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  • Jim - in Reply

    Just one comment. Jesus didn't abolish the law.

    As far as the scriptures are concerned. He fulfilled it.

    Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Look into scripture and see how many times fulfilled is used in the New Testament.

    Act_13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

    See Psalms 22.
  • Rick - in Reply

    Thank you also, It seems God sent me to the right place.
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Rick This is my suggestion start Church epistles Romans through thessalonians which concerns the church

    of God in Christ in our day and time then get into the gospels Mathew Mark Luke and John. Like I said this in my

    opinion is a good way to start, but do what God puts on your heart.
  • Rick - in Reply
    To be honest I feel God is telling me to look into this first, To not be deceived, That's why I want to find it in the 1st 5 books somewhere. I have been watching New2torah, I'm sure you have heard of Zack Bauer for years, and many others, I just never actually never read it myself, Praying for what God wants me to see and understand ,and remember. Zak is big into Torah and He believes solidly the Laws are still in place, except Jesus died for our sins and that made it possible for murderers to be forgiven, Before Christ there wasn't a way to be forgiven for murder other than that all is still the same, Including food laws. But I need to FIND JESUS in the old testament, where God says he will send a prophet that turns out to be his son. This should be so easy,and I'm frustrated I can't seem to get that answer. Thank you for your help.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    Jesus in the Old Testament.

    Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    In the new testament they ask John if he were that prophet. They say in John that Jesus is that prophet.

    Joh_6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

    Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

    Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    Who came from Jesse. DAVID

    The promise to David.

    2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

    2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

    2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

    2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

    2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

    This is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ who is the seed of David and the seed of God.

    Consider verse 14.
  • Jim - in Reply

    Just thought I'd let you know, I met God Just now, we had a conversation without speak, the first thing he did is take me to this post,(Keep doing what your doing I'd guess) and you gave the 2nd answer in your 1st two verses that I asked for. I had the solve this before I moved on, God knows I have been a believer my whole life, i've prayed at least 1/2 the days/nights throughout my life, I'm not a newbie to God., I'm 60. I want to get closer to God, I wish you could of been here to witness this mind wise , There was alot more in our conservation,he took me to my own words,like 3 or 4 words at a time stopped,made me see what he was showing me,then we moved on a few more words, He was there when I was writing it,other stuff was personal,but there're was more. I will be forever grateful for your help,and may god bless you as you blessed me.

    Peace to you my friend
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim I've been a believer for 44 years and have studied for 40 of those off and on. That being said like anybody else I miss the mark from time to time. My position is if it doesn't fit with all of scripture and I also get into original

    languages which believe me at times changes understanding and makes Gods Word fit like a wet suit. Some disagree with this and that's there privilege. Personally understanding some greek and hebrew really brings some spiritual stuff

    to light. So as the scripture says 2 Timothy 2: 15 study to show yourself approved unto God, that's what I endeavor

    to do in my mind and walk always with His Love in Mind first and foremost!
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    The word of God is more powerful than a two edged sword.

    Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Keep reading your bible. My father once said to me, If I sent you a letter would you read it? I said yes. He then said " Your heavenly Father has sent you a letter...Read it."

    I'm in my late 60's and have read the bible for many years. I'm still learning from it.

  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim Given everything you showed you are correct He was both, but also their is a physical seed man and a spiritual

    seed which is what Genesis 3:15 is talking about because physically a woman does not produce seed. This what

    occurred when Mary said to Gabriel be unto me according to thy word and God created in Mary that seed to produce

    by the flesh Jesus Christ who Had to have perfect sinless blood because the life of the flesh is in the blood! Therefore

    also the line of the physical traced back to david and eventually the believing line to abraham and to the original Adam.

    So the first adam corrupted in blood line the second adam sinless blood and never sinned and perfect sacrifice for ours.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    A mans seed by itself will not produce a child.

    We need a man and a women to produce a child.

    God used the women to produce a child with a seed he implanted in her.

    The women was of the line of David.

    Matt 1:1 Both David and Abraham are mentioned here.

    What do you think God is trying to tell you here.

    Verse 1-17 deals with the lineage of Joseph. Yes Joseph is not the father of Jesus.

    He is of the lineage of David and Abraham. God put this in for a reason.

    The lineage of Mary is in Luke 3. Joseph father was Jacob Matt 1:16

    Heli was Mary's father.

    Where does this lineage go back to?

    It ends with Adam and he is called the son of God.

    Jesus is called the son of God as well as Adam.

    Jesus had the same nature as you and I.

    The difference is that he didn't give inti it.

    He didn't sin.

    If he couldn't sin then what is the sense of Heb 4

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Not only that but if he couldn't sin that means he didn't have the same nature as you and I.

    That's a dangerous thought isn't it. Consider 1 John 4

    1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Thanks for your time
  • Gigi - in Reply

    You are right that Jesus had a full

    Human nature, but never sinned. And he had a full divine nature, being the only begotten Son of God for all eternity. So both natures existed in Jesus to the totally full degree- to natures in one person. He was not part God and part human. He was fully God and fully human.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Thanks Gigi

    There is a problem with Jesus being God. Why?

    If Jesus could be tempted it means he could have sinned.

    Can God be tempted?

    Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

    But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed

    Then when lust has conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    James 1:13-15

    God cannot be tempted with evil. If Jesus is God how can he be tempted with evil? He would not be able to sin.

    Thanks for your time.
  • Gigi - in Reply

    Jesus' human nature could be tempted. His divine nature could not be tempted to sin. He operated in both Natire's, but they were not mixed together to form another kind of nature. So He was tempted by Satan in His human nature and He resisted The devil. His divine nature cannot sin, but His human nature was capable of sinning, yet in this nature Jesus always chose God's will and never sinned. His divine nature always did the Fathet's will as they eternally have the same will, essence and plan of salvation.

    You may not believe this but it has been affirmed as orthodox teaching by the church over the centuries and anyone reading can look up The Dual Nature of Jesus to read more on this.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Gigi

    Thanks for your comments.

    Could you please show me in the scriptures these beliefs?

    If I got this right. The divine nature of Jesus couldn't sin.

    I don't know where in the scriptures you got this.

  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim Just sharing scripture the life of the flesh is in the blood 17:11 our Saviour had perfect uncontaminated

    sinless blood also spirit holy and a body that was subjected to all the five senses input from the world. In his

    whole life He walked perfectly with His Father I.E. saying the right thing being at the right place at the right time

    remember he read the word also and new it luke 4:17 He found the place where it was written, there were no

    punctuation marks or chapter headings in the scrolls, also the number of times he quoted to the religious leaders

    exactly using scripture with two edge sword precision. So He studied and knew who he was and who sent Him.
  • Gigi - in Reply

    I am not sure exactly what You are asking. My comment to your post was in reference to what it seemed to me that You do not believe Jesus is God.

    Titus 2:13 days that we are " looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

    In John 20:28

    Thomas said of the risen Lord Jesus "My Lord and my God" and Jesus accepted what Thomas said. He did not deny being God.

    In Matthrw 1:23 Jesus is referred to as "Immanuel" which is translated "God with us."

    John 1:1 says "On the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

    And then in John 1:14 it says of Jesus

    "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

    So this passage in John identifies Jesus as God in the flesh (the eternal Word)

    Therefore the scripture say that Jesus is God, but he was also man, having come

    In the flesh. He had two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, both on the one Petson of Jesus.

    His nature as God cannot sin because God is perfectly holy and never changes in such qualities of His essence.

    So I think I have answered your question.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Gigi

    I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

    You believe that Jesus is God.

    Like I said before God cannot sin but Jesus could have.

    Jesus didn't and has been elevated to Gods right hand.

    That statement in itself doesn't make sense if Jesus is God.

    My beliefs are determined by what the scriptures say.

    Prove to me by the scriptures.

    Not scripture that can be interpreted one of a number of ways.

    Jesus spoke to us in parables so be careful in how you interpret them.

  • Gigi - in Reply

    I refer you to look up info on Jesus' dual nature.

    For example:

    The Incarnation and the Teo Natures of Christ

    By Stephen Wellum

    The Gospel Coalition

    This articles explains this very well. There are others you could read.

    This is my suggestion for you to read such articles. I have made my defense of my view here and don't wish to go back and forth much on this.

    But I am glad you responded. If you really are interested in learning more on this

    You will read up

    Some, as I have. I think that is the best approach. I understand that we may continue to have differing views on this. I am ok with that. I am convinced of my viewpoint.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Gigi

    I know you believe in what you believe.

    The problem I have is you are going outside of scripture to prove your point.

    Again remember 2 Tim 3:16

    All the answers are within scripture.

  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim You are correct with sticking with scripture 2 Peter 1:20+21 holy men of God spake as they were

    moved by holy spirit!
  • Gigi - in Reply
    Hi Jim

    I understand your point.

    I did give you Scripture to support my view.

    As to going outside Scripture to Prove my point, please be aware that anytime you chose to listen to a pastor preach in an expository way (we're he gives his explanation) or you read anything published from a favorite Christian author who explains Scripture, or on this site when you or anyone else explains their thinking about a Scripture verse, one is "going outside Scripture"

    If one only gives Scriptire verses on here without interpretation, then it is only Scripture speaking.

    No where in Scripture does it say we are to reject any words that are not direct Scripture quotes. We need to be open to be taught by others and there is 2000 years of Christian writings for us to consider prayerfully holding them up to Scripture as the Bereans did.

    I for one have been immensely helped by reading commentary and expositions on Scriptures and doctrines. Paul told us to

    Pursue sound doctrine, yet he did not lay out a set of systematic doctrines in his letters. But he did say that churches should have pastors, elders , and teachers to teach believers the doctrines of the common faith. Those doctrines have been preserved and expounded on over the centuries.

    Some people do not wish to listen To any of these voices of faith. Some people bristle at the term "doctrine" and "orthodox". To me this shows a resistance to learn outside of one's own interpretation or that of the "groups" they hang with. To me, it also shows an arrogance and a prejudice against persons of faith over the centuries, thinking somehow that there was a "truth gap" between the apostolic times and today. That is a short sighted and naive view, in my opinion as well as a lack of faith in Jesus who said that He would build and preserve his church in all ages. But each of us decides for ourselves whom we listen to and learn from.

    I believe the Holy Spirit does guide us, but that does not mean that each person is the sole interpreter
  • Chris - in Reply
    Hi Jim. I've stayed out of this part of the thread, as GiGi has been responding very well to you. I believe you understand when we say that "Jesus is God", meaning He is the Word of God Who proceeded out of the Being of God ( John 1:1-14) & in His Flesh He was named Jesus ( Luke 1:31,32). Jesus is not a separate God, but the manifestation out of the Being of God, Whom God had sent forth into the world. And many Scriptures have been cited by GiGi & others supporting our understanding of Christ's Divinity, just as we fully accept Jesus as the Son of God, in His Humanity & in His temptations.

    But I'm here actually to ask, why is not a problem for the 'non-trinitarian' to accept that God can send out His Spirit? I'm believing that you don't have a problem with this declaration of God's Power. I've never, as yet, heard any true believer question that there is no such act of God of both sending forth His Word to become a Man & also of sending out His Spirit to "reprove the world of sin, righteousness, & judgement" (& the indwelling of believers). Some seem to accept that God can send out His Spirit but not His Word & clothe His Word with flesh for the suffering of death. If I were to reject the Deity of Jesus, I would have to also reject the flight of the Holy Spirit from God - for it is the same God Who sends Himself out to fulfil His Will. If I limit God in reforming His Word into flesh, how can He possibly empty Himself of His Spirit - then He would cease to be God in Heaven, or at least highly deficient.

    Even if I'm unable as a man to dispatch my spirit to accomplish a work 1000 miles away, should I limit God in His Power to send forth both His Spirit & His Word? When I approach such a difficult doctrine as the Triune God, I can only get some degree of understanding it, when I first reject my human perceptions & logic of what can be or can't be.
  • Ronald Whittemore - in Reply
    Hey GiGi,

    I did not want to join in on this subject, I have discussed it before, and this is just to suggest something you may look into. You said Jesus' nature as God He could not sin. To fulfill the covenant flesh had to live a perfect life without sin to fulfill and break the curse of sin. If Jesus was incapable of sin, He could not make reconciliation for the sins.

    Hebrews 2:16-18 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    He faced and was tempted just like us, Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    He lived His life with the same temptations as we do and He overcame and did not sin, He could have but He did not give in. We have a high priest that knows what we are tempted with should motivate us and strength our faith our Savior Jesus did it and He can give us support to endure our walk. He knows what it is like!!!

    If I read your post wrong forgive me.

    God bless,

  • Gigi again - in Reply
    Hello Ronald

    If you read-read my post you will see that we agree. I said that Jesus has two Natures but these two natures are one Person. So His divine nature was unable to sin because God cannot sin. His human Nature was sinless and unfallen. Yes, he was tempted as we are tempted, and if he was only human and not divine, though in fallen, he could have chosen to sin. But as God and man in one person, his divine nature was united to his human nature (but not mixed) and this divinity kept his human nature from sinning. There were not two persons. In the body of Jesus, as some posit, but two natures united in one being.

    This just proves that mankind alone cannot resist sin, even in his untalented state. But mankind united with Christ is made able in the life to come to resist sin for all eternity. This is part of our salvation hope for the life to come.
  • Gigi - in Reply
    Oops meant unfallen in the several instances that didn't

    Make sense. The phone keeps changing what I type. Grrrr
  • THE PLAN OF GOD - in Reply
    Jesus chose not to sin. He is the perfect Lamb of God. His sacrifice for us was acceptable and accepted.

    By faith Abraham obeyed God and almost sacrificed Isaac. The willingness and obedience is what saved US.

    Generations flew by, bring the sinless blood of Jesus through generations of ancestors; until Joseph and Mary. Jesus would be fully God and LEGALLY human. Satan isn't human. He is an outlaw spirit/fired archangel.

    Satan didn't know the plan. All he knew was Genesis 3:15. Many times attempts were made against Jesus in his ministry but he was protected by God. On the day of the fulfilling of Isaiah 61/ Luke 4:18__They tried to stone Jesus.

    When Jesus was fasting 40 days He was tempted by satan. Jesus fought back with scriptures. He never sinned in 33 years. He did it FOR US! His children. He fulfilled every single prophesy spoken about Him. Look at the charts on Google. Every jot, every tittle.

    The day Jesus was crucified Satan turned the crowd into a demon and Jesus was found guilty. If Satan knew the plan, he would not of done that. THE PLAN WAS THAT THE sinless Son of God would die for sinful mankind: dead, alive and future. He would also TAKE WHAT SATAN STOLE FROM Adam. DOMINION, and the KEYS. He stripped Satan. Hanging on the Cross, Jesus's Blood ran down the Cross into the EARTH. Jesus secured ALL AUTHORITY.

    He gave us permission to use HIS NAME, HIS POWER, HIS LEGAL AUTHORITY__to absolutely act in His Will towards earth and man; Satan and demons.

    OUR PRAYER LIFE could be powerful. We're Not orphans. We are children OF THE KING OF KINGS, LORD OF lords.

    Pray for the lost to come to Jesus. Fight against their spiritual chains of sin. Like Jesus did, Use the Scriptures. Those are your weapons to use against spiritually deaf and blind, sinners.

    GO YE MEANS EVERYBODY. The Lord of the Harvest is waiting on the BODY OF CHRIST to join with THE HEAD. Jesus!! Do it.

  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Michael

    You mention Satan was an archangel.

    Could you show me in the scriptures where it says that?

  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim In the beginning there were three main angels or messengers with God Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer

    lucifer tried to usurp Gods dominion and He and one third of the other angels or messengers were thrown out

    and lucifer became the devil and satan and his followers became as he did messengers of all kinds of destruction

    in all categories. This is who instigates all the problems dealing with Gods relationship to man and man to God.

    Thank God there power and authority has been defeated for us who believe in Jesus christ and those who will

    and they know there end.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    You mentioned lucifer. It is only mentioned once in the bible.

    It means morning or day star I believe.

    It is taking about the king of Babylon.

    Read the whole chapter.

    Isa 14
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim Also the term morning or daystar are figurative descriptions for lucifer who at one time was Gods top

    angel or messenger. There are more scripture involved in this if your interested but a lot of scripture are

    different descriptions of operational methods after His downfall.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    Morning star is also used by Jesus Christ to describe himself.

    Rev 22:16
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim O.K. I see what you said now what are you asking or where are you going with this. I ask questions for

    honest reasoning to arrive at the goal of better understanding to walk with God not look what I know or don't

    no profit in any of that.
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim Correct now why was that terminology used.
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim I'm aware of that and there is a reason for that int hecontext of what was being discussed.
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim This where things get interesting because look at the context of describing lucifer Isaiah 14:12-17 specifically verse 13 [I will exalt my above the stars of God also I will ascend very lofty terminology. In Ezekiel 28:11-18 esp. verse 13

    thou Hast been in Eden the garden of God look at the rest of the verses. verse 15 thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created until iniquity was found in thee. There are times also when there figures of speech used in descriptions like verse 12 King of Tyrus Same guy.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    In Ezekiel lucifer is not mentioned. Verse 13-15

    is describing the King of Tyrus.

    You are taking this chapter and the one in Isaiah

    Totally out of context.

  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim Thou has been in the garden of Eden,the only other two in the garden that I'm aware of are Adam and Eve

    also again where are you going with this because to question with no goal is not profitable.
  • Jim - in Reply
    Hi Rick

    Isa 14:4 notice that it is a proverb against the king of Babylon. Verse 11 he is brought down to the grave. Worms under and over him. Verse 16 Is this the man? These verses are about the king of Babylon.
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim With all due respect it is more profitable to get into the positives of what we have been given by God through

    his Son jesus Christ then to get into this of what we're discussing. Being aware of our adversary is one thing, I

    deal with this on a need to know basis. But I'm willing to share some things profitable to all concerned. We walk

    on and in what we think about so I endeavor to think most about what we have in Christ or Philippians 4:8+9.
  • Rick Mentzer - in Reply
    Jim A proverb is a[ descriptive saying] look up King of babylon in scripture notice the lord is going against the

    king of babylon because all worship or anything tied to this not good. You are reading figurative language and

    literal. Again look at Ezekiel 28:2-6 this is a description of lucifer's absolute pride so you have an example

    of who this king was like in His kingdom. Then again look at verses 13-15.

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