Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Monte on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Who is God in Chapter 1? Because in Chapter 2 the LORD God, replicates chapter 1, but does it different. By using the dust of the ground, he created man and beast. While in Chapter 1, God created man in their likeness. So... What is the difference between God and the LORD God??
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Acts 17:26. And hath made of

    "ONE BLOOD" all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    That is Adam.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hey S Spencer,

    This is not to debate; I enjoy reading your posts and benefit from them, and you make this site better. Acts 17:26 one blood, I agree all nations including me and you are from one blood and that is from Adam. I am not one that believes in the gap theory I take the six days of creation as written to be the only time this world and universe were created.

    I understand the tradition of Adam and Eve being the first man and woman goes back forever but to put Adam and Eve in day six we have to look over scripture that does not support them to be the "male and female created he them". It does say all nations are of one blood, but that blood was saved in the ark with Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth of the blood of Adam and Seth the blood line to Jesus.

    My understanding is the first man, the first Adam was the first part of the plan of salvation and to undo the works of the devil, with the last part with the second man and the last Adam, Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. If Adam and Eve were not the man and woman in day six nothing changes other than a tradition. All nations are of the blood of Adam and the sin that comes with it.

    God bless and have a great day.

    RLW
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    Part 1 of 5.

    Genesis 1:26-28.

    Do these verses suggest there were more than two people on earth at this point? No, since this is day six, mankind was the first couple (Adam and Eve). In Genesis 1:26, "man" (dm, is without the article, i.e., anarthrous) refers to mankind because, after using the singular "dm," it says "let them (plural) have dominion . . ." Then in Genesis 1:27, "the man" (hdm, with the article, i.e., arthrous) is used, which is followed by " . . . in the image of God he created him (singular)," then "male and female, he created them (plural)." In Genesis 2:7-8, 15-16, 18-23, 25, 3:9 12, 22, 24, and 4:1, the arthrous "hdm" is used and refers to the individual first man, Adam. Then in Adam's genealogy, Genesis 5:1-5, it is always anarthrous "dm." In Genesis 5:1, "dm" (twice) refers to the first man because it refers to "him." In Genesis 5:2, it refers to "male and female . . . them," who were "called "dm" when they were created. So "dm" refers to both male and female, but they were the first two humans (Adam and Eve).

    In Genesis 5:3-5, "dm" clearly refers to the first man, Adam, who fathered Seth and had other sons and daughters.

    Genesis 2

    Before looking at the text of Genesis 2, it is first necessary to establish the context of the narrative. Genesis 2 is a more detailed account of the creation of mankind on the sixth day of creation and not a secondary and contradictory account of creation to Genesis 1 nor a sequel chapter to it.

    This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens . . . . ( Genesis 2:4.

    See part 2.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hey brother S Spencer,

    You sent me a lot, thank you, you spent some time, your love is shining as usual. I would love to discuss this face to face, but here we are. I will get back with you tomorrow, let me go over your post. But I just want you to know, evolution is of our adversary, and I hope you do not think I believe evolution has any part of Gods' creation.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    I definitely know you are not an evolutionist.. I enjoy reading your posts.

    And I hope you don't think I typed all of that!! I copied and Pasted it. lol.

    It's something that shows us the duel use of the word Adam amongst other things.

    It's not something I've been storing in my bag,

    I drew my conclusion from the scripture, not this article. But I believe the writer here can do more justice on the topic than I can.

    Thanks and God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    Long work day. Sorry for the delay.

    for some reason I'm unable to post part 1.

    will look into it.

    God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Brother Ronald.

    Part 5 of 5.

    In Genesis 2:22, Adam finally meets the one who corresponds to him, that the LORD God built to be a helper for him. After meeting the woman, Adam says, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she [this one] shall be called woman, because she [this one] was taken out of man" ( Genesis 2:23). In Hebrew the three occurrences of the demonstrative pronoun this (zt) in verse 23 show Adam's exclamation of the one who rightly corresponds to him. The fact that the woman (i) came from the man () shows that they are made of the same stuff. Adam goes on to name his wife "Eve" because she is to become the mother of all the living ( Genesis 3:20).

    Most importantly, in Matthew 19:4-5 Jesus quotes from Genesis 1 and 2 as referring to the same people to make a theological point on marriage. By combining Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 in this way, he in no way regarded them as separate, contradictory accounts of creation. Jesus understood the "male and female" of Genesis 1:27 as "the man" (Adam) and "the woman" (Eve) of Genesis 2:24. Genesis 2 is the beginning of the history of mankind on day six of creation week.

    There is no hint whatsoever in Genesis 2 of a group of pre-existing people from whom God elects the first couple, Adam and Eve. Rather it talks about the supernatural formation of the first man (Adam) and the supernatural "building" of the first woman (Eve). The Bible makes it clear: all mankind came from the first man that God created (cf. Acts 17:26).

    By Simon Turpin of AiG-UK

    Material for research.

    God bless.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hey brother S Spencer,

    Part 1

    May I answer with humility my understanding. The scripture covering the creation of Adam in Genesis 2 is not the same creation of mankind on day six. Looking at Hebrew words, 'asah translated made, denoting something produced, as a work. Hebrew word bara', translated created, with the same implication as to work in all of Genesis 1, that God rested from on the seventh day.

    There is a different word used in Genesis 2 for Adam, yatsar, formed meaning to fashion or form for a purpose. This is the same word found in Isaiah 43:21 proclaiming Israel to be 'the people I formed, (yatsar) for Myself', the purpose, to be a light to the nations, Isaiah 49:6. Before the resurrection, only the house of Israel had a covenant with God. John 4:22, Adam's purpose was the bloodline to the Last Adam Jesus.

    We see the word ha-'adamah (the ground) now with the creation of Adam in Genesis 2:7, was not the Hebrew word 'erets meaning earth, land, countries, used in Genesis 1. The Hebrew word -eh (field) means field, land, agriculture, which brings in Genesis 2:5 the plants of the field was not in the earth as of yet because there was not a man to till it, husbandry, Adam.

    The word translated till is the Hebrew word avad only translate here as till but the meaning is to work and serve, translated 141 times serve, and 7 times worship. What we serve and work at, we worship. Our walk is to till, same as a garden, we plow the field, we plant the seeds, we water, and God brings forth the harvest.



    See part 2
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Brother Ronald.

    Part 4.

    The context and language of Genesis 2:7 clearly rule out any evolutionary processes. This is evident from the fact that: (1) man is alone; (2) God breathes into his nostrils the "breath of life"; and (3) he is formed from the dust of the ground.

    Because Adam cannot find a helper (zer) who corresponds (knegd) to him from among the animals ( Genesis 2:20), the LORD God puts him into a deep sleep (cf. Jonah 1:5-6) and makes (bn) a woman, who corresponds to him, from his "rib" ( Genesis 2:18). The verb bn depicts the LORD God as "building" Eve out of the "rib" or side of Adam ( Genesis 2:22). It is used elsewhere in Genesis for the physical building of a city and a tower ( Genesis 4:17, 11:4; cf. Amos 9:6). The word rib (l) complements the word built, as it appears numerous times in the building of the tabernacle ( Exodus 25:12, 26:20, 27:7, 30:4, 36:31-32, 37:3, 38:7). This is a beautiful picture of how the LORD God constructed the first woman. The term built also compliments the craftsman's term fashion used for the creation of Adam ( Genesis 2:7), as the LORD God is now working with hard material and not soft dust. Eve, unlike Adam, was not created from the ground, but her source comes from a "living creature." There is no way to harmonize Genesis 2:22 with theistic evolution: it is describing supernatural creation!

    See part 5.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Brother S Spencer

    Part 2

    The Hebrew word tledth means account, record, genealogy, history, These are the generations of, This is the account of, This is the history, etc. It usually comes with a name and it is usually asserted that tledth in Genesis introduces genealogical material which regularly, though not always, follows it.

    This, of course, is problematic with Genesis 2:4 and 37:2 since no genealogy follows, and the subject matter covered by the heading appears to precede not follow its appearance. Does the heading, "these are the generations of the heavens and of the earth" precede or follow the subject matter?

    Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. In Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. All the hosts of the earth would be all living beings including mankind, on the land, the air, and the waters. Then the seventh day God rests. Genesis 2:4 is after the seventh day and is a summation of Genesis 1, "in the day LORD God made the earth and heavens".

    See part 3
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Brother Ronald.

    Part 3.

    Genesis 6:17, 7:15, 22), which is "a clear indication of life-and thereby the lifeless body became a living soul, a living being. Adam consists then of the material (dust) and immaterial (breath of life). It was not until the LORD God breathed into Adam that he became a living creature (as Paul also indicates in 1 Corinthians 15:45: "the first man Adam became a living soul").

    This means that you cannot place minutes, hours, days, or years between those two acts as they are distinct, inseparable, essentially simultaneous sides of the one creative event.

    The forming of the man from the dust of the ground shows that the LORD God formed the body almost immediately without intermediate processes. The act of formation and impartation (the breath of life) are two distinct but inseparable acts-two sides of one creative act. This means that you cannot place minutes, hours, days, or years between those two acts as they are distinct, inseparable, essentially simultaneous sides of the one creative event. This, therefore, rules out the idea that man developed from a lower form of a pre-existing hominid. If Adam was not the first man and there were other hominids prior to him, then it raises the question: in what sense was he the first man ( 1 Corinthians 15:45)?

    The ground was not only the place of Adam's creation but also his home, and because of his later disobedience, it would become his grave ( Genesis 2:15; 3:19). Adam's value is seen not in what he was made from but rather in the unique way God formed him (cf. Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3--4, 139:13-14). The man the LORD God formed is called Adam ( Genesis 2:20; 3:17; cf. 5:1), who is the only human at this point as he is alone, which is not good ( Genesis 2:18. ), until God makes a helper who corresponds to him

    ( Genesis 2:18-22).

    See part 4.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Brother S Spencer

    Part 3

    We also see the animals on day 6 are of the erets (earth) and in chapter 2 the animals, beasts, of the -eh (field), not 'erets (earth) and fowls of the -eh (field), not of the water like on day 5. God formed, not made, or created of the ground or water as on days 5 and 6.

    On day 3 "let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind", after its kind, no evolution. These were self-bearing plants to feed the beings God would create on days 5 and 6. In chapter 2 these were plants of the field, plants that had to be planted, tilled, and taken care of, a garden.

    On day 5 the winged fowls the water brought forth abundantly. In chapter 2 out of the ground God yatsar, formed fowls for Adam to name. When Lord God formed Adam, he was placed in the garden to tend it and was all alone. In Hebrew custom naming someone or something indicated one's authority or ownership of that person/thing. It's the same when God renamed Abram to Abraham and Jacob to Israel. Eve was from Adam's rib. Could all that happen in a 24hr day like day six?

    On day six, male and female and God told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish (fill) the earth. Subdue it: and have dominion over everything. How could Adam and Eve do this from inside the garden of Eden when they were only given one command. If God told them after they were taken out of the garden, God could not have said what He said in Genesis 1:31, everything was very good.

    These scriptures are about two different events and chapter 2 was not merely to fill in the details that are presented in Genesis 1.

    I could write more but I hope this shows my understanding and like I said before the bloodline of Adam and Seth was on the ark in Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Eve is still the mother of all living because everyone living today comes from Adam and Eve.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    Thanks for that very great and informal reply!

    I would like to share what I agree and disagree on.

    However that doesn't make me right on all these events. I hold most of those views apart from Adam is a separate creature from Gen.1.

    Here's one reason.

    Genesis 5:1-2. seems to put them together. It connects Adam and Eve to Genesis 1:26-28. and also cover the use of the name Adam used for both Adam and Eve.

    In Genesis 1. the writer is focused on the beginning. "creation of the whole earth including Man."

    In Genesis 2. I believe he recounts the creation with the focus on man, the garden of Eden where he placed him and the dust from whence he came,

    Therefore he refer to it as the field.

    So this sequence and change of focus in Genesis 2 is to move us on to the next phase in Genesis 3. "The fall in Eden and the serpent"

    I don't think you here anything about the Earth In Genesis 3. because the focus has changed to the field. Starting in ch 2, picking up here in Genesis 3:1.

    AND AS FOR CREATING IN GEN 1. AND FORMING OUT OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND IN GEN 2.

    I believe the writer give more detail out of the creation of Adam putting focus on the dust of the ground because of what happens here. in Genesis 3:19. " In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

    How would we interpret this verse without the details of Man/Adam creation in Genesis 2:7. if all we had was the account in Genesis 1:26-28.?

    Now this one may sound silly, I understand there's a difference in creating and forming.

    But what if you form something out of something you created? Then you have created both.

    God created the dust he formed Adam out of. And he was just a big lump of dust until God breathed life in him.

    Thanks again Brother.

    God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Brother Ronald.

    Part 2.

    The key to understanding 2:4 is in the opening Hebrew phrase tldt ("This is the history of"), as it formulates the structure of the book of Genesis. A number of scholars recognize that here tldt serves as a heading that introduces a new section of the narrative. Interestingly, this is the only time the phrase tldt occurs without a personal name, the reason being that "Adam had no human predecessors. The tldt serves two main purposes in Genesis 2:4. First, it "links 2:4-25 with 1:1-2:3. The language of 2:4 looks back to the creation account, just as the tldt in Genesis 11:10 looks back to a line of Shem in Genesis 10:1 and 10:21-31. Second, "its main purpose is to shift attention to the creation of man and his placement in the garden. The setting of Genesis 2 is the garden in Eden, in which the LORD God places the man he creates ( Genesis 2:8, 15). Because there was no man to work the ground ( Genesis 2:5), this is the reason that the LORD God forms "the man" (hdm) from the dust of the "ground" (dm). The description of the creation of the first man is given in Genesis 2:7:

    then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    Like a craftsman who shapes his material, the LORD God "formed. (yar) the man from the "dust" (pr) of the ground. The word "dust" is not a metaphor. It can only mean literal dust in the context of Genesis 2-3 because it is to dust that Adam will return due to his disobedience ( Genesis 3:19; cf. Job 34:14-15). After the formation of man from the dust of the ground, he is given human life when the LORD God breathes into him the breath of life.

    See part 3.
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Great verse brother S. Spencer. Acts 17:26 I believe seals the deal, as even Apostle Paul believed that Adam & Eve were the first human creation & none before them & all proceeded from them.
  • S Spencer - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Monte.

    I meant to say, "If you noticed Adam wasn't the( only ) thing in focus, in Genesis ch 2...There is a emphasis on everything else that comes from the ground. And how it was watered!"

    That is what happens when you proof read your post hours after you have sent it.
  • Glenn - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Chapter 1 ,.. God made all the races , an when he looked, it was good, that the 6th day creation,.. they were hunters, fishermen,.. etc,.. then in chapter 2 , he made the farmer , eth ha Adam , the man to till the ground, the woman that by umbilical cord to umbilical cord would come the Christ ,..
  • Adam - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Hello Glenn,

    What verse do you believe indicates that "races" were created in Gen 1 or 2?

    My current belief is that other races were created at the Tower of Babel. Link

    Because race (1) goes along with language (2), and geographic placement (3), and because these elements are so intertwined in culture, and because the Bible already said God did 2 of those 3, I believe the other occurred at this time, but wasn't stated. Gen 11:9. This is a pretty huge miracle only shared in a few verses, so I don't think its a stretch to believe that God changed their skin color too along with their language and geographic placement, for example, Indians in India who speak an Indian dialect, or Chinese in China who speak Chinese, Spanish in Spain who speak Spanish, etc.

    Does anyone think this theory is implausible for a particular reason?
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Hey Monte,

    God's name is written Elohim translated God, meaning strength, power, and God as the creator. Sometimes Elohim refers to plural gods, as in "You shall have no other gods before me" Deut. 5:7. At other times the referent is singular, God, as in "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1.

    In Genesis 2:4-3:24 Gods' name is YHVH Elohim translated LORD God, YHWH is the true God's personal name meaning God who brings into existence, God who originates, God as the originator and shows his intimate and personal relationship with mankind. The personal God who rules over Israel, and at the same time the one and only God who rules over all.

    Many to most accept Adam and Eve are the male and female on day six. The most obvious differences and mostly discussed are the order of creation and the manner through which man and woman come into existence. Then the question where Cain got his wife. The account on the sixth day, God created man, male and female in his image he created them. In chapter 2 God formed man, placed the man in the Garden of Eden, then He created animals and birds, then woman and it is interpreted as being in day 6.

    If you are studying this, regardless of your understanding, all people on earth today are descendants of Adam and Eve due to the flood. There are two words you may look at that are in the six days the word earth and chapter two the word field. Plants of the earth day 3 plants of the field chapter 2. Birds, fowls from the water on day five, out of the ground fowls' chapter 2, Beast of the earth day 6, beasts of the field chapter 2.

    There is more but may this help.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • S Spencer - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Hi Monte.

    Viewing your question it appears you're not asking about the creation of Adam but why the writer uses Elohim in Ch 1 and yehvh Elohim in Ch 2 vs 7. That's a good question, It appears as though there are two separate creation stories. Genesis 1 follows the seven days of creation in a chronological, organized manner. But in Genesis 2, the narrative seems to take a step back and focuses on the day God created man.

    I believe the emphasis on the name change in Genesis 1:26. Elohim is used because the focus is on the Godhead in creation so he uses words like "us and our"

    And God said, Let "US" make man in "OUR" image, after "OUR LIKENESS": and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    We do know there is one God as the Bible confirms throughout scripture. However I believe these name changes are significant.

    Touching on the creation of Man

    In Genesis 2:1-9. I believe he gives a

    re-account of Genesis 1 with the emphasis on what he formed man out of "the ground" And most Important the breath of life when he breath into his nostrils. Therefore he uses Yehvh Elohim.

    If you noticed Adam wasn't the thing was in focus, There is a emphasis on everything else that comes from the ground. And how it was watered!

    Adam/Man was put in the Garden from where he was formed to keep it. And it yielded it its fruit.

    When Adam sinned he was cast out of the Garden and God spoke this

    Genesis 3:17-19.

    It's interesting how God uses the rain, the land when speaking of blessings and cursing. ( Famine)

    We see this creation of Adam as being the one created in Ch 1 and Ch 2 as one account in 1 Corinthians 15:45. THERE'S OUR FIRST ADAM/MAN. ( Genesis 1.)

    Then we go to Romans 5:12. we see that same Adam sin as mentioned in Genesis ch 2 and ch 3.

    I hope this helps.

    God bless.
  • Monte - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Thank you for the explanation. I was curious as it was said that no man was there to till the earth, but Adam and Eve had been created.
  • S Spencer - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    You're welcome Monte.

    I hold the view Adam and Eve was created in Genesis 1:26-28.

    But there may be more to the word till as Brother Ronald said.

    He may have something there, , I haven't studied in that area but when time permits I will. I don't think it will change the order of mans creation but it may have great spiritual application.

    God bless.
  • Charles Robert Northup - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Jesus was the word of God are you trying to imply Lord God is Jesus, everything was created by him, how was everything created. God spoke, John wrote, and the word became flesh, God created everything with His word when he spoke, 1 John 5:7

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    Maybe once God created the heavens and Erath he also became the Lord over all he created that is what it appears to be, before he created anything there was nothing to be Lord over, some believe that when he created man male and female in ch 1 he created the human race and ch 1 he created Adam because Adams children took wives after leaving the garden, where did those wives come from unless there were others on the earth. We also see further in Genesis that the sons of God told wives of the children of men. So was there a human race out side of the Garden we know there was the rest of the world outside of it did that include beast and men we see pretty quickly after Adam came out other nations and peoples.. I always quote this verse, now we see thru a glass darkly and in part.............so we know we aren't given the full accounts in God's word Jesus told Paul in the vision some words are unlawful to speak, and John in the Revelation could not open the book but ate it and it was sweet to the tongue but bitter to the stomach.

    King James Version (KJV) and when that which will comes appears i will know even as I am known so I guess after Jesus comes, we'll find everything out
  • T. Levis - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    It's interesting that you're noticing the differences, I'm guessing you've read Genesis before & studying or reading again or just very observant.

    John 1:1-5, Revelation 4:10-11, Colossians 1:12-23, Ephesians 3:9, Revelation 10:1-7,

    Note: Isaiah 42:1-12, Isaiah 42:23, compare: the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke & John,

    There is a difference I believe because it seems to point out that man Adam being put into the Garden, symbolic of the Church. To tend it, where GOD seems to already have given the Genesis 1:27-28 'created female & males, direction to multiply & subdue take dominion over the earth & creatures land & sea. Genesis 2:7-8, Genesis 5:1-3, interestingly it is the lineage of Seth the Jesus comes through : Luke 3:23-38

    1Corinthians 15:45, 1Corinthians 15:42-47, Genesis 2:15, Genesis 2:18-24,
  • Daniel H. - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Perhaps vast amounts of time passed between the two events.

    How long did Adam and Eve dwell in the garden?

    It could have been ages before the "fall"



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