Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • William on Colossians 2
    Verses 14 to 17 show that Moses' law, written by handwriting about holy days, sabbaths (not THE SABBATH) have been nailed to the Cross. They were only a 'shadow.' God's Law, written with the finger of God, remains to be obeyed forever. Jesus said He did not come to destroy God's law. Distinguishing between the 2 types of law is necessary to understand the Gospel. We are called to obey God not to be saved but because we love God and want to please Him. Be wary of minister wolves that claim the law is not valid anymore. John 14:15: 'If you love me, keep my commandments.' See Rev 22:14 showing that those who keep His commandments have right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates of New Jerusalem. Study His word yourself and do not be deceived. We all will face our Creator individually. It will be no excuse that our church misled us.
  • Rick - in Reply on Colossians 2
    Hi William If there teaching the law doesn't count period that's not realty because when we walk by the spirit

    we complete the law because we walk on the Highest law the law of Love. Therefore completing Math:22:37-40.

    I'll guarantee you that no christian can walk by all the over 400 laws in the old testament the idea is NOT TO

    INTENTIONALLY BREAK GODS COMMANDMENTS which if you endeavor to walk by the spirit to love God first you

    won't be purposely breaking His Commandments.
  • GiGi again - in Reply on Colossians 2
    Rick, I agree. No one can does 400 laws perfectly. We walk by the Spirit and obey in love in each circumstance we find ourselves in day by day. The Spirit shows us ow to fulfill the spirit of the law, which is a righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees, in this sense. And ultimately, as we have been given the righteousness of Christ our "garment" our/His righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees to the ultimately perfect degree, in this sense.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on Colossians 2
    Amen!!

    Well said Brother Rick.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - in Reply on Colossians 2
    Hi William, I understand what you are getting at. Jesus and Paul always said that the Law is good and holy. We should think of it that way, too. Like David, believers should love the commandments of God. To us they are a guide and a check, they are helpful to us in these ways. We no longer will receive the curse of breaking the Law, because of Christ's we redemptive work for us. As Christians we should not have animus against the Law; it shows us how righteous God is. Instead we should have animus against sin and all evil, hating it enough to want to be rid of it in us every time we are convinced of it in us by the Spirit. This animus should press us to confess and repent.

    We here all know that we cannot have victory over sin without God's power and righteousness given to us at conversion.

    So, we are not obeying the commands of God to earn our salvation. We already have it. We obey His commands because we are now righteous in Christ.

    i see no conflict with a believer abiding by the 10 commandments. Like you said, Jesus said we are to obey His commandments. I do have a problem with a believer living a lifestyle of disobedience of these commandments, because it shows that they do not love God or desire to imitate Christ.
  • Bro dan - in Reply on Colossians 2
    Hi Brother William,

    Amen. You are speaking truth. Many so called christians today do not want to be submissive and obedient to God. They twist/divide/manipulate/ignore bible scripture in such a way, that they fool themselves, and even worse, bring down many others. They are convinced that they can live their worldly sinful lives and still achieve salvation.

    You rightly listed one of the most powerful little verses spoken by Jesus in the entire bible: John 14:15 If we love Jesus we will keep his commandments.

    Many people are so blinded, they feel justified in outright ignoring this scripture! Well I believe that Jesus will also be justified in ignoring them! And he tell us that he will - in this easy to understand scripture here:

    Matthew 7:22-23

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    If we continue to follow Jesus, love him, and keep his commandments we will always have a lighted path, and he will know us!

    God Bless.
  • William - in Reply
    Hello Chris

    The scriptures that you quoted are certainly true. We are saved by faith not by obeying the law. He shed His blood for us. However, disregard of the law of God was what brought down Lucifer and Adam and Eve. There was no sin till then.We, in our flesh, also do not obey nor can obey the law of God. The 10 Commandments have not been abolished. Jesus said in Matthew 5 vs 18: 'till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.'

    What does being saved mean? To verbally accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour without complete commitment is worthless.What does He say about being lukewarm? We can lose our salvation as evidenced by scriptures such as Matthew24:13 'but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved', Rev 3:11 'hold fast..so that no one may seize your crown', also eg. Mark 13:13, Hebrews 6:4-65, Heb 3:6

    "SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW" 1John 3:4. If we sin, we have forgiveness by repenting to our advocate with the Father. 1 John 2:1. With His Spirit within us, we grow in our characters to become more like Jesus, who obeyed His Father.

    He did not sin and became our substitute. We are saved from our sins not to keep on sinning. Deception in the churches on this point abounds. We are warned not to be deceived-eg. Matt24;4, 2 Thess 2-3, 1 Cor 6:9-10

    To see what the faithful church will look like at the return of Jesus, examine Rev 14vs12- THEY KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF JESUS. In contrast to this, 'the love of many shall wax cold.' Matt 24:12

    Note further Rev 22vs 14:

    ' BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.'

    Jesus does not separate Himself from His law. He said of Himself 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.'

    The Bible also tells us in Psalm 119vs 142 'Thy Law is Truth.'

    1 John 2:4 says we are liars if we say we love Him and do not keep His commandments.
  • GiGi - in Reply
    Dear William, Chris, and Rick,

    It is interesting to read these responses because even though you seem to disagree, I think you all do agree. In Crist we are finally free to live as God would call us to live. Therefore, by the power of God's grace given through the Spirit in us, we can obey God in ways higher than even the good and holy Law (10 commandments). Therefore, we can follow what is said in Titus 2:11-14.

    "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."

    This verse tells us that grace trains us to do what is truly godly in God's eyes. So, we will not murder or hate, but love; we will not be sexually immoral or lust, but faithfully fulfill the needs of our spouse; we will not make graven images as idols nor worship self, but we will be devoted to God above all else; we will not lie and or be deceptive, but we will be honest and true to what we profess. So, by the Spirit we will obey the 10 commandments as a way of life, and then some, because we have been made a new creature in Christ, not longer a slave to sinful desires, but are free to be obedient to God's will. We will sin against God's will at times. Most ways that we sin will be found in the spirit and not just the letter of the 10 commands of God. But, praise God, we will not be captured again by sin as before we were saved! We can confess and be forgiven. We have a power in us that is not of us that makes us stronger than the evil desires we are tempted with. We will increasingly have victory over sin. As we are changed bit by bit to be more and more like Jesus. The Law does not save us, only Jesus does.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother William:

    Disregard of the law WAS NOT what brought Adam and EVE down. There was no law, at that time.

    What brought Adam and Eve down was; UNBELIEF.

    They didn't believe what God said; EAT and YE SHALL DIE, the same problem brings man down today, they believe in God, but don't believe what God says.

    Christ blood PAID for EVERY SIN, except one; UNBELIEF.

    Behold the LAMB of GOD who is come to TAKE AWAY the SIN (singular) of the world; UNBELIEF.

    The wages of sin (unbelief) is death; the wages of belief is LIFE.

    God Bless You.
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Bro Earl,

    You are incorrect to say there was no law. God's word is the law. God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil. He commanded them just like he commands to us to keep his laws in the ten Commandments; Do not kill, do not murder etc. these commands are his laws. There is no difference.

    Genesis 2:16

    "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:"

    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Hopefully, this confirms that Adam and Eve broke God's command/law.

    God Bless.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother Dan, before you can disobey you have to be given the command and with ever command comes a warning of the punishment that goes with that command.

    Before you act on the command you either believe or do not believe.

    If you believe and then obey, then there is no negative outcome, and no punishment.

    If you don't believe and disobey, then there is a negative outcome, and punishment.

    Adam and Eve had no KNOWLEDGE of what death was, so their UNBELIEF came before disobedience.

    When young children are commanded by their parents not to touch the stove or it will burn them, they have no KNOWLEDGE of what being burned is. In UNBELIEF they touch the stove. Now they have KNOWLEDGE.

    It was necessary and preordained that man would eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE, you have to have KNOWLEDGE of hot and cold, etc., etc., everything has an opposite, so man had to have KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, they are the fruit of the same tree.

    The CHURCH in the wilderness was told to search out the promise land and see for themselves that it was a land flowing with milk and honey. And God said I WILL GO BEFORE YOU and drive out the inhabitants of the land.

    Upon returning all 12 said yes it was like God said, but 10 told the people there are giants in the land and they will destroy us.

    But 2 told the people, yes there are giants in the land; BUT GOD SAID, he would drive them out.

    The people BELIEVED man and NOT GOD. UNBELIEF CAUSES DISOBEDIEBCE.

    Hebrews 3:19 We see they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

    Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of UNBELIEF.

    God Bless You.
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Amen Bro Earl,

    Great response, and good examples of unbelief!

    I agree, that unbelief is the main ingredient that causes us to sin!

    Satan does cause confusion, leading to disbelief.

    God Bless
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Hi Bro Earl,

    I believe you have make some good and valid points regarding disbelief.

    We have many today that also have disbelief. Many believe that God will not send sinners to hell. Many hear the Word but really don't believe it. This conversation is an example of this mindset. God gives us commands but we do not comply or we disregard and we find a multitude of reasons why we don't have to observe God Commands. Then when we receive the negative outcomes promised, we can't believe it!

    God Bless
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother Dan:

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially those that believe.

    1 Timothy 4:11 These things command and teach.

    Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach man so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    God Bless You.
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Amen Bro Earl.

    Those 3 verses are great, but - only if we believe them.

    I believe all 3 verses, and I agree God's Commandments instruct and teach. For those that don't believe, and instruct others to ignore them - they will suffer the consequences per Matthew 5:19

    God Bless
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Brother Earl,

    Great point! That verse can be confusing. I believe we could interpret this verse in two ways; "all men" or "those that believe." You seem to be interpreting it "as all men". It can't see it being both, so it is one or the other. I attribute this confusion being translation, or transmission of the message from Paul to Timothy.

    I interpret it as "those that believe". Why? Because we have tons of scripture that reinforces "only those that believe" will be saved.

    So yes, we can read this scripture and still believe in Hell.

    Love to you Brother.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother Dan:

    The verse SAID, command and teach that God is the Saviour of all men, specially those that believe.

    You cannot believe that verse and believe in hell also.

    God Bless You.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother Dan:

    Do you believe God will send sinners to hell:

    Is GRACE not what abounds to all men, man says you have to believe, Grace says at each man's appointed time; GRACE will CAUSE you to believe. You don't Chose me, I CHOSE YOU.

    Philippians 1:29 For it is GIVEN TO YOU on the behalf of Christ, TO BELIEVE ON HIM....

    Brother Dan, you were GRACED, being able to BELIEVE, you are chosen to be a vessel of honour, but God chooses to make some men to be vessels of dishonour.

    Does GRACE not also apply to them, and when God GRACES them with BELIEF they will RESPOND.

    Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the ELECTION OF GRACE.

    Romans 11:6 An if by grace, then it is no more of works, otherwise it is no more grace.....

    Romans 11:31 Even so have these also NOT NOW BELIEVED, that through YOUR MERCY they may obtain MERCY.

    Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come upon mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

    Ephesians 2:7 That in THE AGES TO COME he might show the exceeding riches OF HIS GRACE in his kindness toward us through Jesus Christ.

    God Bless You.
  • Adam - in Reply
    Most Bible readers don't believe this anti-freewill and heaven-only interpretation. It goes against nearly everything Jesus preached. We should all pray that we may know the truth. God bless.
  • GiGi again - in Reply
    Thank you Adam, I agree. Adam and Eve had free will and they choose sin over obedience. God sought them out in the garden and dealt mercifully with them. They responded to His grace. Cain had free will in choosing to kill Abel. God sought him out and told him of his sin. Cain did not respond rightly to God's mercy. He moved away from God, physically (to Nod) and spiritually (to rebellion). He used his free will. We have the same free agency. We can resist God's offer of salvation and reject the grace He offers when He reaches out to us in the Word or someone's witness. The Holy Spirit is willing to save all, but does not force anyone to be saved. The Word states that those who believe the gospel will be saved.

    This universalist doctrine has been around for many centuries and was refuted time and time again, being rejected as false doctrine. It is good to remind those who promote it that it is contrary to Scripture and what most Christians believe. Cults usually form around such teachings that centralize one teaching while ignoring the full counsel of Scripture. I think the same is done in this matter by those who hold to universalist doctrine.
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Bro Earl,

    Yes, I do believe in Hell, and I do believe that God will send sinners that don't repent from sin to Hell. Jesus speaks of hell in this verse in a very plain manner - easy to understand:

    Matthew 10:28

    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Do you not believe this verse? Do you just ignore Jesus?

    Earl, there is no salvation unless we repent. There is no repentance without a change to our former lifestyle. There is no eternal life without turning from sin to Jesus for salvation.

    Many people are sorry for their sins, yet not enough to change their life. True repentance will be sincere, and will include genuine sorrow, and should compel an earnest desire to change, and discontinue former sins.

    A Christian that accepts and follows Jesus will never in this life, be sin free. They should however," struggle and toil" to be sin less. This is our cross to bear! Jesus tells us to pick up "our cross" and follow him! Matthew 16:24-25

    Today, the largest crowd that yells the loudest about faith/grace and nothing else, are looking for the easy way out. Yes Jesus died for our sins, but not so that we can continue in our sinful ways. We need to pick up our crosses too, and follow Jesus! That takes action on our part!

    There are "no free tickets to heaven".

    God Bless
  • GiGi - in Reply
    Yes, Bro Dan, I believe like you. Hell is for the unbelieving, unrepentant, self-appointed masters of themselves.

    We are called to repent, and I believe, like you that it goes beyond being sorry tat sin would send one to hell. It is a real about face towards God by His grace. He gives repentance, and we use our minds and hearts to want this change. We assent to it, and God does it for us. We will begin to despise our sinfulness, and desire to obey God. Isn't this what God has called mankind to do throughout all of the Bible since the beginning? To turn to Him to be saved? By grace our will is changed from being self-willed to being Spirit willed. There is so much more that can be said about the wonderful work of God on behalf of mankind. I don't think we can ever plumb the depths of this great gift.

    I know that faith is necessary for salvation to be of effect in a person, but it seems that too many people do not get around to the repentance part of faith. I have heard people give "testimonies" where they recount their past as if it was their "glory days", almost boastful of the wicked way they lived. I, for one, do not wish to talk much about the ways I was not following what God wanted me to do, as if they are a "badge" of some kind. I hate that I did the things that are brought to mind by the" accuser or the brethren." And that is good that I do, because I am seeing my sins as God does, evil, and I hate it like He does. I don't say this to be self-righteous. I say it because I think that in this time many Christians have lost this aspect of repentance or never known it at all. So many have been taught such a minimalistic gospel message. Not to say that the gospel is complicated, because it is simple in many ways. But in our church fellowships today, too many people are afraid to offend someone about sinfulness, that people respond to a watered down "altar call" without much follow-up, teaching, or expectation that they are to "go and sin no more".
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Amen GiGi!

    Wonderful summation on how we as Christ Followers should be walking with Christ.

    God Bless You.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother Dan:

    Matthew 10:28 And fear them not which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Brother Dan the word translated hell in this verse is the word Gehenna.

    The Old Testament refers to this as Hinnon, a valley outside of Jerusalem's walls, at the time Christ was on earth this valley was used as the cities dump.

    The garbage and trash and the dead bodies of criminals were thrown here.

    They had fire burning in that dump and worms were there eating the flesh of dead bodies. Where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

    Christ was using Gehenna fire to show how he uses judgement to destroy the trash and unwanted things in our lives.

    That fire is now quenched and those worms are gone, because that dump site is now a city park.

    If the translators had left the word Gehenna in the verse, as they left it in tact in the Old Testament, instead of changing it to the word hell. There would not be so much deception.

    Brother Dan, the word Gehenna is used 11 time in the bible and translated as hell.

    James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is it among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and is set on fire OF GEHENNA (translated hell).

    Brother Dan, the WORKS in your body are not you WORKS, their God's works, you gave you life, for Christ's LIFE, now it's no longer you, but CHRIST IN YOU, doing the WORKS.

    Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

    Jesus is the root, we are the branches, without me (in you) you can do nothing. I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.

    Brother Dan the old you (sinful flesh) no longer exist, it died on the cross.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ......
  • Free - in Reply
    Dear brother, U said it soo thru. Its evan soo that Golgata today is inside the city. Not outside as it was before when Jesus hang on the cross. Many more places is twisted around in Jerusalem. It is the devil who have made confusion for christian ppl. We need too look up in the Spirit sometimes during the day. Not always see white and black letters. What did Jesus said example in

    Luke 22:67

    Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

    Soo the clue here is that the Holy Spirit tell us today. And if we not see or hear Him in the heart now! How can some then belive that we shall see Him after? He is with us today, and stay with us the rest of our life. Whom will go from Him? And is not willing to live in the love that God gives, i said poor poor people

    1 Thessalonians

    Chapter 3

    Stay blessed in His holy name Jesus Christ.
  • Adam - in Reply
    I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar, but I don't think one is required to read the Bible and understand it. Children can even read it and understand it to believe and have faith.

    Earl, I don't know where you heard this translation thing about 'hell' from, but I believe it's false. Hell means hell. It's already translated and done so accurately. Are we expected to believe that tens of thousands of scholars who have prayerfully and meticulously translated the Bible over hundreds of years and all come to the same conclusion of hell meaning hell are all somehow wrong and only you are right?

    I believe you've been deceived on the meaning. I believe this attempt to make hell into a different place has a hidden motive. I don't even have to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar to know what hell means because the Bible already described it so many times. It is an absolutely horrible place of suffering. No man can tell me otherwise, because I believe God over man. Jesus warned people over and over about it and what exactly can be done to avoid it. I have shared these verses before with you. They refute the anti-hell narrative. God is such a good God He won't let evil spoil heaven. Satan was cast out of heaven. Satan, demons, and his followers aren't invited in. Just like all the parables say most really will go to hell and few will go to heaven. Some should be a little afraid of this if they aren't genuinely following Jesus. God bless.
  • GiGi again - in Reply
    Thanks Adam, This is such a good statement on this subject. There are millions and millions of believers across the centuries who accept what Scriptures say about the tormenting judgment of hell for unbelievers. therefore the urgency for people to repent an believe the gospel. We who believe have tasted the goodness of God trough His mercy, grace, and love poured out on us by the Holy Spirit from the start of our rebirth. We now view our sinfulness differently, seeing what it should "earn" us--hell-torment and eternal separation from the one and only wonderful God who loves us. We would not know goodness if it was not for God, nor love, nor kindness, nor any truly good that we receive. Unbelievers are deceived to think that they can possess such things apart from God, not acknowledging Him in the blessings they enjoy despite being is enemy. We who believe have lain aside our self-will and self-agrandizement (sp) to pursue God and His will and glory. We are now being who God made us to be-His creature turned to Him with our hands out to receive all things needed for life and salvation with the praise of our lips rising to Him in gratitude.
  • Raymond Catinella - in Reply
    Yes I believe that we need to pick up our cross as Jesus our savior did and we can not continue to seen because our lord we will keep and forgive us , we need to change our life each day to being able to gain salvation.
  • David - in Reply
    Earl They could not have knowledge of death or anything dealing with confusion fear or destruction because of

    that source the adversary. Don't think the adversary didn't know what God told them Also what's the difference

    they knew about death or not

    is if you disobey me your Father you deal with the consequences of your unbelief. Also who made Eve

    question Gods Word was it not the great liar. By the way they died in the worst way they no longer had their

    spiritual connection with God and Adam lost all authority Given him by God. That's why in Genesis 3:10 Adam

    said I was afraid, that's a bad position to be in with your father yet look who God blamed. Neither Adam nor

    Eve.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother David:

    Eve wasn't spiritually perfect.

    Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly .....

    Anyone made subject to vanity is not spiritually perfect, you and I were made subject to vanity, that's why we are deceived and sin.

    That's why Eve sinned.

    That's why God didn't put the blame on ADAM, he made Eve that way, subject to being deceived, we today are subject to being deceived, because we are born of woman. Christ, through his death and resurrection, provided a way to become spiritually perfect.

    Genesis 5:2 MALE and FEMALE created he them, and bless them, and called THEIR NAME ADAM, the DAY THEY WERE CREATED.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in ADAM all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man ADAM was made a living soul; the last ADAM a quickening Spirit.

    1 Timothy 1:14 And ADAM was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    May God Bless You.
  • David - in Reply
    Earl You got more twist than Chubby checkers in his prime, Eve was not subject to vanity until she disobeyed and

    neither was Adam. God blamed serpent [used for His slyness in function] or satan who tricked Adam and Eve to

    becoming useless as he is. Now Gods grace again Gen.3:16 -20 explains the consequences of their unbelief and

    what he had to do so they wouldn't blow it worse, and his plans for our Saviour. The True God Always secures

    protects and defends even when we blow it. That's the grace and mercy. When you take Gods Word and make

    black white and white black and it becomes grey that's the enemy's territory or did God Really Say That!

    We want to strive to be absolute in mind on It Is Written because when you question everything you can't

    really believe or focus on anything, Eve questioned the only thing she was told NOT TO DO disobeyed the only

    thing that God knew was the tipping point! Thank God through Christ when we blow it the tipping point has been

    rounded off so to speak.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Brother David:

    Did Satan deceive Christ when he tempted Christ; NO, because he had spiritual KNOWLEDGE.

    Eve was deceived because she had no spiritual KNOWLEDGE, if she would have had that KNOWLEDGE she would have been like Christ and would not have been deceived.

    Romans 8:20 It's God's word that says, MAN WAS MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY ......

    1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceive, but the WOMAN being deceived was in the transgression.

    1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding the WOMAN shall be saved in CHILDBEARING ...

    Revelation 12:1 And I saw a great wonder in heaven, A WOMAN......

    Revelation 12:2 And she being with child (the new man created IN CHRIST) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    We are the WOMAN, whether we be male or female, and we are going to deliver a new creation in the likeness of Christ, the Father of that new creation.

    Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are CREATED, and thou RENEWEST the face of the earth.

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a NEW heaven and A NEW earth: for the first (old) were passed away ......

    God Bless You.
  • David - in Reply
    Earl Wow.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    AMEN Brother Dan, I will agree EVERY WORD ever spoken by Christ is LAW, and they are all commands to be kept and followed.

    This comes back to the sin of UNBELIEF. God said love you enemies. But why would Christians think these words should be obeyed, when they are taught from the pulpit, God hates his enemies and condemns them to ETERNAL TORTURE.

    How many Christians LOVE their ENEMIES. Not many.

    How many Christians pray for their enemies. Not many.

    After shootings in school and our pastors pray for the victims. How many pastors pray for the gunman. NOT MANY.

    Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest, for he (GOD) IS KIND to the UNTHANKFUL and the EVIL.

    God Bless You
  • Bro dan - in Reply
    Bro Earl,

    I agree we must listen and believe God. He promises that he will Judge and punish the wicked/sinners.

    Proverbs 11:21"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.

    God tells us to love our enemies, and forgive those against us. We are to be like children, and lambs, just as Christ was our example. Matthew 18: 21-22

    "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Meaning indefinitely!

    Remember Brother, this life is very short, the next one is for eternity. We can pick up our cross each day and bear it, for this short time period, because we can see our everlasting reward!

    God Bless
  • GiGi again - in Reply
    WOW, Earl , Just WOW

    You assume many things about what pastors are preaching from every pulpit across the world. I have never heard a pastor preach the way you have stated and I have had many pastors in my life. I have always been taught to love our enemies, and that God loves everyone, even the unbelieving. Just because God loves everyone doesn't mean that He will not be just. He is all love, all justice, all good, all pure, all of what makes Him God. He does not diminish or set aside one attribute of His essence to magnify another. He loves those who oppose Him, but without repentance and belief, these people will receive God's perfect justice, which He said is punishment in hell. He still loves everyone wo will be in hell, but He set the terms of His judgments in His Word and He will execute perfect justice and perfect love all the time.

    I know you have said that Jesus' sacrifice paid for all the sins of all mankind. I believe that, too. I believe that all mens' sins are forgiven in Christ, but I also believe that Scripture says that only those who believe that He has saved them will indeed receive eternal life with God. Salvation is not so much a point of being forgiven as it is believing the gospel of Christ is for "me" and so I receive it by faith.

    God allows us to retain the free agency to refuse to believe in Him and in His gospel. And in doing so, He proves that He is just to judge those who believe to eternal life and those wo do not to hell.

    I know you disagree. And I really do not wish to rehash this topic once again. People reading can go back and find the thread about this in the past month to read what has been written, because, to be honest Earl, it is those reading who are not yet convinced about tis we are really writing too whether we admit it on our post or not.

    God bless you today. I am always thankful to have something to talk with you about and others here. It keeps us sharp!
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply
    Sister GiGi:

    1 Timothy 1:10 For therefore we both labour and SUFFER REPROACH, because we believe in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially those that believe.

    Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect.

    Romans 11:31 Even so have these also not believe, that through YOUR mercy they may have mercy.

    God bless you.
  • GiGi again - in Reply
    Yes, bro Dan, Adam and Eve had a commandment from God not to eat of this certain tree. They disobeyed God's command. That was their sin according to the Law of His command. They also sinned by doubting that what God said about dying was true. They did not have a command on this, but sinned apart from the Law (His command). So, they sinned according to the "Law" and apart from the "Law". Jesus obeyed according to the Law and apart from the Law in all things. Therefore, He was able to cover the sins of both ways that Adam and Eve sinned, and all men, as well.
  • Earl - in Reply
    Brother Earl,

    You said it was unbelief that caused the fall of Adam and Eve, but it doesn't say that in the Bible. The Bible already tells us exactly what they did wrong, so there is no mystery and no guessing. The answer is in this verse...

    Genesis 3:17

    "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

    God's response is in the format of: "Because" [you did this] ... [this is the consequence]

    God gave Adam and Eve a command, they disobeyed that command, and they received the consequences. It was not unbelief. You said they didn't believe God's command, but it doesn't say that in the Bible. Maybe that was just an assumption on your part? I believe that they believed God's command, and they chose to disobey anyway.

    Have you ever had a child disobey you? Is their motive 100% of the time for disobeying a child's unbelief?

    God bless...
  • Chris - in Reply
    Thanks William. I think the problem arises that whenever 'the Law' is mentioned, our hackles can also be raised, especially in light of our redeemed life under the New Covenant in Christ. Often when people refer to obedience to the Law, they mean that the Ten Commandments & other commands are ever before them & a constant checklist is kept to maintain a righteous standard thus pleasing God. Though in other cases, as I assume from your comments, you're writing about being obedient in all things unto God, as true servants of Jesus Christ; that any neglect in this area of obedience is a result of a spurious faith and/or defective teaching from the pulpit.

    For that reason, I generally avoid mentioning the Laws of God, rather emphasize obedience to the Holy Spirit within us, if indeed He is resident there. If we're led of His Spirit, we will know the Laws of God as they're written on our hearts (& in case we're unsure, He'll soon bring them to our notice); we'll know how to obey them (i.e. the righteous & deeper requirements of the Law & not of the letter, to which the Jews only gave regard), & we'll know forgiveness & restoration of our peace with God, when we come humbly before Him.

    So this is the only way I can reconcile 'being obedient to God's Laws yet standing joyfully in the liberty that Jesus has secured for us - i.e. being free from the bondage that the Law gives. That we're now free to obey God as the Spirit instructs & directs us; that no man should question us on what we do & the worth of our obedience, for we all stand or fall before God's Eyes only. So the encouragement from the apostles to the Church & to us, & from the Word generally, is that we be careful in our daily walk, walking worthy of our high calling in Christ Jesus. We can be assured, even with any conflicting matter within us, that the Spirit will always direct us to obedience & give us joy & peace in pursuing it.


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