Bible Discussion Thread

So, after 20 years of intense searching, study and reference-gleaning using the Concordant Language references of Hebrew-Chaldee and Greek, I am not able to find ANY Scripture that states emphatically that anyone is going to Heaven, or that anyone but Jesus has gone, and He went "BACK" to Heaven from whence He came. The Scriptures used by the denominational churches and every church that I have been to (save one) to PROVE the "doctrine" they have devised to support the premise of "Rapture" (also NOT found in the Scriptures), specifically regarding being "coming in the clouds", "caught up", "in the air", "so shall we ever be", are all references that, when studied in the concordant language, present something entirely different from rapture as it is presented. apantesis is the Greek word used to describe this "encounter", and it can mean friendly encounter, meeting away, or simply meeting. Coming in the clouds are the "glory clouds", the "shikinah glory"; the caught up is the word for "seized", as the ram was seized (caught up) by its horns for Abraham's sacrifice. "in the air", the word here is "the breathing"; the air around us and not auros (the air up higher where clouds and birds are). Considering that the "rapture doctrine" was introduced by Emanuael LeCunza, a Jesuit priest from Chile in the 1600's under the fake name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra in an attempt to take the heat off the Pope for being branded the anti-Christ by the Protestants, in a book that was propagandized by the Roman Catholic church as "banned", the Protestants quickly adopted it as bible doctrine, and the rest is "history". Go figure!

Now I firmly believe Jesus is the Christ; the Savior. If anyone has the TRUTH and not just "opinion" based on denominational doctrine, I am pleased to hear it, as I search diligently for TRUTH!

Hello my brother Philip!

I too have been studying the bible for over 40 years. I hope this helps. First someone in heaven now. Yes!

First Enoch. Gen. 5: 21-24. God took Enoch.

Second. Elijah. 2King 2:1-15. Elijah went to heaven on chariot of fire.

Third. Moses Jude verse 9. Michele and the devil fought for the body of Moses. Devil lost. Now go to Matthew 17: 1-13

Elijah and Moses appears to Jesus.

But you are right. Other then that everyone is still in the graves waiting for the second coming of Christ.

First go to John 11:11-16

Jesus tells apostles Lazarus is sleeping. The apostles had to be told sleep means dead.

Now go to Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 the dead now nothing. Meaning they are not in heaven. If in heaven they would know something. We believe that people sleep. When Christ comes the righteous will rise to go to heaven. Later the wick will rise together then punch.

Hope these helps. If you want more I will be happy to send more information.

God bless my friend.

Neither Enoch went to the 3rd heaven where God sits on His throne as John says only 1 has goner to heaven. Heb11:13 there those mentioned in vrs .:1-12 All died. Elijah didn't as went up in a whirlwinds that only occur is our atmosphere . His followers didn't think so either as they spent time looking for him, Last He some 20 years after wrote a letter to the new king Moses was seen not alive but in a vision of things to come.. And today no one goes to heaven as Ecc.9:1 all who have died are still there waiting for Jesus to return.

Hey Philip Murray,

I agree there is not any scripture that states at any time anyone goes to heaven. And Jesus is the only one who has gone to heaven from where He came John 3:13. Scriptures have been used to create a beautiful picture with the premise of not having to go through the tribulation that is coming but will be taken to heaven, adding a return of Jesus before His second coming.

There are several names Morgan Edwards, Edward Irving, a teenage girl in the lowlands of Scotland named Margaret MacDonald, and more, but spread by John Darby, and C.I. Scofield with the study bible with footnotes helped promote the doctrine. This is a deception I feel that Satan is behind, for those who are still living at the end (my opinion).

Where is in the air? Is it heaven? In Strong's 109 air (The air, lower air we breathe). In Strong's 3772 air Heavens, the visible heavens, the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, the spiritual heavens. The word air 109 was used in 1Thessalonians 4:17 and seems as it says, it's no higher than the clouds. Now, this is a gathering in the air-breathing sky. Jesus will reign on this earth and also the elect, Revelation 11:15 2 Thimothy 2:12 Revelation 5:10 on earth not in heaven and on the new earth Revelation 21:1 Revelation 22:1-5.

No scripture says we are taken up to heaven after we meet Jesus but there is the scripture that says where Jesus goes when He returns. On that day His feet will stand Zechariah 14:4, He will send His angels to gather the elect, after the tribulation, Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27. The earth is round, and the elect will be global when gathered will be in the air going to meet Jesus.

I could say more but it is up to us individually to pray and study for the understanding what is the truth led by the Holy Spirit. Consider the context when you study.

God bless,

RLW

Thank you RLW. Your input is encouraging. The "many" who come in Jesus name and "deceive many", along with the "many", may find the Truth of that "deception" when they hear "the last trump". I pray for us ALL!

Bless you!

Philip

I like Luke 23:43

As an uneducated fisherman I lack the education and knowledge to join your arguments or to offer proper response.

What I know to be true is that the Holy Spirit provides gifts, wisdom, knowledge and discernment to each. Differently and accordingly. Keep the book open. Along with your hearts and minds as Christadelphian stated.

Belief, Faith and a life of Service are the Kool-Aid.

God Bless

Ty

Dear Ty , your post did not sound uneducated , please don't do yourself down , God's plan of salvation for us is very simple , it's only us humans who complicate things . Trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not unto thine own understanding . May God bless you

Suze,

Amen! Thank you for your response.

May God bless you and your family

Sorry, Ty; wrong "citation" , but thanks for replying. The "rest" of my response is sincere. Sorry if that's confusing.

Thank you, Ty. I've not read the book you cite; more familiar with Fox's Book Of Martyrs. Perhaps I'll look into that.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I'm just an "uneducated fisherman" as well. I am diligent to "be not deceived", so I question everything, particularly my own understanding.

Some of the other responders have given good insight also. At 73, I'm still a "student" of the Bible. Blessings, friend.

Phillip,

I truly enjoyed your post and the response(s) that it has gathered. These discussions allow each of us to not only review our personal beliefs but to also spur us to dig further into the word for knowledge and understanding. Discernment and validation.

I don't specifically know where I go when I leave the flesh but I know that I would prefer the best possible place! Some, paradise.

Look forward to reading more of your posts Phillip.

God Bless

Ty

Hi Phillip. When I read your question, these verses came to me from John 14. It is very clear that where Jesus WENT, He will bring us there as well! Be comforted by this simple truth!

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I also thought of John 17, which is a beautiful prayer of Jesus. Look at what Jesus prayed in verse 24:

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus specifically TOLD us, then, that He WILL take us to heaven, AND it is His WILL to do so!

May the Lord grace you mightily as you search the Scriptures! Amen!

Thank you , Kay. I appreciate the reply and the encouraging words. I do think that those who have replied have quite misunderstand what I was saying, but that's ok. I know I have many brothers and sisters in Christ that I have not yet met, but we are one in spirit.

Be blessed.

You're most welcome, Phillip. Even this a.m. in my quiet time, your question was on my mind, and another verse came to me, and that is Isaiah 66:1 -

Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?

Heaven is God's home; Jesus will take us there. Where He is, that is where He wants us. :)

Above all, Phillip, it is vital that you be born again from above, as Jesus told Nicodemus as being vital. Unless you are born of God's Spirit, you cannot, in your own human wisdom, grasp spiritual truths. To understand that there is a heaven to win and a hell to shun is very simple to those indwelt by God's Spirit, and it troubles me that you have not, after 20 years, been able to grasp this very basic truth. Be sure you have been born again, Phillip. Head knowledge and getting some kind of answers to all of our questions is okay and has its place- but nothing is more vital than truly being born of God, and being sealed by the Holy Spirit!

Amen! :)

Thank you for the reply, Kay.

My salvation is secure; of that there is no doubt.

Yet, I will SEARCH the Scriptures all my life.

Praise the Lord, Phillip! The Bible promises that God is a Rewarder of those that diligently seek Him! We never search in vain! May the Lord grace and bless your efforts, and reveal Jesus to you more and more as you look into the pure crystal stream of the water of the Word of God! Amen!

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Hello there. I just stumbled on this website while studying. I read your comment and thought that I might take minute to show you a verse that I would say "proves" that when we die we go to heaven. You said you believe Jesus went back to "heaven" from whence he had come. Well, in 2 Corinthians 5 Paul is talking about death. And in verse 8 he says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul was ready to die and see Jesus, actually, he looked forward to that time. And it seems to me, unless i am reading this really wrong, Paul is saying that when our body ceases to function and is placed in a grave, we (our soul/spirit) will be with Jesus, who, as you have said, is in heaven. I hope i have read your comment correctly and stated my point clearly, if i have misunderstood your point, forgive me. Have a blessed day, brother.

Thank you, Jason. Your reply is most appreciated. I read all of II Cor just this morning, and I DO understand what Paul writes. But I think perhaps those who have replied have misunderstood what I was saying, but that's ok, as we all know our Savior is Jesus, and our hope is sure in Him. As Paul, we are all perpetual students of the Truth and the Word, otherwise we lose hope.

Be blessed, brother.

Hello Phillip, wondering in your studies whether you have read from some of the accounts of martyred brethren (their testimonies) within the Martyrs Mirror by Thieleman J. van Braght?

Hope the day is going well your way!

Greetings Carleton;

Thank you for taking a moment to reply. I am not familiar with the book you cite, defaulting mainly to Fox's Book of Martyrs, but perhaps I will investigate it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Be blessed.

Christian Greetings Phillip! I myself have not studied from the Fox book. What I like from the old books are personal testimonies of particular martyrs faith, what they mention and what they do not.

We have an abiding comforter.

:)

Just read the entire Bible (several times ) with an open heart and mind and you will find the Truth . Have you checked out the Christadelphian's and their beliefs ?

I have read that Christadelphians are like Jehovah's witnesses, rejecting Jesus' deity and the reality of hell.

Greetings Christadelphian.

Actually, in my 73 years of life, I have read the Bible cover to cover; more than once, and it was challenging and rewarding. I continue to study and read it and other references. My Pastor is up to 145 times! Glory be!

So, I am not familiar with the Christadelphians, but as time permits, I just may well investigate.

Thank you so much for taking a moment out of your life to share, encourage and comment. Blessing you!

It doesn't matter how long any of us live or how long we have been reading the Bible , we are all still students of it . All things will be clear to all of us , one day . God bless you .

I knew of a couple (over forty years ago) who were fellowshipping with the Christadelphians, but had left them. When in discussion with me, their biggest hurdle was believing that the Holy Spirit was a Person of the Godhead & not just a force or power sent out by God. So ingrained were they in their belief that I still wonder whether they have come to realize the Truth of this Doctrine. As you wrote, we will always be students in God's Word - His Light can wonderfully illuminate our ignorant hearts, whether during our life on Earth, but certainly in Glory.