Yes, that's what it means. You cannot be held to a law if it does not exist. In Romans 5:13, it tells us that sin was not imputed before the law was given because nobody knew what sin was even though sin was still there. If there is no law saying you cannot steal, you cannot murder, could you still be arrested for those things? If there's no law, what can they arrest you for?
However, there was and still is a consequence for sin. The consequence was death. From Adam to Moses, before the law was given, people were still dying. Even though there was no law showing them their sin, there was still a consequence. It says that death reigned from Adam to Moses even though there was no law. Everybody from Adam to Moses died. That's a consequence of the sin. We physically die too because of that.
As far as judgment, everyone will be judged the same. No one will ever be able to stand before God with the excuse "I never knew." Romans 1:20 tells us that they will have no excuse. Psalm 19:1-4 says "The heavens declare the glory of God. And the firmament shows His handy work. Day unto day utters speech and night unto night shows knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard." So verse 3 tells us that there's no language or speech that God's creation cannot reach. Creation itself is a testimony that there is a God, a creator.
In John 1:9, he talks about Jesus Christ, that He was the true light which lighteth, or enlightens every man that cometh into the world. The word lighteth in that verse means to illuminate or to enlighten. He enlightens every single person that comes into this life. That doesn't mean that He puts understanding in their brain. It means that He manifests those attributes about Himself to our spirit, to the conscience, and man has a response. We might be totally oblivious to the response but we have one.
Hello Jesse, A confirmation. Wasn't there an unwritten law before Moses? Adam was commanded, on pain of death, not to eat from that tree. As a result, humans have the same desire as Adam, "You shall be as gods." It was an unwritten law, but it brought death, "The wages of sin is death." What sin did Adam commit? God created him with a personality and certain characteristics as a human. The one thing God did not give him was independence from God. Eating the fruit was for the purpose of being independent from God.
Everyone is born with this tendency to commit evil, to live according to our own wishes. Like everyone else, a pagan is only lost when he lives according to his will. Can God save a pagan that has not even heard of Him? Of Course! How is that? "The just shall live by faith." God can reach a pagan the way He does anyone. He gives the gift of faith. He can bring a person to trust and belief, by our created world, to know a Great Power exist and has made Himself known. If that pagan gives himself to that higher power, he may be ones of those, when he gets into the kingdom, that knows nothing of Christ and His story. Zechariah 13:5, "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." It is true that Jesus is the Light that lights everyone that comes into the world, even pagans.
Hi Tony I'm curious about something you said God didn't Give Adam independance from Him that negates freedom of will Adam was given complete authority over earth to till it to keep it and a helpmeet to reproduce the only point that God made don't eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and evil. Except for that Adam and Eve had complete freedom of will, that changed when they were deceived and lost there spiritual connection with God and were subject to the will of the five senses. By the way that's how Eve was tricked by the enemy first His appearance then 1st step He got her to question what God said then to consider what he said then to add to what God said then to subtract what God said then at the end Ye shall not surely die when the true God said Thou shalt surely die. Then because of sin or broken fellowship that started there they lost the Spirit connection with God. Overtime they died physically from sin contamination the wages of sin is death, they because of disobedience lost the life quickening spirit.
Hi David, It is a pleasure to discuss spiritual beliefs with others, even when we have theological differences! Now to Adam's ability of free will. Before Adam received the "breath of life" as recorded in Genesis 2:7, he had no life. All the faculties' we humans have, were in place. However, he could not choose to give himself life until the Spirit entered him. This is the only way we can have spirit living. Adam lost this at the tree. We can choose evil over Good. Remember Esau, he could choose to turn his back on God, but what did he experience in terms of giving himself back to God's promise? Hebrews' 12:17, "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
As you well stated, "they lost the Spirit connection with God." Since then, humans, have lost that connection with God, and we are incapable of living the Spirit life of God by our choice. This is why Paul writes in Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." We are drawn to Spirit living by God's grace. God calls us. We do not choose Him; He must choose us. God commanded Adam and Eve to leave the Garden. They lost the Spirit of God in them. Therefore, they had no right to enter again. Cherubim angels guarded them from returning to Eden, though like Esau, I am sure they regretted their actions with tears.
We have the human capability to believe, but this is not saving faith. Saving faith, required to sustain our connection with God, is not something we grow into. It is a gift, Ephesians 2:8-9. And not a choice on our part. Recall that Jesus is the "Author and Finisher of our faith." Everything spiritual that Scripture says the redeem have is from God, and not of ourselves.
Hi Tony I agree with you about what you shared but Adam being body soul and spirit still had freedom of will like we who are born again either can walk by the spirit or walk by the flesh.
From the first Adam, all have sinned Romans 5:12. Even without the law we have sinned, there are people in this world that do much evil and there are people in this world that do much good and neither have never seen a bible or heard of Jesus. From the first Adam, not only death was passed, every person is born with the knowledge of good and evil, it is written in our conscience. With or without the knowledge of the law, one may choose to either do evil or do good.
We see in Romans 2:12-15, read the entire chapter. Jesus first came almost 2000 years ago, the Messiah for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then by the grace of God, the gospel of Jesus was given to all the other nations. Millions of people lived and died before He first came, are they doomed to eternal death? Millions since have never heard of Him, are they doomed?
What we should contemplate, will we that have heard the gospel of Jesus be held to a higher standard of judgment? We see when Jesus sent the disciples out to tell people the kingdom of heaven is at hand, what it would be like if they rejected it. Matthew 10:14-15.
Many see the great white throne judgment is only for the lost, but in my understanding, scripture does not support that. We have Daniel 12:2John 5:28-29Matthew 25:31-46, and more, and the parables. After the one thousand years, Revelation 20:11-15. All the rest of the dead small and great, raised from the dead, they will be judged out of the books and one of these books is the book of life, and whoever was not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Would the book of life be needed if all were lost? God is a just God and we can trust in His word.
This is my understanding, may others have another view.
Hi Ronald The book of Romans 1:18-23 Hits the nail on the head verse 18 who hold the truth in unrighteousness, I believe in God my way man either worships nature, self , others or a power based on intellect which is still self. This is why he is without excuse. All of what I mentioned is driven by the five senses which is our condition from birth i.e. lust of the flesh eyes pride of life. The unbelievers choose unrighteousness.
Dale It's not that they didn't sin or break fellowship when there was no law it's that they didn't sin intentionally mankind since the downfall are under sin born that way but before the law there were righteous men Noah that were taught what to believe and did there best to live accordingly. That's why they were made righteous by God or like Noah found grace in Gods eyes. That's why man is without excuse, we were built to walk with God so those who reject knowingly do so. By grace the law was given by God to instruct man as to how to live and what not to do. Something that was told me i never forgot if you don't believe and act on what you can see Gods Word which is instruction in righteousness how can you possibly listen to the spirit that you can't see. Before the law Gods word was passed down through the believing line Adam seth Noah Abraham so on.
I was 11 , when they banned the Bible The Ten Commandments, from all schools. We could NOT say the Lords Prayer, nor put our hands over our hearts and pledge allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America.
That's what America once, was like. Pure, simple.
Children these days will never have that UNLESS the parents and grandparents perform the blessing in their homes. Deuteronomy 28 spells out the curses to follow if we do not teach our children about a loving God, and His son who took their place on the Cross.
If all they see in the home is a closed Bible sitting on a shelf, it's not going to mean anything to them. Public school will produce more atheists.
In 1948, Israel became a State. Which began a clock counting down on the LAST GENERATION of people.
Evangelize your children. Mishael
Kids can watch SUPER BOOK animated videos on YouTube. I think they're great. My grandson watches them.
What Happened To America 50 years ago - In Reply - 2 years ago
In two landmark decisions - Engel v. Vitale on June 25, 1962, and Abington School District v. Schempp on June 17, 1963 - the Supreme Court declared school-sponsored prayer and Bible readings unconstitutional. The rulings provoked unprecedented controversy, says Melissa Deckman, affiliated scholar with the Public Religion Research Institute in Washington, D.C. "School boards got so paranoid about dealing with religion that they just said, 'We shouldn't do any of that at all,' " she says.
Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court decided 8-1 in favor of the respondent, Edward Schempp on behalf of his son Ellery Schempp, and declared that school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools in the United States was unconstitutional.
Madalyn Murray O'Hair was an American activist, supporting atheism and separation of church and state. See the article in its original context from June 27, 2002, Section A, Page 1.
A federal appeals court here declared today that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because the phrase ''one nation under God'' violates the separation of church and state.
In a decision that drew protest across the political spectrum, a three-member panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that the pledge, as it exists in federal law, could not be recited in schools because it violates the First Amendment's prohibition against a state endorsement of religion.
In addition, the ruling, which will certainly be appealed, turned on the phrase ''UNDER GOD'' which Congress added in 1954 to one of the most hallowed patriotic traditions in the nation.
From a constitutional standpoint, those two words, Judge Alfred T. Goodwin wrote in the 2-to-1 decision, were just as objectionable as a statement that ''we are a nation 'under Jesus,' a nation under Zeus, a nation 'under no god, because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion.
Does this mean if we do not have the law, we can't be held to it?
So if I never had the chance to read the bible or had some one tell me their is a God, am I going to be judged differently?
is this what Romans chap5 verse 13 means?
Yes, that's what it means. You cannot be held to a law if it does not exist. In Romans 5:13, it tells us that sin was not imputed before the law was given because nobody knew what sin was even though sin was still there. If there is no law saying you cannot steal, you cannot murder, could you still be arrested for those things? If there's no law, what can they arrest you for?
However, there was and still is a consequence for sin. The consequence was death. From Adam to Moses, before the law was given, people were still dying. Even though there was no law showing them their sin, there was still a consequence. It says that death reigned from Adam to Moses even though there was no law. Everybody from Adam to Moses died. That's a consequence of the sin. We physically die too because of that.
As far as judgment, everyone will be judged the same. No one will ever be able to stand before God with the excuse "I never knew." Romans 1:20 tells us that they will have no excuse. Psalm 19:1-4 says "The heavens declare the glory of God. And the firmament shows His handy work. Day unto day utters speech and night unto night shows knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard." So verse 3 tells us that there's no language or speech that God's creation cannot reach. Creation itself is a testimony that there is a God, a creator.
In John 1:9, he talks about Jesus Christ, that He was the true light which lighteth, or enlightens every man that cometh into the world. The word lighteth in that verse means to illuminate or to enlighten. He enlightens every single person that comes into this life. That doesn't mean that He puts understanding in their brain. It means that He manifests those attributes about Himself to our spirit, to the conscience, and man has a response. We might be totally oblivious to the response but we have one.
Everyone is born with this tendency to commit evil, to live according to our own wishes. Like everyone else, a pagan is only lost when he lives according to his will. Can God save a pagan that has not even heard of Him? Of Course! How is that? "The just shall live by faith." God can reach a pagan the way He does anyone. He gives the gift of faith. He can bring a person to trust and belief, by our created world, to know a Great Power exist and has made Himself known. If that pagan gives himself to that higher power, he may be ones of those, when he gets into the kingdom, that knows nothing of Christ and His story. Zechariah 13:5, "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." It is true that Jesus is the Light that lights everyone that comes into the world, even pagans.
As you well stated, "they lost the Spirit connection with God." Since then, humans, have lost that connection with God, and we are incapable of living the Spirit life of God by our choice. This is why Paul writes in Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." We are drawn to Spirit living by God's grace. God calls us. We do not choose Him; He must choose us. God commanded Adam and Eve to leave the Garden. They lost the Spirit of God in them. Therefore, they had no right to enter again. Cherubim angels guarded them from returning to Eden, though like Esau, I am sure they regretted their actions with tears.
We have the human capability to believe, but this is not saving faith. Saving faith, required to sustain our connection with God, is not something we grow into. It is a gift, Ephesians 2:8-9. And not a choice on our part. Recall that Jesus is the "Author and Finisher of our faith." Everything spiritual that Scripture says the redeem have is from God, and not of ourselves.
From the first Adam, all have sinned Romans 5:12. Even without the law we have sinned, there are people in this world that do much evil and there are people in this world that do much good and neither have never seen a bible or heard of Jesus. From the first Adam, not only death was passed, every person is born with the knowledge of good and evil, it is written in our conscience. With or without the knowledge of the law, one may choose to either do evil or do good.
We see in Romans 2:12-15, read the entire chapter. Jesus first came almost 2000 years ago, the Messiah for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then by the grace of God, the gospel of Jesus was given to all the other nations. Millions of people lived and died before He first came, are they doomed to eternal death? Millions since have never heard of Him, are they doomed?
What we should contemplate, will we that have heard the gospel of Jesus be held to a higher standard of judgment? We see when Jesus sent the disciples out to tell people the kingdom of heaven is at hand, what it would be like if they rejected it. Matthew 10:14-15.
Many see the great white throne judgment is only for the lost, but in my understanding, scripture does not support that. We have Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46, and more, and the parables. After the one thousand years, Revelation 20:11-15. All the rest of the dead small and great, raised from the dead, they will be judged out of the books and one of these books is the book of life, and whoever was not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Would the book of life be needed if all were lost? God is a just God and we can trust in His word.
This is my understanding, may others have another view.
God bless,
RLW
That's what America once, was like. Pure, simple.
Children these days will never have that UNLESS the parents and grandparents perform the blessing in their homes. Deuteronomy 28 spells out the curses to follow if we do not teach our children about a loving God, and His son who took their place on the Cross.
If all they see in the home is a closed Bible sitting on a shelf, it's not going to mean anything to them. Public school will produce more atheists.
In 1948, Israel became a State. Which began a clock counting down on the LAST GENERATION of people.
Evangelize your children. Mishael
Kids can watch SUPER BOOK animated videos on YouTube. I think they're great. My grandson watches them.
Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court decided 8-1 in favor of the respondent, Edward Schempp on behalf of his son Ellery Schempp, and declared that school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools in the United States was unconstitutional.
Madalyn Murray O'Hair was an American activist, supporting atheism and separation of church and state. See the article in its original context from June 27, 2002, Section A, Page 1.
A federal appeals court here declared today that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because the phrase ''one nation under God'' violates the separation of church and state.
In a decision that drew protest across the political spectrum, a three-member panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that the pledge, as it exists in federal law, could not be recited in schools because it violates the First Amendment's prohibition against a state endorsement of religion.
In addition, the ruling, which will certainly be appealed, turned on the phrase ''UNDER GOD'' which Congress added in 1954 to one of the most hallowed patriotic traditions in the nation.
From a constitutional standpoint, those two words, Judge Alfred T. Goodwin wrote in the 2-to-1 decision, were just as objectionable as a statement that ''we are a nation 'under Jesus,' a nation under Zeus, a nation 'under no god, because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion.
Mishael
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