Hi Chris again ,i think im going to be very cheeky now so i ask you to please forgive me ,you asked Earl what he would say to people who have died and come back or experienced near death experiences , i personally wouldnt say anything to them ,if thats what they or anyone else wants to believe thats fine by me ,i am convinced in my own mind of my beliefs but i honestly dont feel the need to cinvince any one else , if some one asks me what i believe i will tell them but if others dont believe what i do im ok with that ,to me most of the time ,the Bible is very simple and straight forward ,it hasnt always been so but i just keep reading and praying and meditating on things and im convinced of my conclusions .I dont go on any other religious sites ,you tube etc ,i know what i know and im ok if others dont agree ,may God continue to bless you and all yours .
As I see this comment was directed towards me I shall respond kindly.
I very much understand that people have their own beliefs. I respect that as even some of my brothers in Christ do not agree with everything I state. I don't condemn anyone. Though truth is what is most important to me. Please don't take that in that I think I'm smart. I am a humble person.
I myself have gone through believing that "everyone is to be saved" in the end. Thinking in the same sense of in your other post in that "God is love". As I've stated to Earl this would not bother me as whatever God's Will is I'm for that. Though that perspective did not hold up very long. As Christ teaches about "saved and unsaved" over ten times. Using statements of eternal punishment and eternal life. Eternal being the same Greek word "aionios" meaning just that in both cases.
I just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isn't, what wrong have we done in that many have come to repentance seeing these things being taught in the Holy Scriptures. Maybe making some be better people by fearing God as we are taught to do and this is the beginning of wisdom.
Though stating to people there is no hell, or eternal damnation/torment, and there really is. Maybe that made that person not care what they did and, live in sin and iniquity, not caring about anything or anyone but themselves. Ruining their chance at Salvation and eternal life. I would feel really bad.
As I just go by what the Scripture teaches and has been for thousands of years. Me bringing up people who have been dead and experienced things like paradise/heaven even meeting Jesus Christ also. Just what my journey has lead me to research and believe more in what the Holy Bible teaches.
I agree there is a hell. I believe it because the bible says it!
To teach otherwise can be dangerous, It sounds similar to Satan discrediting Gods word when Satan deceived Eve.
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Genesis 3:4.
And here's scriptural proof they don't just cease from existing.
1st of all the resurrection, and the term we know as the 2nd death.
Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a RESURRECTION of the dead, ( both of the just and UNJUST. )
What's the point in raising the unjust just to send them right back to the grave?
Matthew 25:41, 46 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...42..43..44..
...And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT:
but the righteous into life eternal.
Hell was created for the devil and his angels but his children will go there also, and to take note,
YOU CAN'T WEEP AND NASH TEETH IF YOU NO LONGER EXIST, NEITHER CAN YOU ENDURE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT.
Matthew 13:42-43. AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE: ""THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Revelation 20:14-15. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.
HERE IT SEEMS TO BE A RELOCATION, AND DEATH ( AND HELL IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE!! )
When the restrainer is taken out of the way
( Thes 2:7 )
you see how evil men really is. War against God ect.
Revelation 16:9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Hi Richard in Christ ,im so sorry ive created a bit of havoc ! I shall try and get back on track with you if i may , 'everyone is to be saved ' ,im so sorry but i never said that and i wouldnt as i dont believe that ,also 'i just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isnt what wrong have we done '? Math ch15 v7-9 and Mrk ch 7 v1-9 and Rev ch22 v18&19 . The 1st commamdment is to LOVE God not fear him 2nd Tim ch1 v7 ,1st John ch4 v18 and Rev ch21 v8 ,also as a Christian ,what would you say to some one of a different faith ,it doesnt matter which one ,if they told you that they had had a near death or actual death experience that fully validated substantiated and confirmed all their religious beliefs ? I think ive rambled on enough now ,hope you can understand me ok ,im not confident that im always able to express my self clearly ,sorry if im a bit jumbled ,i always know what i want to say but when i read it back it never sounds ok to me .
No need to be sorry, you have created no havoc. As the "everyone is to be saved" part I don't think I stated you said that. Just that I went through thinking that a while ago. Just in line with "no hell" which is what I think you believe.
About the couple verses you stated for me as an answer to the first analogy I wrote "I just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isn't what wrong have we done" which is Christ quoting Isaiah 29:13. Which I can't quite link that to this. Then quoting the end of Revelation about changing the prophesies of the Bible. That is why I believe there is a place of eternal torment or "hell". Because the Bible says so. As you didn't reply to the second analogy in that "if people don't believe in "hell" though it really exists". How this could be dangerous to others in my eyes.
As Adam gave a good reply about to "fear God". This teaching is throughout the Bible as we are also to love Him. Say how you would love your dad but if you do something wrong you may be whipped for it and scared to know it's coming. Though this is much higher as with God. A couple more verses for you Psalms 34:9, Psalms 115:13, Proverbs 3:7, Luke 1:50, Romans 3:18, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Hebrews 12:28, Revelation 19:5.
As I have over forty verses to love God.
To the last statement of "if they told you that they had had a near death or actual death experience that fully validated substantiated and confirmed all their religious beliefs ?" Well, as there are hundreds probably thousands of NDE's and some have no experience at all. I have never heard of someone meeting Buddah, Allah, or Muhammed etc. Though I have seen people converted to Christ from those other religions. Even Atheists who didn't believe. As there are many and all are personal and unique. There are many things that connect with the teachings of the Scriptures.
Hi Richard in Christ , im very sorry if you dont understand my refference to your words : i just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isnt what wrong are we doing ? and Jesus saying : But in vain do they worship me ,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men ,and from revelation : For i testify unto every man that heareth the words if the prophecy of this book , If any man shall add unto these things ,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book . Im very sorry if you cant see how your words are connected to these references .
No problem, please don't take any of my replies harshly. We are conversing peacefully. Saying I don't understand why you quoted those verses to what I stated is that the Holy Bible teaches of a place of eternal torment, or simply hell, and this is not my own teaching(or commandment of men). It is from the Word of God. Also the verses from Revelation. A place of eternal torment is from the Scriptures. Those two contexts of questions was just to show how one way would do no wrong, in the end, and the other way would lead to damnation. The reason I believe in a "hell". Because of the Holy Bible.
Here's other verses not in the NT about this "place". Just to show there are records of this before the NT. From the Book of Enoch.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
62.11 And the Angels of Punishment will take them so that they may repay them for the wrong that they did to His children and to His chosen ones.
63.10 Then they will say to them: "Our souls are sated with possessions gained through iniquity, but they do not prevent our going down into the flames of the torment of Sheol."
108.4 And there I saw something like a cloud, which could not be discerned, for because of its depth I was not able to look into it. And the flames of a fire I saw, burning brightly, and things like bright mountains revolved and shook from side to side.
108.5 And I asked one of the Holy Angels, who were with me, and I said to him: "What is this bright place? For there is no sky, but only the flames of a burning fire, and the sounds of crying, and weeping, and moaning, and severe pain."
108.6 And he said to me: "This place which you see; here will be thrown the spirits of the sinners, blasphemers, those who do evil, and of those who alter everything that the Lord has spoken through the mouths of the prophets. "
In reply to " The 1st commandment is to LOVE God not fear him"
The Bible says many times to fear God. The Bible doesn't say to "not" fear God as you put it. 1 John 4:18 seems to suggest love and fear and opposites. Maybe these are mutually exclusive when it comes to how we treat others, but maybe God in an exception. The Bible clearly says to love God and clearly says to fear God. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that it's both. Some say the fear means a high level of respect rather than a petrified fear. If anyone wants to compare the original Hebrew or Greek to see if its the same word or not, that might be helpful.
Proverbs 9:10, Ephesians 5:21, Jeremiah 32:39, Luke 12:5, Leviticus 25:17.
Just thought I'd look into the words for "fear" as you stated. The Hebrew seems to use two different words that are slightly different though close to the same word. "Yare" as "fearing; morally reverent, afraid" and "yirah" as "fear (also used as infinitive); morally reverence fear, terror, fearing, awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear), fear (of God), respect, piety, revered".
The Greek words are "phobos" as "alarm or fright, fear, dread, terror, that which strikes terror, reverence for one's husband" and "phobeo" as "to frighten that is (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of that is revere, to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience" simply.
What I was hoping to compare is the word for fear in 1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear) vs. Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell).
So, I found Bible Hub has a Greek interlinear comparison and found the following:
1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear): fear = Phobos/phobon (fear, terror, alarm; object or cause of fear; reverence, respect.
Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell): fear = phobthte (to frighten, be alarmed by. By analogy, to be in awe of; Revere.)
It appears to be the same root word, but just like in English its common to have different meanings for the same word, like the word 'conceive'. So, I believe at bare minimum fearing God means to be in upmost awe of and reverence. The context of being afraid of the one who can send you to hell seems to indicate a dose of real fear as well, maybe similar to a child being afraid when they risk doing something wrong and fear punishment by their parents, but I think this is different than fear/terror that perhaps is used in 1 John 4:18, that perfect love will get rid of that.
Interested if anyone else has another perspective on this.
Nice. That site I usually use for paralleling verses from different versions of the Bible.
I agree with your perception on the "fear of God". When you are with the Lord and have a fear/reverence and pure love to Him. Being His precious child. Giving yourself to Him. There is nothing else to fear. Not even the devil himself.
Hi Sacha. Since you haven't attached your comment to the original thread, I'm unsure what you're referring to. I cannot remember ever writing to Earl or anyone about those who have died & come back to life or experienced near death experiences. If you can find that thread, I might be able to respond properly.
Oh good grief ! Please forgive me ,it was Richard in Christ not you Chris ,im sooooo sorry ,l do have reading glassess ! I must remember to put them on occasionally ! Im so sorry .
As I see this comment was directed towards me I shall respond kindly.
I very much understand that people have their own beliefs. I respect that as even some of my brothers in Christ do not agree with everything I state. I don't condemn anyone. Though truth is what is most important to me. Please don't take that in that I think I'm smart. I am a humble person.
I myself have gone through believing that "everyone is to be saved" in the end. Thinking in the same sense of in your other post in that "God is love". As I've stated to Earl this would not bother me as whatever God's Will is I'm for that. Though that perspective did not hold up very long. As Christ teaches about "saved and unsaved" over ten times. Using statements of eternal punishment and eternal life. Eternal being the same Greek word "aionios" meaning just that in both cases.
I just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isn't, what wrong have we done in that many have come to repentance seeing these things being taught in the Holy Scriptures. Maybe making some be better people by fearing God as we are taught to do and this is the beginning of wisdom.
Though stating to people there is no hell, or eternal damnation/torment, and there really is. Maybe that made that person not care what they did and, live in sin and iniquity, not caring about anything or anyone but themselves. Ruining their chance at Salvation and eternal life. I would feel really bad.
As I just go by what the Scripture teaches and has been for thousands of years. Me bringing up people who have been dead and experienced things like paradise/heaven even meeting Jesus Christ also. Just what my journey has lead me to research and believe more in what the Holy Bible teaches.
Hope all is well Sacha.
God Bless.
I agree there is a hell. I believe it because the bible says it!
To teach otherwise can be dangerous, It sounds similar to Satan discrediting Gods word when Satan deceived Eve.
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Genesis 3:4.
And here's scriptural proof they don't just cease from existing.
1st of all the resurrection, and the term we know as the 2nd death.
Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a RESURRECTION of the dead, ( both of the just and UNJUST. )
What's the point in raising the unjust just to send them right back to the grave?
Matthew 25:41, 46 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...42..43..44..
...And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT:
but the righteous into life eternal.
Hell was created for the devil and his angels but his children will go there also, and to take note,
YOU CAN'T WEEP AND NASH TEETH IF YOU NO LONGER EXIST, NEITHER CAN YOU ENDURE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT.
Matthew 13:42-43. AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE: ""THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Revelation 20:14-15. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.
HERE IT SEEMS TO BE A RELOCATION, AND DEATH ( AND HELL IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE!! )
When the restrainer is taken out of the way
( Thes 2:7 )
you see how evil men really is. War against God ect.
Revelation 16:9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
They'll be just like their father the Devil.
No repentance. Forever tormented.
The scripture is clear.
GB.
God Bless you.
Richard..
No need to be sorry, you have created no havoc. As the "everyone is to be saved" part I don't think I stated you said that. Just that I went through thinking that a while ago. Just in line with "no hell" which is what I think you believe.
About the couple verses you stated for me as an answer to the first analogy I wrote "I just really see it as if we say there is a hell and there really isn't what wrong have we done" which is Christ quoting Isaiah 29:13. Which I can't quite link that to this. Then quoting the end of Revelation about changing the prophesies of the Bible. That is why I believe there is a place of eternal torment or "hell". Because the Bible says so. As you didn't reply to the second analogy in that "if people don't believe in "hell" though it really exists". How this could be dangerous to others in my eyes.
As Adam gave a good reply about to "fear God". This teaching is throughout the Bible as we are also to love Him. Say how you would love your dad but if you do something wrong you may be whipped for it and scared to know it's coming. Though this is much higher as with God. A couple more verses for you Psalms 34:9, Psalms 115:13, Proverbs 3:7, Luke 1:50, Romans 3:18, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Hebrews 12:28, Revelation 19:5.
As I have over forty verses to love God.
To the last statement of "if they told you that they had had a near death or actual death experience that fully validated substantiated and confirmed all their religious beliefs ?" Well, as there are hundreds probably thousands of NDE's and some have no experience at all. I have never heard of someone meeting Buddah, Allah, or Muhammed etc. Though I have seen people converted to Christ from those other religions. Even Atheists who didn't believe. As there are many and all are personal and unique. There are many things that connect with the teachings of the Scriptures.
In kindness.
God Bless.
No problem, please don't take any of my replies harshly. We are conversing peacefully. Saying I don't understand why you quoted those verses to what I stated is that the Holy Bible teaches of a place of eternal torment, or simply hell, and this is not my own teaching(or commandment of men). It is from the Word of God. Also the verses from Revelation. A place of eternal torment is from the Scriptures. Those two contexts of questions was just to show how one way would do no wrong, in the end, and the other way would lead to damnation. The reason I believe in a "hell". Because of the Holy Bible.
Here's other verses not in the NT about this "place". Just to show there are records of this before the NT. From the Book of Enoch.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
62.11 And the Angels of Punishment will take them so that they may repay them for the wrong that they did to His children and to His chosen ones.
63.10 Then they will say to them: "Our souls are sated with possessions gained through iniquity, but they do not prevent our going down into the flames of the torment of Sheol."
108.4 And there I saw something like a cloud, which could not be discerned, for because of its depth I was not able to look into it. And the flames of a fire I saw, burning brightly, and things like bright mountains revolved and shook from side to side.
108.5 And I asked one of the Holy Angels, who were with me, and I said to him: "What is this bright place? For there is no sky, but only the flames of a burning fire, and the sounds of crying, and weeping, and moaning, and severe pain."
108.6 And he said to me: "This place which you see; here will be thrown the spirits of the sinners, blasphemers, those who do evil, and of those who alter everything that the Lord has spoken through the mouths of the prophets. "
Amen
The Bible says many times to fear God. The Bible doesn't say to "not" fear God as you put it. 1 John 4:18 seems to suggest love and fear and opposites. Maybe these are mutually exclusive when it comes to how we treat others, but maybe God in an exception. The Bible clearly says to love God and clearly says to fear God. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that it's both. Some say the fear means a high level of respect rather than a petrified fear. If anyone wants to compare the original Hebrew or Greek to see if its the same word or not, that might be helpful.
Proverbs 9:10, Ephesians 5:21, Jeremiah 32:39, Luke 12:5, Leviticus 25:17.
Just thought I'd look into the words for "fear" as you stated. The Hebrew seems to use two different words that are slightly different though close to the same word. "Yare" as "fearing; morally reverent, afraid" and "yirah" as "fear (also used as infinitive); morally reverence fear, terror, fearing, awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear), fear (of God), respect, piety, revered".
The Greek words are "phobos" as "alarm or fright, fear, dread, terror, that which strikes terror, reverence for one's husband" and "phobeo" as "to frighten that is (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of that is revere, to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience" simply.
What I was hoping to compare is the word for fear in 1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear) vs. Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell).
So, I found Bible Hub has a Greek interlinear comparison and found the following:
1 John 4:18 (perfect love cast out fear): fear = Phobos/phobon (fear, terror, alarm; object or cause of fear; reverence, respect.
Luke 12:5 (fear him... who can cast you to hell): fear = phobthte (to frighten, be alarmed by. By analogy, to be in awe of; Revere.)
It appears to be the same root word, but just like in English its common to have different meanings for the same word, like the word 'conceive'. So, I believe at bare minimum fearing God means to be in upmost awe of and reverence. The context of being afraid of the one who can send you to hell seems to indicate a dose of real fear as well, maybe similar to a child being afraid when they risk doing something wrong and fear punishment by their parents, but I think this is different than fear/terror that perhaps is used in 1 John 4:18, that perfect love will get rid of that.
Interested if anyone else has another perspective on this.
Nice. That site I usually use for paralleling verses from different versions of the Bible.
I agree with your perception on the "fear of God". When you are with the Lord and have a fear/reverence and pure love to Him. Being His precious child. Giving yourself to Him. There is nothing else to fear. Not even the devil himself.
God Bless.
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