yes, rapture is a reward, so lukermarm christians will have a second chance to make it into eternal life, but it would be extremely hard to withstand the great tribulation. Often a thing is ignored. If the belief that the Holly Spirit is who restrains the antichrist is right, and the HS goes together with the church in Heaven, that means that the gospel as we know it now will not be valid. There will not be any more new birth, nor Baptism in the Spirit, nor sanctification by the Spirit, nor any kind of help from God, a whole new situation for those who stay behind. Salvation will now be aquired by choosing sides, together or against the antichrist, accepting or not accepting the mark. So, can we claim that salvation can be lost, since many that will be left behind will eventually accept the mark?
d. 1 Cor 3:15 about those escaping destruction as through fire is something to be considered before the rapture. The reward will now be rule over nations during the millenium. As it is obvious that since the Spirit goes up, obedience to God's Laws is almost impossible, one escaping from his passions, sinful conditions, will be almost impossible too. Serving God will be also impossible, anything that we consider that increases our wage in Heaven now will be removed. So martyrdom is now the only way to get a reward.
e. Can Hebrews 9:27 be appilied to people like Lazarus who was resurrected by Jesus?. He eventually died twice.
Further comment. Yes; I agree that those who are "kings and priests" will have a rulership that those who endure martyrdom to produce fruit and prove faithfulness will not as far as the Millenium Kingdom is concerned. Clearly the issue of being raised from the dead isn't just confined to Lazarus but to those that Elijah perfomed this on. In fact; Elijah and the other prophet themselves also will die for 3 1/2 days and rise again. The issue here is the complete decay of the flesh; which didn't occur in that short period of time. All of these individuals died who were miraculously raised from the dead in history. This was a temporary condition; therefore albeit they were dead for a few days. With the 2 prophets they are a type and shadow of Christ NOT having their bodies decay before their permanent Resurrection.
In light of the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiaha 30:7) it is clear that God has a plan for the Jews as a nation and as a whole. We see this also in Romans 11:25; indicating the "fullness of the Gentiles coming in" which would be the end of the church age.
I am not one who argues between dispensation and covenants; as I see both at play here. God has in a sense at that point ended the "Age of Grace" although obviously those saved in all dispensations were saved by grace ( Romans 4). Right now the wickedness is being restrained by the presence of the Body of Christ; the true remnant who are Spirit filled. God did have promises as to the Promised Land and its boundaries; as well as the house of God being a place for prayer for all people. The atoning sacrifice of Christ was able to bring a New covenant as to how God's people were required to worship; and it opened it up in general for Gentile nations. As Christ stated the "Gospel of the Kingdom" ( Matt. 24:14) won't be preached to all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man returns. It was cut short and is held back by politics; it will resume in full after the Rapture.
When I said the Holly Spirit is going to go together with the church I didn't mean that He goes away completely from the world. This is not possible. God is present in the universe through His Spirit. As Paul said to Athenians we are all living inside Him(His Spirit), He fills the universe. But the ministry of the HS in the church pauses to exist. Because He leaves (His ministry ends) together with the church. There is no need for Him to stay behind (to minister), the purpose of being in the world is the church, no other reason.The Spirit was given to the church to protect us, to guide us, to guide the work of salvation, to give the teaching to the ministers, to reveal the truth in anyone of us, to make new births, to baptise believers in Him, give spiritual gifts etc, these will not be present after the rapture. Many things of the NT are not valid now. Of course the Blood of Jesus is always available to people but this is as far as it goes. Nothing else from the gospel follows in that age. If they were then we could claim that another church would be initiated again, but the church is not mentioned in the Revelation at all, just people sporadic here and there. Also no help from God to people (including believers) is mentioned in Rev, just wrath and only wrath. The only help is for Hebrews, that woman who is sent to the dessert to be protected from the satan. The 144000 seem to be the first fruits of the Hebrew nation to be saved, later the whole nation is saved.
The prophets of the Old Testament didn't have the Spirit dwelling in them. He came to them, the miracle or prophesy was performed, and then He went away. He didn't stay inside them as it occurs in the New Testament. So no wonder for the 2 prophets, they are the type of the Old Testament prophets. I don't understand what you say about the lukerwarm christians, do you mean that they will be all saved at the end? Probably you mean that, since this is what predestination is.
I was going to give a detailed answer; yes I agree with Predestination and those saved who are determined. As to lukewarm people; that isn't the only reason for spiritual chastisement or worse; or the only reason someone could be a tare. It certainly could indicate a heart never regenerated. I choose to look at it in the context of addressing the churches. The question is how far someone can be in sin and still be saved. There are warnings of those who would deny Christ; definitely showing that a person will be rejected in front of the Holy angels if they deny His name. We still can think of those like Peter who may appear "on fire" for Him but it is more of their own strength they are relying on. Certainly; all self reliance has to be taken out of the picture as to our spiritual state. No matter how mature we are; of course we can leave our first love.
I did want to state that in the Millennium Age and starting with the Tribulation; we have a different but in no way less glorious function of the Holy Spirit. The same goes for Christ; there are clearly no atheists by the sixth seal. He will be visible and known yet somehow rejected by many descendants of those who physically survive into the Millennium. We will be ruling and reigning for a time over natural men. I believe that has something to do with the ceremonial aspect of a Temple as one has to be purified to be in God's presence in natural bodies and live.
It is true; sadly that many delude themselves thinking that they should be in the Tribulation or that they will repent once that occurs. To deliberately delay is foolishness. It is better to err on the side of caution; and we should warn anyone thinking they have lots of time to repent as today could be their last day on earth. God may allow some to be blinded now to awake later.
Once it is known; what has happened there is no hiding place for those with one foot in the world if they truly know Christ. That is my point.
I once again respond with Revelation 13:8 as to those who worship the Beast. This is a predetermined outcome. The restrainer is removed; but that clearly doesn't mean the Holy Spirit in its entirety (lest the call for true worship be in vain). We have reverted to the "signs and wonders" type of manifestation; and prophecy (in light of the 2 witnesses being allowed whenever they wish to bring plagues as Moses and Aaron were enabled to do as well as Elijah in his first ministry). The church is gone and probably certain gifts there as well. The only church will be the false one that is a corporate entity. The clearest reason for this is as I stated previously; certainly by the sixth seal there is no more need to preach the Gospel as it is now; since everyone will know about God and the Son; so a PROCLAMATION OF THE KINGDOM is given. It is not LOVING the truth that 2 Thessalonians warns about.
It is interesting that we agree on the lukewarm Christians and their fate here. I tend to look at it backwards from normal logic; that once all the distractions as to the calling and producing fruit are gone (after the Rapture) that these individuals will finally live in the Spirit even as they are dying physically. Their identity in Christ right now is choked out; they likely are fearing death greatly; and are being held captive against their will (i.e. the life of Christ within them) because besetting sins have been strangling their growth. Persecution and martyrdom; consequently will be a great release; and there is not going to be an issue there for those who have Christ in this type of sacrifice. Again; it seems somehow that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet the "mystery" will be complete which I would say is the end of the church age.
It seems the 144,000 are translated (as they aren't mentioned with those under the altar). It seems that those not taking the mark are part of a later group or the great multitude. Anyway; thanks for your input.
If half of the elders are from Old Testament and they are represantatives of saved people in the OT times, then this means that OT saints will take part in the rapture as well There is a debate about that (Verses Rev 5:9-10 do not hide anyhting in greek). One question though. When you say whole church do you mean people from OT as well? Because I think when we say church we mean the NT saints only. GBU
The four beasts before the throne show the continuing narrative in Ezekiel 1:5. These were and are still continually praising the Lord. The elders once again appear in verse 10 casting their crowns down and giving praise to God's attributes.
When we get to chapter 5; we see that the elders discuss being redeemed from every tribe tongue and nation (verse 9 and 10). So it would seem that they are representative of the whole church; or else a larger group was also included in the text and the way it is translated seems to hide it. I have heard that analogy; in any case clearly the reference to "kings and priests" such as represented in 1 Peter 2:9 and other scriptures makes it clear the whole victorious raptured group of saints from the church age are meant here. Other scriptures; however mention the warning of losing reward ( Rev. 3:11); and indicate crowns are rewards for specific things. Those who are raptured will recieve a crown for those eagerly looking forward to that Day ( 2 Tim. 4:8). Certainly; however those who make it in as through the fire ( 1 Cor. 3:15) will suffer loss; and many may not have crowns or be kings and priests during the Millennium. Those who have more fruit have bigger reward ( Luke 19:17-19); and some who hide their "talents" will lose even what they thought they had ( Luke 19:24). A similar parable shows that servant being cast into outer darkness; either the Tribulation or hell.
So we can barely enter heaven; or be a tare if not investing what He gave us and producing fruit. Food for thought!
I don't argue that the 24 elders are represantatives of both OT and NT time
a. May Daniel 12:1 refer only to the living Jews at that time and not the ones that died before Christ(?)
B The original text doesn't make things clearer that the English text
c. I agree with you that those with the white garments are lukerwarm christians that didn't make it in the rapture (the 5 unwise virgins), but not only these, they are also people that listened to the angel's preaching and didn't accept the mark of the beast and were consequently slaughtered. Yes, rapture is a reward, so lukermarm christians will have a second chance to make it into eternal life, but it would be extremely hard to withstand the great tribulation. Often a thing is ignored. If the belief that the Holly Spirit is who restrains the antichrist is right, and the HS goes together with the church in Heaven, that means that the gospel as we know it now will not be valid. There will not be any more new birth, nor Baptism in the Spirit, nor sanctification by the Spirit, nor any kind of help from God, a whole new situation for those who stay behind. Salvation will now be aquired by choosing sides, together or against the antichrist, accepting or not accepting the mark. So, can we claim that salvation can be lost, since many that will be left behind will eventually accept the mark?
d. 1 Cor 3:15 about those escaping destruction as through fire is something to be considered before the rapture. The reward will now be rule over nations during the millenium. As it is obvious that since the Spirit goes up, obedience to God's Laws is almost impossible, one escaping from his passions, sinful conditions, will be almost impossible too. Serving God will be also impossible, anything that we consider that increases our wage in Heaven now will be removed. So martyrdom is now the only way to get a reward.
e. Can Hebrews 9:27 be appilied to people like Lazarus who was resurrected by Jesus?. He eventually died twice.
In light of the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiaha 30:7) it is clear that God has a plan for the Jews as a nation and as a whole. We see this also in Romans 11:25; indicating the "fullness of the Gentiles coming in" which would be the end of the church age.
I am not one who argues between dispensation and covenants; as I see both at play here. God has in a sense at that point ended the "Age of Grace" although obviously those saved in all dispensations were saved by grace ( Romans 4). Right now the wickedness is being restrained by the presence of the Body of Christ; the true remnant who are Spirit filled. God did have promises as to the Promised Land and its boundaries; as well as the house of God being a place for prayer for all people. The atoning sacrifice of Christ was able to bring a New covenant as to how God's people were required to worship; and it opened it up in general for Gentile nations. As Christ stated the "Gospel of the Kingdom" ( Matt. 24:14) won't be preached to all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man returns. It was cut short and is held back by politics; it will resume in full after the Rapture.
When I said the Holly Spirit is going to go together with the church I didn't mean that He goes away completely from the world. This is not possible. God is present in the universe through His Spirit. As Paul said to Athenians we are all living inside Him(His Spirit), He fills the universe. But the ministry of the HS in the church pauses to exist. Because He leaves (His ministry ends) together with the church. There is no need for Him to stay behind (to minister), the purpose of being in the world is the church, no other reason.The Spirit was given to the church to protect us, to guide us, to guide the work of salvation, to give the teaching to the ministers, to reveal the truth in anyone of us, to make new births, to baptise believers in Him, give spiritual gifts etc, these will not be present after the rapture. Many things of the NT are not valid now. Of course the Blood of Jesus is always available to people but this is as far as it goes. Nothing else from the gospel follows in that age. If they were then we could claim that another church would be initiated again, but the church is not mentioned in the Revelation at all, just people sporadic here and there. Also no help from God to people (including believers) is mentioned in Rev, just wrath and only wrath. The only help is for Hebrews, that woman who is sent to the dessert to be protected from the satan. The 144000 seem to be the first fruits of the Hebrew nation to be saved, later the whole nation is saved.
The prophets of the Old Testament didn't have the Spirit dwelling in them. He came to them, the miracle or prophesy was performed, and then He went away. He didn't stay inside them as it occurs in the New Testament. So no wonder for the 2 prophets, they are the type of the Old Testament prophets. I don't understand what you say about the lukerwarm christians, do you mean that they will be all saved at the end? Probably you mean that, since this is what predestination is.
I did want to state that in the Millennium Age and starting with the Tribulation; we have a different but in no way less glorious function of the Holy Spirit. The same goes for Christ; there are clearly no atheists by the sixth seal. He will be visible and known yet somehow rejected by many descendants of those who physically survive into the Millennium. We will be ruling and reigning for a time over natural men. I believe that has something to do with the ceremonial aspect of a Temple as one has to be purified to be in God's presence in natural bodies and live.
It is true; sadly that many delude themselves thinking that they should be in the Tribulation or that they will repent once that occurs. To deliberately delay is foolishness. It is better to err on the side of caution; and we should warn anyone thinking they have lots of time to repent as today could be their last day on earth. God may allow some to be blinded now to awake later.
Once it is known; what has happened there is no hiding place for those with one foot in the world if they truly know Christ. That is my point.
Agape. RP
It is interesting that we agree on the lukewarm Christians and their fate here. I tend to look at it backwards from normal logic; that once all the distractions as to the calling and producing fruit are gone (after the Rapture) that these individuals will finally live in the Spirit even as they are dying physically. Their identity in Christ right now is choked out; they likely are fearing death greatly; and are being held captive against their will (i.e. the life of Christ within them) because besetting sins have been strangling their growth. Persecution and martyrdom; consequently will be a great release; and there is not going to be an issue there for those who have Christ in this type of sacrifice. Again; it seems somehow that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet the "mystery" will be complete which I would say is the end of the church age.
It seems the 144,000 are translated (as they aren't mentioned with those under the altar). It seems that those not taking the mark are part of a later group or the great multitude. Anyway; thanks for your input.
If half of the elders are from Old Testament and they are represantatives of saved people in the OT times, then this means that OT saints will take part in the rapture as well There is a debate about that (Verses Rev 5:9-10 do not hide anyhting in greek). One question though. When you say whole church do you mean people from OT as well? Because I think when we say church we mean the NT saints only. GBU
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