Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Lily Mcallister on John 1
    Is the Holy Spirit a person
  • Messenger - in Reply on John 1
    Lily Mcallister on John 1

    Is the Holy Spirit a person?

    Jehovah's is a spirit ( Psalm 83:18; John 4:24). and he made his Angels spirits ( psalm 104:4);

    and he blew his spirit into Adam nostril "the breath of life." when a men or human dies, his breath goes out. and the spirit returns to God (not the flesh itself.. because the body is flesh made from dust - Genesis 2:7).

    the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, these qualities is his spirit. this he has created men in his image to display these qualities to take care of the earth. -

    Galatians 5:22,23

    According to Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus said go therefore baptizing in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit (the accurate term is holy spirit because John 4:24 accurately says spirit). Also, Jesus is not God ( John 5:19) but he was raised up as a spirit again; and he is a Angel.- John 14:28

    Point: God can give his spirit to anyone to serve his purpose- Luke 1:35. if we worship God, we must worship with spirit and truth- john 4:24. anyone who want to worship in truth...should believe in the word of God ( 2 Timothy 3:16,17). by this God will give his spirit and truth will speak.

    To illustrate: person 1, person 2, and person 3 are all different people. God will and can give his spirit to person 2 to carry out a particular task. God may want person 2 to completes that task fully. he may use person 3 or person 1 to do something completely different or accomplish the same purpose. (so yes the spirit basically belongs to God, because he is a spirit and the source of distributing that spirit to accomplish his purpose.- Genesis 1:1,26,27 ). no human can force God to do this or that. he is the boss of the spirit.- Isaiah 43:11-13

    hope these scriptures help.
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Jesus' prayer to His Father is found in John chapter 17. Sorry, I omitted giving that reference in my last paragraph.
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Hello Lily. If we say that the Holy Spirit is a person, some people might think that we believe in two gods. So that word (person) can often be unsuitable or confusing to some.

    It's best to understand the Holy Spirit (& Jesus) as living parts or emanations from the One God. Just as Jesus, before His incarnation (i.e. coming to Earth in human form) was the Word of God ( John 1:1-14), so to the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God sent out to accomplish God's Will. Neither the Word of God (Jesus) nor the Holy Spirit are ever independent of God - all are equally One & eternally One - God wouldn't be Who He is without the Word & the Holy Spirit.

    But when we read in the Bible of the Holy Spirit's Attributes & Work, we are actually seeing God manifesting Himself in the out-working of His Spirit. If you look up the following Scriptures, you can see God the Spirit manifested in a few ways:

    a. He is intelligent ( 1 Corinthians 2:10,11)

    b. He has feelings ( Ephesians 4:30)

    c. He has a will ( 1 Corinthians 12:11)

    d. He teaches ( John 14:26)

    e. He guides ( John 16:13; Romans 8:14)

    f. He commissions ( Acts 13:4)

    g. He commands ( Acts 8:29)

    h. He contends ( Genesis 6:3)

    i. He intercedes ( Romans 8:26)

    So, the Holy Spirit is not simply a force or a power of God, as some want to believe. He is God Himself because He goes about His Work as God desires (i.e. as if God was on Earth doing it). Nothing the Spirit does is contrary or independent of God, just as Jesus on Earth, perfectly fulfilled God's Will through His Words, His Life, His Work, & His Death (you can read Jesus' wonderful prayer to His Father in this respect). I hope that has been a little helpful. May the Spirit (the Living God) help you as you meditate on these things from the Word.
  • Lily Mcallister - in Reply on John 1
    Thank you Chris for replying it was an inspiriting answer and I appreciate your help
  • English sacha - in Reply on John 1
    Hi Chris , I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate being apart from God Himself . There are so many instances in the Old Testament where God says : I will pour out My Spirit upon them or him etc . It is God's Holy Spirit . We are filled with the Spirit of Christ which is the same Spirit that God gave to Christ without measure , His Holy Spirit . That is why we are allowed to call Him Father , I'm not as good with words as you are which is why I try to keep my posts short and after I read them through I'm often dissatisfied with my efforts . I think that may be why I'm sometimes misunderstood . I don't carefully pick my words or try to fit into an expected mould I just try to say what I believe in my own words . I'm sorry if that offends some people as it is never my intention to do so . I enjoyed your post , thankyou . I am often filled with a burning desire to express myself on here and have to make a serious effort to just say nothing as I know I won't get it out right .
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    I believe we are in agreement Sacha, that the Holy Spirit is not a separate Being, but having the very Nature of God, being God's Spirit that He has sent out into the World. The problem arises when the Spirit is perceived to be just a 'force or power' of God, thereby reducing Him to an abstract form. If He is to be God's Spirit, & God sends His Spirit into the world & ultimately indwelling His children, then we can be assured that it is God Himself that engages with the world & with His children. If the Scriptures reveal that the Spirit teaches, guides, contends, or grieves, then it is God Himself Who does this work or has those feelings, because His Spirit in the World is never separated from the One Who sent Him forth.

    In like manner, and of Jesus' position about Whom there is much contention & argument, God has never left His people without His Word & Witness. Whether of Israel or now of those coming in faith through the Cross, God's Word has always been clear & without interruption. As God sent out His Spirit to accomplish His Purposes in the World, so too God has sent out His Word for His people, Israel. But they despised that Word, disobeyed God & served idols. The Word they received was not "mixed with faith", even as those in Hebrews chapter 11 were commended for.

    Therefore, in due time, God once again sent out His Word to His people that they might receive the message, that the Word now given flesh would be the very means for God to forgive & justify sinners through faith in Jesus, His Word. I say all this, to show that even in the giving of Jesus, God was present on Earth in His Son. And that was the great cost of our salvation, that God should lay down His Life for us, because of His Love for us - no other Sacrifice would have worked or been acceptable. And all we have to do is to have faith in that completed Work.

    Therefore, both the Spirit & the Word of God (Jesus) are now & have been vital within the Godhead - without them, God wouldn't be.

  • [Comment Removed]
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Very true "Simply true to the word", my "error is astounding", if you don't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. I do believe that the Word of God (that which proceedeth out of the Mouth of God) became flesh. Since the Word of God & the Father & the Spirit are intrinsically One God, then Who died on the Cross? Jesus died, Who is the Word of God Who proceeded from the very Being of God & is now the visible essence of God.

    But if you believe that Jesus was a created Son of God & never part of the Godhead, then you would be correct.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply on John 1
    Brother Chris, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and His understanding.

    God is Spirit, HE can never die.

    Christ was the first man CREATED, and Christ WAS GIVEN a BODY. That body can holds the PRESENCE of God.

    Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction, he was afflicted, and the angel of his (the Father's) presence SAVED THEM: in his love, and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

    Christ emptied himself of God's (the Father's) glory and took on the BODY of SINFUL FLESH, to be (sinful flesh) DESTROYED.

    Sinful flesh died on the cross not Spirit (God).

    Into thy hands I commend my Spirit (there is ONLY ONE SPIRIT).

    Three days later SPIRIT gave back LIFE to the BODY (the resurrected body Christ had from the BEGINNING.

    This same BODY is promised to us by the SPIRIT'S work through Christ (dying as sinful flesh for us).
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Brother Earl. You wrote: "Christ was the first man CREATED, and Christ WAS GIVEN a BODY. That body can holds the PRESENCE of God." I would question that statement with the following verses & my remarks:

    Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (i.e. Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

    Jesus is the "firstborn of every creature" both in rank & birth. The matter of His Birth concerns us here. The word for 'firstborn' in Greek is 'prototokos' = first to give birth to. Unlike, some translators, applying the word 'protokitises' = first created. Jesus was never a created Being - He proceeded from the Father & made flesh for mankind's benefit. Both in His part in the Godhead & in His humanity, He was the "firstborn", for it was only through Him that all things in the heavens & Earth were created & are held together. To use the word 'created' for Jesus' Birth is a misnomer & fallacy, because He was never a created Being.

    Then we come to: "that body can hold the PRESENCE of God". Jesus may have laid aside His Glory, even given lower rank than that of angels, for the "suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:7; Philippians 2:7,8), but He never lost His Divinity & union to the Father. It is a misconception that in His Humanity, Jesus ceased to be Divine. If that were the case, we have a Saviour that became unqualified to pay such a ransom, & you suggest, took on a Body of sinful flesh (i.e. making Him a sinner). Rather, He took on the flesh (body) of man (as was Adam's, pre-fall), bearing upon His Body (carrying) our sins, that He might continue to be Holy & spotless, being the accepted Redeemer for our sins. Sin never entered Him & He never lost His Divinity even while on Earth.
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Chris,

    If I may ask a question, I respect your knowledge of scripture. Jesus is the Son of God the beginning of creation, He is the first and the last, and His name is above all other names that are named and through Him, all was created. After His resurrection, God placed Him above all, until He puts every enemy under His feet, and we know that is death, ( 1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

    We do see in ( Romans 8:3) He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, but there was not any sin in Him as was the first Adam when God formed him. The way many use the word Godhead, which is the same Greek words for divine, divinity, and divine being, gives the impression that Jesus could not sin. If Jesus was unable to sin what did He defeat? ( Hebrews 2:14-19)

    The covenant had to be fulfilled in the flesh that was capable of sinning to be able to break the curse of sin. Jesus coming and what He suffered for us was the will of the Father. We even see in ( Matthew 26:39-44) and ( Luke 22:41-44) being in agony asking the Father if there is another way, but not the Sons' will but the Fathers.

    Can't we know and accept the divinity of Jesus, as the Son of God, His name above all names, Him (Jesus) who now holds the authority overall, by God placing Him above all, Jesus is Almighty, ( Revelation 1:8), without saying He is God, which is called a mystery and confuses many? What I see and hear from scripture, there is God the Father, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, all are one in the will of the Father, and we as the servants of Christ, and through Jesus, we do the will of the Father and are one with the Father. Am I wrong?

    I do not want to cause strife, this is just a seriously honest question asked out of love.

    RLW
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Page 3.

    I don't know what you think of the early Church fathers, but at least two, who were contemporaries to the Apostle John: Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch (35-107 AD) stated, "For OUR GOD, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan" & in another writing, "Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life".

    Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna (69-155 AD): "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our LORD AND GOD Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead". And of course, there were many more after them that attested to the Divinity of Christ on Earth.

    I realize that these men, though historical, have their writings & letters considered extra-biblical, which will justifiably raise eyebrows & concerns. Yet, it does point out two things: that the Deity of Christ was still believed not only through the apostolic age but into the post-apostolic age and it was not at the Nicene Council in 325 AD, which pushed for the acceptance of Trinitarian belief, which is erroneously fed to us these days. The denial of Christ's divinity stems from Gnostic thought & propagation, & sadly many Christians fall for it. Apologies for the length of this response - I have tried to deal with your points briefly, brother.
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Chris,

    Thank you so much for your time in answering me. It has been a while, but what I do remember, Ignatius was implemental in setting up the appointment of bishops and their authority, I feel this is what Jesus was referring to in Revelation about Nicolaitanes. What I remember of Polycarp, he was against the teaching of the immortal soul and idol worship.

    I understand the main debate was Jesus being created and not divine but they went too far. When Christianity went out some of the word meanings were influenced by Greek philosophy like the meaning of death it came from Plato, it was the separation of the soul and the body, and Aristotle wrote: "All things are true, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods;

    The trinity doctrine says the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and co-equal, scripture does not support that to me. If so, why are not all three the temple in ( Revelation 21:22)? When I was studying one day I came to this verse and it stood out like a magnifying glass was in front of it. ( 1 John 2:22-24)

    I'm sure you have a different understanding, but I feel if I say Jesus is God I am denying the Son, it is the Son and the Father, and when we make them one, we deny the Son and the Father. I know this is a subject that many will not even discuss and it is considered heresy not to believe in this doctrine, and I thank you for your reply.

    I assure you I am not of Gnosticism as some of the posts on here. Your kidney analogy was pretty good, your kidney is part of you, it will always be your kidney, but you gave it to save someone. God gave a part of Him, not created by Him, but out of Him to save you and me. Your kidney is part of you, it is from you, the same DNA, but after you take it out of you can you say it is you?

    I will ask you a question I have asked before, can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?

    God bless you and the work you do.

    RLW
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Page 2.

    The understanding of God & His Son Jesus meant much more than Jesus appearing at birth as the Son of God - it meant that Jesus proceeded out from God ( John 16:27,28).

    You would not be denying the Son of God by referring to Jesus as God (always within the Deity from whence He came at the first). Jesus, as God's Word, was always within the Godhead. The fact that He became human can't deny Him His Divinity (or else, He wouldn't be worshipped in Heaven: Revelation 5:1-14; & holding the descriptions of God: Revelation 1:8,11,17,18). If He weren't part of the Godhead, how could He receive worship from the heavenly hosts?

    "Can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?" you ask. I believe he can be. One doesn't have to know & understand all doctrines or have read the Bible through, to attain salvation, except to come in contrition, an earnest yearning for salvation, & that through faith in the Cross. But after knowing the Word, & rejection of the Deity of Christ, I have no opinion on what is God's matter alone.

    Two questions from me, which I have asked several times before on KJBO, without answer:

    1. Why did God have to send His only begotten to die for us - couldn't a special Heaven-prepared lamb not do the job? Leaving aside the prophecy speaking of a Man coming in David's lineage, since prophecy is only God's Word sent out after God's Determination first.

    2. If John 1:1-14 speaks of God's Word being with Him & of Him, & that Word was given a human body & dwelt among His people, what other meaning can be given to these words, other than a clear belief of Christ's Deity? Why do those who reject Jesus' pre-existence fail to give an exposition of these verses? Every blessing.
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Part 2.

    Brother Chris,

    The second question, first I do not believe anyone can deny the divinity of Jesus or His pre-existence of everything. ( Colossians 1:16) He was the beginning of creation and through Him, everything that is was created. The Son of God was with, from, and was the word of God.

    I feel our mind with the preconceived ideas over the years, plugs our ears and blinds our eyes. It is like the word beginning when we see or hear the word beginning eternity pops in our head. It is like ( John 1:1-2). God has no beginning so, what is this beginning in John 1?

    Scripture tells us God is from everlasting to everlasting, it tells us Jesus is the only begotten Son, the beginning of creation, but scripture does not tell us when or how he was begotten other than it was before creation and when He came in the flesh. Jesus is of God, and from God, the Son of God even the demons knew who He was and did not call Him God, ( Matthew 8:28) ( Mark 5:7) ( Luke 8:28).

    In John 1, John is writing this after Jesus had ascended, in the beginning, is when the Messiah/Jesus first came, the beginning of His ministry, He was the word of God, the Word was God because it was from God, in Him was life and the light of men. John the Baptist was sent to be a witness of this light who was Jesus, and this light cometh to all in the world. It "shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not". As then the same today.

    Jesus now was in the world that He made and they did not know him, He went to his own/Israel and they rejected Him. But as many that received Him became sons of God born again into the kingdom of God not of the will of the flesh but of the Father.

    The word of God was made flesh, in scripture everything Jesus said or did was told to Him by God, ( John 5:30) Jesus was the word of God. In ( 1John 1:1-7) John's opening is similar to his opening in John 1, he is confirming John 1.

    I hope this makes sense?

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Once again, brother Ronald, your comments are appreciated & vibrates well in both my mind & spirit.

    You wrote of "In the beginning". Of course, this strongly suggests that there was a beginning, or commencement to this Word, yet we know & accept that God Himself had no beginning (in time). From eternity to eternity He will ever be God. If then God is eternal & His Word & Spirit must always co-exist within Him & with Him, we can then only question the meaning of "In the beginning". So, it's always been natural to interpret that to mean 'From eternity' because of God's Nature, but as you suggest, it's beyond us, how else could we interpret this phrase & still make it fit Who God is?

    As much as I understand that you don't deny Christ's divinity, there is still the belief that divinity came upon Him at some other point: whether in His Birth, Life or ministry. So, even though we cannot be clear to "In the beginning", we can be clear that God's Word, immaterial, yet in God's Essence, emanated from Him, God choosing that Word to be made flesh. He could have chosen His Spirit to take on humanity instead, but that thought would lead us nowhere. Whereas, the Scriptures that have been cited in other posts, give us clear evidence that Jesus understood His Presence with God, having been graced with God's Glory pre-creation ( John 17:5). And in Colossians 1:16 which you quoted: He was not only in the beginning of creation, but as the verse tells us, He was the Creator (I can only understand this as the Creator God & His Word were joint Authors of all creation).

    All these show us Christ's Divinity before His coming in Humanity. That He was the Son of God by virtue of His Birth & not by His pre-existence. And indeed, the demons called Him the Son of God, because that's Who He was & to Whom they were addressing. The point is, does a reference to Jesus' Sonship negate His Deity & intrinsic connection to the Father in eternity? Thank you again & may His blessings be yours always.
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Page 1.

    Brother Ronald. Thank you once again for your comments. I agree, whether Ignatius, Polycarp or any other succeeding them, even the Apostle Peter himself, can all be found in error in some doctrine or teaching ( Galatians 2:11-14). Though, my point was in their belief in the Deity of Christ.

    To your references on the Trinity 'fallacy': Revelation 21:22. God is Spirit - the Spirit of God is within the Godhead - the Lamb (post resurrection) is in His glorified State, as the Incarnate Word of God made flesh & now in Glory. Jesus is no longer the Word of God within God's Being, but His Word made flesh, risen & reigning at the Father's right Hand.

    1 John 2:22-24. You seem to be well studied brother. Then you would know that 1st John was written explicitly to confront the errors of Gnosticism (& other false teaching) that were running rampant in the Church. The discussion begins from verse 18, concerning the many 'anti-christs' in the Church, deceiving the believers by their lies & corruption of accepted apostolic teaching. The prevailing Docetic (an off-shoot of Gnosticsm) heresy was that "the incarnation was incredible because Deity cannot unite itself with anything material, as a body of flesh".

    Then in the reference you gave, the question from John is, "who is a liar?" The liar is that one who has come to you denying the incarnation, saying 'it's impossible for a Holy God, Who is Spirit, to unite with sinful flesh by having a Son: "but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son". This would have reference not only to the Jews that deny Jesus as their Messiah, but certainly to those who went by the name of 'Christian'; they who denied either His proper Deity, or real Humanity, as Ebion and Cerinthus, who were denying Him to be the God-man, the Mediator, & the Messiah. (cont'd).
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Part 1

    Brother Chris, I thank you for your reply from the bottom of my heart and the love you show in it. I guess we will have questions until we die, and I feel our search for answers, if we humble ourselves in love as knowing nothing, in the body of Christ our walk will only be in the Spirit of truth. It's like when we were a child and we asked Daddy, Why.

    Your first question; why is His only begotten Son the only one that could die for us? We think of this question mostly of me and not us, why did God send His only begotten Son to die for, rotten old me? Who am I? The unfulfilling answer is God loves us ( John 3:16) ( Romans 5:6-10.) Throughout the New Testament, God is referred to as Father, God wanted a family ( Ephesians 1:4-5). That started on day six and I feel things happened then that were not written, but that is another discussion.

    The only one worthy of being the head of this family was His Son and only a holy man capable of sinning but strong enough not to sin was Jesus His only begotten Son. What is amazing Jesus was willing to do it. ( John 10:17-18). We see in ( 1 Corinthians 11:3) the structure of this family that we have messed up.

    I feel there is more that is not in scripture that we can only speculate which gets us out of line. Satan is one of the reasons it could have only been the only begotten Son, and very little about Satan is in scripture.

    I know you're probably looking for a more in-depth answer than this but for me, we would need more scripture covering after the seventh day, what happened when the angels left their first estate, and the involvement of Satan before the Garden of Eden. Sorry I know that is a big What!!!!

    continued
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply on John 1
    Brother Ronald, the Spirit has also revealed the same to me:

    1 John 2:22-23
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Thank you Brother Earl,

    May we always walk and be led by the Holy Spirit of truth and in the light that we will not stumble and if we do, we can see to get up.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • English Sacha - in Reply on John 1
    What a lovely image , thankyou .
  • Rick - in Reply on John 1
    Hi Ronald What I see in scripture is God and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are one in purpose but not entity, gospel of John 1:18 but again I know people who believe one in the same and one in purpose.
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Page 2.

    Yes, I believe Jesus was capable of committing sin as he was flesh & Satan took advantage of the weakness & susceptibility of it. But for Him to sin, would mean the receiving of a sin nature, become a failure as Adam became, & be rejected as the only acceptable Sacrifice for sins. We would never be able to attain salvation in any other way & only God could know what His Son's condition & position would be henceforth (I couldn't even begin to contemplate such a thought). But for His holiness, His resolve, & His great love for us, He thwarted Satan's attempts "on all points" of temptation pertaining to life.

    To think of Jesus just as "the Divine Son of God & Name above all names without saying He is God", I believe is to seriously undermine the Nature of God in its completeness. Just because a kidney can be removed from me & transplanted to another, doesn't mean that stops being my kidney (just a weak analogy). Fortunately, I can survive on one kidney, but it will always remain my kidney that I gave to another because I was born with it & was given from my body. If Jesus (the Word) came out from God's Being, He always remains God, even as God's Spirit always remains God. What causes the confusion, is our incapability of understanding that 'three can be one' with any 'part' able to be wherever, doing whatever God prescribes for 'it'.

    Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord & my God" ( John 20:28); as well as Philippians 2:6; Colossians 2:9,10; John 10:30,33; Isaiah 7:14 cf Matthew 1:23 are some Scriptures that attest to Jesus' Divinity.
  • Chris - in Reply on John 1
    Page 1.

    Hello Ronald. Thank you brother for your thoughtful comments & I certainly respect the spirit that you have given them in. In considering both the individual aspects of your comments as well as its overall thrust, I would say that at the first, we need to determine Jesus' position pre-incarnate & post-incarnate. On this determination, hang all our beliefs & discussions of the Godhead (i.e. the Father, the Word & the Holy Spirit).

    Re: Jesus' flesh. As I read the Word, I believe that Jesus was born of God entirely pure, i.e. with flesh untarnished with sin. It could be said that his flesh was as that of Adam, pre-fall. However, Adam sinned & the sin nature & propensity to sin passed on all of us, but Jesus refused to sin, that "he was on all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" ( Hebrews 4:15b) - still in the flesh but the sin nature couldn't take hold. Some would say that Jesus was the product of the fusing of the seed of God & the seed of Mary. I would tend to disagree; if anything directly human was involved in human production, then the sin nature has to be passed on. I believe that what was placed in Mary was entirely of God & Mary was the vehicle for bringing forth a child, in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning Him.

    So, when I say 'Godhead', in lieu of 'Trinity', it is to firstly avoid the naysayers, & secondly to emphasize that the Godhead cannot be complete without the Word & the Spirit being vitally connected & a part of Almighty God's Being. If the Word proceeded out from God, as even He sends forth His Spirit, then the Word made flesh must be the exact personification of God, sans the humanity & the laying aside of His Glory that "He had with (God) before the world was" ( John 17:5).
  • Fred - in Reply on John 1
    Chris, thank u for this !Yes, Mary was a vehicle for God. Vehicle is not proper to say, but understanding how His will was done . The spirit is real, and moves and came upon her! The spirit that was born in the flesh of Christ, was the same spirit that was formed within Her. I think the scripture says that he was without form ( the earth was without form and void)This is the same spirit that holds all things together. The same way he moved within her is the same way He moves upon those that believe in Him. Thank u for your insight
  • English Sacha - in Reply on John 1
    Dear RLW , that was an excellent post , thankyou . With you on everything you said .
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Thank you Sacha,

    I love reading your posts, it is refreshing, there is not a curtain covering your heart.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • English Sacha - in Reply on John 1
    Dear Ronald , if there's any love in me it comes from God . As a young person (under 25 ) I was an emotional desert . I didn't know how to give or receive love at all . If someone was nice to me I was embarrassed because I didn't know how to respond . It was only when I started to read the Bible that I recognised the emptyness inside me . I actually asked God , in prayer , to teach me how to feel and give love . I'm a work in progress ! Much love in Christ .
  • Adam - in Reply on John 1
    Hello, not sure if I'm understanding your view correctly, but it sounds like maybe you don't believe Jesus is God. I do understand people's different viewpoints around this, because God the Father is just referred to as God in many cases. For example, Son of God in the wording suggests that He's not God, but the Son. However, that isn't the whole picture- as there's so much Bible verses showing His divinity and it would be hard for anyone to deny that Jesus himself was called God and scripture says He was God in John 1:1.

    1. Isaiah 7:14 - People called Jesus Immanuel which means "God with us"

    2. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

    3. John 8:19 "if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

    4. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    "Word WAS God."

    5. Philippians 2:5 - 2:8 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

    "form of God"

    "equal with God"

    6. John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Jesus made everything.

    7. John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

    8. John 20:28

    "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

    9. 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

    10. Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image"

    "Let us make" - plural.

    What I gather from this is they are different but the same. We will probably never 100% comprehend this until after this life. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, but it says they made everything together, are in each other, have similar form, they both have great power to do miracles, and both are referred to as God in the Bible.
  • Earl Bowman - in Reply on John 1
    Brother adam, may christ in us grace us with his wisdom and his knowledge.

    the spirit is the god. everything after this is by inheritance.

    christ was the firstborn. the firstborn received the inheritance of the father. his father is the god (source of life, truth, etc. christ became a god through inheritance.

    christ came to give us this same inheritance, we also will become a god through inheritance.

    psalms 82:6

    john 10:34-35

    john 17:21
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Hey Adam,

    I would love to discuss this lovingly, I am born again and I do my best to walk in the Spirit and I pray when I study to be led by the Holy Spirit. I was in a church in my early life but not saved until my forties. I have been to many different denominations since, and from what I have seen, this creed is placed above salvation that is only through Jesus Christ and placed as the foundation of Christianity.

    Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means "God with us". Another understanding, when the first Adam sinned God could no longer dwell in man. Jesus, the last Adam, on the cross repaired what the first Adam did, God can again abode/dwell in man. In Jesus through the Holy Spirit God dwells in us, now God is with us.

    John 10:30 answer, John.17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    John 1:1 The word was God (in the beginning) God has no beginning or end so, what beginning? Is this beginning of everything or is it a prelude to Jesus's ministry that John repeats in 1 John 1 the declaring the Messiah has come in the world? I do not believe Jesus was created. Is there anyone living that can say how Jesus was begotten? Does not a word have to be spoken before it is a word?

    Philippians 2:5 answers Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. If we read a little further we see why ( Philippians 2:8-9)

    I can go on but my question is; why has this creed, the trinity doctrine, developed four hundred years after Jesus by the Roman Catholic Church that is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, has become more important than the gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Do you believe if someone does not accept the trinity doctrine they are not saved and are not a Christian?

    In the love of Christ,

    RLW
  • S Spencer - in Reply on John 1
    Brother Ronald.

    Part 2.

    As I mentioned I don't believe Adam would have been driven out of the Garden to keep him from eating of the tree of life because that life would have abided in him. And there would have been no need of a sacrifice or penalty of sin.

    Hebrews 10:14-22. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    HAVING THEREFORE, BRETHERN, BOLDNESS TO ENTER INTO THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS,

    By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

    And having an high priest over the house of God;

    LET US DRAW NEAR WITH A TRUE HEARTH IN ASSURENCE OF FAITH, HAVING OUR HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    The spirit now dwells in us only by the blood of Christ cleansing of the temple. " 1 Corinthians 3:16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    Therefore we have boldness to enter into Gods presence and so would have Adam "if" Gods spirit dwelled in him. He would have never been moved out of the Garden because of 1 John 3:9.

    Here is the difference between the 2 Adams- 1 Corinthians 15:45-50.

    Verse 45- And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a

    ( quickening spirit.) "Life giving spirit." Whether Adam sinned or not he could never give life.

    Verse 46- Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. We also inherit that which is natural not because Adam sinned, " Because he was a living soul. So is our 1st birth.

    GBU.
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Part two

    How we walk in this world is for our conscience ( 1 Peter 2:18-21), If we are treated badly, how we respond is recorded in our conscience regardless of how justified we fill to repay the wrongful treatment. I know we have all done this in the past but through the grace of God and the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus we can repent and He will cleanse our conscience.

    I feel this is the dwelling place that Jesus repaired that the first Adam polluted with sin and through when we repent the Holy Spirit continues to wipe the spots to keep us clean. In John 14:1-4 that many have a different understanding of, what this speaks to me is, this is just before Jesus was going to be arrested and crucified. Later in the chapter Jesus told them He would ask the Father to send the Comforter to them in His name.

    Jesus told them He was going to prepare a place for them, He said in His Fathers house are many mansions. The word mansion is monai meaning an abiding, an abode or dwelling place. Jesus was going to the cross to shed His blood and pay the penalty of sin that the first Adam put on mankind.

    The union that the first Adam had with God before sin came in is now restored through the sacrifice and the blood of the Lamb of God His only begotten Son and Jesus' resurrection from the dead, now this union can again be with man through the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.

    The first Adam broke the union with God the last Adam repaired the union that is why I use the name Immanuel/Emmanuel God with us, again.

    After the first Adam sinned God communicate through angels, and the prophets until Jesus and God communicated directly through Him. When Jesus as the high priest sprinkled His own blood in the holy of holies not made with hands, God now communicates directly to us, the union has been repaired. We are now His family, sons and daughters.

    I hope this is enough for you to understand what I meant if not please let me know.

    In the love of Jesus

    RLW
  • S Spencer - in Reply on John 1
    Brother Ronald.

    Part 2. Genesis 2:25.

    Lets look at Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the (knowledge of good and evil,) thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Let's take Genesis 3:7-11. ( And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;) and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    Verse 9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, ( Where art thou?)

    Here in verse 9. I don't think God is speaking of their location, I think He is speaking of their condition.

    "No one can hide from God."

    And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and ( I was afraid, because I was naked;) and I hid myself.

    " It's Interesting Adam is afraid because he was naked, rather than his disobedience."

    Verse 11. And he said, ( Who told thee that thou wast naked? ) Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    Genesis 3:22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    It seems the text goes a little further than just their disobedience, There's a lot of emphasis on being Naked and knowing it. Sinful flesh exposed Maybe? The consequence of knowing is where the threat lies! Why? Perhaps so they want attempt to cover themselves when Christ was ordained to come into the world before the world began. The blood of Christ was to be their covering. That's why I hold the view God provided them covering from a blood shed sacrifice pointing to Christ.

    Gen. 3:21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the "LORD God" make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    Have you noticed verse 21 "LORD" God is used? The covenant name, This where the sacrifices started and the sacrifices pointing to Christ. It was taught to Cain and Abel. Only after the resurrection GOD spirit would Dwell "IN" man.

    Hebrews 10:14-20.

    God bless.
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Part two

    I know the first Adam could not bring eternal life but I feel the first Adam was the start of the plan of salvation, and the undoing of Satan. and the penalty of it was death, that was eternal death, and the first sacrifice for sin that God covered Adam and Eve with skins of innocent animals, as you said a picture of what His Son would do for us. The first Adam initiated the purpose for the last Adam Jesus Christ and the defeat of Satan.

    I was relating to the conscience before, the word naked in Genesis 2:25 is a word arom that means just what is says unclothed. They were innocent or we could say ignorant to nudity until they ate of the tree and they knew they were nude, their eyes were opened, their conscience filled with shame and fear of judgment, that is why they tried to hide. The word in Genesis 3:7 -rum-mim is a different word meaning nakedness with shame. I feel when God said, "where art thou" is like a father calling out to a child he knew where he was but to see if he would show himself.

    Adam was afraid for his disobedience, it is like a thief that heard a siren, he runs to hide to avoid the punishment. Lord God YHVH Elohim instead of God Elohim the name used from Genesis 1, until after day seven Genesis 2:4? Elohim supreme one or mighty one the creator, in chapter 1 God only created without any reaction with what He had created. YHVH Elohim Master, communicator, He started communicating with Adam as a Father would a son.

    Not all was written, like with Cain and Abel, Abel brought of the sheep he kept and Cain brought of the plants of the field. Abel brought of the firstlings, but it does not say Cain brought of the first fruits. It is not written so; do we assume because Cain did not bring a blood sacrifice is why his was rejected? According to Genesis 1 they were to eat plants?

    I have enjoyed this, and will continue studying, may we always walk in the Spirit of truth.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • S Spencer - in Reply on John 1
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    Part 1.

    As I promised once I settle back at home I would reach out and continue our dialog on the 1st Adam and 2nd Adam.

    RECAP.

    As I said I don't believe God dwelled "IN" Adam. Below is some of the previous references below.

    The spirit now dwells in us only by the blood of Christ cleansing of the temple.

    ( 1 Corinthians 3:16. )

    ( Hebrews 10:14-22. )

    Therefore we have boldness to enter into Gods presence and so would have Adam "if" Gods spirit dwelled in him. He would have never been moved out of the Garden because of ( 1 John 3:9. )

    Here is the difference between the 2 Adams- ( 1 Corinthians 15:45-50. )

    Verse 45- And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a

    ( quickening spirit.) "Life giving spirit." Whether Adam sinned or not he could never give us eternal life.

    Verse 46- Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. We also inherit that which is natural not because Adam sinned, " Because he was made a living soul. So is our 1st birth.

    Here is a quote from part 1 of your reply:

    "When God formed the first Adam and made Eve out of his rib, they were in the garden naked and they were not ashamed ( Genesis 2:21-25). Their conscience was clean and white, not touched with sin, a dwelling place where God could communicate directly to Adam. After sin we see the voice of God walking, we know who that was.

    If we look at all the scripture about our conscience it is where evil or good dwells. We are convicted by our conscience, our conscience records every thought, every intent, every imagination whether good or evil, it is the part of us that is recorded in the books that will be opened. This is why the law fell short it could cleanse the flesh but was uncapable of cleansing the conscience. ( Hebrews 9:8-14) ( Hebrews 10:1-12)." End quote.

    In part 2 I will address the view I hold on Adam and Eve being naked.

    See Part 2.

    Thank you.
  • Ronald L Whittemore - in Reply on John 1
    Thank you, S Spencer,

    Brother, on part one, this is something I will have to study more, I agree with what you are saying but it seems empty, if you know what I mean. Because the first Adam, before he sinned is unlike any mortal man since he sinned, his body was not born in corruption like ours, sin was not in him. We know man cannot see Gods face and live, Exodus 33:20-23, until the new heaven and new earth, Revelation 22:3-4 in our glorified bodies.

    Going by Exodus no man can see God's face, so is that after sin or does that include the first Adam? If so, how did God communicate with Adam? He communicates with us through His Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus that dwells in us like you said by the blood of Christ shed on the cross. We see that even after they were cast out of the garden they were still in the presence of God because Cain was the first to be driven from the presence of God, Genesis 4:13-16.

    Are the cherubim and flaming swords a shadow of the ark where God sits between the cherubim? Is that why they were in the presence of God?

    I feel the first Adam and the last Adam Jesus Christ is all part of Gods plan that was before this world and I feel it involves Satan because this plan, that was before this world, included the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels, Matthew 25:4. However God communed with the first Adam he was part of this plan that Satan could not see, up to the crucifying of the last Adam, the only begotten Son, Satan was blind to this because he did not try to stop it. Like what He tried to do with Job he thought he could get Job to curse God to His face, which he also failed.

    The questions here is more for me to study not to you.

    continued
  • S Spencer - in Reply on John 1
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    You are right, there is so much that is not given in scripture so most is conjectural.

    I also believe Adam lived in a different environment for lack of better terms, "Before sin entered the world."

    A big question that troubles me is the word naked. It seems it carries more of a spiritual meaning than nudity often in scripture.

    I believe often it's the opposite of being clothed with righteousness in a way mentioned here in Isaiah 61:10-11.

    The question is was Adam and Eve naked spiritually before eating of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil and perhaps they were clothed in a way mentioned in Ezekiel 16:7-15. We know good and evil existed long before Adam. "But they had no knowledge of it until they ate if the fruit. Look at Genesis 3:17. in that context, ( AND THE EYES OF THEM BOTH WERE OPENED,)....( and they knew that they were naked;...) and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    I believe as you do Adam and Jesus Christ is all part of Gods plan that was before this world and I feel it involves Satan because this plan, that was before this world, included the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

    I believe in the Gap theory, Not as some do and try to fit the Dinosaurs into that gap or any other life existence that we know of, I believe they were all created in the Genesis account. I believe Lucifer may possibly have had a dominion here on earth in that Gap.

    Here's why. Ezekiel 28:13. ( Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; ) every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    The account in Genesis Lucifer has already fallen, He's not adorned as mentioned in Ezekiel 28. " I believe this fallen mentioned here is positionally. and. "Down to Earth."

    until next time.

    GBU.
  • S Spencer - in Reply on John 1
    Hi Brother Ronald.

    Sorry for the Delay in responding, I'm working in and out of town, often unable to get to a computer. I agree we all need to be able to have these much needed topics discussed in Love, humility and peace. That's why I enjoy these discussions with you. If you will allow me to get back to you when I settle in back home. I didn't want to appear to be ignoring you.

    I would like to touch on Adam and Eve "NAKED" and not being ashamed.

    thanks and

    God bless you


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