I'd like to add some commentary concerning Jesus' ministry. The 70th week is split evenly, and over time, between Jesus and Anti-Christ: each having 42 months (3.5 years) power. Jesus' ministry was the 1st half of the week, 42 months, and was cut off, crucified, then in the end-times, satan gets the 2nd half of the week, 42 months.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
We also see that the 2 witnesses (The 144,000, The woman/church) are persecuted by by satan for 42 months, Revelation 12:4
These hostilities takes place between the 6th and 7th trumpets, during anti-Christs rule.
There is no such thing as a 7 year great tribulation, satan only gets 42 months.
Darren, This is out of love, many people study prophecies and it can suck you in like treasure hunting. One lead leads to another and in the next clue you will have the answer. I do not know what your mission is but what posts I have read of yours seem based on total speculations other people have made that you want to prove or surpass them. In Matthew 24 The first thing Jesus said to them was "Take heed lest any man deceive you:" One meaning of this is to be taken out of the way. We can be taken out of the way and be like a dog chasing our tail becoming useless to the body of Christ.
In your post, you have taken the prophecy given to Daniel, the 70 weeks that has already been misinterpreted, they put the last week at the end of days, creating the seven weeks of tribulation with the rapture of the church, and more, but the worst, it has millions of people looking for something that is not coming. But you're saying the antichrist has the second half, how can that be if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled already.
It would take too many words to show why this prophecy has been fulfilled but maybe simple math will show it was fulfilled. Take Vs. 25 " from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:" So, when the Messiah shows up is 69 weeks. John baptizes Jesus and His ministry starts and it is clear Jesus was here 3 years, His disciples the last 3 confirming the new covenant to the lost sheep of Israel. The Messiah shows up on the 69th week so anything after this is in the 70th week. Vs. 26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:" This verse does not include the 7 weeks, too long to explain but simple logic, the Messiah came in the 69th week so he could not have been crucified before he showed up. This is short but I hope it makes sense or at least inspires one to search and study for the truth. Ron
Your time line is not accurate according to events. Prophesy doesn't read in a consecutive linear. This prophesy is split up between thousands of years. Jesus' 42 months corresponds with anti-Christ's 42 months, and set side by side, they equate to the last week. I don't expect you to understand it, now. Thanks for your side of it.
In the midst of the week, Messiah was cut off at Calvary.
Hey Darren, thanks for answering back, we do agree on the 7 years of tribulation is 3 years or 42 months. You may agree or not, this starts when Satan is cast out in Revelation 12. Many think Satan was cast out long ago but we see in Job he still has access to heaven, in Rev. 12 we see he no longer has access to heaven and they are rejoicing in heaven. Satan (dragon) then gives his power, and his seat, and great authority to the beast, then the great tribulation starts. I'm sorry I don't know where the thousands of years come from.
Back to Daniel in vs. 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." The he does not change. The same he that shall confirm is the same he shall make it desolate, the scriptures show this is Jesus not a antichrist.
When Jesus was crucified on the cross He caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (the old Levitical covenant animal sacrifices) because Jesus is the final sacrifice. Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Jesus through his disciples He confirmed for the second half of the week. Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The 70 weeks ended when Peter had his dream and Paul was sent out.
I would like to continue with this if we both agree to study and be open to the truth. Ron
Ezekiel 21:12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
It is upon MY people. 'Thy thigh' is a reference to Jacob's time of trouble and,
Isaiah 24:15-17 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea. From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously. Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
I agree when satan's kicked out of heaven and that initiates the 6th trumpet, 2nd woe, day of the Lord. For reference, here are a few describing the same event from different angles: Isaiah 13, Isaiah 21:1-9, Isaiah 24, Isaiah 47, Ezekiel 21:1-24, Ezekiel 38:1-17, Joel 2:1-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelation 18. This battle is over in an hour.
Daniel 9:27 I see what you are saying about the language, the dualism. At this point, I need to examine other evidence surrounding this verse, compared to other scriptures to better pin point what is going on.
Right off the bat, it is well known that the day of the Lord sees Jesus coming like a thief with His northern army to lay the land desolate. God states that anti-Christ's army is His army, Joel 2: 10-11
Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: Ezekiel 21:1-7 "MY sword will go out of HIS sheath".
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, Isaiah 13: 6 This characteristic of the strike is synonymous with the man of sin, spoiler at noonday, anti-Christs.
God furbishes a sword and places it in the slayers (anti-Christ's) hand, Ezekiel 21:9-12 Russia has God-like weaponry, God has blessed Russia's scientists. Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, Ezekiel 21:12
The 70 weeks is a classic Bible mystery. I will study it again. The way I explained it to you makes sense to me considering the 6th trumpet lasts 42 months. I have no strong convictions towards it, and would evolve my mind if I was presented a sound concept. As it stands, it is a side bar to my love of the Lord and His prophets.
Hey Darren, This may take a bit, to study all the scripture you have put out there. First, I admire your passion whether I agree or not with what you post. We agree Satan casting out starts the 42 months great tribulation but I do not agree this initiated the 6th trumpet the 2nd woe. If we read Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 it was the third woe the final woe. Rev.11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation is hard to grasp because it is not written in chronological order. Some of the same events are revealed differently in the seals, trumpets, and bowls.
I will study the verses you posted and get back. Ron
One more point about the 6th trumpet which makes your notion not worth pursuing. When the devil is kicked out of heaven to earth, war starts immediately. Why? Because the devil only has a short time, 42 months, he placed the abomination the makes desolate, subdues his enemies to rule the world. Our leaders on earth will have planned this battle out, they will be ready to oblige the devil upon his arrival. Better run through the jungle, and don't look back to see.
I'm not laughing at you, but it's so darn funny. The length you went to to let me know you were quoting the 2nd woe is past. You were reading the post 2nd woe. You got ahead of yourself, buddy. This is all so woeful.
As a credit to you and your brand of Christianity, you were very easy on me. That last part is priceless about 'hard to grasp', I mean you could have come down on me like a....oh, the 2nd woe. Ah haha. Sorry.
Missiles targeting N. America, Europe/allies will initiate the 6th trumpet (war) on earth. The allegories and metaphorical language describe what happens; the verses I gave you stem from the 6th trumpet, the closest scriptures to it.
I don't need to know the precise details about the devil being booted out of heaven when there's 16+ prophets in my head. I have a plethora of Biblical resources available that afford me resolve. I am satisfied knowing the the day of the Lord starts at the 6th trumpet, and anything beyond that is splitting hairs.
I have a feeling Revelation 6:12 will trigger the invasion of Israel. The same earthquake spot from the crucification, and 70 AD Roman invasion. The 6th seal leads into the 7th trumpet. The timing will be impeccable.
Darren, may the spirit grace you with his wisdom and his knowledge.
no part of revelation is going to occur in the physical sense.
revelation is spiritual warfare for the kingdom of heaven.
revelation is completely symbolic.
isaiah 9:5 now every (natural) battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this (spiritual battle) shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
isaiah 9:19 ....and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire....
isaiah 4:4 when the lord (a consuming fire hebrews 12:29) shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of (new) zion, and shall have purged the blood of (new) jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgement and the spirit of burning.
luke 12:49 i am come to send fire on the earth; and what be i (the fire), if it (the fire) be kindled already?
matthew 4:11 ....he shall baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire;
isaiah 9:18 for wickedness burneth as the fire (our god is a consuming fire).....
isaiah 10:16 .... and under his glory (us) he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
isaiah 24:15 wherefore glorify ye the lord in the fires ....
isaiah 31:9 ....whose fire is in (new) zion, and his furnace in (new) jerusalem.
isaiah 33:14 .....who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burning?
where the fire is never quenched (our god is a consuming fire)
isaiah 42:25 therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle; and it (the battle) hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it (the battle) burned him, and he laid it not to heart.
ezekiel 5:2 thou shall burn with fire a third part in the midst of the (new jerusalem, christ in you).....
zachariah 13:9 and i will bring the third part through the fire ....
revelation 8:1-13
revelation 9:18 by these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire...brimstone...smoke....
Thank you for replying; these issues need to be discussed openly and readily.
Your premise is that Revelation, in conjunction with the prophets, is completely symbolic and won't manifest itself here on earth.
The Bible was penned for us, not heaven. If prophesies concerning warfare are going to be fulfilled in Spiritual heaven, and not earth, what's the point of our existence? How are we to overcome, make it to the end if the lessons are not in our physical realm? You may think it is symbolic, but the fact of the matter is down here on earth we are always on the brink. We've had 2 world wars etc, and are staring down the barrel of a 3rd.
So, why do I sense war is coming; the warning lights flash on my map. If you are correct in your approach, how is this madness ever going to reach fruition for the people of earth?
I have read what has been written, and have come to the conclusion that modern day Israel will be baptized by fire. We have a little ways to go, the 6th seal events will come to pass before the day of trouble. When time ends, the mystery will be finished, and both of us will understand what it was all about.
Darren, may the Spirit grace you with his wisdom and his understanding.
I'm not sure you understand the kingdom of heaven.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.
Luke 20: 35-36 But they who shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(vs 36) Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Revelations symbolizes how you obtain that world and the judgement the saints will bring upon the earth.
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written: this honour has all his saints.
Revelation 2:26-27 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
(vs 27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers, even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 3:9 Behold I will make of them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews (circumcised in the heart), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Those in the kingdom of heaven are those who are going to rule over the earth symbolized in Revelation and explained in the prophets.
At the resurrection, we know about those dead in Christ, and about those who make it to the end, everyone is lifted up at the same time. I like the details of the saints below, do you know them?
-Like these:
Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
-Who are their "fellow servants" also their brethren that were killed like they were?
These:
Revelation 11:7-12 .........(12)"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
The 144,000 are the two candlesticks and the 2 olive trees that stand before God. They finished their testimony and are killed. They ascended to heaven in a cloud at the 7th trumpet to join Christ.
Explain to me in a paragraph exactly what you are saying about Revelation, heaven and earth? Above and below during the 6th-7th trumpets? What do we do if it starts to get bomby outside? Can you conceptualize your thoughts to what you personally envision, and share that? The only scripture you listed that supports your stance is John 18:36, but you are taking Jesus out of context; He is speaking about His current reality, he's restrained. The rest of the scriptures carry little weight to substantiate a claim.
You claim this:
"no part of revelation is going to occur in the physical sense.
revelation is spiritual warfare for the kingdom of heaven.
revelation is completely symbolic."
I always counted the 7th trumpet "saints" as those resurrected in Christ. The earthly army of a transfigured Jesus Christ in His bright glory taking over the earth. It doesn't seem symbolic for God to have to go to all these lengths to do exactly as he has written, but he does so to fulfill prophesy, on earth. Earl, I'm not persuading you to change your mind, I'm just glad to be talking to you.
Why would God promise David that he would never lack a king sitting on his throne till Christ comes if the earth isn't going to be rewarded, renewed. Jesus Christ has an earthly throne to come down to.
"Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel." 1 Kings 9:5
Without the 3 evil spirits, we can be born again, saints.
Looking forward to your rundown of this age.
"no part of revelation is going to occur in the physical sense.
revelation is spiritual warfare for the kingdom of heaven.
It's great to have the anabaptist wing in the house. This is part of God's kingdom, but not what I'd want to be resurrected into if you know what I mean.
Everything current will pass. God will create anew.
Revelation 21:1-5
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
See you at the 7th trumpet: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 11:15
Hi darren ,again with refference to Isaiah ch14 v 2 ,i just happen to be reading Isaiah and im up to ch61 and thought that v4-6 reminded me of ch 14 v 2 ? What do you think ?
When Christ returns, the resurrected will spend a length of time repairing and healing the earth. I do not think "slavery" as we know it will be the mode of operation.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." Ezekiel 39:11-13 The house of Israel pulls all the weight.
When my dad, devout OT lover, was on his death bed, I asked him where is he going after he dies? He said "back into the universe."
Hi darren ,i dont think we will return to any form of slavery either ! Perish the thought ! When i was little i asked my half jewish grandmother who the devil was and she told me to go and look in the mirror ! I dont think she was being sarcastic but maybe i had been a pain that day .
That is awful, abuse. Your grandmother must have been in a lot of pain.
I have this theory about the cause of personal anguish: your memory. It reminds you of everything. Ever have a bad luck streak in sleeping. Toss and turn, sing the dumbest songs. Go to work crazy?
Darren ,yes you are correct about memories ,i think this is one of the reasons faith is sooo important ,we have to belive 100 per cent that our sins are forgiven ,if we dont we can drive ourselves crazy with guilt ,i havent murdered anyone but before i was baptized i did a few things im very ashamed of ,knowing that i have been forgiven helps me not to torture myself over them ,also we remember all the times others have sinned against us ,i find its usually quite easy to forgive but the memory of the hurt some one has caused me can still be painfull even after ive forgiven them ,i have to make a conscieous effort to put past sins out of my mind ,those that i have commited and those that were done to me ,ive been forgiven and i have forgiven but sometimes the scars still sting a bit !
The persistence of memory. That voice needs to be caged. Once in a while, I will remember a beloved dog I owned, and feel my heart double pump.
I found a scientific solution, you will laugh, but it works: If I gently tap, with my left hand fingers (slap), the top front, left side of my head, a 2" wide x 3" back section from hairline, and lightly tap my head 10 times, the vibration of my skull manipulates the brain waves, freeing me of the thought. The taps stimulate analytical left brain, shutting down right brain creativity. I'll be giving a presentation at the Cleveland Clinic next week.....Ah haha. Don't knock yourself out.
Please ,dont get me started thinking about my cat ,i shall be snotty and tearfull all day ,your suggestion sounds feasable but im worried about this shutting down of the right half if my brain ,at my age i need it all ! I will be in cleveland tonight ! Cleveland england ! Its a small world ,i suppose its good to remember things ,good and bad ,God teaches us through our experiences and though we may wish to forget some of them we need to remember the lessons He teaches us .
Oh no darren ! She wasnt abusive i promise ! Hahaha ! I wasnt looking for sympathy i promise ! She genuinely didnt belive in a 'devil' as such but belived that we had the choice to be obedient to God or disobedient and when we disobeyed Him we were the devil ,maybe im not explaining it properly but i promise she just didnt want me blaming some one else for my naughtiness ,when i was a child i knew a lot of adults who didnt belive in the devil as an external being who tempted us into sinning ,my grandad who had been a p.o.w. would say theres nothing so evil as people ,im inclined to agree but thats a different can of worms i dont feel like opening just now .
There isn't. However, check this out:
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," Luk 3:23
Theologians believe, based on the number of Passover celebrations Jesus celebrated with His disciples, that His active ministry was 3 1/2 years.
Hence 33 1/2 at His death.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
We also see that the 2 witnesses (The 144,000, The woman/church) are persecuted by by satan for 42 months, Revelation 12:4
These hostilities takes place between the 6th and 7th trumpets, during anti-Christs rule.
There is no such thing as a 7 year great tribulation, satan only gets 42 months.
In your post, you have taken the prophecy given to Daniel, the 70 weeks that has already been misinterpreted, they put the last week at the end of days, creating the seven weeks of tribulation with the rapture of the church, and more, but the worst, it has millions of people looking for something that is not coming. But you're saying the antichrist has the second half, how can that be if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled already.
It would take too many words to show why this prophecy has been fulfilled but maybe simple math will show it was fulfilled. Take Vs. 25 " from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:" So, when the Messiah shows up is 69 weeks. John baptizes Jesus and His ministry starts and it is clear Jesus was here 3 years, His disciples the last 3 confirming the new covenant to the lost sheep of Israel. The Messiah shows up on the 69th week so anything after this is in the 70th week. Vs. 26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:" This verse does not include the 7 weeks, too long to explain but simple logic, the Messiah came in the 69th week so he could not have been crucified before he showed up. This is short but I hope it makes sense or at least inspires one to search and study for the truth. Ron
In the midst of the week, Messiah was cut off at Calvary.
Back to Daniel in vs. 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." The he does not change. The same he that shall confirm is the same he shall make it desolate, the scriptures show this is Jesus not a antichrist.
When Jesus was crucified on the cross He caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (the old Levitical covenant animal sacrifices) because Jesus is the final sacrifice. Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Jesus through his disciples He confirmed for the second half of the week. Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The 70 weeks ended when Peter had his dream and Paul was sent out.
I would like to continue with this if we both agree to study and be open to the truth. Ron
It is upon MY people. 'Thy thigh' is a reference to Jacob's time of trouble and,
Isaiah 24:15-17 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea. From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously. Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
I agree when satan's kicked out of heaven and that initiates the 6th trumpet, 2nd woe, day of the Lord. For reference, here are a few describing the same event from different angles: Isaiah 13, Isaiah 21:1-9, Isaiah 24, Isaiah 47, Ezekiel 21:1-24, Ezekiel 38:1-17, Joel 2:1-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelation 18. This battle is over in an hour.
Daniel 9:27 I see what you are saying about the language, the dualism. At this point, I need to examine other evidence surrounding this verse, compared to other scriptures to better pin point what is going on.
Right off the bat, it is well known that the day of the Lord sees Jesus coming like a thief with His northern army to lay the land desolate. God states that anti-Christ's army is His army, Joel 2: 10-11
Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: Ezekiel 21:1-7 "MY sword will go out of HIS sheath".
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, Isaiah 13: 6 This characteristic of the strike is synonymous with the man of sin, spoiler at noonday, anti-Christs.
God furbishes a sword and places it in the slayers (anti-Christ's) hand, Ezekiel 21:9-12 Russia has God-like weaponry, God has blessed Russia's scientists. Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, Ezekiel 21:12
The 70 weeks is a classic Bible mystery. I will study it again. The way I explained it to you makes sense to me considering the 6th trumpet lasts 42 months. I have no strong convictions towards it, and would evolve my mind if I was presented a sound concept. As it stands, it is a side bar to my love of the Lord and His prophets.
I will be around to reprove.
Revelation is hard to grasp because it is not written in chronological order. Some of the same events are revealed differently in the seals, trumpets, and bowls.
I will study the verses you posted and get back. Ron
One more point about the 6th trumpet which makes your notion not worth pursuing. When the devil is kicked out of heaven to earth, war starts immediately. Why? Because the devil only has a short time, 42 months, he placed the abomination the makes desolate, subdues his enemies to rule the world. Our leaders on earth will have planned this battle out, they will be ready to oblige the devil upon his arrival. Better run through the jungle, and don't look back to see.
I'm not laughing at you, but it's so darn funny. The length you went to to let me know you were quoting the 2nd woe is past. You were reading the post 2nd woe. You got ahead of yourself, buddy. This is all so woeful.
As a credit to you and your brand of Christianity, you were very easy on me. That last part is priceless about 'hard to grasp', I mean you could have come down on me like a....oh, the 2nd woe. Ah haha. Sorry.
Where ever you go, may the spirit follow.
Darren
I don't need to know the precise details about the devil being booted out of heaven when there's 16+ prophets in my head. I have a plethora of Biblical resources available that afford me resolve. I am satisfied knowing the the day of the Lord starts at the 6th trumpet, and anything beyond that is splitting hairs.
I have a feeling Revelation 6:12 will trigger the invasion of Israel. The same earthquake spot from the crucification, and 70 AD Roman invasion. The 6th seal leads into the 7th trumpet. The timing will be impeccable.
no part of revelation is going to occur in the physical sense.
revelation is spiritual warfare for the kingdom of heaven.
revelation is completely symbolic.
isaiah 9:5 now every (natural) battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this (spiritual battle) shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
isaiah 9:19 ....and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire....
isaiah 4:4 when the lord (a consuming fire hebrews 12:29) shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of (new) zion, and shall have purged the blood of (new) jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgement and the spirit of burning.
luke 12:49 i am come to send fire on the earth; and what be i (the fire), if it (the fire) be kindled already?
matthew 4:11 ....he shall baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire;
isaiah 9:18 for wickedness burneth as the fire (our god is a consuming fire).....
isaiah 10:16 .... and under his glory (us) he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
isaiah 24:15 wherefore glorify ye the lord in the fires ....
isaiah 31:9 ....whose fire is in (new) zion, and his furnace in (new) jerusalem.
isaiah 33:14 .....who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burning?
where the fire is never quenched (our god is a consuming fire)
isaiah 42:25 therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle; and it (the battle) hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it (the battle) burned him, and he laid it not to heart.
ezekiel 5:2 thou shall burn with fire a third part in the midst of the (new jerusalem, christ in you).....
zachariah 13:9 and i will bring the third part through the fire ....
revelation 8:1-13
revelation 9:18 by these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire...brimstone...smoke....
hebrews 9:27
1 peter 4:17
Thank you for replying; these issues need to be discussed openly and readily.
Your premise is that Revelation, in conjunction with the prophets, is completely symbolic and won't manifest itself here on earth.
The Bible was penned for us, not heaven. If prophesies concerning warfare are going to be fulfilled in Spiritual heaven, and not earth, what's the point of our existence? How are we to overcome, make it to the end if the lessons are not in our physical realm? You may think it is symbolic, but the fact of the matter is down here on earth we are always on the brink. We've had 2 world wars etc, and are staring down the barrel of a 3rd.
So, why do I sense war is coming; the warning lights flash on my map. If you are correct in your approach, how is this madness ever going to reach fruition for the people of earth?
I have read what has been written, and have come to the conclusion that modern day Israel will be baptized by fire. We have a little ways to go, the 6th seal events will come to pass before the day of trouble. When time ends, the mystery will be finished, and both of us will understand what it was all about.
I'm not sure you understand the kingdom of heaven.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.
Luke 20: 35-36 But they who shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(vs 36) Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Revelations symbolizes how you obtain that world and the judgement the saints will bring upon the earth.
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written: this honour has all his saints.
Revelation 2:26-27 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
(vs 27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers, even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 3:9 Behold I will make of them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews (circumcised in the heart), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Those in the kingdom of heaven are those who are going to rule over the earth symbolized in Revelation and explained in the prophets.
At the resurrection, we know about those dead in Christ, and about those who make it to the end, everyone is lifted up at the same time. I like the details of the saints below, do you know them?
-Like these:
Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
-Who are their "fellow servants" also their brethren that were killed like they were?
These:
Revelation 11:7-12 .........(12)"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
The 144,000 are the two candlesticks and the 2 olive trees that stand before God. They finished their testimony and are killed. They ascended to heaven in a cloud at the 7th trumpet to join Christ.
Explain to me in a paragraph exactly what you are saying about Revelation, heaven and earth? Above and below during the 6th-7th trumpets? What do we do if it starts to get bomby outside? Can you conceptualize your thoughts to what you personally envision, and share that? The only scripture you listed that supports your stance is John 18:36, but you are taking Jesus out of context; He is speaking about His current reality, he's restrained. The rest of the scriptures carry little weight to substantiate a claim.
You claim this:
"no part of revelation is going to occur in the physical sense.
revelation is spiritual warfare for the kingdom of heaven.
revelation is completely symbolic."
I always counted the 7th trumpet "saints" as those resurrected in Christ. The earthly army of a transfigured Jesus Christ in His bright glory taking over the earth. It doesn't seem symbolic for God to have to go to all these lengths to do exactly as he has written, but he does so to fulfill prophesy, on earth. Earl, I'm not persuading you to change your mind, I'm just glad to be talking to you.
Why would God promise David that he would never lack a king sitting on his throne till Christ comes if the earth isn't going to be rewarded, renewed. Jesus Christ has an earthly throne to come down to.
"Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel." 1 Kings 9:5
Without the 3 evil spirits, we can be born again, saints.
Looking forward to your rundown of this age.
"no part of revelation is going to occur in the physical sense.
revelation is spiritual warfare for the kingdom of heaven.
revelation is completely symbolic."
Revelation 21:1-5
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
See you at the 7th trumpet: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 11:15
When Christ returns, the resurrected will spend a length of time repairing and healing the earth. I do not think "slavery" as we know it will be the mode of operation.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." Ezekiel 39:11-13 The house of Israel pulls all the weight.
When my dad, devout OT lover, was on his death bed, I asked him where is he going after he dies? He said "back into the universe."
That is awful, abuse. Your grandmother must have been in a lot of pain.
I have this theory about the cause of personal anguish: your memory. It reminds you of everything. Ever have a bad luck streak in sleeping. Toss and turn, sing the dumbest songs. Go to work crazy?
I found a scientific solution, you will laugh, but it works: If I gently tap, with my left hand fingers (slap), the top front, left side of my head, a 2" wide x 3" back section from hairline, and lightly tap my head 10 times, the vibration of my skull manipulates the brain waves, freeing me of the thought. The taps stimulate analytical left brain, shutting down right brain creativity. I'll be giving a presentation at the Cleveland Clinic next week.....Ah haha. Don't knock yourself out.
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