Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • No pretrib,midtrib,postrib rapturejesus comes back one time for those who are alive and remain in him! 1thessolonians 4:15-17 alive and remain mentioned two times means pay attention please pray and ask the lord to reveal the truth to you and read for yourselves

    matthew 13:24-30 first the tares are gathered, and bundled to be burned, then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

    john 16:33 these things i have spoken unto you,that in me (jesus) you might have peace. in the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; i have overcome the world.
  • S Spencer - in Reply
    Hi Thomas.

    May I ask, What's the purpose?

    Does it save lives?

    I agree correct answers in this area is good and knowledgeable,

    But you didn't pose a question, just a challenge.

    Here's what's important.

    1 John 5:11-13. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    When the Lord returns we all will have to give an account.

    2 Corinthians 5:10.

    I would love to receive one and here this. Matthew 25:21.

    I don't think I'll hear that spending all my time chasing down anymore that believes in the rapture.

    But I would urge anyone to get their household ready and be watchful.

    We have to be careful on how and when to engage because some find and treat the bible as 'Just" fascinating, or "Just" Interesting and treat the books as a great conversation piece.

    There's no virtue in this.
  • Roman - in Reply
    Spencer,

    Do you think the 1st resurrection saints, Revelation 14:1, and elders, will be judged alongside the 2nd resurrection group, at the great white throne? Are they exempt, and weren't they judged in the twinkling of an eye at the 7th trumpet, 1,000 years earlier?
  • The modern rapture doctrine was never taught by the early church. Study John Nelson Darby and a Scotish girl named 'MacDonald' from whom this theory emerged.

    Let us consider these verses in the KJV of Matthew 24:

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    AFTER the tribulation of those days........the angel GATHER TOGETHER THE ELECT!!!!!

    Corrie Ten Boom's whole ministry that the Lord gave her was to warn Christians of the coming tribulation. She herself knew much about tribulation, having lost her whole family in a concentration camp! On one of her ministry trips, she was in China; Christians there told her about how American missionaries lied to them, and said they'd never have to go through tribulation, assuring the Chinese believers that before suffering-- they'd be raptured away. Then came Mao's tyranny - and Christians suffered horribly! Worse yet, many stumbled in faith because they were NOT raptured!! They thought that Jesus had 'let them down'!!!! What a dangerous doctrine!!

    Christians in so many places today go through great and fiery tribulation, and experience hunger, cold, thirst, imprisonment, torture and death. We dare not ignore that, lest we stumble as well!! We must have our loins girt, and seeking the Lord now to have grace and strength to endure! He who ENDURES to the end shall be saved! Amen!

    Blessings to one and all....
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Kay, you can keep better track of events within trumpets 5-6-7:

    The fifth trumpet began tribulation: Rev 9:1-11 "Immediately after" comes the day of the Lord strike. The 144,000 saints are sealed from death, prior.

    The sixth trumpet ( Mat 24:29) begins great tribulation: day of the Lord, Babylon falls; Ezekiel 21:1-5 both righteous and wicked are "taken"; Luke 17:34-37, the "taken" are dead, not raptured.

    The seventh trumpet ( Mat 24:30-31) brings Jesus Messiah and his resurrected army of 144,000 saints to Mount Olive, Revelation 14:1

    After the 1,000 years: 2nd resurrection.

    There is no free ticket out. Too many confuse the saints' narrative with their own. Humans will leave the earth hanging from a thread, and they want right back in before the saints can clean it up? The McDonald pushed rapture doctrine is an aberration to the Word of God, yet so accepted in society. It's one of the first things a beginner learns; it's a mockery.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Hi Kay.

    Mathew 24 is centered around Israel, and Israel is called Gods elect throughout scripture. also the early church did believe in the rapture. here's just a few.

    Oregin.

    "Those whom we spoke of as dead have special need of the resurrection, since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise. (Commentary on John, 20.233)

    Rufinus of Aquileia.

    "And do not marvel that the flesh of the saints is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"

    Augustine.

    "And why should it seem to us incredible that that multitude of bodies should be, as it were, sown in the air, and should in the air forthwith revive immortal and incorruptible, when we believe, on the testimony of the same apostle, that the resurrection shall take place in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dust of bodies long dead shall return with incomprehensible facility and swiftness to those members that are now to live endlessly? (City of God, 20.20)"

    They had several different views as we do today, Some post-trib, some pre-trib.

    Will share more on this later.

    Goodnight and

    God bless
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    S Spencer,

    What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12

    It's crucial to match the event with the time line. In doing so, we see they all happen at the 7th trumpet in accordance with the 1st resurrection. The 7th trumpet resurrection is reserved for the saints; the only ones hidden in allegory throughout 7 chapters of Revelation, and mentioned elsewhere. They were groomed to administer to Christ. They show up twice in Revelation 7; they are misunderstood and under-appreciated.

    Rufinus of Aquileia.

    "And do not marvel that the flesh of the SAINTS is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"

    This is a text book description of the 1st resurrection. Paul lacked saying he was talking about saints.

    Most rapturists leave before the 6th trumpet, before the day of the Lord, before the cataclysmic attack. All the examples you gave were for the 7th trumpet. You must be in the group that thinks you will be resurrected with the saints, that you are first fruits? That's a big difference compared to being removed by Jesus prior to Jesus and the beast army wrecking the earth with a curse.

    The olden Christian's didn't know too much better than today. In my career as a Christian, I have gotten many meanings wrong because I wanted it to fit. Then, after frustration, you get the answer.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Roman.

    My reply was to show Kay when she said "The modern rapture doctrine was never taught by the early church. Study John Nelson Darby and a Scotish girl named 'MacDonald' from whom this theory emerged" End quote.

    You said, " Spencer What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12.

    End quote.

    However these are rapture quotes by them. again, Here's fragments of the post.

    Oregin

    "since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise."

    Rufinus of Aquileia.

    "to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air."

    I have been involved in several debated topics here on this site, mostly something to do with directly or indirectly to salvation.

    I've read your views.

    Our views are far off!!

    As I said to Thomas I share with you.

    1 John 5:11-13. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    When the Lord returns we all will have to give an account.

    2 Corinthians 5:10.

    I would love to receive one and hear this. Matthew 25:21.

    I don't think I'll hear that spending all my time chasing down anymore that believes in the rapture.

    But I would urge anyone to get their household ready and be watchful.

    We have to be careful on how and when to engage because some find and treat the bible as 'Just" fascinating, or "Just" Interesting and treat the books as a great conversation piece.

    There's no virtue in this.

    I add, I have no Interest in turning this site into a battle ground over less important issues.

    Are you Interested in discussing soteriology?
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    "I've read your views.

    Our views are far off!!"

    Spencer, tell me what you disagree with, we can have a healthy conversation to level the field. My views are based on scripture defining itself through corresponding scripture. I've memorized to heart most of it. So, anything I've said that hasn't happened yet, I can explain through simple reasoning. If I'm wrong about what I write, then that needs attention. Since it's based in the future, interpretation, and I haven't seen the future, but for scripture, my views becomes more nuanced. That means I use the prophets' word to mitigate the gap, so you will gain from it.

    I've given you a lot of material to dissect and question. For every issue you have, you must explain your personal method of understanding, and how you got there. Please review my work and write down each trespass for examination. Throw everything you got at me, perhaps I need humbled, and am the last one to know it. Looking forward to it, Spencer.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Thanks for your reply Roman.

    Please bare with me, I'm at work right now and will try to set aside some time to engage.

    FIRST Please tell me a little something about your views on salvation. and fruit barring, and how this salvation includes the old testament saints.

    Looking forward to hearing from you.

    God bless.
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Spencer,

    Jesus said 2 commandments are most important, above all. If I follow the commandments, I will be OK at that. I don't need to dissect a butterfly to see how it flies. My impression is that everyone good and bad make it to the promised land, the tainted spirits we wear will be made whole so we haven't the capacity to sin. Even though it's dangled in our faces, the lake of fire is only for the 3 evil spirits, and no one else. Too much speculation and fuss is made over what will never be known and confirmed from the hear and now. Anything that occurs past the 7th trumpet is beyond our scope, beyond our comprehension, and out of this world. For all we know, our salvation comes from being thrown back into the universe as dust particles, into a new realm.



    I don't think about my salvation, I don't worry about it, because it's not mine to entertain, but God's.

    My personal salvation is rooted in selfishness that I could be good enough to make the grade.

    I seek truth well before salvation. I was never a fanatic for life, so I look forward to death, the charade over. I wouldn't mind being blotted out as if I never existed, no record, that would be fine with me, too. I will have to wait and see what the Lord has in store for me.
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    What can you tell me about salvation?
  • Hebrews 9:28

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    There are only two 'comings' of the Lord given in Scripture; the first to be born of a virgin, to be our Savior.

    The second time - as conquering King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ our Redeemer.

    My understanding is, that pre-tribulation theorists then, add to scripture saying Christ is appearing three times.

    Have a grace-filled day, Spencer.
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Kay,

    I appreciate your knowledge, here. Jesus also comes symbolically at the 6th trumpet, day of the Lord, the day named after Him. Jesus comes like a thief to lay the land desolate (both houses of Israel).

    Jesus participates at the falling away in Spirit:

    Isaiah 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even the LORD], and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

    Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not, 6th trumpet.

    Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, 6th trumpet.

    Joel 2:9 Jesus comes in at the windows "like a thief" at the day of the Lord.

    God even calls the beast army, "His army", and praises anti-christ's might, Joel 2:11

    Everything Jesus warns us about is facilitated through anti-christ's scriptural actions against us. Jesus warns us of a surprise attack, a sudden strike, then we find out that that's what anti-christ is preparing for a year, month, day and hour. Jeremiah 15:6-9 "I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city".

    As a cautionary note about the day of the Lord and America:

    Ezekiel 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Hi Kay.

    Thanks for your reply.

    I've never heard a pre-trib view taught that there is 3 comings of Christ, I always understood that there is the 1st coming and the second coming to Earth.

    The rapture is called the "harpazo" in the Greek. meaning "to snatch away" or "to seize," The Lord don't come to the earth, We go to him!

    1 Thessalonians 4:17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    His second coming he comes to the Earth with judgment.

    In these 2nd coming verses there's no mention of the removal of saints.

    Here's just a few of many.

    Zechariah 14:4.

    Revelation 19:11-16,

    Revelation 20:1-6.

    Matthew 25:31-32.

    The 2nd coming he comes with his saints.

    If he raptured in his 2nd coming when he comes and make war against the nations who's going to populate the Millennium?

    Here's parallel verses to

    Mathew 24:31.

    Isaiah 11:12.

    Jeremiah 23:7-8.

    Jeremiah 16:14-15.

    Ezekiel 34:12-13.

    Isaiah 45:4.

    Goodnight Kay and God bless.
  • Toby - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    I believe if you study your KJB. You'll see Matthew 24 is directed to the Jewish people where as Paul brings the gospel to the gentiles that's where the mystery of the rapture is revealed
  • Roman - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    Toby,

    Matthew 24 is directed towards the whole house of Israel. One house receives the abomination of desolation, the other, captivity Joel 3:1 It was Jesus who went after the lost sheep of Israel, why would He exclude them from Mat 24?

    Ezekiel 38 is directed towards both houses of Israel, vs 9 & 16 show 2 clouds covering each land.

    Ezekiel 21:19-20 two lands destroyed from 1 land.
  • Thank you for your comment, Toby.

    This is a very broad subject, and too deep for just a forum. The Servus Christi you tube channel has an excellent teaching on this subject; Joshua does a very studious job laying this all out; and he is a much better expounder than I am. If you're interested, you an go to that channel and search the video out.

    God bless!
  • Amen Sister Kay!

    Isaiah 27:12 An it shall come to pass in that day ......ye shall be GATHERED one by one, O ye children of Israel.

    GBU
  • PEOPLE PLEASE READ THE SCRIPTURES YOURSELF - in Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-16

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.

    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHALL NOT prevent them WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST.

    Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Mishael comment: I hope you're using a Bible version that is not the King James Version?

    The Bible says the dead Christians are "raptured" first.

    Please do not say it again because it is heresy!



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