How do we know what is true, and what is a lie? In a world full of lies, that represent one another's self interest and not the interest of all? After all, the weather channel does not always get it Right? The truth is, man is evil from his youth, there is nothing in him that is good! With these things in mind, where then should we be focused? Never put your confidence in man! Always look too the Cross knowing what you see their is real!!! Knowing all wisdom and knowledge will come from their! God is in control of all things. Satan 's desire is to deceive, it is the master of all lies! It has the ability to make things into light where there is none! The world is Satan's, He has no power more than God will give Him! As we get older, we become even more susceptible to his ways. Remember, strength is made perfect through weakness. The power we need will come through the holy spirit, this spirit is what you will need in the time of temptation!
Man is not evil from birth. Moses gave us two sets of Commandments and told us to teach them to our children and they will grow up and grow old and never depart from God. We are holy from birth and all people need to be taught how to remain holy. How can a person fall is they are not upright to begin with? How can a person depart from God if they are not with him to begin with? In 1 Cor. 10:8 we are told how we fall, "Neither let us commit fornication, as some...and fell in one day 23,000." They had to be upright before they fell. Many biblical characters are upright such as Noah, Job, Jacob, Jesus, and Abraham and others. They did not fall, because they did not commit fornication.
We need a Christianity that will teach all people how to not fall. On my website I explain that more fully.
Hi Marilyn. here is the sins of Sodom. Ezekiel 16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.. Now concerning the darkness you spoke of. John 1:4-12 . In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Hi Marilyn, I find it concerning you never mentions Christ by means of Redemption! nor faith, nor grace, nor mercy. but you mentions the law by means of the commandments, Where is the sacrifices? do you know Christ came to fulfill the law? and the sacrifices pointed to him, the first being the skins God made Adam and Eve when they bit of the tree of knowledge? The issue was they knew they were naked/ "sin exposed " and they would try to cover themselves. You see Garments in the scripture often speaks of righteousness, ( Mans righteousness is as filthy rags). Do you know inside the tabernacle was the 10 commandments and over it was a mercy seat? the law was called the ministry of condemnation. Romans 7:8-14 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Paul here is using himself as an example for us all. Now all the characters you used were just, question is how was they just? " The just shall live by faith " .They were perfect, "meaning blameless" They were right in their relationship with God, They were taught to offer up sacrifices, " by faith Abel offered up a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, Abel sacrifice pointed to Christ, Cains was the works of his own hands. They all was justified by faith.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal3:10-24
Fornication is not the deciding sin which makes one a sinner or not. All whom you have mentioned, except Jesus, committed sin because they, like us, were born into sin. Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". Not only has sin (specifically, the sin nature) been imputed to all coming into the world, but the fact that we all die (both physically & spiritually) confirms the fact that we are in the process of dying from the moment of our birth. The only reason that Jesus died physically was because He took on humanity & placed Himself in the easy reach of evil men, for the purpose of becoming man's only Way to Eternal Life.
I have yet to meet a family who was able to raise children from birth to adulthood, having not committed sin. We don't need a "Christianity that will teach all people how to not fall", we need to be more vibrant & vigilant in sharing the Gospel to all that they may not fall into the pit of Hell.
And 1 Corinthians 10:8 speaks about the 23,000 who 'DIED', not fell into sin. These were not 'upright' people at all - they were downright sinners altogether & were so judged.
When you say they died but did not fall, my Bible states that they fell. 1 Corinthians 10:8 "Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousands." What version do you read? I use the KJV. They had to be upright before they fell. God tells us if sinners entice thee, do not consent. If you do not consent then you do not fall. But is you consent to commit fornication you will fall.
You're correct - my Bible too gives the word as "fell". But why I say that 'fell' means 'died' is because of the longer account of this tragedy in Numbers 25:1-9. You will see it there. Of course, from your reading you will also notice the difference in the number who 'died': in Numbers it is given as 24,000, whereas Paul indicates 23,000. In case you raise this matter with me, this 'discrepancy' has been explained by the fact that in Numbers, the total number of people killed is given (i.e. 23,000 killed by the plague & the other 1,000 killed by Phinehas). But if you need another option to this: the number killed may have been somewhere between 23,000 & 24,000, in which case Paul uses the former & in Numbers, the latter is given. I think this last option deals with the 'discrepancy' better.
So, they were certainly not "upright before they fell" - they were 'downright bad folk' whom God severely dealt with.
Yes, when a person commits fornication they fall and they die. Sin is deadly. But a person must leave being upright and righteous to fall dead as stated in Pro 2:13, "Who leave the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness." They are upright before they fall.
A person must leave being upright to walk in the fallen state of sin. And the sin of fornication makes a spiritual darkness on earth. Today the darkness is everywhere and is the condition that is responsible for all our social ills.
If God commands us not to do something and we do it ,that is sin ,wether He tells us not to eat that fruit or not to covet our neighbours ox or not to commit adultery ,its all sin ,you seem to want to focus on sexual sins which is ok but in doing so you may be not noticing all the other potential sins possibly going on around you.
So, I gather that you believe that unless an 'upright & righteous' person falls into sin (particularly fornication), he won't suffer death.
Then the question: who is an upright & righteous person? Is he a sinner that hasn't fallen into sin? Can such a person exist given the transmission of the sin nature to all? Do any of his other sins count as being equally heinous before God or only those of a sexual nature? Indeed, why just focus on this type of sin, when all other sins is equally abhorrent to God & which sends people to hell?
Do you mean physical death or spiritual death. If you mean spiritual death, then you must understand that you can be once dead or twice dead. Those given to fornication are twice dead as stated in the book of Jude. That means their sin is more deadly than a lesser sin. The hypocrites will be accused of neglecting the weightier matters of the law. Yes, fornication is a greater sin.
What do you think of the Christianity of today marrying and ordaining the homosexuals?
In the Christian love feasts/gatherings, they were spots (Gk. hidden reefs/rocks that cause shipwreck) against the solidness of the Church, appearing to bring worthwhile teaching but were just dry clouds, as trees with dried, dying fruit on them but also doubly dead with rotting root as well (roots that no longer bound the tree into the earth, but could easily be 'plucked up' with little effort), etc., etc. When you see this, "beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ". It may well be that these "filthy dreamers" were introducing fornication into the Church as well, supporting their teaching that gives permission to the appeal of the flesh, but the message of Jude is to beware of these men who are children of Satan & who do not come in the Name of the Lord, neither do they teach nor behave as children of Light.
"What do I think of Christianity today?" By & large, the Church is not in a good state - we have left some of the apostolic teaching, vibrancy & urgency to both the saved & the lost. The Church essentially has lost its witness & the World loves to have it this way - the World then can have no Divine pronouncement of Judgement against their wicked deeds. Jesus' message to the 7 Churches should also be given heed today. Hypocrisy & compromise are the Churches' leading errors & our abject failure to bring the requirements of God to the forefront of the secular world; & I refer to the failure of our fundamental, evangelical Churches. But to those Churches that entertain marriage of homosexuals, women clergy, ordination of women/homosexuals, & turning a blind eye to the same conditions of Sodom in our cities & maybe within the Church as well, (& with govts. pandering to homosexuals' demands, remain equally culpable before God), it would be like walking on the circumference of Hell. Indeed, the Church at large is in a mess, but there is still a remnant that are led of God's Spirit & are in anguish.
Actually, I meant 'physical death', as you mentioned those who "walk uprightly & if they then fall dead". If they're upright, then no death; if they fall, then death, is how I understand your statement. Or maybe, we need to define 'uprightness & righteousness' pertaining to how the upright might fall. And of course, death (both physical & spiritual) must come to us as we are sinners deserving of both. Had Adam not sinned, he would not have died in both ways. One day, I will die physically because of sin, but through Christ & God's Mercy, I will be spared spiritual death.
I know there are some sins more 'severe' than others, but the Bible doesn't differentiate that any 'lesser' sin committed can spare man from God's Judgement. You seem to have settled in your mind, that fornication is the 'ultimate, deadliest' sin. I don't know where you have learned this or maybe been a witness to such a tragedy that has deeply affected you. One can never discount this sin, but really, is it any greater than murder, theft, rape, deceit, hypocrisy, etc.? Is the murder of George Floyd any less or greater a murder than of an unborn child? Is the rampage & desecration of the Capitol any less or greater a crime than of one breaking in & destroying your home & privacy? All are sin before God: whether fornication of the most despicable sort or the lust conceived in the heart of man.
You quote Jude, but again, I feel that I need to share a little about the book, since you are seeing 'fornication' written all over it. Jude in verse 3 writes about those 'men, ungodly men, who crept into the Church'. Jude gives examples of God's past Judgements (as given to the Egyptians, the angels who rebelled along with Satan, & to Sodom). As with them, these ungodly men will not escape, these who have done the works of Cain (wrong hearts/motives/rebellion), of Balaam (greed), & of Core (Korah: insubordination, rebellious, desire to be prominent).
Romans 1; 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
When fornication ends all the sins above will end. Murder comes from the minds of the fornicators. Murder will end. It would be love for all humans to put an end to fornication, unnatural sex. It is the foundation of all our social ills.
Are you saying Adam and Eve problem was that they loved money? Sin began in Eden. Are you saying if we get rid of a desire for money that will end all evils such as incest, child molestation, prostitution, murder, war, etc. Are you saying if we get rid of money all people can commit oral and anal sex-- all people can be homosexuals and that is okay. Are you saying the difference between good an evil is the desire for money?
"But fornicationlet it not be once named among you, as becometh saints, Eph 5:3." If you call yourself a Christian you cannot commit fornication even once. Once is all it takes to be unholy-profane.
When looking at Jacob and Esau we learn that Esau was a fornicator. Was his problem the love of money or was it fornication? Heb 12:16 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."
I know the Bible says what you quoted but throughout the Bible sin is not the love of money. Sin is using the body in a way god forbids. We need to understand sin. The end of sin will bring heaven to earth.
'Are you saying Adam and Eve problem was that they loved money?"
Wealth is something in your life that becomes a part of your self image. Adam and Eve wanted/desired what they thought the fruit would give them, namely, wisdom/wealth. As Paul states, it is not the money itself, but the covetous desire first seen in Adam and Eve, and thereby the root of humanity. Instead of imparting wisdom, the fruit changed the status of Adam and Eve from living to dead to God. Shortly after uncovering their sin, God himself gave wisdom to Adam and Eve, in the understanding that accompanied the blood sacrifice for their acceptable coverings, all of God and out of his graciousness.
"I know the Bible says what you quoted but"
That little three letter word "but" tells me you are more interested in pushing your own thoughts, rather than listening to the Bible.
You never answered the dispute you have with Peter, Paul and John on the sinlessness of Jesus. Are they wrong or are your suppositions wrong?
"When fornication ends all the sins above will end"(?). I'm sorry, I've tried desperately to understand where you're coming from with this belief & though you've not stated it, I think that your belief stems from a skewed understanding of God's Word that has been introduced to you. You're coming from a standpoint that fornication is the root of all sin, therefore seeing it in every Scripture that relates to any sin. I really encourage you to do a fresh reading of God's Word & see how far off the track you've gone by forcing sexual sin to be the common denominator to every other sin.
Even with the Romans passage you've quoted, fornication has been 'forced' into its meaning. Why was "the Wrath of God revealed from Heaven?" Because in their darkened hearts, they chose to worship the creation rather than their Creator: idolatry was their sin, not fornication. And because of their idolatry, God gave them up to the other sins of: various lusts, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, envy, murder, etc. Sins do not start from fornication - Adam did not fornicate: he had a natural beautiful relationship with his newly created wife until the great deception came upon them. Fornication cannot take place within marriage - if there is unfaithfulness, then it's called adultery.
You have every right to present your views but as you can see, you will get very little or no support to them, at least from those who have some knowledge of the Bible. Do you really believe that such views as you hold could ever convince us that fornication is the root of all sin? One would have to throw out the intent of a whole lot of Scripture to entertain your views. And you've chosen not to further debate my presentation of the earlier Scriptures you've given: rather you should have eagerly challenged me over them & defended your understanding if you're truly serious about conveying your sincere beliefs. I hope that with the time we've spent on this, that you may read the Word differently.
Chris this is a quote from your comment--"Fornication cannot take place within marriage - if there is unfaithfulness, then it's called adultery."
How do you explain the following?
The following verse gives a man and his wife instructions not to sin. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" ( Colossians 3:18). This indicates a man and his wife can do what is unfit and the cross reference to "as it is fit in the Lord" refers one to Ephesians 5:3, "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not be once named among you." Throughout scripture many verses tell a man and his wife there is a form of sexual behavior they should not engage in.
Fornication is clearly defined in Jude 1:7 as being the sex in Sodom and Gomorrah. "Sodom and Gomorrah giving themselves over to fornicationare set forth for an example." So we can see that God forbids all men and women, including husbands and wives to use their bodies for fornication. This truth is reinforced and made clear in 1 Corinthians 6:13 where it declares, "The body is not made for fornication, but for the Lord.
How can a wife and her husband commit adultery with each other as you tell us they can.?
"as it is fit in the Lord". Your understanding of this word "fit" seems to be, once again, linked to sexual misbehaviour/deviation. Whereas, "fit in the Lord" has nothing to do with sex, the instruction there is: 'wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is the proper thing to do, according to God's Desire & Plan for marital order & harmony'. This is the position of the wife to the husband & the attitude that she should adopt. And lest husbands see this instruction as a directive to his wife to 'worship him in everything', husbands should also note the next verse: "husbands love your wives & be not bitter against them". When the husband truly loves his wife, esteeming her, supporting her & giving of himself to her completely, he can then expect that position of loving submission from her. Now if you see some sexual deviation, whether from the wife or husband, I really don't know how you can possibly arrive at that. You recently did mention a Pastor you sat under many years ago - I wonder whether he or another has drilled this type of biblical mangling into you (& others) so that you can only see sexual perversion in so many biblical situations. Clearly, there are many warnings given in the Scriptures - but please, let's not force Scriptures to mean something they're not intended to do.
Can you supply supporting Scriptures to show that a husband & wife should be avoiding forms of sexual behaviour? Your quoting of Jude 7 is correct regarding 'fornication', but to then apply that example to husbands & wives is not only a 'long stretch', but quite inaccurate, as Adam & Richard have well explained. I can admit to the possibility of rape within marriage, when force is used for sexual gratification, but a husband & wife are "no longer two, but one flesh" ( Matthew 19:5,6). As a single loving unit, they give themselves over to each other in every respect, & in the sexual realm, are also free to express themselves for the bonding & happiness of each other.
I hate to have to repeat myself for I have already posted this to explain "as it is fit in the Lord". Do you use the KJV of the Bible and do you use the cross references? They do give you additional information. You seen to have trouble believing the scriptures. Look at the cross reference. It explains what "as it is fit in the Lord" means.
The following two verses give a man and his wife instructions not to sin. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" ( Colossians 3:18). This indicates a man and his wife can do what is unfit and the cross reference to "as it is fit in the Lord" refers one to Ephesians 5:3, "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not be once named among you." Throughout scripture many verses tell a man and his wife there is a form of sexual behavior they should not engage in. The cross reference tell us fornication is unfit for a man and his wife.
So, I looked at Colossians 3:18 in my KJV & it gives only a single cross reference, & that to Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
And to me, this cross reference seems more appropriate, as it is still the same (human) author (Paul) relating the same thought to both the Colossian & Ephesian Christians. And in Ephesians, Paul is stating his "fit in the Lord" is the same as his "unto the Lord".
If your KJV is directing you to Ephesians 5:3, then I'm sorry, I can't see the connection at all. May I ask which KJV you are using, whether it's a particular Study or Reference Bible? Mine is the Ryrie Study Bible. In asking that of you, I would be interested in any of the other readers of this thread to check their Bibles & see what the cross reference is to their Colossians 3:18 verse (whether similar to yours, mine, or another). I remained mystified to your cross reference & would like to do further examination on this.
Thank you for your comment. I will respond later as I'm away from my computer today. Adam has done well in giving you an accurate answer, but I will get back to you.
I understand Chris's comment just fine and agree. I think maybe you assumed something else.
For example you wrote: "How can a wife and her husband commit adultery with each other as you tell us they can.?"
They commit adultery by cheating on each other by sleeping with other partners. Obviously a married couple isn't sinning by being only with each other. Fornication means unmarried people are having relations.
I agree also Adam, how can they be fornication between husband and wife without a third party? MARILYN used Jude 1:7 to define fornication but the situation in Jude doesn't parallel with Adam and Eve,
Where is the husband and wife in Sodom and Gomorrah? Sodom and Gomorrah fornication was going after ""STRANGE"" flesh.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after ((((STRANGE flesh)))
Where is the strange flesh in the garden? Satan?
Or is she indirectly describing fornication the way she did in one of her earlier posts when she mentioned the type of sex Job didn't believe in?
She can directly clear this up but that would be uncomfortable,
So let's go back to the source of this topic.
MARILYN TELL US IN WHAT WAY DID ADAM AND EVE COMMIT FORNICATION?
The reason our children do not grow up holy is because we are only teaching one set of commandments. Moses gave us two sets. The missing set speaks of the weightier matters of the Law. There is a sin that is greater than other sins. For example those in Sodom and Gomorrah sin the greater sin. David's sin of adultery did not put him in S&G. Today, we are teaching the greater sin everywhere, on TV, Movies, within Christianity, our public schools, colleges and university's. Then we wring our hands and wonder where all the violence is coming from.
The book is Jude tells us those in S&G are twice dead. In Verse 12, they are said ti be "Twice dead."
Not just dead, not just once dead, but twice dead. They have broken the weightiest of the law.
In a simple definition, to be 'holy' is to be 'pure, morally blameless, set apart'. And we are "to be holy as God is Holy".
But to your other statements: given that you believe in abiding in & teaching Moses' Law, what is the 'other set of commandments' that is missing which we therefore fail to teach?
The "sin of Sodom & Gomorrah were greater (in matter & consequence)". Are you referring to Sodomy? But of course, this was not the only sin that came up before God as the city was given over to all manner of evil bringing on God's Judgement. And David's sin of adultery? No worse than sodomy?
Jude 12: those who were "twice dead" were not sodomites or anyone else, but to whom Jude refers to in verses 4, 8, 10-13 (ungodly men who used God's Grace to promote sin & who denied the Truth of the Father & the Son). They were not only dead by not producing 'edible fruit', but their root was rotten (twice dead). Nothing here about the "weightiest of the law" but simply carnal men doing the works of Satan.
So back to "our children": the teaching of the commandments don't make children (nor us) holy. Even if we were able to fully obey the Law, which we can't, we would still fall short of God's requirement of us, because all the commandments given was to show us our sin & total depravity before God ( Romans 7:5-25). All sin is sin & abominable to God, whether sodomy, adultery, theft, lies, an evil thought. No commandment, however properly taught & observed, even from childhood, can deal with our sin & corrupt nature. Our children don't need the Laws - they need to hear the Gospel from the earliest age of understanding, that they might know that Jesus alone saves them, that they might put their trust in Him alone.
A seed cannot produce fruit unless it dies. The dying of a seed happens quickly, by itself? Whereas the dying of the sinful nature of man, may take a life time. Hearing Gods voice in His word, we are growing, while our flesh is dying, all during this time of maturation! Jesus teaches us what takes place during this time of "sanctification". Wisdom and knowledge are the fruits given by His grace , some 20 fold, some 30, some 60 sixty fold found in the redemption of Him through faith in the word! The spiritual freedom we receive is the revelation found in Him. Their is an enemy of a government of the ungodly, who envy and wish to terminate His words! These things we see happening all over the world! These are the tares, beware of the tares, they soon shall be taken away and burned!
Fred, the Spirit is gracing you with his understanding and his wisdom. My reply is not so much to you; but to others who read and respect your comments. Our process of dying to the flesh and being made alive by the Spirit is described throughout the word of God, but most are hidden in parables, metaphors, similitudes, proverbs, etc. This is the Spirit's doing because without the SPIRIT you can't understand.
Example:
Zachariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague (spirit not natural) wherewith the Lord (Spirit) will smite ALL the people that fought (spiritually not naturally) against Jerusalem (spiritual not natural); Their flesh shall consume away (spiritually not naturally) while they stand upon their feet......FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Revelation is especially symbolic and hidden from natural eyes. It also describes how we die to the flesh.
Isaiah 9:5 For every (natural) battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in (natural) blood; but this (spiritual battle for the kingdom of heaven) shall be with (spiritual) burning and FUEL of (spiritual) fire.
Isaiah 9:19 .....and the people shall be as the FUEL of the (spiritual) fire.....
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord (Spirit) shall have washed away the FILTH or the daughters of (spiritual) mount Zion, and shall have purged the blood of (spiritual) Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the SPIRIT of judgement , and by the SPIRIT of burning.
Hebrews 12:29 For our GOD (SPIRIT) IS A CONSUMING (SPIRITUAL) FIRE.
Revelation 9:18 By these three was a third part of man (those called) killed (they died to the flesh), by the (spiritual) fire (Christ now in the form of the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit), and by the smoke, and by the brimstone.....
Revelation 20:5 But the REST OF THE DEAD (those who have not yet died to the flesh) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION (therefore there had to be a FIRST DEATH.
Hi Marilyn, Sorry I think you gravely err There is no other Christianity and there is no other Gospel!! The way you present that anyone of the characters you mentioned could have been the unblemished lamb that take away the sins of the world right?
There are many scriptures that tell us not to sin. Examples: ECC. 8:29, "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright: but they sought out many inventions."
Job 1:1, "...Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job was perfect and he feared God. To fear God is to hate evil as stated in Pro. 8:13, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil ." Job hated evil and he was perfect.
A person must leave uprightness to fall and walk in darkness. Pro. 2:13, "Who leave the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness." Yes, a person must leave being upright to walk in the fallen state of sin.
The story of Noah tells us that those in the Ark were Godly and those in the water were wicked. But you say there could be no one in the Ark, because all people are wicked.
God gives us good advice, Pro. 4:14, "Enter not into the paths of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men." It is a choose.
Thankyou Fred ,i needed that ! The only truth we can truley know and depend upon is the Bibleand the Word in it ,God is love ,the two greatest commandments are about love ,Jesus is the fulfillment of the law because of his love ,his love for God and his love for us ,God is truth ,Jesus is truth ,forever and ever ,we can smile .
We need a Christianity that will teach all people how to not fall. On my website I explain that more fully.
And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.. Now concerning the darkness you spoke of. John 1:4-12 . In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Paul here is using himself as an example for us all. Now all the characters you used were just, question is how was they just? " The just shall live by faith " .They were perfect, "meaning blameless" They were right in their relationship with God, They were taught to offer up sacrifices, " by faith Abel offered up a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, Abel sacrifice pointed to Christ, Cains was the works of his own hands. They all was justified by faith.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal3:10-24
I have yet to meet a family who was able to raise children from birth to adulthood, having not committed sin. We don't need a "Christianity that will teach all people how to not fall", we need to be more vibrant & vigilant in sharing the Gospel to all that they may not fall into the pit of Hell.
And 1 Corinthians 10:8 speaks about the 23,000 who 'DIED', not fell into sin. These were not 'upright' people at all - they were downright sinners altogether & were so judged.
So, they were certainly not "upright before they fell" - they were 'downright bad folk' whom God severely dealt with.
A person must leave being upright to walk in the fallen state of sin. And the sin of fornication makes a spiritual darkness on earth. Today the darkness is everywhere and is the condition that is responsible for all our social ills.
Then the question: who is an upright & righteous person? Is he a sinner that hasn't fallen into sin? Can such a person exist given the transmission of the sin nature to all? Do any of his other sins count as being equally heinous before God or only those of a sexual nature? Indeed, why just focus on this type of sin, when all other sins is equally abhorrent to God & which sends people to hell?
What do you think of the Christianity of today marrying and ordaining the homosexuals?
In the Christian love feasts/gatherings, they were spots (Gk. hidden reefs/rocks that cause shipwreck) against the solidness of the Church, appearing to bring worthwhile teaching but were just dry clouds, as trees with dried, dying fruit on them but also doubly dead with rotting root as well (roots that no longer bound the tree into the earth, but could easily be 'plucked up' with little effort), etc., etc. When you see this, "beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ". It may well be that these "filthy dreamers" were introducing fornication into the Church as well, supporting their teaching that gives permission to the appeal of the flesh, but the message of Jude is to beware of these men who are children of Satan & who do not come in the Name of the Lord, neither do they teach nor behave as children of Light.
"What do I think of Christianity today?" By & large, the Church is not in a good state - we have left some of the apostolic teaching, vibrancy & urgency to both the saved & the lost. The Church essentially has lost its witness & the World loves to have it this way - the World then can have no Divine pronouncement of Judgement against their wicked deeds. Jesus' message to the 7 Churches should also be given heed today. Hypocrisy & compromise are the Churches' leading errors & our abject failure to bring the requirements of God to the forefront of the secular world; & I refer to the failure of our fundamental, evangelical Churches. But to those Churches that entertain marriage of homosexuals, women clergy, ordination of women/homosexuals, & turning a blind eye to the same conditions of Sodom in our cities & maybe within the Church as well, (& with govts. pandering to homosexuals' demands, remain equally culpable before God), it would be like walking on the circumference of Hell. Indeed, the Church at large is in a mess, but there is still a remnant that are led of God's Spirit & are in anguish.
Actually, I meant 'physical death', as you mentioned those who "walk uprightly & if they then fall dead". If they're upright, then no death; if they fall, then death, is how I understand your statement. Or maybe, we need to define 'uprightness & righteousness' pertaining to how the upright might fall. And of course, death (both physical & spiritual) must come to us as we are sinners deserving of both. Had Adam not sinned, he would not have died in both ways. One day, I will die physically because of sin, but through Christ & God's Mercy, I will be spared spiritual death.
I know there are some sins more 'severe' than others, but the Bible doesn't differentiate that any 'lesser' sin committed can spare man from God's Judgement. You seem to have settled in your mind, that fornication is the 'ultimate, deadliest' sin. I don't know where you have learned this or maybe been a witness to such a tragedy that has deeply affected you. One can never discount this sin, but really, is it any greater than murder, theft, rape, deceit, hypocrisy, etc.? Is the murder of George Floyd any less or greater a murder than of an unborn child? Is the rampage & desecration of the Capitol any less or greater a crime than of one breaking in & destroying your home & privacy? All are sin before God: whether fornication of the most despicable sort or the lust conceived in the heart of man.
You quote Jude, but again, I feel that I need to share a little about the book, since you are seeing 'fornication' written all over it. Jude in verse 3 writes about those 'men, ungodly men, who crept into the Church'. Jude gives examples of God's past Judgements (as given to the Egyptians, the angels who rebelled along with Satan, & to Sodom). As with them, these ungodly men will not escape, these who have done the works of Cain (wrong hearts/motives/rebellion), of Balaam (greed), & of Core (Korah: insubordination, rebellious, desire to be prominent).
Romans 1; 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
When fornication ends all the sins above will end. Murder comes from the minds of the fornicators. Murder will end. It would be love for all humans to put an end to fornication, unnatural sex. It is the foundation of all our social ills.
"It is the foundation of all our social ills."
The Apostle Pall disagrees with you, "For the love of money is the root of all evil" 1Timothy 6:10
"But fornicationlet it not be once named among you, as becometh saints, Eph 5:3." If you call yourself a Christian you cannot commit fornication even once. Once is all it takes to be unholy-profane.
When looking at Jacob and Esau we learn that Esau was a fornicator. Was his problem the love of money or was it fornication? Heb 12:16 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."
I know the Bible says what you quoted but throughout the Bible sin is not the love of money. Sin is using the body in a way god forbids. We need to understand sin. The end of sin will bring heaven to earth.
'Are you saying Adam and Eve problem was that they loved money?"
Wealth is something in your life that becomes a part of your self image. Adam and Eve wanted/desired what they thought the fruit would give them, namely, wisdom/wealth. As Paul states, it is not the money itself, but the covetous desire first seen in Adam and Eve, and thereby the root of humanity. Instead of imparting wisdom, the fruit changed the status of Adam and Eve from living to dead to God. Shortly after uncovering their sin, God himself gave wisdom to Adam and Eve, in the understanding that accompanied the blood sacrifice for their acceptable coverings, all of God and out of his graciousness.
"I know the Bible says what you quoted but"
That little three letter word "but" tells me you are more interested in pushing your own thoughts, rather than listening to the Bible.
You never answered the dispute you have with Peter, Paul and John on the sinlessness of Jesus. Are they wrong or are your suppositions wrong?
Even with the Romans passage you've quoted, fornication has been 'forced' into its meaning. Why was "the Wrath of God revealed from Heaven?" Because in their darkened hearts, they chose to worship the creation rather than their Creator: idolatry was their sin, not fornication. And because of their idolatry, God gave them up to the other sins of: various lusts, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, envy, murder, etc. Sins do not start from fornication - Adam did not fornicate: he had a natural beautiful relationship with his newly created wife until the great deception came upon them. Fornication cannot take place within marriage - if there is unfaithfulness, then it's called adultery.
You have every right to present your views but as you can see, you will get very little or no support to them, at least from those who have some knowledge of the Bible. Do you really believe that such views as you hold could ever convince us that fornication is the root of all sin? One would have to throw out the intent of a whole lot of Scripture to entertain your views. And you've chosen not to further debate my presentation of the earlier Scriptures you've given: rather you should have eagerly challenged me over them & defended your understanding if you're truly serious about conveying your sincere beliefs. I hope that with the time we've spent on this, that you may read the Word differently.
How do you explain the following?
The following verse gives a man and his wife instructions not to sin. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" ( Colossians 3:18). This indicates a man and his wife can do what is unfit and the cross reference to "as it is fit in the Lord" refers one to Ephesians 5:3, "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not be once named among you." Throughout scripture many verses tell a man and his wife there is a form of sexual behavior they should not engage in.
Fornication is clearly defined in Jude 1:7 as being the sex in Sodom and Gomorrah. "Sodom and Gomorrah giving themselves over to fornicationare set forth for an example." So we can see that God forbids all men and women, including husbands and wives to use their bodies for fornication. This truth is reinforced and made clear in 1 Corinthians 6:13 where it declares, "The body is not made for fornication, but for the Lord.
How can a wife and her husband commit adultery with each other as you tell us they can.?
Can you supply supporting Scriptures to show that a husband & wife should be avoiding forms of sexual behaviour? Your quoting of Jude 7 is correct regarding 'fornication', but to then apply that example to husbands & wives is not only a 'long stretch', but quite inaccurate, as Adam & Richard have well explained. I can admit to the possibility of rape within marriage, when force is used for sexual gratification, but a husband & wife are "no longer two, but one flesh" ( Matthew 19:5,6). As a single loving unit, they give themselves over to each other in every respect, & in the sexual realm, are also free to express themselves for the bonding & happiness of each other.
The following two verses give a man and his wife instructions not to sin. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" ( Colossians 3:18). This indicates a man and his wife can do what is unfit and the cross reference to "as it is fit in the Lord" refers one to Ephesians 5:3, "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not be once named among you." Throughout scripture many verses tell a man and his wife there is a form of sexual behavior they should not engage in. The cross reference tell us fornication is unfit for a man and his wife.
And to me, this cross reference seems more appropriate, as it is still the same (human) author (Paul) relating the same thought to both the Colossian & Ephesian Christians. And in Ephesians, Paul is stating his "fit in the Lord" is the same as his "unto the Lord".
If your KJV is directing you to Ephesians 5:3, then I'm sorry, I can't see the connection at all. May I ask which KJV you are using, whether it's a particular Study or Reference Bible? Mine is the Ryrie Study Bible. In asking that of you, I would be interested in any of the other readers of this thread to check their Bibles & see what the cross reference is to their Colossians 3:18 verse (whether similar to yours, mine, or another). I remained mystified to your cross reference & would like to do further examination on this.
For example you wrote: "How can a wife and her husband commit adultery with each other as you tell us they can.?"
They commit adultery by cheating on each other by sleeping with other partners. Obviously a married couple isn't sinning by being only with each other. Fornication means unmarried people are having relations.
Where is the husband and wife in Sodom and Gomorrah? Sodom and Gomorrah fornication was going after ""STRANGE"" flesh.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after ((((STRANGE flesh)))
Where is the strange flesh in the garden? Satan?
Or is she indirectly describing fornication the way she did in one of her earlier posts when she mentioned the type of sex Job didn't believe in?
She can directly clear this up but that would be uncomfortable,
So let's go back to the source of this topic.
MARILYN TELL US IN WHAT WAY DID ADAM AND EVE COMMIT FORNICATION?
The book is Jude tells us those in S&G are twice dead. In Verse 12, they are said ti be "Twice dead."
Not just dead, not just once dead, but twice dead. They have broken the weightiest of the law.
Can you explain Holy? What makes a person Holy?
But to your other statements: given that you believe in abiding in & teaching Moses' Law, what is the 'other set of commandments' that is missing which we therefore fail to teach?
The "sin of Sodom & Gomorrah were greater (in matter & consequence)". Are you referring to Sodomy? But of course, this was not the only sin that came up before God as the city was given over to all manner of evil bringing on God's Judgement. And David's sin of adultery? No worse than sodomy?
Jude 12: those who were "twice dead" were not sodomites or anyone else, but to whom Jude refers to in verses 4, 8, 10-13 (ungodly men who used God's Grace to promote sin & who denied the Truth of the Father & the Son). They were not only dead by not producing 'edible fruit', but their root was rotten (twice dead). Nothing here about the "weightiest of the law" but simply carnal men doing the works of Satan.
So back to "our children": the teaching of the commandments don't make children (nor us) holy. Even if we were able to fully obey the Law, which we can't, we would still fall short of God's requirement of us, because all the commandments given was to show us our sin & total depravity before God ( Romans 7:5-25). All sin is sin & abominable to God, whether sodomy, adultery, theft, lies, an evil thought. No commandment, however properly taught & observed, even from childhood, can deal with our sin & corrupt nature. Our children don't need the Laws - they need to hear the Gospel from the earliest age of understanding, that they might know that Jesus alone saves them, that they might put their trust in Him alone.
Example:
Zachariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague (spirit not natural) wherewith the Lord (Spirit) will smite ALL the people that fought (spiritually not naturally) against Jerusalem (spiritual not natural); Their flesh shall consume away (spiritually not naturally) while they stand upon their feet......FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Revelation is especially symbolic and hidden from natural eyes. It also describes how we die to the flesh.
Isaiah 9:5 For every (natural) battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in (natural) blood; but this (spiritual battle for the kingdom of heaven) shall be with (spiritual) burning and FUEL of (spiritual) fire.
Isaiah 9:19 .....and the people shall be as the FUEL of the (spiritual) fire.....
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord (Spirit) shall have washed away the FILTH or the daughters of (spiritual) mount Zion, and shall have purged the blood of (spiritual) Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the SPIRIT of judgement , and by the SPIRIT of burning.
Hebrews 12:29 For our GOD (SPIRIT) IS A CONSUMING (SPIRITUAL) FIRE.
Revelation 9:18 By these three was a third part of man (those called) killed (they died to the flesh), by the (spiritual) fire (Christ now in the form of the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit), and by the smoke, and by the brimstone.....
Revelation 20:5 But the REST OF THE DEAD (those who have not yet died to the flesh) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION (therefore there had to be a FIRST DEATH.
May the Spirit grace you.
Job 1:1, "...Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job was perfect and he feared God. To fear God is to hate evil as stated in Pro. 8:13, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil ." Job hated evil and he was perfect.
A person must leave uprightness to fall and walk in darkness. Pro. 2:13, "Who leave the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness." Yes, a person must leave being upright to walk in the fallen state of sin.
The story of Noah tells us that those in the Ark were Godly and those in the water were wicked. But you say there could be no one in the Ark, because all people are wicked.
God gives us good advice, Pro. 4:14, "Enter not into the paths of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men." It is a choose.
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