I believe that if a person reads any portion of the Bible with a pre-conceived idea ( such as a pre-tribulation rapture) that person cannot rightly understand how the prophesies of the Bible work together. .
The elect are the children of Abraham through Isaac AND the Gentiles who have been saved by grace.
We, as saved Gentiles, have been grafted into the root which is of the seed of Abraham in the place of the branches that were cut off.
Romans 11:17-24 says for itself ( with no outside private interpretation) that though the first fruit be broken off they can be grafted back into the tree from whence that were cut. For if we as Christians can be grafted into the olive tree how much more can the original branches be grafted into that tree again.
Take heed to verse 25 lest you form your own interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20.
In Isaiah 11 : 6 ....All the different Animals are symbolic of ppl...Different personalites...BUT the lil CHILD that leads them is the H.G..The Children of Promise...The mountain is the Kingdom of God...The babes and suckling he mentions are Spirits the H.G many As he said they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain...That which is born of the spirit tis spirit...the lil child wants to lead them to the mountain...Remember you are come unto Mt Zion the city of the living GOD That heavenly Jerusalem etc
....All these different ppl are being led by the H.G. THE BABES AND SUCKLINGS...Thats y Isaiah is saying a lil Child is gonna lead you...All these ppl have given birth to these Babes and Sucklings...the lil Child that is gonna lead you...As Isaiah said
.....They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain...For the Earth shall be full of the knowledge of the lord as the waters cover the seas...Remember Jesus has to know us...Thus the babes and sucklings the H.G. that is gonna lead us into all truth...This is y we must be bornagain...From above ...These children are heavenly born in us via his Seed
.....When Isaiah said KNOWLEDGE shall cover the earth as the waters cover the seas...As God told JEREMIAH....I will KNOW THEM all from the least to the greatest which is the NEW COVENANT...A birthing Covenant...Thus the babes and sucklings the Woman with Child in Rev 12 v 5 is birthing the Children..Jesus said unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...This Isaiah 11 : 6 is nothin less then the way the kingdom will come...by a heavenly Birth...We are gonna birth a lil child...We be the animals that are gona be led by a lil Child...That Child of PROMISE THE H.G...And its gonna come outta of Jesse ( God the Father ) Its a root of God Almighty the Jesse of the heavenly Kingdom..That heavenly Elect from that New COVENANT...Which says he is gona KNOW us ALL from the least to the greatest...An intimacy..A birth.GB
OK dear James if that is the case, can I ask you to interpret Romans 11:25-27 for me please? Paul talks about the salvation of Israel.
"25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 - For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins
According to these verses Israel will believe in Christ " after the fulness of gentiles be come in", that means that no other gentile is left to be saved and after Israel will believe in Crist.
When is that? If rapture occurs after the tribulation at the very end of this world, when will Israel believe? It doesn't make sense, does it? But if rapture occurs before the tribulation then it makes sence, doesn't it?
I believe Isaiah 11 speaks to that. I believe that this chapter describes the thousand yr reign of Christ.
In the first half it talks of the wolf and the lamb, the child with the asp and the lion eating grass as the ox.
Then, "in that day...".
The second half talks of the root of Jesse and how Jesus will set up his kingdom, having gathered his chosen people " again" and setting up Israel as an ensign to all the other nations. Remember in Matthew 24 Jesus warns those in Judea to run for the hills and to escape the city as the anti-christ lays siege to Jerusalem. At this time the nation scatters to other places. Then at Jesus'coming (in verses 29-31 I believe) the rapture. Then the battle of armogeddon. After all that comes the thousand yr reign of Christ.
At that time the nation of Israel will have their King and they will believe.
You are right about the prophesy of Isaiah, it is sbout Christ's thousand year reign. But who are the saints that will take part in that?
Let's read Revelation 20:4
"4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Reading the above verse It is obvious that the ones who will reign with Jesus are those who resisted antichrist and didn't get the mark and got beheaded. I think that among these people there should be Jewish people as well but not only them.
The prophesy in Matthew 24: is often attributed by some christians to the siege of Jerusalem by Romans but could be for the one by the beast as well.
I believe that we are in agreement. I'm not saying I'm knowledgeable and am right but I believe I can understand what is written and try not to read into passages too much as to read between the lines and come up with anything that is not actually there at all.
It would be wise for us all to approach Scripture as you stated," not reading between the lines" to come up with an understanding of the Scripture text that alters the meaning of the text in the context of the passage.
i joined a church that was very pretrib and all the doctrine that goes with it , they followed JN Darby very closely.
I was a new seeker at the time in less than 2 years I was totally convinced from reading the Bible that there is no pretrib rapture .
200 % sure today .
But that church kicked me out . I thought God gave me a revelation through the Bible and I was trying to help them out of their error . Not a chance . But at least I'm set free by the truth . Amen
You said you believe that if a person reads any portion of the Bible with a pre-conceived idea ( such as a pre-tribulation rapture) that person cannot rightly understand how the prophesies of the Bible work together. .
Isn't you giving them a pre-conceived idea by which they should interpret prophecy?
Just a friendly question, I hope you're not offended.
I'm not a scholar by any means . I've only started reading verses and passages with an open mind in the last couple of years. From the time I was a teen (35 or so yrs ago) I've read the passages that I was told backed up the pre-trib rapture and believed every word the pastors and teachers taught me.
Questions came up that I had to get answered. The question of who the elect that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 and the connection to the elect that Paul spoke of so many times in his letters. Romans 11 seems to speak to that subject very clearly.
I've said to my brother that if you asked 10 different preachers what a certain passage or verse means you'd get more than a few different interpretations.
I have found that so many passages are clearer to me now than what they were years ago. Each person needs to read and understand for himself. With an open mind to what the scripture has for us to learn. That's what I have done and I have been able to see the connections myself without outside help or influences.
James let me give ya my take on the Elect...Old Israel was Gods chosen ppl the elect BUT under the New Covenant it the H.G our new innerman that has to be born in us via the seed of Christ..James we must birth a new innerman. 10 times in the N.T. it speaks of us having to birth a new innerman which is the H.G... As Jesus said that which is born of the spirit is spirit thats the H.G. that Child of PROMISE...As we have borne the image of the earthy we must also bear the image of the heavenly which is the H.G. the New ELECT...OUR NEW MAN...Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision ( not jew or gentile ) but a new creature...which is the H.G Our new Innerman...the New Elect...Ya gotta realize that if old israel were still the Elect they wd not need to be BORNAGAIN OF AN INCORUPTIBLE SEED...But Jesus told Nic a Jew a teacher of the law he wd have to be bornagain...Which means there is a new Covenant in place a new man is in town...Which is Christ in you
a new Creature...If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a NEW Creature...Now under this New Covenant there is a new Elect which is Christ in you the hope of glory....Every place in the O.T. where it speaks of a heavenly Jacob thats not old Israel thats the New Israel the Israel of God...the NEW Elect is Spirit the H.G..The Children of PROMISE that is gonna be as the stars of heaven in multitude...We can be the Elect ONLY if we are a JOINT HEIR with Christ... Gal 4 : 1
.... Romans 9 : 8 Not all Israel is Israel that is the Children of the Flesh these are not the Children of God...The Elect...Its the Children of PROMISE that are counted for the good seed the Elect ...Who are the Children of Promise...The H.G. is the CHILD of Promise...That is born in us via the seed of Christ..Thus its the H.G that is the new Elect the Child of PROMISE...
....Thats y we must be bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the word of God, We must birth a NEW INERMAN which is the H.G. The Child of PROMISE...The Elect..
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
If so that's Israel.
Mathew 24:24.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
These verses seems to suggest the same.
Vs 16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Vs 20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Daniel 12:1.
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
The children of Daniels people is Israel.
Israel is also called Gods elect throughout the Scripture.
Isaiah 45:4.
For Jacob my servant's sake, and ISRAEL MINE ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:9.
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
PARALLEL VERSES.
Isaiah 65:22.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Jeremiah 30:7.
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Paul was a very educated man and so,even as he was led to write what he did from the Holy Ghost sometimes the whole passage needs to be read so as to understand what was written in the first few verses.
The Jews are the chosen people of God and always will be. As part of God's plan, because his people rejected him the Gentiles were given the opportunity to receive him. Those who accepted him were considered part of the wild olive tree but we're grafted into the true olive tree. The Jews as a people are the broken branches that the gentiles replaced but God can graft them back into the tree.
All those who have accepted Christ will be raptured as stated in Matthew 24:29-31.
This is where I can only guess what happens next but think I have it right. After the battle of Armageddon and the events surrounding it, the thousand yr reign of Chris t will take place. This is what Isaiah 11 speaks to, where the wolf lies with the lamb, the child will play In the nest of the asp and the lion eats grass as the ox. The nation has been scattered when the anti-christ besieged the city of Jerusalem but now is regathered to become the chief of nations as Christ will be reigning as their King and they will accept him now. All the nations of the world will look to Israel as the nation with power and glory for Christ will be there as well.
Brother James, God's will is that all men come to LIFE and TRUTH.
I have a question?
What do you do when you depart this body of flesh? When only the spirit remains.
Hebrews 12:23 ....and to the spirits of just men made perfect....
Some of these men (apostles) were made perfect 2000 years ago; what have they been doing for 2000 years?
John 13:36 ....Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now (while you are in the flesh); but thou shall follow me afterwards (when only the spirit remains).
Christ is IN CREATION, (as the Holy Ghost), giving creation LIFE and bringing creation to TRUTH:
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT ...
Ephesians 4:6 There is ONE GOD, and FATHER OF ALL...
God is LIFE and TRUTH.
When you leave this flesh and only spirit remains, you are ONE with GOD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE LIFE, ONE TRUTH.
Revelation 10:11 .....thou (John, also you as a ministering spirit) must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
John told the disciples to go unto ALL THE NATIONS preaching the kingdom of God; this is only possible after you become a spirit of a just man MADE PERFECT.
James there is only 1 Elect which is the H.G. the Gift of God...That Child of PROMISE...And we are just a Joint heir with the H.G...We were all born by the will of some man...Its only the H.G. that is born in us via the seed of Christ the will of God...Its only the H.G. The Child OF Promise that is born by the will of God in us sinners.... Gal 4 : 1 kjv
I hope you are doing well. I am doing better each day recovering from my surgeries, but my Mom is in the hospital since last Friday for sepsis. She is 88 and very, very ill. I have 9 siblings, so we are taking turns being there with her during visiting hours. So, my mind and prayers are on her. I was with her all day Monday.
In reading your post, I wondered, if the elect is the Holy Ghost, then that would mean that He needed redemption, which I think is impossible. So, I guess I just cannot concur with your idea here. Maybe I have misunderstood you.
Sister GiGI, I don't want to speak for Alex; but I believe he is saying that the Father chose Christ as THE ELECT, the image of himself.
And the Father commissioned his elect (his son, Christ) to go and give creation the INHERITANCE of HIMSELF.
Before the foundations of the world were laid we we PREDESTINATED to be conformed, by Christ, in the form of the Holy Ghost, INTO his likeness. The Holy Ghost is Christ, a MAN, existing in a glorified BODY.
Every time a believer comes to this truth they are also the elect, being made ONE with truth.
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT.
Man, including Christ, is this ONE BODY.
Man, the body, cannot exist without LIFE.
LIFE is this ONE SPIRIT, and this Spirit is God, the Father.
Man receives everything from the FATHER, and CHRIST (Holy Ghost) is the MAN that MEDIATES this inheritance.
It's a gift of God, through the workings of the Holy Ghost.
Dear Earl, thanks for explaining further. I just have to say that I find yours and Alex's way of explaining biblical ideas confusing and "stretched" concerning the Scripture. To me, the way your viewpoints are woven together changes the meaning of many Scriptures. I don't think that Scripture supports yours and Alex's view of who the Holy Spirit is and what happens at conversion. But then again, it is difficult to discuss things well on a forum like this when we cannot have lengthy private conversations together with our Bibles in hand and a back and forth exchange that can lead to better understanding.
So, that said, I wish you and Alex blessings to day in the name of our Lord, Jesus.
The Bible should not be a confusing thing to understand. God is not the author of confusion, rather the author of truth. The truth is there for us to discover and understand but if we begin to insert our ideas into what we are reading then we will become confused and no scripture will seem to make sense.
From the time I was young...more than a few years ago...I was taught and always been a pre-trib person. Within the last few years questions arose and scripture verses and passage didn't match up. I began to read for myself and ...all of a sudden things began to clear up. I read the Bible with an open mind with no pre-conceived ideas of my own.
I'm no longer a pre-tribber but I believe that I can read and understand more clearly.
These verses in Ephesians stressed the unity of God and the body of Christ. A very great privilege we receive by God's gracious mercy and eternal pleasure. It speaks to the various things we share in common as believers:
unity (vs. 3)
peace (vs. 3)
one body (vs. 4) we are a communion of saints
one Spirit (vs. 4) we all have the Holy Spirit living within use due to His regenerative work and indwelling
one hope (vs. 4) we all have the hope of the resurrection of our bodies and the total redemption of our being at the second coming of Jesus
one Lord (vs. 5) our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (eternal God and perfect Man in one Person by the Incarnation)
one faith (vs.5) we profess that Jesus is the Lord as described above and that He is the promised Savior and Messiah who lived a perfect life, died a sacrificial death of crucifixion, was buried, and arose from the dead after three days, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven as our Priest and King.
one baptism (vs. 5) that we all have repented and been baptized in water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit as Jesus directed in Mtt. 28:18-19 for the forgiveness of sins ( Acts 2:38)
one God (vs. 6) we confess that there is only one God in all creation-a Godhead that is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( Rom. 1:29; Col. 2:9)
So to answer your questions as to whether I think I will continue as I am in this earthly way or that I will bear the image of the heavenly.
I believe believers will be conformed to the image of the perfect humanity of Jesus, both spiritually and bodily in the resurrection. Just as Jesus rose from the dead in the same perfect human body as He died in and that the Father glorified His human body after His Ascencion, so will our earthly bodies be raised and be perfected and glorified like Jesus' heavenly human body, but not His divinity. We will never be divine
I do not think Scripture supports that the first resurrection of saints has happened yet. I think Jesus speaks to raising us up on the last day, ( John 6:40)
"And this is the will of Him (Jesus' Father) who sent mem that everyone who sees the Son (Jesus) and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I (Jesus) will raise him (believer) up on the last day." (NIV)
So my understanding from what Jesus, our Lord and Saviour has said, we will be resurrected when He comes for the second time in history at the end of this age, on the last day. That is when our dead bodies will be raised and then changed into incorruptible and unperishable bodies like Jesus has and will enter everlasting life in this body.
Note: I quote NIV because that is the version I have at home in hard copy, so one can look up these Scriptures I cite as NIV in the KJV. The reason I came on this site in the first place was to read the KJV and '"whollah" found this discussion page.)
Colossians 1:15-18 says: "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over all creation. For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus). And He (Jesus) is before all things and in Him (Jesus) all things consist. And He (Jesus) is the Head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He (Jesus) might have pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him (Jesus) all the fullness should dwell, and by Him (Jesus) to reconcile all things to Himself (Father), by Him (Jesus), whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His (Jesus;) cross." (NIV)
This verse speaks to the deity of Christ. He has always been the Son of God, the spiritual divine eternal Image of the Father in Whom all of the fullness of God dwells. The Son of God (the Father's Image) was with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the beginning ( Genesis 1:1-2) when ALL things (other than the Godhead) were created. The Godhead created all that is invisible and visible, spiritual and material through the Son.
Also, within the Godhead, that Father willed that the Son would be the Person of the Godhead to redeem mankind from sin and reconcile us to God through the shedding of His (Jesus') blood in the sacrifice of death on the cross.
This verse does not say that believers are changed from human into the divine image of the Son of God (Who has always been divine). We are changed into the glorified, perfect image of the Son of Man (Jesus' humanity)
Ephesians 4:- 4-6 says "There is one body, and one Spirit, just as you are called in one hope of your calling' one Lord, one faith. one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (NIV)
Thank you for your prayers. My Mom is hanging in there, but very ill.
Here are my responses to the Scriptures you gave me. (Part 1)
In reading Romans 8:29-30 it says, "For whom He (God) foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of His
Son (Jesus), that He might be firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He justified; these He also glorified." (NIV)
I understand this to mean that we are being conformed into the image of Christ in His perfect humanity, but not His deity, because Scripture is clear that God said that there is no other God but Him and He will not share His glory with another. When we are glorified in the resurrection, we will have glorified human bodies like Jesus' glorified human body. But Jesus also received back His divine glory after His ascension. So, He now possesses both a glorified human body and glorified divinity as He had before He was conceived in human form. Jesus, though He is a glorified human being, will always be markedly different from us, because He is also divine along with the Father and the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15 speaks about our resurrected bodies. verses 46-49: "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural (earthly body), and afterward, the spiritual (resurrection body). The first man (Adam) was of the earth, made of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as the heavenly Man (Jesus) , so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust (Adam); we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man (Jesus)." (NIV)
This verse speaks of the humanity of Jesus that was resurrected bodily but in a glorified way. In His ascension, Jesus then took back his divine glory, which we will never have. Our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus' glorified human body.
Jesus is not speaking of His divine glory, but the glory God gave Him as the perfect human. We will receive this same glory when we are perfected in heaven, having perfect humanity like Jesus.
I compliment you on the eloquence and clearity of your replys. You have the patience and willingness to express your point and back it up with scriptures.
I Peter 3:15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meakness and fear.
Sometimes I feel like I am ready to enter into these discussions but find that I don't readily support my conversation with references.
I've been a Christian most of my life but have not always lived as I should. Only in the last few years have I began to seek out what is in the Bible for me to learn. I've been in church and have it it all but never put the knowledge to practice.
I trust that I can look more closely and understand and finally give a more clear answer for what I have read and believe.
Hey Gi Gi Gbu...Meant to get back to you sooner but cd not but the H.G. has to be born in us via the seed of Christ which is the living word which is God...Thus the H.G is a livng being a baby Christ...That Child of PROMISE Jesus tells us about saying whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me...10 times in the N.T. the bible tells us we have to birth anew innerman which is that Child of PROMISE...The H.G. The multiplication of Christ in us via his seed...Thats y Peter is saying being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the word of God...And we all know that the living Word is the seed of God...to whom the word came ( his seed ) it made them Gods...Which is still in the future when that Book is opened As God told Daniel...When Daniel saw the words of wonder God said go thy way Daniel these words are sealed up till the last day...When the book is opened unsealed...Then the Kingdom comes...Gi Gi ..i pray for you and your mom right now in the name of JESUS...Gbu and your MOM AND YOUR WHOLE FAMILY IN Jesus name...Amen
....Gi Gi i say its in the future but what i mean the very near future...Any day now...k gbu
The elect are the children of Abraham through Isaac AND the Gentiles who have been saved by grace.
We, as saved Gentiles, have been grafted into the root which is of the seed of Abraham in the place of the branches that were cut off.
Romans 11:17-24 says for itself ( with no outside private interpretation) that though the first fruit be broken off they can be grafted back into the tree from whence that were cut. For if we as Christians can be grafted into the olive tree how much more can the original branches be grafted into that tree again.
Take heed to verse 25 lest you form your own interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20.
....All these different ppl are being led by the H.G. THE BABES AND SUCKLINGS...Thats y Isaiah is saying a lil Child is gonna lead you...All these ppl have given birth to these Babes and Sucklings...the lil Child that is gonna lead you...As Isaiah said
.....They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain...For the Earth shall be full of the knowledge of the lord as the waters cover the seas...Remember Jesus has to know us...Thus the babes and sucklings the H.G. that is gonna lead us into all truth...This is y we must be bornagain...From above ...These children are heavenly born in us via his Seed
.....When Isaiah said KNOWLEDGE shall cover the earth as the waters cover the seas...As God told JEREMIAH....I will KNOW THEM all from the least to the greatest which is the NEW COVENANT...A birthing Covenant...Thus the babes and sucklings the Woman with Child in Rev 12 v 5 is birthing the Children..Jesus said unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...This Isaiah 11 : 6 is nothin less then the way the kingdom will come...by a heavenly Birth...We are gonna birth a lil child...We be the animals that are gona be led by a lil Child...That Child of PROMISE THE H.G...And its gonna come outta of Jesse ( God the Father ) Its a root of God Almighty the Jesse of the heavenly Kingdom..That heavenly Elect from that New COVENANT...Which says he is gona KNOW us ALL from the least to the greatest...An intimacy..A birth.GB
"25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 - For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins
According to these verses Israel will believe in Christ " after the fulness of gentiles be come in", that means that no other gentile is left to be saved and after Israel will believe in Crist.
When is that? If rapture occurs after the tribulation at the very end of this world, when will Israel believe? It doesn't make sense, does it? But if rapture occurs before the tribulation then it makes sence, doesn't it?
GBU
In the first half it talks of the wolf and the lamb, the child with the asp and the lion eating grass as the ox.
Then, "in that day...".
The second half talks of the root of Jesse and how Jesus will set up his kingdom, having gathered his chosen people " again" and setting up Israel as an ensign to all the other nations. Remember in Matthew 24 Jesus warns those in Judea to run for the hills and to escape the city as the anti-christ lays siege to Jerusalem. At this time the nation scatters to other places. Then at Jesus'coming (in verses 29-31 I believe) the rapture. Then the battle of armogeddon. After all that comes the thousand yr reign of Christ.
At that time the nation of Israel will have their King and they will believe.
The kingdom of God arrived 2000 years ago.
The kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.
Colossians 1:27 ... this mystery Christ in you ....
Christ's First Coming was in the flesh, a ministery of three and a half years.
Christ SECOND COMING was in SPIRIT (LIFE), in the form of the Holy Ghost, like a thief in the night.
You PASSOVER, death has passed over you and you have been given eternal LIFE and that LIFE IS CHRIST.
... This mystery... Christ in you ......
God Bless You!
Pentecost was the Coming of the Holy Spirit .
Jesus said he had to go for the Holy Spirit to come . Interesting.
If the Holy Ghost is not Christ, then Christ would not have have had to leave, in order for the Holy Spirit to come.
Christ had to leave, because he is the Holy Ghost.
Christ's SECOND COMING is as the Holy Ghost, poured out on man at pentecost.
Colossians 1 :27 ....This mystery ..... Christ in you ....
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT ....
Man, including Christ, is this ONE BODY.
A body has to have LIFE.
The LIFE of the BODY is this ONE SPIRIT; God is Spirit and LIFE.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (Life) that WORKETH IN YOU (the body) both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
God Bless You!
You are right about the prophesy of Isaiah, it is sbout Christ's thousand year reign. But who are the saints that will take part in that?
Let's read Revelation 20:4
"4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Reading the above verse It is obvious that the ones who will reign with Jesus are those who resisted antichrist and didn't get the mark and got beheaded. I think that among these people there should be Jewish people as well but not only them.
The prophesy in Matthew 24: is often attributed by some christians to the siege of Jerusalem by Romans but could be for the one by the beast as well.
GBU
It would be wise for us all to approach Scripture as you stated," not reading between the lines" to come up with an understanding of the Scripture text that alters the meaning of the text in the context of the passage.
I was a new seeker at the time in less than 2 years I was totally convinced from reading the Bible that there is no pretrib rapture .
200 % sure today .
But that church kicked me out . I thought God gave me a revelation through the Bible and I was trying to help them out of their error . Not a chance . But at least I'm set free by the truth . Amen
Did not Christ say they will cast you out of their churches.
God Bless You!
It's said they will not endure sound doctrine but heap teachers having itching ears , in 2 Timothy.
The easy way is what they want .
It's just human nature .
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom . To depart from sin and error .
But deception is an easy way out but a dead end .
Staying in the word prayerfully is so important or temptation can trip us up .
You said you believe that if a person reads any portion of the Bible with a pre-conceived idea ( such as a pre-tribulation rapture) that person cannot rightly understand how the prophesies of the Bible work together. .
Isn't you giving them a pre-conceived idea by which they should interpret prophecy?
Just a friendly question, I hope you're not offended.
God bless.
I'm not a scholar by any means . I've only started reading verses and passages with an open mind in the last couple of years. From the time I was a teen (35 or so yrs ago) I've read the passages that I was told backed up the pre-trib rapture and believed every word the pastors and teachers taught me.
Questions came up that I had to get answered. The question of who the elect that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 and the connection to the elect that Paul spoke of so many times in his letters. Romans 11 seems to speak to that subject very clearly.
I've said to my brother that if you asked 10 different preachers what a certain passage or verse means you'd get more than a few different interpretations.
I have found that so many passages are clearer to me now than what they were years ago. Each person needs to read and understand for himself. With an open mind to what the scripture has for us to learn. That's what I have done and I have been able to see the connections myself without outside help or influences.
a new Creature...If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a NEW Creature...Now under this New Covenant there is a new Elect which is Christ in you the hope of glory....Every place in the O.T. where it speaks of a heavenly Jacob thats not old Israel thats the New Israel the Israel of God...the NEW Elect is Spirit the H.G..The Children of PROMISE that is gonna be as the stars of heaven in multitude...We can be the Elect ONLY if we are a JOINT HEIR with Christ... Gal 4 : 1
.... Romans 9 : 8 Not all Israel is Israel that is the Children of the Flesh these are not the Children of God...The Elect...Its the Children of PROMISE that are counted for the good seed the Elect ...Who are the Children of Promise...The H.G. is the CHILD of Promise...That is born in us via the seed of Christ..Thus its the H.G that is the new Elect the Child of PROMISE...
....Thats y we must be bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the word of God, We must birth a NEW INERMAN which is the H.G. The Child of PROMISE...The Elect..
Are you talking about Romans
11:5-7?
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
If so that's Israel.
Mathew 24:24.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
These verses seems to suggest the same.
Vs 16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Vs 20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Daniel 12:1.
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
The children of Daniels people is Israel.
Israel is also called Gods elect throughout the Scripture.
Isaiah 45:4.
For Jacob my servant's sake, and ISRAEL MINE ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:9.
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
PARALLEL VERSES.
Isaiah 65:22.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Jeremiah 30:7.
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
God bless.
Paul was a very educated man and so,even as he was led to write what he did from the Holy Ghost sometimes the whole passage needs to be read so as to understand what was written in the first few verses.
The Jews are the chosen people of God and always will be. As part of God's plan, because his people rejected him the Gentiles were given the opportunity to receive him. Those who accepted him were considered part of the wild olive tree but we're grafted into the true olive tree. The Jews as a people are the broken branches that the gentiles replaced but God can graft them back into the tree.
All those who have accepted Christ will be raptured as stated in Matthew 24:29-31.
This is where I can only guess what happens next but think I have it right. After the battle of Armageddon and the events surrounding it, the thousand yr reign of Chris t will take place. This is what Isaiah 11 speaks to, where the wolf lies with the lamb, the child will play In the nest of the asp and the lion eats grass as the ox. The nation has been scattered when the anti-christ besieged the city of Jerusalem but now is regathered to become the chief of nations as Christ will be reigning as their King and they will accept him now. All the nations of the world will look to Israel as the nation with power and glory for Christ will be there as well.
I have a question?
What do you do when you depart this body of flesh? When only the spirit remains.
Hebrews 12:23 ....and to the spirits of just men made perfect....
Some of these men (apostles) were made perfect 2000 years ago; what have they been doing for 2000 years?
John 13:36 ....Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now (while you are in the flesh); but thou shall follow me afterwards (when only the spirit remains).
Christ is IN CREATION, (as the Holy Ghost), giving creation LIFE and bringing creation to TRUTH:
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT ...
Ephesians 4:6 There is ONE GOD, and FATHER OF ALL...
God is LIFE and TRUTH.
When you leave this flesh and only spirit remains, you are ONE with GOD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE LIFE, ONE TRUTH.
Revelation 10:11 .....thou (John, also you as a ministering spirit) must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
John told the disciples to go unto ALL THE NATIONS preaching the kingdom of God; this is only possible after you become a spirit of a just man MADE PERFECT.
The IMAGE OF GOD.
GOD is SPIRIT.
God Bless YOU!
I hope you are doing well. I am doing better each day recovering from my surgeries, but my Mom is in the hospital since last Friday for sepsis. She is 88 and very, very ill. I have 9 siblings, so we are taking turns being there with her during visiting hours. So, my mind and prayers are on her. I was with her all day Monday.
In reading your post, I wondered, if the elect is the Holy Ghost, then that would mean that He needed redemption, which I think is impossible. So, I guess I just cannot concur with your idea here. Maybe I have misunderstood you.
Have a good day, Alex.
And the Father commissioned his elect (his son, Christ) to go and give creation the INHERITANCE of HIMSELF.
Before the foundations of the world were laid we we PREDESTINATED to be conformed, by Christ, in the form of the Holy Ghost, INTO his likeness. The Holy Ghost is Christ, a MAN, existing in a glorified BODY.
Every time a believer comes to this truth they are also the elect, being made ONE with truth.
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT.
Man, including Christ, is this ONE BODY.
Man, the body, cannot exist without LIFE.
LIFE is this ONE SPIRIT, and this Spirit is God, the Father.
Man receives everything from the FATHER, and CHRIST (Holy Ghost) is the MAN that MEDIATES this inheritance.
It's a gift of God, through the workings of the Holy Ghost.
God Bless You.
So, that said, I wish you and Alex blessings to day in the name of our Lord, Jesus.
The Bible should not be a confusing thing to understand. God is not the author of confusion, rather the author of truth. The truth is there for us to discover and understand but if we begin to insert our ideas into what we are reading then we will become confused and no scripture will seem to make sense.
From the time I was young...more than a few years ago...I was taught and always been a pre-trib person. Within the last few years questions arose and scripture verses and passage didn't match up. I began to read for myself and ...all of a sudden things began to clear up. I read the Bible with an open mind with no pre-conceived ideas of my own.
I'm no longer a pre-tribber but I believe that I can read and understand more clearly.
I have a question?
Romans 8:29
1 Corinthians 15:49
Colossians 1:15
The word says Jesus is the image of God, his Father.
Ephesians 4:6 There is one God and FATHER OF ALL ...
If he's is your father, as he is Christ Father, why would you not be the exactness of his first son.
We were predestinated to be the image of Christ. He is the firstborn of many brethren.
Do you believe you are going to continue as you are now, or do you believe you are a new creature (creation) in Christ.
As we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall bear the image of the heavenly.
God's will be done in the sickness of you mother. My prays are with you and your family.
Concerning your three sons; we both know the promises of God; PERFECTION, we just don't know the time frame.
God Bless you!
part 3
These verses in Ephesians stressed the unity of God and the body of Christ. A very great privilege we receive by God's gracious mercy and eternal pleasure. It speaks to the various things we share in common as believers:
unity (vs. 3)
peace (vs. 3)
one body (vs. 4) we are a communion of saints
one Spirit (vs. 4) we all have the Holy Spirit living within use due to His regenerative work and indwelling
one hope (vs. 4) we all have the hope of the resurrection of our bodies and the total redemption of our being at the second coming of Jesus
one Lord (vs. 5) our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (eternal God and perfect Man in one Person by the Incarnation)
one faith (vs.5) we profess that Jesus is the Lord as described above and that He is the promised Savior and Messiah who lived a perfect life, died a sacrificial death of crucifixion, was buried, and arose from the dead after three days, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven as our Priest and King.
one baptism (vs. 5) that we all have repented and been baptized in water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit as Jesus directed in Mtt. 28:18-19 for the forgiveness of sins ( Acts 2:38)
one God (vs. 6) we confess that there is only one God in all creation-a Godhead that is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( Rom. 1:29; Col. 2:9)
So to answer your questions as to whether I think I will continue as I am in this earthly way or that I will bear the image of the heavenly.
I believe believers will be conformed to the image of the perfect humanity of Jesus, both spiritually and bodily in the resurrection. Just as Jesus rose from the dead in the same perfect human body as He died in and that the Father glorified His human body after His Ascencion, so will our earthly bodies be raised and be perfected and glorified like Jesus' heavenly human body, but not His divinity. We will never be divine
You said in the resurrection, referring to the coming resurrection.
What about the first resurrection, you don't believe you were part of the first resurrection; therefore avoiding the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and Holy is he that hath his part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power
God Bless You!
I do not think Scripture supports that the first resurrection of saints has happened yet. I think Jesus speaks to raising us up on the last day, ( John 6:40)
"And this is the will of Him (Jesus' Father) who sent mem that everyone who sees the Son (Jesus) and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I (Jesus) will raise him (believer) up on the last day." (NIV)
So my understanding from what Jesus, our Lord and Saviour has said, we will be resurrected when He comes for the second time in history at the end of this age, on the last day. That is when our dead bodies will be raised and then changed into incorruptible and unperishable bodies like Jesus has and will enter everlasting life in this body.
Note: I quote NIV because that is the version I have at home in hard copy, so one can look up these Scriptures I cite as NIV in the KJV. The reason I came on this site in the first place was to read the KJV and '"whollah" found this discussion page.)
Part 2
Colossians 1:15-18 says: "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over all creation. For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus). And He (Jesus) is before all things and in Him (Jesus) all things consist. And He (Jesus) is the Head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He (Jesus) might have pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him (Jesus) all the fullness should dwell, and by Him (Jesus) to reconcile all things to Himself (Father), by Him (Jesus), whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His (Jesus;) cross." (NIV)
This verse speaks to the deity of Christ. He has always been the Son of God, the spiritual divine eternal Image of the Father in Whom all of the fullness of God dwells. The Son of God (the Father's Image) was with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the beginning ( Genesis 1:1-2) when ALL things (other than the Godhead) were created. The Godhead created all that is invisible and visible, spiritual and material through the Son.
Also, within the Godhead, that Father willed that the Son would be the Person of the Godhead to redeem mankind from sin and reconcile us to God through the shedding of His (Jesus') blood in the sacrifice of death on the cross.
This verse does not say that believers are changed from human into the divine image of the Son of God (Who has always been divine). We are changed into the glorified, perfect image of the Son of Man (Jesus' humanity)
Ephesians 4:- 4-6 says "There is one body, and one Spirit, just as you are called in one hope of your calling' one Lord, one faith. one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (NIV)
... continued in Part 3
Thank you for your prayers. My Mom is hanging in there, but very ill.
Here are my responses to the Scriptures you gave me. (Part 1)
In reading Romans 8:29-30 it says, "For whom He (God) foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of His
Son (Jesus), that He might be firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He justified; these He also glorified." (NIV)
I understand this to mean that we are being conformed into the image of Christ in His perfect humanity, but not His deity, because Scripture is clear that God said that there is no other God but Him and He will not share His glory with another. When we are glorified in the resurrection, we will have glorified human bodies like Jesus' glorified human body. But Jesus also received back His divine glory after His ascension. So, He now possesses both a glorified human body and glorified divinity as He had before He was conceived in human form. Jesus, though He is a glorified human being, will always be markedly different from us, because He is also divine along with the Father and the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15 speaks about our resurrected bodies. verses 46-49: "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural (earthly body), and afterward, the spiritual (resurrection body). The first man (Adam) was of the earth, made of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as the heavenly Man (Jesus) , so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust (Adam); we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man (Jesus)." (NIV)
This verse speaks of the humanity of Jesus that was resurrected bodily but in a glorified way. In His ascension, Jesus then took back his divine glory, which we will never have. Our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus' glorified human body.
You said, Jesus took back his divine glory, which we will never have.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given THEM; that they MAY BE ONE as WE ARE ON.
God Bless YOU.
Jesus is not speaking of His divine glory, but the glory God gave Him as the perfect human. We will receive this same glory when we are perfected in heaven, having perfect humanity like Jesus.
I Peter 3:15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meakness and fear.
Sometimes I feel like I am ready to enter into these discussions but find that I don't readily support my conversation with references.
I've been a Christian most of my life but have not always lived as I should. Only in the last few years have I began to seek out what is in the Bible for me to learn. I've been in church and have it it all but never put the knowledge to practice.
I trust that I can look more closely and understand and finally give a more clear answer for what I have read and believe.
Thank you and God bless.
....Gi Gi i say its in the future but what i mean the very near future...Any day now...k gbu
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