Genesis came to mind. The creation account clearly gives us the earth surrounded by water, above the firmament and below. Of course we now have a scientific paradigm that tells us the opposite. They both cannot possibly be correct and yet for quite some time now professed bible believers have mutilated the inspired word in their efforts to conform with the scientific world view. If you have the courage study the word firmament, it reveals the true nature of Gods creation.
Hi Gary, disbelievers usually refer to this as creation vs. science. However, it's really science vs atheism. Atheists are motivated to show only data that reaffirms what they want to believe, so they naturally have a bias against all scientific data that supports creation. It's not real science if it's biased. There are countless evidence of God through scientific data. There are many good YouTube videos and websites on this. For example, the fact that we even exist is a scientific data point supporting intelligent design. Tesla cars don't invent themselves randomly, but humans with even more features than a Tesla designed itself? That has never been seen or witnessed and can't be reproduced, which is why that's only a theory or a belief- similar to a religious belief, but with even less support.
Scientists often proclaim things boldly as indisputable facts and are often wrong, then they quietly retract the falsehoods and move on. Things like diet, how our body works, left brain/right brain assumptions, physics, animals and instinct, space. Nearly every topic people have been 100% wrong in the name of science, but they got everyone to believe it at the time. Al Gore said houses on beaches would be 10' underwater and that was supposed to be a few years ago. He even bought a mansion near the beach in Malibu so he obviously didn't believe it himself. So, there's a long history of people claiming to be scientists and being 100% wrong.
Now the firmament- you said there's a scientific paradigm that says the opposite. So, what? Do you believe one person's opinion over the wisdom of the Bible? Remember the world's smartest "scientists" used to believe the earth was flat, but the Bible said it was round- it called it the "circle of the Earth" which was written in Isaiah in BC. But scientists didn't agree or believe it until at least 1,500 years later. The Bible's wisdom has proven each time to be right on everything. Link
Just to write a kind reply. Many people today believe and have proof of the earth being "flat"(simple term). Proving the curve of the earth to not be real, or exist, as would be on a "ball". The only proof nasa or anybody else has is word of mouth and pictures/TV. As I am not here to make anybody believe anything. We are all on our own mission as you know.
So to the Bible. As Gary stated about the "firmament". Saying to study the word maybe that it actually means a "solid expanse". A couple other things in the Bible on this in Genesis. How the great lights that were created, sun, moon, stars, were set "in" the firmament. Genesis 1:14-17. How Joshua made the sun, and moon, stand still. Joshua 10:12-13. Some people say God really made the earth stop rotating and spinning because they didn't know we were on a "ball" in space back then. Basically saying the Bible is wrong here. Or maybe how the Bible says in so many places the earth is "fixed and immovable". Is the Bible wrong here too as nasa claims we are spinning at around 1000mph and rotating around the sun over 66k mph? I believe the Bible.
Did you know they say the tilt of the earth is 23.4 degrees? Minus a right angle of 90 degrees it is 66.6 degrees.
As I'll end with Isaiah claiming God to sit on the circle of the earth. A circle is not a "ball" or "sphere". Isaiah also knew this as well. In Isaiah 22:18 he states "toss thee like a ball". Which is a different Hebrew word than "circle".
Anyway, again, I don't think us followers of Christ should argue over such things. Sometimes the truth is not easy to accept after being deceived for all our lives.
Jesus Christ our Lord is the way and we should all focus on Him. Staying strong in the Word. Amen.
It interesting how you reply and present your side, which includes false assumptions, then end by saying you don't think Christians should argue about it. If that's what you believe then why did you start arguing over it?
I won't pick apart all the logical errors presented here, but will just mention one very common one people use to twist the Bible to say what they want is they do selective translations. Even though the Bible is already translated in the best way, someone will find something they don't like, then go to the Greek or Hebrew to try to re-translate it themselves. The problem with this is it's already translated, far more carefully and accurately than someone just trying to change one word that seems inconvenient to a person at the time. People use this fake news technique to justify all kinds of crazy beliefs. So, I will call it out when I see it. The earth is round just like the Bible says and that's easily proven today by countless means. God bless.
Well thank you for calling it interesting I guess. What "assumptions" did I make that were false to you? I won't argue with anyone about this because I can't force anyone to believe anything. There is something called truth. And if I'm wrong then I take responsibility for what I've said. To have mature friendly conversations with others is always good. Even if beliefs are not exactly the same. If you call what I wrote "arguing" I apologize and am sorry you see it like that.
So to say you wont pick apart "all the logical errors presented here" just makes me feel you're saying I'm wrong and you're right? Then are you saying I'm twisting the Bible in some way? So you think it means what you want, or perceive, but what I see is false or wrong? After spending much time researching. Yet you won't let me know what you say is wrong with my statement. No problem, you can call it all wrong. But what if it's not?
So our belief is crazy? So where are your countless means of proof of the shape of the earth? And if you're going to tell me CGI pictures, what's on TV, what nasa says, or what they teach in school no need to reply brother.
Like I said before. I won't condemn people for believing what they were taught in this world. You call me in error, false, and with crazy beliefs because they are not of this "world". I still love you. God Bless.
I have no certificates, no decorative documentation in the ministry for God. But what good will a document do my soul? I have no high, nor formal, title: I am simply "Sister Genny". But who can and entitle me, in God gospel? Man's highest certificates, in ministry, is as null, void, powerless and frivolous as his highest title in the same. His highest wisdom in the most that he can teach you, which is the least that you could learn from God. So, if man's highest degree is lower than God's nursery school, where will the man go after he graduated from the highest ordination given by man? Who will be left to teach him, once he graduates? Only God. But what good is it to graduate at man's highest class, if it is less than God's kindergarten; who will you turn to that can teach wisdom that is too high for man: Job 28:12-13 (:27-28); 1 Cor. 2:4-8. No certificate should dare to claim that a person has reached any level in the wisdom of God, for God wisdom is not subjected to human levels; but it is, to the contrary, limitless. If those highly decorated Christians would search the scriptures they will find that God will give them His own wisdom, simply because they nagged Him for it, if for no other reason. Lu 11:8;18:2-8; Jam 1:5. The worst part about it is that, you don't actually have to know God to earn a certificate that serves as evidence that you know about God. You can get a certificate off of the internet from a course that was designed by a minister, you may never know, teaching you about a God you don't have to know in order to earn the certificate. Anyone would rather you meet them before you go around trying to tell people about them: How much more must God want to be known by those who have a certificates concerning Him, but do not know Him? The kingdom of God is not a religious course. . The Kingdom Is True And Living Power. Always obey the epistle's in the new testament, Our teacher should be Apostle Paul, Apostle Peter, Apostle James, John & Jude
The Bible does not stand as a perfect or scientific document. Just speaking on KJV 1611, it is a sloppy manuscript, littered with topical flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies. To even notice the errors, you would have to read corresponding passages over and over, and over to compare and patch them together like a game of "concentration".
One example for the thick is Paul on his way to Damascus:
Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
So, what is it, huh? Did they hear the voice or not? I can do this all day with hundreds of verses that infuriate me.
As far as the earths shape is concerned, it is definitely spherical, like the other planets/moons. Though they reach for the stars, I will bring them down to the pit. Amos 9:2 LEO, 400 miles up is our limit, then we hit the firmament hard, keeping mankind "in". Space programs like governments are shrouded in mystery, deception, lies and fraud. NASA could prove the earths shape, but prefer to stoke the division of uncertainty. Did you see earths curvature last year when SpaceX posted the mission video? What about the earth casting a "round" shadow on the moon during an eclipse? Plato and Socrates saw the curved shadow and determined the earth was round.
For fun, Google "They're Alive!! Challenger Crew Found Alive and Well 30 years since the Disaster". The hoaxter astronauts didn't even bother to change their names!!!
If someone is on a mission to find fault they can usually find it with anything, however, in doing so they often use a lot of false assumptions and mental gymnastics to justify and arrive at what they want to believe. In your example, it's just a false assumption. I assume not motivated by any bias, but in some cases bias causes the misinterpretations intentionally. Someone can hear sound but not discern words and someone can see light or a shape, but not identify what it is. People often form rigid parameters in their mind that don't exist. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, but the person making an argument ends up making false assumptions and contradictory points himself. There's also points of view from different authors- some saw and heard one piece, some another. It doesn't automatically mean it contradicts itself though. Did Judas hang himself or did he fall and his guts spill out? Why not both? A tree branch could have easily broken and resulted in that. People often assume contradictions for whatever they hope to find a contradiction in.
Shem, you've given a valid example in Acts 9:7 and 22:9. I've read this before, & not wanting to make excuses to justify the Word's inerrancy, could it be that in verse 7, those who were with Saul only heard a sound & not the words, whereas in verse 9 the same thing is said, that they did not hear the voice (the speech)? So, in both instances, it was only a sound that was heard.
Since the same Greek word for 'voice' (phonos) is used, its meaning can apply to both an intelligible voice or a sound. Then look at 1 Kings 19:12, "And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice." Again, no intelligible language was heard by Elijah, but a 'sound of quiet stillness'. The Hebrew word is 'qo-wl', meaning, 'a sound, a voice', an exact equivalent to the Greek. Therefore, I have no problem with this apparent difference, though I'm always interested to learn what others find in the Bible that could be a problem. Maybe you could throw me another one for my study - but please, not a hundred of them.
I have thought; prayed & meditated on the writing & meanings of each Book, Chapter & Verse - that I've studied as they've entered my life.
Starting this Bible study is my commitment to immerse my Soul in The Word of God!
I BELIEVE God is THE Author of the Old & New Testaments.
God spoke to each of the "Transcribers" & wrote what The Almighty "Dictated to them.
An example of this is Moses & the 10 Commandments; Moses being a "Vessel", filled with the Holy Spirit's Light, had to cover his head because, I Spiritually "See" Moses & I "See" that to look upon the Light of The Holy Spirit emanating from Moses' head would be like Looking at The Sun!
My point is this; if I had "Transcribed" for The Almighty, I would have written what I just wrote I "saw", KNOWING that most people would easily understand & experience what God had me Transcribe!
There were many "Transcribers", using their surroundings, customs & channeling of God's words to Transcribe accurately but understandably, God's Words for Humanity, for all time!
These were Holy Men (Holy Women, too!) Of God, FILLED with The Holy Spirit, who responsibily Transcribed in "The Books" God's SPOKEN Words into His Poetry, History- to Understand God for Fellowship with The Almighty & His Creation, MANKIND..
God's Laws, to be followed EXACTLY, For RIGHTEOUS Living; NO MATTER WHAT! So the Transcriber of each Book HAD to make sure "The Word of God" would be Understood & Followed, FOREVER!
Transcribers "INTERPRETED" The Prophecies; VERY IMPORTANT because to have TRUE FELLOWSHIP with Our Father, We Children must Trust & Live Our Father's Words; The Ten Commandments, His Laws for RIGHTEOUS Lives; to KNOW We Must give Our Will over to the Care of Our Father.
If We Live by Spiritual Law; God Will ALWAYS PROTECT US & if the God's Laws aren't Followed, what would happen- Warnrnings/inspiration to be Righteous!
About the Future of Mankind & Most of All - to give All His Children - HOPE!9
In the New Testament, 'predestination' is mentioned twice: Ephesians 1:5 & 1:11. In both cases, the Apostle Paul indicates that the Christian has been predestined to be 'adopted as God's children' and 'to receive an inheritance in His Kingdom'.
So both these verses point to a Christian's assurance that God has secured a destiny for us that is immutable because of Christ's sacrifice for our sins enabling God forgiving us & our acceptability into His family. That God is now our Father, where we once obeyed & served our former evil father, & that God's Son is our (elder) brother who has shown us the way, indeed was the Way, to our Father, ought to bring us much joy, comfort & assurance in the Work of God for us.
It should be said, that there are some who believe that God has predestined each human being to either eternal life or eternal death & that no amount of preaching, convicting or urging can alter that determination by God. That belief is untrue & I don't know whether this aspect is in your mind as you asked your question. If that was the case, there would be no need for the Gospel, nor preaching, nor responding - indeed, the Cross itself would be brought into question. We do know that God, in His Omniscience (His foreknowledge) knows all about His creation & who will or will not respond to the Cross. But that Knowledge doesn't determine who will be saved or who will be denied salvation. Just thought to add this if you were wondering.
Scientists often proclaim things boldly as indisputable facts and are often wrong, then they quietly retract the falsehoods and move on. Things like diet, how our body works, left brain/right brain assumptions, physics, animals and instinct, space. Nearly every topic people have been 100% wrong in the name of science, but they got everyone to believe it at the time. Al Gore said houses on beaches would be 10' underwater and that was supposed to be a few years ago. He even bought a mansion near the beach in Malibu so he obviously didn't believe it himself. So, there's a long history of people claiming to be scientists and being 100% wrong.
Now the firmament- you said there's a scientific paradigm that says the opposite. So, what? Do you believe one person's opinion over the wisdom of the Bible? Remember the world's smartest "scientists" used to believe the earth was flat, but the Bible said it was round- it called it the "circle of the Earth" which was written in Isaiah in BC. But scientists didn't agree or believe it until at least 1,500 years later. The Bible's wisdom has proven each time to be right on everything. Link
Just to write a kind reply. Many people today believe and have proof of the earth being "flat"(simple term). Proving the curve of the earth to not be real, or exist, as would be on a "ball". The only proof nasa or anybody else has is word of mouth and pictures/TV. As I am not here to make anybody believe anything. We are all on our own mission as you know.
So to the Bible. As Gary stated about the "firmament". Saying to study the word maybe that it actually means a "solid expanse". A couple other things in the Bible on this in Genesis. How the great lights that were created, sun, moon, stars, were set "in" the firmament. Genesis 1:14-17. How Joshua made the sun, and moon, stand still. Joshua 10:12-13. Some people say God really made the earth stop rotating and spinning because they didn't know we were on a "ball" in space back then. Basically saying the Bible is wrong here. Or maybe how the Bible says in so many places the earth is "fixed and immovable". Is the Bible wrong here too as nasa claims we are spinning at around 1000mph and rotating around the sun over 66k mph? I believe the Bible.
Did you know they say the tilt of the earth is 23.4 degrees? Minus a right angle of 90 degrees it is 66.6 degrees.
As I'll end with Isaiah claiming God to sit on the circle of the earth. A circle is not a "ball" or "sphere". Isaiah also knew this as well. In Isaiah 22:18 he states "toss thee like a ball". Which is a different Hebrew word than "circle".
Anyway, again, I don't think us followers of Christ should argue over such things. Sometimes the truth is not easy to accept after being deceived for all our lives.
Jesus Christ our Lord is the way and we should all focus on Him. Staying strong in the Word. Amen.
God Bless brother.
I won't pick apart all the logical errors presented here, but will just mention one very common one people use to twist the Bible to say what they want is they do selective translations. Even though the Bible is already translated in the best way, someone will find something they don't like, then go to the Greek or Hebrew to try to re-translate it themselves. The problem with this is it's already translated, far more carefully and accurately than someone just trying to change one word that seems inconvenient to a person at the time. People use this fake news technique to justify all kinds of crazy beliefs. So, I will call it out when I see it. The earth is round just like the Bible says and that's easily proven today by countless means. God bless.
So to say you wont pick apart "all the logical errors presented here" just makes me feel you're saying I'm wrong and you're right? Then are you saying I'm twisting the Bible in some way? So you think it means what you want, or perceive, but what I see is false or wrong? After spending much time researching. Yet you won't let me know what you say is wrong with my statement. No problem, you can call it all wrong. But what if it's not?
So our belief is crazy? So where are your countless means of proof of the shape of the earth? And if you're going to tell me CGI pictures, what's on TV, what nasa says, or what they teach in school no need to reply brother.
Like I said before. I won't condemn people for believing what they were taught in this world. You call me in error, false, and with crazy beliefs because they are not of this "world". I still love you. God Bless.
One example for the thick is Paul on his way to Damascus:
Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
So, what is it, huh? Did they hear the voice or not? I can do this all day with hundreds of verses that infuriate me.
As far as the earths shape is concerned, it is definitely spherical, like the other planets/moons. Though they reach for the stars, I will bring them down to the pit. Amos 9:2 LEO, 400 miles up is our limit, then we hit the firmament hard, keeping mankind "in". Space programs like governments are shrouded in mystery, deception, lies and fraud. NASA could prove the earths shape, but prefer to stoke the division of uncertainty. Did you see earths curvature last year when SpaceX posted the mission video? What about the earth casting a "round" shadow on the moon during an eclipse? Plato and Socrates saw the curved shadow and determined the earth was round.
For fun, Google "They're Alive!! Challenger Crew Found Alive and Well 30 years since the Disaster". The hoaxter astronauts didn't even bother to change their names!!!
Since the same Greek word for 'voice' (phonos) is used, its meaning can apply to both an intelligible voice or a sound. Then look at 1 Kings 19:12, "And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice." Again, no intelligible language was heard by Elijah, but a 'sound of quiet stillness'. The Hebrew word is 'qo-wl', meaning, 'a sound, a voice', an exact equivalent to the Greek. Therefore, I have no problem with this apparent difference, though I'm always interested to learn what others find in the Bible that could be a problem. Maybe you could throw me another one for my study - but please, not a hundred of them.
I have thought; prayed & meditated on the writing & meanings of each Book, Chapter & Verse - that I've studied as they've entered my life.
Starting this Bible study is my commitment to immerse my Soul in The Word of God!
I BELIEVE God is THE Author of the Old & New Testaments.
God spoke to each of the "Transcribers" & wrote what The Almighty "Dictated to them.
An example of this is Moses & the 10 Commandments; Moses being a "Vessel", filled with the Holy Spirit's Light, had to cover his head because, I Spiritually "See" Moses & I "See" that to look upon the Light of The Holy Spirit emanating from Moses' head would be like Looking at The Sun!
My point is this; if I had "Transcribed" for The Almighty, I would have written what I just wrote I "saw", KNOWING that most people would easily understand & experience what God had me Transcribe!
There were many "Transcribers", using their surroundings, customs & channeling of God's words to Transcribe accurately but understandably, God's Words for Humanity, for all time!
These were Holy Men (Holy Women, too!) Of God, FILLED with The Holy Spirit, who responsibily Transcribed in "The Books" God's SPOKEN Words into His Poetry, History- to Understand God for Fellowship with The Almighty & His Creation, MANKIND..
God's Laws, to be followed EXACTLY, For RIGHTEOUS Living; NO MATTER WHAT! So the Transcriber of each Book HAD to make sure "The Word of God" would be Understood & Followed, FOREVER!
Transcribers "INTERPRETED" The Prophecies; VERY IMPORTANT because to have TRUE FELLOWSHIP with Our Father, We Children must Trust & Live Our Father's Words; The Ten Commandments, His Laws for RIGHTEOUS Lives; to KNOW We Must give Our Will over to the Care of Our Father.
If We Live by Spiritual Law; God Will ALWAYS PROTECT US & if the God's Laws aren't Followed, what would happen- Warnrnings/inspiration to be Righteous!
About the Future of Mankind & Most of All - to give All His Children - HOPE!9
So both these verses point to a Christian's assurance that God has secured a destiny for us that is immutable because of Christ's sacrifice for our sins enabling God forgiving us & our acceptability into His family. That God is now our Father, where we once obeyed & served our former evil father, & that God's Son is our (elder) brother who has shown us the way, indeed was the Way, to our Father, ought to bring us much joy, comfort & assurance in the Work of God for us.
It should be said, that there are some who believe that God has predestined each human being to either eternal life or eternal death & that no amount of preaching, convicting or urging can alter that determination by God. That belief is untrue & I don't know whether this aspect is in your mind as you asked your question. If that was the case, there would be no need for the Gospel, nor preaching, nor responding - indeed, the Cross itself would be brought into question. We do know that God, in His Omniscience (His foreknowledge) knows all about His creation & who will or will not respond to the Cross. But that Knowledge doesn't determine who will be saved or who will be denied salvation. Just thought to add this if you were wondering.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Please Sign In or Register to post comments...
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?