Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • ROBERT LESTER OBERTHER on 1 Chronicles 9
    I need documentation supporting that christian musician responsible to be in charge of playing and presenting all of the church music,should be paid.
  • Suziq - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Robert Lester Oberther ,there isnt any scripture to support wages ,in my Church a person might claim some expenses ,travel ,petrol etc and we would always offer free refreshment ,food and drink etc but no wages , if they needed equipment we might purchase it but not wages . The only time we might give wages is if the person was not a Christian member of our congregation and we were employing them ,if it was a Christian member of our congregation they would definately not ask for wages .
  • Adam - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Hello, I'm not sure what your definition of wages is. My definition of wages is money. This money can be used to support someone, whether it being used for food, water, clothing, transportation, gift, or whatever.

    Paul accepted money from churches as well as food, shelter, etc.

    2 Corinthians 11:7-9

    1 Corinthians 9:14 - it's ok to make a living preaching the gospel. It doesn't stay they must only get a stipend so they're below poverty, and doesn't say you might give millions and buy them jets and islands, either.

    1 Timothy 5:17-18 - preaching and teaching is a job

    Most churches have volunteers for part time commitments, but there are some key members that work full time and it's not right to demand full time labor from someone and not properly compensate them, unless they insist on working free. Basically you're taking their available time away which they would otherwise use to produce income and failing to give them any support in return. I believe that is wrong. No one has a right over someone else's labor- that is called slavery.

    So, if a church has a full time worship director role then it's only fair that person is properly compensated above poverty level so that person can support themselves and a family. If the church can't afford it then they should consider reducing the responsibility greatly back down to what a volunteer could manage.

    God bless...
  • Suziq - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Hello Adam ,i absolutely get where you are coming from about Paul and his associates but in my mind they werent taking wages ,fellow Christians were ministering to them because they didnt even have what was necessary ,they were ministering food and clothing etc ,Paul had nothing ,we should never turn away from any one who doesnt have even the basics to be safe and warm and fed ,even if they are not Christians , my guess is that if Paul ,who had nothing felt as if he had excess he would pass it on to some one who needed it more than him ,he truely cast all his care upon the Lord as we have all read in his letters ,so yes ,i fully appreciate your post Adam but for me giving some one what they need to survive is not giving them wages its ministering to their needs ,to me wages is saying 'if you do this i will pay you for doing it ' . I hope i have explained myself ok ,God bless you .
  • Adam - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Ok, maybe you think it's ok to do 'things' for people in ministry, but don't give them money. Money is no different than the things. Just a temporary I owe you note to make it more convenient to convert into things.

    There's a false idea that people feel entitled to stuff for free and I'm against that. Because basically they're demanding others to serve them and serve their needs for free and that's wrong, because its a form of oppression and slavery.

    The reality is nothing is a free. If you want to go to church for free and not pay anything, that's great, but as far as I'm concerned you're not doing your part, because churches aren't free- land costs money, building, taxes, insurance, water, sewer, safety measures. It's very expensive. So is renting people- people shouldn't serve you for free if full time unless they insist. I think it's wrong to demand such things of others. Church shouldn't be commercialized like a market or a bank- that's what Jesus turned tables for. But Jesus didn't say to cheat and not pay the landlord rent, or to not pay taxes, or to only have a low % pay for everything and that all the rest act as leeches and don't contribute. You live in a reality where food, shelter, clothing costs money and church and full time staff costs too and it should. It all makes sense when one day people act entitled to your labor and ask the same of you in return for free. God bless.
  • Suziq - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Hello Adam ,maybe you didnt read my earlier post ,in our congregation we have collections to cover our building cost ,also to donate to charities and to put in a welfare fund for members who might find themselves in difficulties ,we dont have any full time staff ,whatever needs doing we all pitch in as best as we can .We have a free coffee morning on a Saturday where any one can come ,we provide refreshments ,just coffe and cakes and biscuits ,we dont charge any one for these ,we provide them . We behave as a family ,we all help each other out as best we can . The place where we have our services is a building we own ,its small and simple so it doesnt cost a lot to keep it up ,keep it simple keep it inexpensive .
  • Mishael - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    I worked in a Church too as a volunteer in Benevolence, Food Pantry, and Front Desk fill-in for others.

    They bought a building that had been a gay spa. We worked hard to pray over it and turn it into a family church.

    Yeah, I know how it goes...

    I much prefer music ministry that's personal and of the Congregation. I can close my eyes and remember little Baptist country churches; everyone singing and sharing a hymnal. Fried chicken dinners out on the lawn afterwards. Nice memories indeed.

    I always believed everything I did at Church was, "as unto the Lord". I've had a great, full life. It's sad to see how the government persecutes the American churches now. I pray it gets better.

    I did not say what I did against neighborhood churches. Sometimes I wonder how Mega churches are able to manage one-on-one. I'm sure they do tho. We should rejoice even more, as we see the Day of the Lord approaching.

    I kinda like getting up early so I can join the birds, praising God. I like to listen to them grumble because the Sun is too slow that day. :D

    Then they break out in song as first light breaks out. I do my best praying then.

    I meant no criticism. I just hope that when I get my transformed body in heaven; that I don't sound like a frog when I sing.

    Love you, brother

    I saved one of your posts on Salvation, for my very busy son. Thanks for your devotion.
  • Mishael - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    I was a street minister many years. May the Lord bless you for loving an old man in need.

    I used to take a backpack of homemade sandwiches, bags of chips. Or I bought coupon books from McDonalds or other restaurants near where the homeless gathered. Took many of them inside for a meal and some conversation.

    I never hurt their feelings by scolding them for drinking. I just tried to get a meal in their stomach. Some Word in their mind before they sleep.

    What you did was like-Christ. It was personal, one-to-one. No one ever hurt me, cussed me or walked away. I spent my own money for comic book tracts, because everyone likes those. (Chick Tracts).

    You're very blessed my friend.
  • HIRED ENTERTAINMENT vs BIBLICAL PRAISE and WORSHIP - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    1 Samuel 18:6

    ...... that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of music.

    2 Samuel 6:5

    And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.

    2 Chronicles 5:13, 16 and 7:6

    It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying, For God is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

    Psalms 87:7, 68:25, 150:4

    As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

    Amos 6:5

    That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David;

    Habakkuk 3:19

    The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief SINGERS on my stringed instruments.

    Genesis 30: 27-28

    28 And he said, Appoint me thy Wages, and I will give it.

    Comment: We live in different times. I think the members of the Church should praise the Lord as a group. Special songs should be free-will offerings. Sacrifice of Praise blesses God, as we see from scripture. He gave Israel victory over their enemies in battle, time after time.

    However today, Churches are under pressure to hire professional bands and singers, which travel from church to church, and incur expenses.

    You need to search this out, seek the counsel of your elders in your church. Discuss the budget. Also, do not neglect to teach the flock the power of Corporate Praise and Worship vs pew sitters. STAND and sing unto the Lord.

    Mishael
  • Suziq - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    1st Peter ch5 v2 springs to mind immediately ,personally i dont belive any Christian should ever make money off their relationship with God ever . Not as a business ,there was a preacher in my town yesterday ,by himself in the rain ,we had a little chat and i discovered he goes around the area where i live preaching in the streets for free off his own bat , he was retired ,the rain started to get pretty heavy so i voluntarily gave him 20 bucks so he could go in a cafe and get something to eat and dry off ,he didnt ask me and was very reluctant ,im sure if it hadnt been raining hard he wouldnt have taken it , i belive that God sometimes works through us to help other people out but im not comfortable for His Praise and Preaching to be done for wages ,in my Church absolutely no one takes wages ever ,our collections go 1st for the upkeep of our building 2nd to registered charities and we as members can request a collection for some one or specific charity ,and 3rd into a welfare fund for our own members if they find themselves in dire straights ,every member is allowed to view our accounts any time they like . Money and Christianity ,again incongruous springs to mind .
  • Chris - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    That was a lovely, God-led act you did Suziq, in giving a little gift to that elderly preacher. I'm sure he must have praised the Lord for your act of kindness & would have had a another confirmation from God of his important ministry - that the Lord was well aware of his service & providing this encouragement through your hands.

    I would not have a problem with serving or ex-armed forces personnel in uniform in Church; and being in full dress uniform, they would be required to wear service medals. I would be very gratified & blessed to see that those who have been called to serve their countries, willing to lay aside comforts & security, to be found in a chapel declaring their submission & allegiance to the King of kings. This must speak volumes to them, as well as to those who worship & fellowship with those heroes.

    Even though there are many more expenses & encumbrances upon Churches today, I still believe that they have grown too large, not numerically, but in dependency on the materiel, the latest in gadgetry & obligated salaries. This may not be a bad thing for sustaining or developing the local Church, but we have generally lost sight of what the early believers practised. The elders & deacons had secular jobs, ministry to the members or those outside Christ were done freely expecting nothing in return, & their worship places were in homes or in simple dwellings. The apostles or those in full-time evangelistic work received support from the Church (not by compulsion), and even Paul had to resort to his trade (tent-making) when finances got a little tight ( 1 Corinthians 4:11,12; Acts 18:1-3). So my feeling that any demand for a salary when members participate in Church ministry (preaching, music, maintenance of building & grounds), should not be the norm, but a freewill offering of service unto the Lord. Anyway, that's what I've always done & believe to be right before the Lord.
  • Suziq - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Corporate Praise and Worship. For some reason those words make me feel the same way that i feel when i see people in military uniforms full of medals sitting in a Church ,incongruous ! Thats the word i think im looking for .
  • The Terminal Generation - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    I've heard soldier testimonies in Church. No one had a dry eye through it. You do not know what you are saying.

    I was very young when my parents bought our first tv (60's). We watched the evening news at the dinner table. The Viet Nam war was on it every evening. I saw the people protesting, throwing rocks, taking over college classrooms. I saw the wounded and the flag draped coffins of the dead soldiers. Men placed on litters, others in wheel chairs with no legs. Pain on their still young faces.

    Their families were separated from the hate seething crowd of war protesters who screamed 'baby killers' at them' and threw flags at them. The children of the soldiers looked scared.

    Seeing it every evening, marked me a Patriot, forever. I feel sorry for you. What you see on your tv is a LIE. National News is owned by antichrist people. Against Christ, against the Flag, against anyone who serves and protects this nation's freedoms.

    Once in a while news people do a soldiers story when there aren't any riots, nothing is burning up and they need a soldier's story to pad the time slot.

    Millions will be Left Behind after Jesus removes His Church from the Earth. TV will be managed totally by Antichrist. Everything is barcoded or marked now. People are next.

    God knows what's in our hearts.

    When you learn how to cry real tears for a soldier, or anyone who goes to work in a uniform; you'll understand...maybe? I'm of the last generation; the Terminal Generation.

    When Israel reformed as a country in 1948, it activated a prophesy. This Generation will not pass away without witnessing the Return of Jesus Christ to Earth. His feet don't touch the soil, until the LAST battle. Try to find an Arthur E Bloomfield book on prophesy, if you can.

    You have no comprehension how close Christians are; to being caught up in the clouds, to Jesus.

    I'm not angry. Just sad about all the screaming people do. No happiness. Just a lot of hate.

    Mishael
  • Suziq - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Hello Mishael ,i have been reading the posts on this site for quite a long time so i feel as if i know a few of you guys and girls but you dont know me ,im convinced that you are a clever guy and a faithfull Christian who has read all the Bible ,so you know already that we are called not to conform to this world ,we are called to resist our sinfull nature ,belive me when i say that i have felt like comitting an act of violence and i still do feel that way sometimes ,i know in my heart and from my Lord Jesus that that is not what he expects from me ,either on an individual level or as part of a group ,army ,country etc ,the natural man is strong in us all ,we want to protect the things and people that we love but we must fight against the natural man and love God and Jesus more than anything or anyone else , a true Christian must never under ANY circumstances instigate violence against any one else ,its a tough ask i know ,we are not even supposed to defend ourselves with violence ,we are not supposed to defend anyone else with violence ,Jesus faced all these temptations ,right up to the garden of Gethsemane when one of his disciples drew a sword ! One of the ways we can help our selves in this is to not put our selves in situations that might require us to use force ,so...we should not join willingly the armed forces or the police ,we know what will be required of us in those proffesions and we know that its not what we are called to do .
  • Sacha - in Reply on 1 Chronicles 9
    Mishael ,my beloved grandad fought in ww2 ,he was a p.o.w. in a prisoner of war camp in burma for just over 3 years ,he was 6ft 2inches tall and weighed 120 pounds when he got back to england and he had been in india recovering and being looked after and fed up back to health by the extremely kind and generous people of india for 6 months ,when he was first liberated he weighed less than one hundred pounds at 6ft 2 inches ,he wouldnt talk about the prison camp but did talk about some of his exploits ,he killed many people ,using guns and in hand to hand combat with a knife ,many people belive ww2 was a just war and im not going to dispute that but wars are fought by people ,individuals who will suffer because of their actions ,my grandad was a lapsed catholic ,when his time came to die ,a natural death ,he was afraid ,afraid because he belived he was a murderer and would have to answer to God for his actions , he would not be convinced by any one that he was not responsible for his actions ,he belived killing any one under any circumstances was wrong and i agree with him ,he was sorry for what he had done ,wars are fought by people and people have to answer for their actions ,Micah ch4 v1-4. Isaiah ch65 v 17-25 .



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