God bless to all first of all, I have seen a lot of discussion on the commandment this is my view, Yes we we are commanded to follow obey and let these commandments be the guidance of our lives, and inm sure we all wake up when he wakes to follow each and everyone but as we see in the bible it also a great large list too very wide of what not to do, but do we understand that God has already let us know and told us in his word, we were conceived in sin, and saved by the shedding of his blood, but yet we are still sinners, we wrestle against the flesh inside of us each day, He already knows we can not follow each commandment each and every day, God know we will fall and fail on daily bases, it is why he says come to him to confess our sins, sincerely ask for repentance and forgiveness. Now we all know this does not mean go on keep sinning because God will forgive us, no indeed!!! that would be disastrous and dangerous to our salvation to do that. I believe God means and teaches us in the bible each day, rise up and do your very best to not sin, have an eye on on the enemy, be able to identify him, don"t stay focused on him keep your eye, your mind, your heart stayed on the Father, so we may use the tools the Lord has given us to overcome him and the sinful life. God yet again, says there is no one without sin no not one. We must remember to discuss the bible and all his truth with love and kindness, let's fall into the role of judgement toward each other, if some ones says something we don"t agree we must say we don't agree, or maybe say nothing and pray for the other person so that they may find the truth, and lovingly and move on share the good news we know, let's be careful in judging others how they were taught where they were taught, leave judgment and correcting up to our Father God for he he knows how to teach and correct us. Let share the word in love. Love all God Bless
In 1 Peter 4:18, it says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
The word "scarcely" in the Greek text is a word that means difficulty. Jesus said that we would go through trials and difficulties as believers. What this is saying is that if the righteous are saved with difficulty accompanying them, not that it's difficult to get saved, but once we're saved, difficulty accompanies our salvation, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
I mean if we're going through hard times and we're saved, wow, wait 'til the sinner comes under the judgment of God. They won't even be found!
The most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power are found in Romans 8:38-39. It says, "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God, and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.
This is what the Bible teaches about salvation. Salvation is permanent. It is man who has changed the emphasis from salvation by God to salvation by man, and it is part of the apostasy of the last days. People today are being told that they are saved because of some followed formula, but Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 that believers would be known by their fruits, not by their human works.
If a person believes they can lose their salvation based on something they do, then it is a works-based salvation and has nothing to do with the Spirit of God and God's power to keep us saved.
I place my trust in God and His power to keep me saved until the day he comes to redeem me. He says He is the one who is Keeping me and I believe and trust in His promise. It is Christ who lives in me. He has promised to NEVER leave me nor forsake me. And as long as He lives in me (Which He says He will never leave), I will be saved. And that is why I believe in the permanency of salvation.
My salvation is not based on what I do or don't do. It is strictly based on what God has done for me. God called me, and I responded to the call and received Christ. He saved me, and it is through His power alone that I remain saved. I cannot trust in my flesh to remain saved because my flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord. I have to trust in the one who saved me, the one who has given me His Spirit, and the one who is keeping me saved!
Jesus Himself said in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and the one coming to me I will NEVER CAST OUT." Jesus goes on to say in John 6:39, "And this is the will of the Father who has sent me, in order that of all which he has given to me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up in the last day." If you read John 17:11-12, you see that we are kept by God's power.
I firmly believe in the permanency of salvation because the Bible teaches that God is the One who saves and He does so from out of His mercy. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8 that grace, faith, and salvation are gifted from God.
In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 18, John says "We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin; but the one who has been born from God, God IS KEEPING him, and the evil one does not touch him." John also says in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them; and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life; and they will NEVER PERISH FOREVER and not anyone will seize them from out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to seize them from out of the hand of my Father."
Paul emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit. He says in Ephesians 1:13-14, "In whom also after having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance, for redemption of the possession, for the praise of His glory."
Paul says again in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God in whom you were SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION."
Salvation is the most important issue here and I need more than one post to give you an answer to your question, so please bear with me.
(Part 1)
There are those who believe that salvation can be lost and then there are others who believe in the permanency of salvation. I personally believe that salvation is permanent and here's why:
First of all, the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is based solely on God's Spirit coming into the spirit of a human being; and in so doing, causing that person to become a new creation in Christ. A person's experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an act of God, not of man.
According to the Bible, the salvation process begins with God the Father. Jesus said, in John 6:44, "No one is able to come to me unless the Father who has sent me should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day."
In the early Church, the requirement for salvation was the presence of God's Spirit dwelling within a person. Paul said in Romans 8:9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this one is not of Him." Salvation happens only when God's Spirit enters and remains (Permanently) in a person's spirit, thereby causing spiritual birth.
God is the sole source of salvation. The Bible also teaches that every saved person is KEPT by the power of God. 1 Peter 1:5 says that believers are "The ones who are BEING KEPT in the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Paul says in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are opposing to one another; in order that you should not do what you want."
These scriptures show that believers cannot be taken away from Christ by the flesh, because the Spirit of God is dwelling within to prevent that from happening.
The Bible warns many times that a person can lose their salvation. Here are a few places.
John 15:6 "If a man abide (remain) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Thank you for asking me to share my thoughts. Here they are:
In John 15:6, the word abide (MENO) denotes permanency. There are branches that are in the tree but are dead branches, and there are those branches that abide permanently in the tree or vine. It says if a man abide not in me. So this is talking about someone who is not saved. A saved person is a person who is abiding in Him, and that person is the one who abides permanently. It's the dead branches (Unsaved) that are cast into the fire. These branches do not produce fruit because they are dead.
I can't take Romans 11:21 without considering Verses 19 and 20 also. Why were the natural branches not spared? These branches were broken off because of their unbelief. This is referring to the Jews who rejected their Messiah. No salvation there.
2 Peter 2:20-22 does not tell me they were saved. Having knowledge of the Lord does not mean they were saved. In Verse 21, the emphasis is on what they know. They haven't surrendered their life to Christ. Verse 22 would indicate to me that they were never saved. They had the knowledge of the truth, but never surrendered to Christ.
There has to be a transformation and a change because a pig will always go back. You can wash it, put a bow around its neck, spray it with perfume, and you know what's going to happen. It's going to dive right back into that mud hole again.
Both verses in Hebrews are referring to Jews who were following along with the teachings and were being enlightened to the truth, but never surrendered their life to Christ because of the persecution they would face if they were to do so. Do you realize what it would cost a Jew, even today if they were to give up Judaism to receive Christ as their Messiah? These Jews were being enlightened to the truth but instead of surrendering to Christ, they decided to return back to Judaism.
1) When someone "truly" believes in Christ Jesus, he automatically receives the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10:44) and is attached to the vine, Jesus Christ. This is nicely explained in the parallel account at:
Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be GRAFFED IN. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.
Notice, the "gentile" believer, like a branch, is graffed into the olive tree because of his faith in Christ Jesus. But, Paul says to fear - why? Because God can "spare not thee" as he "spared not" the unbelieving Jews.
2) The apostle Peter was writing to faithful believing Christians. See 2 Peter 1:1. He is giving them a warning against false prophets. See 2 Peter 2:1. He specifically says about these ones that they "have forsaken the right way". See 2 Peter 2:15. So, at one time, they were on the right way. At 2 Peter 2:20, he says that they "had escaped the pollutions of the world" but, unfortunately, "they are again entangled therein". They have returned to the world.
Thus, they are likened to a dog who has vomited out his vomit and left it for good. But, then, he returns. Or, the sow (pig) who used to role in the mud. Then he leaves the mud and is cleansed. But, unfortunately, he then returns. In a similar way, these ones who believed in Christ Jesus and received the Holy Spirit and were cleansed of their old, sinful ways, have now returned to their sinful practices. Peter says "too bad for them". Jude says they have "died twice". See Jude 14.
3) As for Hebrews, Paul is speaking to believers.
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,". This happened when they believed. See again Acts 10:44.
As we know there's several views of Hebrews 6. Here's 4 commonly used.
1) Paul is talking to unconverted Jews that has been enlightened but turned back to Judaism.
2) Paul is talking Jewish believers to urge them towards Maturity, who's mengaling in Judaism, as did the Galatians.
3) Paul is talking to a mix of the 2 just mentioned 1 and 2.
4) He's talking about Jews loosing salvation.
Consider this verse you mentioned-
Hebrews 6:4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
"IF" This verse means salvation, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW YOU AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. "" MEANING YOU HAVE ONE CHANCE IN A LIFETIME TO
GET IT RIIGHT!! ARE YOU ARE FOREVER LOST!! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! To renew the broken commitment, MEANING ONCE YOU COMMIT ONE SIN YOU ARE LOST.
Which Dont fit in the light of these scriptures?
Jude 1:24-25. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
John 10:28-29. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Romans 8:38-39. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hello brother Spencer, Is there a choice of Paul speaking in the Hebrew's 6 interpretations of this repentance being for the Jews alive who witnessed the heavenly gift crucified, being then only, in Jesus Christ at Calvary, that no other day will come?
Thankfully brother Spencer we have so many bible instructions on the operations of the body of Christ, the Church and bride, including a washing of our feet by one another and greeting with an Holy Kiss, we have clear instructions to examine our lives together as members of the the bride so that we can commune together in oneness by the Spirit. My wife and I who were married in the Lord are one in faith as well as many of my closest brethren which I can count into the hundreds and hundreds whom I have met and greeted.
So we endeavor by the Grace of God in Jesus Christ to walk more closely in him which often requires denying ourselves of our own wants and ambitions so that we can be more like him, the Lamb of God.
God bless our faithful conversation in peace that has no end.
Carleton ,what a lovely post ,thankyou ,the way you express yourself ,in all your post ,should be an example to us all ,you always make your point perfectly clear without any note of aggresion at all , i can learn from you and so can all of us i think ,you never sound as if you are trying to belittle any one or provoke anger in any one ,its a gift and you have it ,please keep using it for all our sakes .
Good Question, I believe Paul's Message to the Jews that may have possibly witnessed the crucifixion would not change if he spoke to those who haven't seen, as well as us.
Which leaves each view with the same problem, "Impossible to restore " When l consider verses 7, 8, and 9
I believe he's talking about what accompany salvation. "Maturity and fruitfulness by the Spirit, It's Impossible to achieve that under the Leviticus priesthood. That would be in the context with ch 4 and 5 and the following chapter, ch 7. Let's do a study on verses 6 and 7, I believe they speak of Growth.
Thiese are very tough verses to. e dogmatic, But can for sure rule out loosing salvation.
Thank you brother Spencer for taking the time. I lean towards this thought being what Paul was trying to say. I do agree that these verses do not lend much support if any to the subject of personal salvation.
I am a witness though to very many reconsecrations from what appeared be, by their own words, having been overtaken in sin. The very short story and I have my own too, are night and day changes in spirit, actions and love from coming through a repentance and then separation from the willing sin(s). The power of the Holy Spirit in some of these changes is convincing to anyone witnessing at the time. These experiences from separation by sin to repentance and reconsecration are good and edifying and keep the Church of God blameless. My thoughts are open to correction.
You've posted a lot of scripture, unfortunately many of the same scripture.
some refers to those were enlightened but not saved, "as many of us today but never coming to Christ for salvation " And some saved but haven't matured as you see here.
" Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
And we see both groups in the verses you stated.
But Like a said and still say it's not talking about SALVATION in Romans 6.
Another verse you keep posting is 2 Peter 2:20 to make a point of losing salvation from a group that never had it. if you want to consider that verse let's start from verse 1.
2 Peter 2:1-19. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2 Peter 2:14-20 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
THESE PEOPLE PETER IS SPEAKING OF HAS HEARD THE GOSPEL BUT IS NOT SAVED.
1) In short, yes, Peter is warning about false prophets who left the true faith and, in short, apostatized. But, the warning that Peter is giving, is to faithful believers, to not follow them and become rejected as they were. Notice.
2 Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall THEY (apostates) with feigned words make merchandise of YOU (true faithful believers): whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."
The apostates want to make the faithful Christians into apostates too. Thus, the warning. Why? Because there is a real serious danger.
2) They were not just enlightened, they were true believers.
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,"
If you are made partakers of the Hold Spirit, you have received God's Holy Spirit and are a Christian. You have to safeguard that or God will take away his Holy Spirit.
Psalms 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and TAKE NOT YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME."
I concur with you, though, in that we can agree to disagree and move on.
SPsalms 5112 14 KJV Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation and uphold me with - In Reply on Romans 5 - 2 years ago
Hi Michael.
I agree on moving on,
I just wanted to give my thoughts on your last reference.
Psalms 51:11. CAST ME NOT AWAY FROM THY PRESENCE; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
In the old testament God's presence came amongst them and I believe empowered them.
The spirit even came upon Nebuchadnezzar and many others as instruments. Today he put his Spirit in us.
Hebrews 10:16-19. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
King David was a man after the Lord's own heart but he lost his joy and that's what he's crying out for.
Psalms 51:12. "RESTORE UNTO ME THE JOY" of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psalms 51:14. DELIVER ME FROM BLOODGUILTINESS, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Unfortunately, I think your missing the point. The point that I was making is that the persons of the Old Testament who did God's will, had God's favor and acceptance. Those who did not do God's will or stopped doing God's will, lost God's favor and acceptance.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Joseph, David, and many others did what God told them to do and had God's favor. Cain, Korah, King Saul, and many others disobeyed God and lost God's favor.
Would Noah have retained God's favor had he stopped building the ark? (No.)
Would Korah have avoided being destroyed by God, had he stopped opposing Moses? (Yes.)
1 Samuel 15:22-23 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in OBEYING THE VOICE OF THE LORD? Behold, TO OBEY is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also REJECTED THEE from being king.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but IF THOU FORSAKE HIM, HE WILL CAST THEE OFF FOR EVER."
The Apostles, writing to the Christians, warned them time and time again to obey God and not to disobey God.
I can't agree that when someone truly believes in Christ that they automatically receive the Holy Spirit. Belief alone does not save anyone. James 2:19 seems to indicate that. I took a look at Acts 10:44 as you've asked. But also I have to look at Acts 10:43.
This is where the beauty of the Greek text comes in because it gives me a different perspective. Acts 10:43 in the KJV says, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
There are two things about this verse: The word believes is a present participle which means continuously believing. It never stops. Secondly, the term "in him" is the most common term for believing in Christ. It is EIS AUTON in the Greek text, and it means "into him," a very different meaning than just believing "in Him."
It is a word that expresses surrender so that whosoever continually believes and continually surrenders to Christ, will receive forgiveness of sins. Emphasis on continually. This shows who a saved person is. Their belief and surrender never end. There are a lot of people who believe in Jesus Christ but are void of His indwelling Spirit.
Again, with the branches being broken off, I have to say they were broken off because of unbelief. Gentiles were grafted in, and it says they likewise can be removed just like the Jews were. But this is not talking about a saved individual losing their salvation. A Gentile can also be a dead branch in the tree just like the branches
A branch can be in the vine and not produce fruit. It will be cut off. The branch that remains in the tree will produce fruit continuously because it is feeding off the life source of the tree or vine which is Christ. That branch will never be cut off.
I don't believe Hebrews 6:4 is referring to saved individuals, but to Jews who were following along but never surrendered their life to Christ, as Judas did for 3 years.
I think you've answered the question yourself. A Christian must continue to believe in order to be saved. We agree. However, that is our choice. We can continue to believe and trust or we could chose to stop obeying God. It is our choice.
Now, you say if he stops believing God, then he never really was a true Christian. Regardless, what is for sure is that a person has to continue believing and that we do have a choice in that.
Therefore, we have to fight the human sin in us and the appeal of the world that could lead us away from Christ. Example, we could be tempted to start practicing fornication. That is our choice. We either fight the flesh or we give in and fornicate. That is why Paul warned the Hebrew Christians to not give in and fornicate.
Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Maybe Paul was not fully saved. What if he did leave Christ and and became a willful sinner and fornicator? That question we will never know. All we can know for sure is that WE must chose to believe and obey God and continue doing so in order to inherit the blessing of eternal life.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 "I" have fought a good fight, "I" have finished my course, "I" have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Notice, Paul say "I" have fought a good fight. "I" have finished my course. "I" have kept the faith. It required a conscientious decision on Paul's part and a personal struggle to do so. For that reason, he had a crown of righteousness laid up for him.
A "Christian" who practices willful, serious sin will not be saved.
A Christian who genuinely follows Jesus can have assurance of salvation, but no one is technically saved until after they are judged on Judgment Day. Those who believe the opposite have a lot of hurdles to overcome and rationalize, like why someone would go to heaven or hell before they are even judged, or why people would go to heaven, only to come down to earth to re-enter their old bodies, only to meet Jesus in the air and go back to heaven- all before judgment apparently.
Instead, people will more likely die and be 'asleep' until Christ comes, then will rise and ascend to a place of judgment. Some believe in a waiting place like purgatory, but I think there's ample scriptural evidence that says we'll just be asleep. Even if a thousand years passes, to the person sleeping it will likely only seem like only a second has passed before you wake and be judged.
I don't know of any place in scripture that teaches that a person who belongs to Christ can end up in Hell. No Christian who has been truly born of God's Spirit will ever end up in Hell.
The entire salvation process from start to finish is all of God. The only thing we as human beings can contribute is the sin from which we need to be saved from. Now, once we are saved, at what point does salvation go from God's grace to human works? Are we not saved by God's grace alone according to Ephesians 2:8-9?
If we believe we can lose our salvation, what do we have to do to lose it? Again, if it is something we do to lose it, then it is no longer grace, but works on our part.
If you can please share with me any place in scripture that says Christians can end up in Hell, I am open to checking out what you can show me that teaches that.
There is no such thing as "Once Saved Always Saved", that's straight from Satan himself. God told John Himself what he would do to Christians not keeping the Commandments.
( Rev 2:12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
God Himself is rebuking his Church and threatened to kill them with the sword of his mouth, which signifies Hell. But why would God do such a thing? Because people were not keeping the commandments, eating things sacrificed unto idols, commiting fornication, which are all Laws but since we have been taught not to read the Old Testament, we are ignorant of these things.
Answer me this, If God, Himself, told us that there is no New Thing under the Sun, why do we have a New Testament? We don't, its all one, connected. All the Disciples and Apostles studied and quoted the ,"so called Old Testament". Everything that they preached and taught came straight from there but these people keep us from even looking into it.
Read the remainder of Revelation chapter 2 and 3 for yourself, he's rebuking 6 of the 7 Churches and threated to kill them! These people were indeed followers of Christ but had Hell dangled over there heads. All Praises to the Great I AM!
I'm not here to get in between this discussion. Just wondering who are "these people" who teach and keep people from reading the Old Testament you have stated twice now? Obviously no one here, I know of, as the Old Testament is regularly spoken of and promoted.
There is a New Testament(Covenant). Here's God speaking of it in the Old Testament, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Yes the Old Testament is quoted several hundred times in the New Testament. Though there are many things in the New Testament not in the Old Testament.
Just to be clear to maybe help others you are conversing with. What are God's Laws or God's Commandments you are stating we should follow? All of the 613 Mitzvot laws or just the Ten Commandments?
Jesus Christ is the way.
1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.
Romans 13:8 & 10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Hi Richard. When I need a good washing on the Word: I actually read Proverbs to look for my weak ie Being wise and avoiding snares.
Jobs friends sounded reasonable, but at the end they were corrected by God.
To know to do something and then not do it. I don't think Jesus cared for that.
Like Paul, I got knocked off my high horse, and saw Truth standing in front of me. Let us all remember our beginnings, when we didn't know much at all.
If we forget practical, we are standing close to political. Just a weird thought...
You are so right brother dan , its not complicated ,we all know the standard that Christ set for us to follow ,things only get complicated if we find ourselves in situations that as Christians we shouldnt have allowed ourselves to get sucked into in the first place , keep our own lives as simple as we possibly can and dont look for problems where there arent any , if we are thoroughly grounded in our faith ,if we trust in Gods love and mercy and if we are trying every day to keep the life and example of Christ before us ,things are very simple ,always do the right thing ,even if it results in ourselves being the loser its worth it ,know when to argue and when to just leave people to their own ego's ,Jesus knew it was pointless talking to some people ,so should we .
Brother Dan, may CHRIST IN US grace you HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
I am going to QUOTE YOU.
It's very simple, the 10 commandments.
Jesus said:
John 14:15
If you love me keep my commandments.
This is not supposed to be complicated.
Believe and trust in what Jesus says.
This is exactly what he told Israel. If they would have keep his commandments they would have remained in a right relationship with God. They would not have needed a NEW COVENANT. Since keeping God's commandments is so simple and easy; WHY NOT JUST DO IT and you will not need the NEW COVENANT; But, history proves this effort fails one hundred percent.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 .... I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES....
Knowing that God warned and punished both houses of Israel for backsliding, adds richness to your point. God said he would punish them seven times (7 x 360 day for a year = 2,520 years) for disobedience.
The house of Israel (10 tribes) were taken captives by Assyria in 721 BC + 2,520 = 1800 Briton, "the isles of the sea"
The house of Judah (3 tribes) were taken captives by Babylon in 604 BC + 2,520 = 1917 Balfour Declaration
Everything in its time, and revealed in one moment.
As I'm sure you've seen my previous posts about this. I'm sorry if my perspective offends you but it is way more vast than just the Ten Commandments. If that was all God wanted us to follow that would be pretty simple. I'm going to put together a list for you of just some things we are to avoid.
Some people think to "love one another" is simple. Actually it can be the hardest thing in life. To put loving others before everything, even your own self.
This is also just a simple list to guide us and is not everything we must repent of or stay away from: evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murder, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, Being filled with all unrighteousness, maliciousness, full of envy, debate, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, despiteful, proud, boasting, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful, uncleanness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, drunkenness/drugs, revellings, lovers of their own selves, boasters, unthankful, unholy, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, love of pleasures more than loving God, sowing discord between bretheren, filthy communication out of your mouth, cursing, anger, etc. Then this posted after several places "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
It is much more vast than just the Ten Commandments. This is why God has Blessed us to receive the Holy Ghost and we are to live after the Spirit of Christ in us. Not after the flesh. Which we are in these bodies until our journey here is over. Our fight is to war against what is evil(in the flesh) and do good(live after the Spirit). Stated at the end of Galatians if we strive to produce good fruit of the Spirit against such there is no law.
You stated a long list of sins that can be committed.....the list is probably much longer....and I do understand your point. You make a good point, and I also do believe that any sin committed can be attributed to one of the 10 Commandments in "one form or fashion".
I think most christians will agree our goal is to live as sin free as possible, but when we fail... we need to ask for forgiveness and try a little harder. God surely knows if we are trying or not.
In summary, I will say that disregarding any of the 10 Commandments will most surely be problematic for many.
Many if not most Christians today just throw the 4th Commandment in the trash....in my opinion not a good way to start a successful journey to heaven.
I don't want to follow the crowds......
Matthew 7:14
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Why does Jesus say this? Does he mean it? I think he does, and I believe him!
Be blessed
In 1 Peter 4:18, it says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
The word "scarcely" in the Greek text is a word that means difficulty. Jesus said that we would go through trials and difficulties as believers. What this is saying is that if the righteous are saved with difficulty accompanying them, not that it's difficult to get saved, but once we're saved, difficulty accompanies our salvation, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
I mean if we're going through hard times and we're saved, wow, wait 'til the sinner comes under the judgment of God. They won't even be found!
Is the theory once saved always saved correct?and can you please explain salvation to me what does salvation mean?and can it be lost.
Temeko,
The most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power are found in Romans 8:38-39. It says, "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God, and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.
This is what the Bible teaches about salvation. Salvation is permanent. It is man who has changed the emphasis from salvation by God to salvation by man, and it is part of the apostasy of the last days. People today are being told that they are saved because of some followed formula, but Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 that believers would be known by their fruits, not by their human works.
If a person believes they can lose their salvation based on something they do, then it is a works-based salvation and has nothing to do with the Spirit of God and God's power to keep us saved.
I place my trust in God and His power to keep me saved until the day he comes to redeem me. He says He is the one who is Keeping me and I believe and trust in His promise. It is Christ who lives in me. He has promised to NEVER leave me nor forsake me. And as long as He lives in me (Which He says He will never leave), I will be saved. And that is why I believe in the permanency of salvation.
My salvation is not based on what I do or don't do. It is strictly based on what God has done for me. God called me, and I responded to the call and received Christ. He saved me, and it is through His power alone that I remain saved. I cannot trust in my flesh to remain saved because my flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord. I have to trust in the one who saved me, the one who has given me His Spirit, and the one who is keeping me saved!
Jesus Himself said in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and the one coming to me I will NEVER CAST OUT." Jesus goes on to say in John 6:39, "And this is the will of the Father who has sent me, in order that of all which he has given to me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up in the last day." If you read John 17:11-12, you see that we are kept by God's power.
I firmly believe in the permanency of salvation because the Bible teaches that God is the One who saves and He does so from out of His mercy. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8 that grace, faith, and salvation are gifted from God.
In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 18, John says "We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin; but the one who has been born from God, God IS KEEPING him, and the evil one does not touch him." John also says in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them; and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life; and they will NEVER PERISH FOREVER and not anyone will seize them from out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to seize them from out of the hand of my Father."
Paul emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit. He says in Ephesians 1:13-14, "In whom also after having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance, for redemption of the possession, for the praise of His glory."
Paul says again in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God in whom you were SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION."
(One more post to come)
Salvation is the most important issue here and I need more than one post to give you an answer to your question, so please bear with me.
(Part 1)
There are those who believe that salvation can be lost and then there are others who believe in the permanency of salvation. I personally believe that salvation is permanent and here's why:
First of all, the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is based solely on God's Spirit coming into the spirit of a human being; and in so doing, causing that person to become a new creation in Christ. A person's experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an act of God, not of man.
According to the Bible, the salvation process begins with God the Father. Jesus said, in John 6:44, "No one is able to come to me unless the Father who has sent me should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day."
In the early Church, the requirement for salvation was the presence of God's Spirit dwelling within a person. Paul said in Romans 8:9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this one is not of Him." Salvation happens only when God's Spirit enters and remains (Permanently) in a person's spirit, thereby causing spiritual birth.
God is the sole source of salvation. The Bible also teaches that every saved person is KEPT by the power of God. 1 Peter 1:5 says that believers are "The ones who are BEING KEPT in the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Paul says in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are opposing to one another; in order that you should not do what you want."
These scriptures show that believers cannot be taken away from Christ by the flesh, because the Spirit of God is dwelling within to prevent that from happening.
More to follow:
The Bible warns many times that a person can lose their salvation. Here are a few places.
John 15:6 "If a man abide (remain) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I welcome your thoughts.
Good day.
Thank you for asking me to share my thoughts. Here they are:
In John 15:6, the word abide (MENO) denotes permanency. There are branches that are in the tree but are dead branches, and there are those branches that abide permanently in the tree or vine. It says if a man abide not in me. So this is talking about someone who is not saved. A saved person is a person who is abiding in Him, and that person is the one who abides permanently. It's the dead branches (Unsaved) that are cast into the fire. These branches do not produce fruit because they are dead.
I can't take Romans 11:21 without considering Verses 19 and 20 also. Why were the natural branches not spared? These branches were broken off because of their unbelief. This is referring to the Jews who rejected their Messiah. No salvation there.
2 Peter 2:20-22 does not tell me they were saved. Having knowledge of the Lord does not mean they were saved. In Verse 21, the emphasis is on what they know. They haven't surrendered their life to Christ. Verse 22 would indicate to me that they were never saved. They had the knowledge of the truth, but never surrendered to Christ.
There has to be a transformation and a change because a pig will always go back. You can wash it, put a bow around its neck, spray it with perfume, and you know what's going to happen. It's going to dive right back into that mud hole again.
Both verses in Hebrews are referring to Jews who were following along with the teachings and were being enlightened to the truth, but never surrendered their life to Christ because of the persecution they would face if they were to do so. Do you realize what it would cost a Jew, even today if they were to give up Judaism to receive Christ as their Messiah? These Jews were being enlightened to the truth but instead of surrendering to Christ, they decided to return back to Judaism.
Thank you for your comments.
1) When someone "truly" believes in Christ Jesus, he automatically receives the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10:44) and is attached to the vine, Jesus Christ. This is nicely explained in the parallel account at:
Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be GRAFFED IN. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.
Notice, the "gentile" believer, like a branch, is graffed into the olive tree because of his faith in Christ Jesus. But, Paul says to fear - why? Because God can "spare not thee" as he "spared not" the unbelieving Jews.
2) The apostle Peter was writing to faithful believing Christians. See 2 Peter 1:1. He is giving them a warning against false prophets. See 2 Peter 2:1. He specifically says about these ones that they "have forsaken the right way". See 2 Peter 2:15. So, at one time, they were on the right way. At 2 Peter 2:20, he says that they "had escaped the pollutions of the world" but, unfortunately, "they are again entangled therein". They have returned to the world.
Thus, they are likened to a dog who has vomited out his vomit and left it for good. But, then, he returns. Or, the sow (pig) who used to role in the mud. Then he leaves the mud and is cleansed. But, unfortunately, he then returns. In a similar way, these ones who believed in Christ Jesus and received the Holy Spirit and were cleansed of their old, sinful ways, have now returned to their sinful practices. Peter says "too bad for them". Jude says they have "died twice". See Jude 14.
3) As for Hebrews, Paul is speaking to believers.
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,". This happened when they believed. See again Acts 10:44.
I invite your further thoughts.
As we know there's several views of Hebrews 6. Here's 4 commonly used.
1) Paul is talking to unconverted Jews that has been enlightened but turned back to Judaism.
2) Paul is talking Jewish believers to urge them towards Maturity, who's mengaling in Judaism, as did the Galatians.
3) Paul is talking to a mix of the 2 just mentioned 1 and 2.
4) He's talking about Jews loosing salvation.
Consider this verse you mentioned-
Hebrews 6:4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
"IF" This verse means salvation, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW YOU AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. "" MEANING YOU HAVE ONE CHANCE IN A LIFETIME TO
GET IT RIIGHT!! ARE YOU ARE FOREVER LOST!! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! To renew the broken commitment, MEANING ONCE YOU COMMIT ONE SIN YOU ARE LOST.
Which Dont fit in the light of these scriptures?
Jude 1:24-25. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
John 10:28-29. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Romans 8:38-39. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thank you for your thoughts.
I agree, and what came to mind is I believe the Lord gave us marriage to communicate his love to the Church.
A husband and wife should model that relationship.
Ephesians 5:22-28. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the HUSBAND IS THE HEAD OF THE WIFE, EVEN AS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
( THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY AND CLEANSE IT WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD, )
THAT HE MIGHT PRESENT IT TO HIMSELF A GLORIOUS CHURCH, NOT HAVING SPOT, OR WRINKLE, OR ANY SUCH THING; BUT THAT IT SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
""THAT GOD MIGHT SANCTIFY AND CLEANSE US!!!""
Mathew 19:5-6. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and THEY TWAIN SHALL BE ONE FLESH?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, LET NOT MAN PUT ASUNDER
These verses remind me of Romans 8:28-39. No separation, No divorce. Nothing can separate us from the love of the Lord.
God bless
So we endeavor by the Grace of God in Jesus Christ to walk more closely in him which often requires denying ourselves of our own wants and ambitions so that we can be more like him, the Lamb of God.
God bless our faithful conversation in peace that has no end.
Thanks and God bless.
Good Question, I believe Paul's Message to the Jews that may have possibly witnessed the crucifixion would not change if he spoke to those who haven't seen, as well as us.
Which leaves each view with the same problem, "Impossible to restore " When l consider verses 7, 8, and 9
I believe he's talking about what accompany salvation. "Maturity and fruitfulness by the Spirit, It's Impossible to achieve that under the Leviticus priesthood. That would be in the context with ch 4 and 5 and the following chapter, ch 7. Let's do a study on verses 6 and 7, I believe they speak of Growth.
Thiese are very tough verses to. e dogmatic, But can for sure rule out loosing salvation.
God bless.
I am a witness though to very many reconsecrations from what appeared be, by their own words, having been overtaken in sin. The very short story and I have my own too, are night and day changes in spirit, actions and love from coming through a repentance and then separation from the willing sin(s). The power of the Holy Spirit in some of these changes is convincing to anyone witnessing at the time. These experiences from separation by sin to repentance and reconsecration are good and edifying and keep the Church of God blameless. My thoughts are open to correction.
Part 1
You've posted a lot of scripture, unfortunately many of the same scripture.
some refers to those were enlightened but not saved, "as many of us today but never coming to Christ for salvation " And some saved but haven't matured as you see here.
" Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
And we see both groups in the verses you stated.
But Like a said and still say it's not talking about SALVATION in Romans 6.
Another verse you keep posting is 2 Peter 2:20 to make a point of losing salvation from a group that never had it. if you want to consider that verse let's start from verse 1.
Read on please. Thanks
Pg. 2
2 Peter 2:1-19. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Pg 3.
2 Peter 2:14-20 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
THESE PEOPLE PETER IS SPEAKING OF HAS HEARD THE GOSPEL BUT IS NOT SAVED.
Let's move on to something else.
God bless.
1) In short, yes, Peter is warning about false prophets who left the true faith and, in short, apostatized. But, the warning that Peter is giving, is to faithful believers, to not follow them and become rejected as they were. Notice.
2 Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall THEY (apostates) with feigned words make merchandise of YOU (true faithful believers): whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."
The apostates want to make the faithful Christians into apostates too. Thus, the warning. Why? Because there is a real serious danger.
2) They were not just enlightened, they were true believers.
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,"
If you are made partakers of the Hold Spirit, you have received God's Holy Spirit and are a Christian. You have to safeguard that or God will take away his Holy Spirit.
Psalms 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and TAKE NOT YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME."
I concur with you, though, in that we can agree to disagree and move on.
Good day.
I agree on moving on,
I just wanted to give my thoughts on your last reference.
Psalms 51:11. CAST ME NOT AWAY FROM THY PRESENCE; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
In the old testament God's presence came amongst them and I believe empowered them.
The spirit even came upon Nebuchadnezzar and many others as instruments. Today he put his Spirit in us.
Hebrews 10:16-19. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
King David was a man after the Lord's own heart but he lost his joy and that's what he's crying out for.
Psalms 51:12. "RESTORE UNTO ME THE JOY" of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psalms 51:14. DELIVER ME FROM BLOODGUILTINESS, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Thanks Michael.
God bless
Unfortunately, I think your missing the point. The point that I was making is that the persons of the Old Testament who did God's will, had God's favor and acceptance. Those who did not do God's will or stopped doing God's will, lost God's favor and acceptance.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Joseph, David, and many others did what God told them to do and had God's favor. Cain, Korah, King Saul, and many others disobeyed God and lost God's favor.
Would Noah have retained God's favor had he stopped building the ark? (No.)
Would Korah have avoided being destroyed by God, had he stopped opposing Moses? (Yes.)
1 Samuel 15:22-23 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in OBEYING THE VOICE OF THE LORD? Behold, TO OBEY is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also REJECTED THEE from being king.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but IF THOU FORSAKE HIM, HE WILL CAST THEE OFF FOR EVER."
The Apostles, writing to the Christians, warned them time and time again to obey God and not to disobey God.
See 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.
Kindly.
I can't agree that when someone truly believes in Christ that they automatically receive the Holy Spirit. Belief alone does not save anyone. James 2:19 seems to indicate that. I took a look at Acts 10:44 as you've asked. But also I have to look at Acts 10:43.
This is where the beauty of the Greek text comes in because it gives me a different perspective. Acts 10:43 in the KJV says, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
There are two things about this verse: The word believes is a present participle which means continuously believing. It never stops. Secondly, the term "in him" is the most common term for believing in Christ. It is EIS AUTON in the Greek text, and it means "into him," a very different meaning than just believing "in Him."
It is a word that expresses surrender so that whosoever continually believes and continually surrenders to Christ, will receive forgiveness of sins. Emphasis on continually. This shows who a saved person is. Their belief and surrender never end. There are a lot of people who believe in Jesus Christ but are void of His indwelling Spirit.
Again, with the branches being broken off, I have to say they were broken off because of unbelief. Gentiles were grafted in, and it says they likewise can be removed just like the Jews were. But this is not talking about a saved individual losing their salvation. A Gentile can also be a dead branch in the tree just like the branches
A branch can be in the vine and not produce fruit. It will be cut off. The branch that remains in the tree will produce fruit continuously because it is feeding off the life source of the tree or vine which is Christ. That branch will never be cut off.
I don't believe Hebrews 6:4 is referring to saved individuals, but to Jews who were following along but never surrendered their life to Christ, as Judas did for 3 years.
Thanks for the conversation.
I think you've answered the question yourself. A Christian must continue to believe in order to be saved. We agree. However, that is our choice. We can continue to believe and trust or we could chose to stop obeying God. It is our choice.
Now, you say if he stops believing God, then he never really was a true Christian. Regardless, what is for sure is that a person has to continue believing and that we do have a choice in that.
Therefore, we have to fight the human sin in us and the appeal of the world that could lead us away from Christ. Example, we could be tempted to start practicing fornication. That is our choice. We either fight the flesh or we give in and fornicate. That is why Paul warned the Hebrew Christians to not give in and fornicate.
Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Maybe Paul was not fully saved. What if he did leave Christ and and became a willful sinner and fornicator? That question we will never know. All we can know for sure is that WE must chose to believe and obey God and continue doing so in order to inherit the blessing of eternal life.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 "I" have fought a good fight, "I" have finished my course, "I" have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Notice, Paul say "I" have fought a good fight. "I" have finished my course. "I" have kept the faith. It required a conscientious decision on Paul's part and a personal struggle to do so. For that reason, he had a crown of righteousness laid up for him.
A "Christian" who practices willful, serious sin will not be saved.
Kindly.
Instead, people will more likely die and be 'asleep' until Christ comes, then will rise and ascend to a place of judgment. Some believe in a waiting place like purgatory, but I think there's ample scriptural evidence that says we'll just be asleep. Even if a thousand years passes, to the person sleeping it will likely only seem like only a second has passed before you wake and be judged.
I don't know of any place in scripture that teaches that a person who belongs to Christ can end up in Hell. No Christian who has been truly born of God's Spirit will ever end up in Hell.
The entire salvation process from start to finish is all of God. The only thing we as human beings can contribute is the sin from which we need to be saved from. Now, once we are saved, at what point does salvation go from God's grace to human works? Are we not saved by God's grace alone according to Ephesians 2:8-9?
If we believe we can lose our salvation, what do we have to do to lose it? Again, if it is something we do to lose it, then it is no longer grace, but works on our part.
If you can please share with me any place in scripture that says Christians can end up in Hell, I am open to checking out what you can show me that teaches that.
There is no such thing as "Once Saved Always Saved", that's straight from Satan himself. God told John Himself what he would do to Christians not keeping the Commandments.
( Rev 2:12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
God Himself is rebuking his Church and threatened to kill them with the sword of his mouth, which signifies Hell. But why would God do such a thing? Because people were not keeping the commandments, eating things sacrificed unto idols, commiting fornication, which are all Laws but since we have been taught not to read the Old Testament, we are ignorant of these things.
Answer me this, If God, Himself, told us that there is no New Thing under the Sun, why do we have a New Testament? We don't, its all one, connected. All the Disciples and Apostles studied and quoted the ,"so called Old Testament". Everything that they preached and taught came straight from there but these people keep us from even looking into it.
Read the remainder of Revelation chapter 2 and 3 for yourself, he's rebuking 6 of the 7 Churches and threated to kill them! These people were indeed followers of Christ but had Hell dangled over there heads. All Praises to the Great I AM!
I'm not here to get in between this discussion. Just wondering who are "these people" who teach and keep people from reading the Old Testament you have stated twice now? Obviously no one here, I know of, as the Old Testament is regularly spoken of and promoted.
There is a New Testament(Covenant). Here's God speaking of it in the Old Testament, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Yes the Old Testament is quoted several hundred times in the New Testament. Though there are many things in the New Testament not in the Old Testament.
Just to be clear to maybe help others you are conversing with. What are God's Laws or God's Commandments you are stating we should follow? All of the 613 Mitzvot laws or just the Ten Commandments?
Jesus Christ is the way.
1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.
Romans 13:8 & 10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
God Bless.
Jobs friends sounded reasonable, but at the end they were corrected by God.
To know to do something and then not do it. I don't think Jesus cared for that.
Like Paul, I got knocked off my high horse, and saw Truth standing in front of me. Let us all remember our beginnings, when we didn't know much at all.
If we forget practical, we are standing close to political. Just a weird thought...
It's very simple. The 10 Commandments.
Jesus said:
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
This is not supposed to be complicated.
Believe and trust what Jesus says.
God Bless
I am going to QUOTE YOU.
It's very simple, the 10 commandments.
Jesus said:
John 14:15
If you love me keep my commandments.
This is not supposed to be complicated.
Believe and trust in what Jesus says.
This is exactly what he told Israel. If they would have keep his commandments they would have remained in a right relationship with God. They would not have needed a NEW COVENANT. Since keeping God's commandments is so simple and easy; WHY NOT JUST DO IT and you will not need the NEW COVENANT; But, history proves this effort fails one hundred percent.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 .... I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES....
Believe and trust in what JESUS SAYS.
( Leviticus 26:18)
Knowing that God warned and punished both houses of Israel for backsliding, adds richness to your point. God said he would punish them seven times (7 x 360 day for a year = 2,520 years) for disobedience.
The house of Israel (10 tribes) were taken captives by Assyria in 721 BC + 2,520 = 1800 Briton, "the isles of the sea"
The house of Judah (3 tribes) were taken captives by Babylon in 604 BC + 2,520 = 1917 Balfour Declaration
Everything in its time, and revealed in one moment.
As I'm sure you've seen my previous posts about this. I'm sorry if my perspective offends you but it is way more vast than just the Ten Commandments. If that was all God wanted us to follow that would be pretty simple. I'm going to put together a list for you of just some things we are to avoid.
Some people think to "love one another" is simple. Actually it can be the hardest thing in life. To put loving others before everything, even your own self.
This is also just a simple list to guide us and is not everything we must repent of or stay away from: evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murder, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, Being filled with all unrighteousness, maliciousness, full of envy, debate, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, despiteful, proud, boasting, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful, uncleanness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, drunkenness/drugs, revellings, lovers of their own selves, boasters, unthankful, unholy, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, love of pleasures more than loving God, sowing discord between bretheren, filthy communication out of your mouth, cursing, anger, etc. Then this posted after several places "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
It is much more vast than just the Ten Commandments. This is why God has Blessed us to receive the Holy Ghost and we are to live after the Spirit of Christ in us. Not after the flesh. Which we are in these bodies until our journey here is over. Our fight is to war against what is evil(in the flesh) and do good(live after the Spirit). Stated at the end of Galatians if we strive to produce good fruit of the Spirit against such there is no law.
God Bless.
You stated a long list of sins that can be committed.....the list is probably much longer....and I do understand your point. You make a good point, and I also do believe that any sin committed can be attributed to one of the 10 Commandments in "one form or fashion".
I think most christians will agree our goal is to live as sin free as possible, but when we fail... we need to ask for forgiveness and try a little harder. God surely knows if we are trying or not.
In summary, I will say that disregarding any of the 10 Commandments will most surely be problematic for many.
Many if not most Christians today just throw the 4th Commandment in the trash....in my opinion not a good way to start a successful journey to heaven.
I don't want to follow the crowds......
Matthew 7:14
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Why does Jesus say this? Does he mean it? I think he does, and I believe him!
I want to be with the FEW THERE THAT FIND IT!
God Bless