Bible Discussion Thread

  • M
    Is there anyone who is able to prove using logic that God exists and that it is the God of the Bible that is the Highest?

    I'm not asking for my sake. I do believe. I want to see if anyone knows the answer to this challenge.
  • M - in Reply
    {Final Part}

    Once again, I did not make this thread out of hate or pride. I wanted to test this community to see how much knowledge is contained therein, and to do my part to increase your knowledge and faith. God gave us logic and understanding to understand the world around us to better understand the nature of God.

    You may have been conditioned to believe science is evil and attacks God but it's the other way around, science is the study of the world around us(God's creation) that further proves there must have been a Creator once you see how complex it is. Yes, scientists can be misled, pressured, shamed, persecuted, fired, etc. if they disagree with what "mainstream scientists" consider true, but the truth cannot be hid forever. I encourage everyone here to study some field of science as a hobby to find out how athiests/agnostics think and to find out how to dismantle common attacks on our faith. Someone's soul might depend on it one day.

    If you read all the parts of my post, thank you. If you have anything to add or something to challenge, let me know. It is by challenging ourselves that we grow. I'd like to hear if anyone has a rebuttal to my arguments.

    God bless you.
  • Christian1principles - in Reply

    Google chuck missler web site Khouse. or listen to him on blueletterbible. Audio commentaries. You will also find J Vernon McGee and others.
  • Christian1principles - in Reply
    Thanks M.

    I've been following C. Misled for years.

    In fact his material came to mind when you first posted.

  • M - in Reply
    Misled? Is that a typo or do you not like him? And if it's the latter, how does he mislead?
  • S Spencer - in Reply
    Hi M.

    That was a typo.

    I know, because I wrote it.

    Something went terribly wrong with my username. But I think Chuck missler is a great teacher.

    God bless.
  • M - in Reply
    No worries, mistakes happen. Glad to see a fellow Chuck Missler fan.

    God Bless.
  • M - in Reply
    {Part 5} I HIGHLY encourage you all to look up videos of Chuck Missler on youtube. He's the genius from whom I've learned most of these things from. If you want to take your biblical knowledge to the next level I cannot recommend him enough.

    I can't post links on this forum but look up the following videos on youtube:

    "Chuck Missler Beyond Coincidensce 1" (yes the video title is misspelled like that)

    "Knowing God - An Extraterrestrial Message - Chuck Missler" (extraterrestrial just means originating beyond this earth, don't be afraid thinking it's preaching about aliens)

    "The Supernatural structure of the original Bible text - Chuck Missler"

    "Acrostics As Hidden Messages - Chuck Missler"

    Also not Chuck Missler but a professor who disproves Darwinism

    "Professor Exposes Impossibilities of Evolution" (from the channel currently named "Delphos G" posted 7 years ago)

    But before you even try to prove to an athiest/agnostic that God exists and that it is the God of the Bible, you should get them to consider what their life would be like if they hypothetically knew for a fact God existed. Some of them admit God wouldn't be happy with them and that's why they don't want to believe in Him. Some may even be happy if it can be proven to them. That honesty is a good start.

    In my experience, most won't even consider this possibility because of how frightening it can be. If they aren't willing to consider the possibility, then the problem is their hard heart overriding their logic. This is not the case with all of them, however. For those that are willing to consider the possibility, these logical arguments are for them. Sharpen your sword and study not only the Bible, but the world and people around you as well to better understand God's creation, and to stand a better chance of bringing people to God.
  • M - in Reply
    {Part 4}

    There are many other prophecies you can use to convince a logical thinking person that the Bible comes from outside our time domain. Nahum1:10 The ancient historian Diodorus Siculus said "The Assyrian king gave much wine to his soldiers. Deserters told this to the enemy, who attacked that night."

    Nahum3:15 (written around 614BC) Archeologists discovered this spot and reported "...Nineveh suffered a defeat from which it never recovered. Extensive traces of ash, representing the sack of the city by Babylonians, Scythians, and Medes in 612 BC, have been found in many parts of the Acropolis. After 612 BC the city ceased to be important..."

    Ezekiel26:3 (written between 587-586 BC) Alexander the Great destroyed this city, and it was later destroyed again by the Romans, the Crusaders, and the Muslims.

    Ezekiel26:12 (written between 587-586 BC) Alexander the Great builds a land bridge using mainland Tyre to get to the island.

    Numbers 2 describes the camp of Israel, if you draw out how the camp would have looked like, you may be surprised to see that was a prophecy as well.

    I think you see my point.

    There are over 300 prophecies made about Jesus as well, including when He would be announced to His people to the exact day Daniel9:25. Look up "300 Prophecies about Jesus"

    There is a heptadic structures used as the signature of God in the Bible, however the Bible was written by many authors over thousands of years. Some of these heptadic structures can be found in the individual writing of each author, such as the number of times an author uses a unique word is a multiple of 7 times. This is one pattern found throughout (if I'm not mistaken) all the New Testament authors. This would only be possible if the authors spoke ahead of time when deciding what words they would/wouldn't use, which is unlikely. There are many other heptadic structure rules you can find in the Bible. Dr. Ivan Panin wrote 43,000 pages of discoveries on this topic.
  • M - in Reply
    {Part 3} How can we know who is the Highest God?

    We must consider the nature of God. We live in a 3 dimensional world with a time dimension. Did you know time is a physical property that can change based on certain factors? That would mean that God is above the very dimension of time. 2Peter3:8 What's my point? God is the only one who is able to truly extend beyond the reaches of time. Isaiah46:10 God knows the end from the beginning and knows the future perfectly not only because He can perfectly predict the outcome since He designed everything and knows every detail of everything, but because He can look past the dimension of time itself. If He is the Highest, then His own permission levels override all others therefore is able to create a future nobody can change. If you played dice with God, He would be able to perfectly predict the outcome every time, no matter how long you played.

    Prophecy. This is the most overt way that God can authenticate that a message truly came from Him without miraculously appearing before people. Deuteronomy18:22 The Bible is full of prophecy, not only about our current time but also about many historical events that took place. There are a number of them you can use to convince a logically thinking person. Jeremiah25:11-12 states that Babylon will rule over Judah for 70 years before God makes it desolate forever. In 539 BC Babylon was permanently destroyed, as prophesied in Isaiah13:19. Babylon had been destroyed by Assyria but rose to power once again and destroyed it. This time however it was permanently destroyed, just as God said. Shortly after, the Jews who had been captive were released from their captivity as prophesied in Jeremiah 32:36-37.

    One prophecy that may be of interest to believers is the summary of what Jesus did for us all the way back in Genesis, before Jesus was born. Look up " Genesis 5 geneology meaning." Every letter of the bible is there for a reason.
  • M - in Reply
    {Part 2} How do you logically prove the God of the Bible is the Highest?

    First, His existence. We attribute design to something being extremely unlikely but occurred regardless. When you look at a building, how do you know it had a builder? Did the foundation, walls, ceiling, and design patterns occur over time due to erosion, gravity, wind, etc? The second law of thermodynamics states that any spontaneously occurring events in a system will always lead to an escalation of entropy. Information(design,cosmos,order) and entropy(randomness,chaos,disorder) are opposites. If you leave this building alone for a thousand years, do you expect it to get a pool upgrade, a second story balcony, a freshly mowed perfectly rectangular backyard, and perhaps the latest smart home package? Obviously not, it will decay over time until it becomes unrecognizable.

    Darwin's theory of evolution states the opposite. First that abiogenesis(a living thing created from a nonliving thing) took place, which over time broke the second law of thermodynamics and increased in complexity. This is akin in absurdity to the example with the house I made earlier. A single cell is more complex than a city, and every single part of it is there for a reason. If a single DNA base pair is wrong, it can lead to death in the organism. Darwinists expect us to believe the mutations caused to these single cell organisms(which built themselves and arose from the dead) over time led to the creation of organisms as complex as ourselves. Most mutations are either harmful or neutral(no immediate noticeable detrimental effect), whereas beneficial mutations are rare and are biochemical. The DNA(as far as I know) does not even contain the body plan, it's more of a parts list. They have attempted to mutate a fruit fly to evolve in many ways and the results are the same: a seemingly normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly.

    In part 3 we'll see why the God of the Bible is this Designer and none other.
  • M - in Reply
    {Part 1} I asked this question to test how many believers would be able to show and convince someone who's looking for logical proof of the existence of God. I must say it is a little disappointing to see people get increasingly hostile when I replied with typical athiest/agnostic responses to test whether anyone would be able to appropriately respond to them. I came up with this challenge to strengthen your faith and knowledge, and increase your wisdom. Few of you even believe it possible to logically prove to someone that God exists. I believe these verses apply here: Proverbs 9:8, Proverbs 9:9, Proverbs 17:10.

    If your faith is rooted in mere feelings, what makes your faith more real than that of anyone else's "religion"? I struggled with this for some time as I had never as far as I know encountered an obvious miracle such as having an encounter with God regardless of how I prayed for it. What was I left with? Inside I knew I was right, but I also wondered whether my "knowing" was something supernatural or does Proverbs 14:16 apply. Am I a confident fool or spiritually guided? Maybe both? Seeing how people know so little about the spirit, I didn't believe it to be reasonable to base the most important decision of my existence, which God is the Highest, on feelings.

    Basically, is it possible to logically prove the existence of God? What about evolution, doesn't that hamper the proof of God? Is there a way to disprove evolution? Is there anyone so well learned that can show me this proof? Many people who mean well say "you can't prove the existence of God, but..." however that's absolutely false. God did not leave us without evidence to prove His own existence.

    In part 2 I will show some of this evidence.
  • Rick - in Reply
    M With all due respect the context of what you have given scripturally applies to a fool that does not believe

    Gods word all the people that have replied from what I've read do believe and its not a case of challenging

    there belief or faith, its a case of what is being stated defies the scripture because even Jesus Christ said to

    Peter flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, therefore anything in the realm of human reasoning or

    if you will logic or anything of the five senses except believing what Romans 10:9+10 and acting on that

    is all that matters.
  • Adam - in Reply
    Hello M, it sounds like you're enjoying making a game out of your question about God, but why not just share what you consider the answer before you lose your audience and this discussion gets buried?
  • Geri nichols - in Reply
    Dear M.

    I thought that you were really looking for information on how to respond to someone you were trying to talk wit about the reality of God and how we can know that the God of the bible is the only true God. Many of us have given varied suggestions. But none seem to satisfy you as it seems that you are simply "testing" use to see if we come up with the answer that you think is the "correct" one. I may be wrong on this, so forgive me if I am. I will bow out of this conversation since I believe much has already been shared. My last thought is that we really don't know what the Spirit will lead us to share when we do meet this situation wit an unbeliever. It probably would depend if the person is truly seeking to find God or just wanting to be oppositional. God knows where they are coming from and will lead us.
  • Conversations in the spirit of Disciples of Christ - in Reply
    Keep coming back. We do not Have to interact with those who think they are "professors."

    You can lead with any subject on YOUR mind. You don't have to be involved in Contention.

    If you desire, there are past history pages bottom of the rooms numbered 1-400. You can still comment on old comments from months ago.

    We're not fish _ we can just swim away and not bite. :D
  • GiGi - in Reply
    No, problem. I just felt that what had already been said by myself and others was sufficient for the conversation.
  • Rick - in Reply
    Geri Perhaps its not a test he just doesn't know.
  • Gigi/Geri - in Reply

    Perhaps. I am just feeling that my part in the conversation to "M" is done. Blessings
  • Rick - in Reply
    Gigi/Geri Good point do what the beatles did let it be, it will manifest itself.
  • Rick - in Reply
    M What your stating cannot be done for many people and the why? 2 Corinthians 4:4 is proof it is a

    spiritual battle which is why people have seen the miraculous and still didn't believe. Even Jesus Christ

    himself dealt with absolute unbelief no matter what so I'll move on because with all do respect I don't

    have itching ears. The clay cannot explain the potter!
  • GiGi - in Reply
    I agree M, we are to use all of ourselves, as God has created us with all our body, mind, soul, strength, and heart by way of the newly re-birthed spirit in us to interact with God. Our relationship with God is not just spiritual; it involves all of our being because our redemption is not merely spiritual; all of our being has been redeemed. That is why we are instructed to "love the Lord our God with all of our mind, heart, soul, strength". So, it is good to subject our soul, mind, body, heart, strength and spirit to the Spirit of God within us to do and say as the Lord would have us do and say, to think with the mindset and wisdom of Christ, to do good works with the compassion, love, mercy, and grace of Jesus, to present our bodies to God as a living sacrifice. So, employing reason and logic along with the input of the Holy Spirit is what we should do, as Paul speaks to in 1 Corinthians 13:13-19.

    We are not yet perfected in all of our being yet. That will come in resurrection. But we are not like we were prior to salvation. We now have grace that is powerful to cause us to use all of our being for God and His work in and through us.

    I pray that the Spirit will give you just the right words to say to those you want to speak with concerning these things. many times when speaking to an atheist or someone wo wants proof, the conversation gets a bit "stuck", that is when I use that opportunity to say "We may not agree on this, but I can tell you that I know God in Jesus Christ, who sacrificed Himself for me to redeem me from sin, death, hell, and the evil devil. My life is forever changed and I look forward to spending eternity with Jesus rather than eternity with the devil and all of the evil, unbelieving people throughout world history." That way, your testimony is your testimony, and they really cannot argue against yourown experience of salvation.
  • M - in Reply
    @GiGi , I agree with most of what you said, but threatening athiests/agnostics with eternal hell if they don't believe is not the right way to go about convincing someone who doesn't believe. It will make them see you as lacking empathy and wanting them to suffer eternally just because they aren't convinced by what they see as subjective experiences fueled by the placebo effect.

    Once someone is able to see what life/eternal life can be like if they know for a fact God exists, they will then begin to see why He asks certain things of His people, primarily abstaining from sin. Judging people makes them close their heart to you.
  • S Spencer - in Reply
    Hi M.

    Good Question

    I'm coming along late, Maybe someone shared this, If so I agree. .

    l believe the fact that there is nothing logic about God, and nothing logic about his creation expresses Divinity.

    Everything exists today is uniquely designed!!

    Romans 1:20.FOR THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;


    Even if we didn't have the written word

    By his creation alone expresses God!

    It's past my bed time.

    God bless.
  • M - in Reply
    @Spencer, that's part of the puzzle but not the complete picture. People don't seem to understand the logical implications of that verse, and I'm not sure I 100% do either, but if I understand correctly it means you can prove God's existence through His creation and understand the nature of God by studying the world around you, i.e. science.

    The second law of thermodynamics is perhaps the finest example of this, it basically states things get less complex over time as they break down, not more complex. If you disassembled a car, put all the parts in a huge washing machine, and let it run for a few billion years, would you get a fully assembled and functional Tesla through the random spinning of the machine? No, the parts would destroy each other through friction assuming they didn't decay first. People however are extremely complex and there's 0 chance our DNA is an act of randomness mixed with extreme luck.

    But all this doesn't prove the God of the Bible is the One. That is what I am challenging people to prove.
  • Free - in Reply
    Dear "M". It is very clear and see you are a believer. And the arguments are good. Do you want to use the arguments to get people to repent? Or do you just want to discuss with them? Here is the difference we can talk about forever. But do not arrive at the essence of what a meaning lies in.

    I do not think the intelligence is taken from a monkey. Let's turn it around instead. See us as the intelligence that a monkey has acquired. Then we can also understand how people learn very differently from each other. Some will see more complex things and others will have single syllables and say so.

    Like when you meet a person who will control your affairs. We will remove them from us as soon as possible. Because the explanation is that no one should touch what is mine. So it is with the Lord alsow! He wants us to be Faithful to Him, He wants us not to give way, to the higher or too the left side.

    For He will stand in all things with us from the scriptures. He lives in the heart. This is where we come to the imperfect with man and here does not help how high education ppl have. Here, intelligence does not help much. For here is God the Lord. And He takes away that which is nothing. He raises up again that which is nothing. It is the flesh that stands against the Spirit that is, in the flesh there is nothing to draw anything Divine from. Just destruction. That is why Paul says that we must and should live in the Spirit.

    And here is the possibility, when we stand bewildered, the Lord comes in and delivers us, what is that for an intelligence? Should not it be a proof of a higher body God the Father Himself who has created all things under His counsel. For He brings with him life forms that also have a word in the team. I personally look forward to being found in Him who has all power in heaven and on earth, Jesus Christ. May I just hold on to what I have been given in my belive and not let the "flesh" take over in its own lust.

    Wish you all a Happy New Year 2022
  • M - in Reply
    Hello Free, my primary motivation for this post was to see if people could demonstrate proof of God to a nonbeliever who seeks proof, and if not then to show one way it may be done. As believers our greatest task once we secure our own salvation is to bring others to God so they can secure theirs. There are people I have met who perhaps wanted to believe in God but didn't see why they should believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to any other god. I wish I knew at the time what to say to them, perhaps I could've helped them understand.

    We must understand that people who never experienced miracles or seen anything supernatural happen have no reason to believe us. We can give them a reason to if we can demonstrate it is a logical conclusion based on a set of facts. Afterwards, once they see it's the only reasonable conclusion, they will start to take the Bible seriously and eventually develop their faith and be born again.
  • Carol - in Reply
    People could demonstrate proof of God...

    All Christians need to heed the bible when it comes to proving to an unbeliever of GOD/Jesus Christ existence in this universal.

    Let this be your warning.. (It is not your problem, Jesus didn't do it so why should you step into those shoes) Stop trying to fill a void that is not possible to fill. Everyone is not GOD's children.

    Jesus requires Faith to Do/Move/Be/Humble/Surrender,etc.

    Here are bible verses to back that up.

    Matthew 4: 2-4

    And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

    3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

    4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (Satan is asking for proof)

    Matthew 5:16

    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 9:27-29

    crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

    28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

    29Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

    Matthew 11:3-6

    And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

    4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

    5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

    6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

    So you see.. Jesus only needs you to do the job, that he asked all of us to do.

    1. Follow the 10 Commandments

    2. Believe in Jesus Christ

    2. Have Faith

    3. Do the work

    Your Job to an unbeliever is only to tell them about Christ and be prepared to explain in detail why you believe.

    All else is vanity.
  • Glenn - in Reply
    Good day ,. Fellow truth seeker ? ? ? Or are you ? Ya see fren , our relationship with God dose not depend on him , it depends on us ,. So I must be truthful here , an say , it's up to you,.. you must pray , study , an of course,.. most of all ,.. have faith an believe,.. I do wish that you grab a paddle, jump in an start rowing,.. being of sound mind an hart to take each day to read for 35 -45 minutes,.. an then let that run threw your mind , an don't ask any flesh man for PROOF,.. You can actually go right to the very man you are looking for,.. but I can tell you, he's a hart knower an you cannot con God ,..

  • M - in Reply
    Hello. Have I said something that makes it seem I haven't pursued knowledge of God or that I don't have a sound mind? As believers people will ask us for proof. God expects us to be prepared with an answer to defend our faith. 1 Peter 3:15 "...and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a REASON of the hope..."

    Reason(noun): 1. A statement or fact that explains why something is the way it is, why someone does, thinks, or says something, or why someone behaves a certain way

    2. the power of the mind to think and understand in a logical way
  • Mishael - in Reply
    M. Generally if you make a statement and 20 people write comments on it, they're not feeling unity in the Spirit.

    Paul was sent to the Gentiles, and he was frequently beaten, stoned, run out of town, had to hide, leave town in the middle of the night.

    It's amazing to look at a map of his travels.

    Ask the Holy Spirit to anoint you and your ministry. When He's in on it, it flows.

    Someone told me a long, long time ago; God doesn't like Lone Rangers, and bloom where you're planted. I tell myself the stings are a good thing and it usually is.

    Prayers for this New Year Amen. Be at peace.
  • S Spencer - in Reply
    Hi again M.

    Th way we know God is " The God of the Bible "

    Is perhaps prophecy surrounding Israel.

    Isaiah 46:9-13. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

    I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Back to bed I go.

    God bless.
  • M - in Reply
    Excellent. You're on the right track and have got closer than anyone else. What if the athiest/agnostic asks for proof of prophecy that came true? What examples can you provide him that can be backed up by historical facts?
  • Rick - in Reply
    M You are saying that which is imperfect man can figure perfection the True God and that by your logic is impossible.
  • M - in Reply
    A man cannot know everything about God. But you don't need to know everything to prove He exists.
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    There are multiple ways to prove God exists. Our own human conscience proves that God exists. It is our human nature to know what is right and what is wrong. Even if we don't know God, or don't believe God, it is God in our conscience within each of us to reason right from wrong. How would we know right from wrong if not?

    Here is Paul explaining this in scripture:

    Romans 2:14-15

    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

    God Bless.
  • M - in Reply
    What if an athiest replied to you that morality is something that was developed in people over time during evolution because groups who stuck and worked together without harming the integrity of the group by killing, stealing, etc. had the highest chance of survival, and therefore they taught their kids this/passed it on in their genes and we are the descendants of those people?
  • Methuselah - in Reply
    ...this just in: fish/monkey atheists passed morals genetically while their fins turned into paws
  • Ronald Whittemore - in Reply

    Morals would not exist without God. There is not an action that will create a reaction of moral because the benefit is loss and not gain.

  • M - in Reply
    @Ronald see my response to Bro dan.

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