Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Al on Isaiah 64
    Where does the bible promise you that your soul will go to Heaven when you die? or conversely that a soul will go to hell when the wicked die? How were people saved before there was a savior?....how did Eve know what part(s) or her body to cover with fig leaves?...thank you
  • Chris - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Though there are many Scriptures to support the after life & into eternity with God, there are very few that can fully support the immediate passage of the spirit & soul after death takes its grip. Clear portions, as Mishael has showed, about the penitent thief & Lazarus are often used & I would add to his list: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8. Herein, we see Paul's hope that when his "earthly tabernacle is dissolved" (or, passed away in death), God will provide a heavenly one. In fact, he says that he is confident (convinced) that while we're in this body on Earth, thus we're absent from the Lord. Rather, his desire was to be absent from his body (leave his mortal body behind at death), & be found in the Lord's presence. To me, these verses & those others given, show that at death, the spirit that cannot be destroyed by death does not linger aimlessly near a grave or under water, but returns to God Who gave it. For those who've rejected Christ, their spirits too are held captive awaiting coming judgement.

    All people can ONLY be saved by FAITH: faith being the implicit trust & looking to God to save them though not having seen Him. For the Jew, they received the Law from God & though none could fully obey its demands, it served to show them there sin, the need for sacrifice & of course, a faith that looked only to God & looked forward to God to provide a better Sacrifice. Most Jews didn't do this, though some did (Hebrews 11) but God is the Judge of their hearts. For those without the Law (Gentiles), the laws written within us condemned us (Romans 2:12-16) & we have to stand before God on that basis &/or the rejection of God's Sacrifice. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12). And of course, we receive Him only by faith, not by works or sacrifice.

    I can't answer your last question; it must be something wired in us to know what & where 'our shame' (our less honourable) body parts are.
  • Al - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Sir, there are over 4,000 promises in the Bible yet nobody has yet found the one that says your soul will go to Heaven upon death of the body....or the other way around, to hell at death.....actually sir, the Bible says you are a soul, combination of body and spirit or "breath of life"....it has been twisted to try and prove we go somewhere after death.....however the Bible says over and over we shall sleep until the second coming....check it in 1 Cor. 15;50....when you die, the soul is no longer in existence and the spirit, or breath returns to God, "who gave it".....every spirit returns....

    Also, we must search deep to get to the truths revealed therein ......when was this burning hell created?.....which of the six days?......and God saw that they were good.....answer, it was not created yet.....the words used for hell refer to the grave, Gehenna a literal place on earth and one work tartaroo that refers to angels only....it's all there if you want to really learn what is being taught....

    Many have the wrong idea about where Jesus went after he was crucified....he went to the grave for three days....take time to look up John 20 verse 17....."Touch me not for I am not yet ascended to my Father"....this was 3 days after he died....OK, enough for now....stay safe Sir
  • Chris - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Page 2.

    Re: Hell. In the Bible the words used for Hell can be applied to both grave & a place of torment. In Genesis 37:35 we see the word 'Sheol' used. In Luke 16:23, Hades is used. Both words can be depicted as Hell, but its application calls for one being a grave & the other, a place of torment. As also with 'Gehenna': it may have had its roots in the Valley of Hinnom where the atrocities of human burning took place, but in Scripture (Matthew 5:22, Luke 12:5) & references in Revelation 19,20 clearly speaks of a place other than that near Jerusalem where eternal torment of those judged unworthy to partake of God's Kingdom. I've only given a few Scriptures on this for want of space.

    And yes, Jesus was in the grave (sepulchre, 'mnemeion') for three days before appearing to Mary. Blessings.
  • Chris - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Page 1.

    Thank you Al for your comments. I do understand what you're saying here & there are subjects in the Bible that are not given full treatment as we would like - maybe for a reason. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul prayed for the believers, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". For some reason, Paul thought to include their complete being in his prayer ("spirit, soul & body") & clearly of the three, the body is what is apparent to us & others, & Jesus also expressed in Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now these Scriptures don't show the passage of the spirit after death, but to show that man does have a soul & spirit & the body is the visible vessel in which these abide.

    1 Cor 15:50 speaks of the impossibility of man in his mortal body to enter Heaven. But when that body is changed from being in a corrupt state to an incorrupt state, then it will be outfitted for Heaven. Verses 52, 53 show that that which is corruptible will be raised incorruptible, for corruption must put on incorruption & mortal put on immortality. If the word "sleep", a euphemism for 'death', is applied to a body devoid of soul & spirit (i.e. the soul disappears altogether & the spirit (breath) returns to God) then what is the purpose for the resurrection of a body from the grave that is devoid of further life? But if God gives it life, where does it come from? Is this life from the grave of a different personality to the former?
  • Hugo Zyl - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    God bless you brother Al

    I respond to you question about how Eve knew which parts of her body to cover.

    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a symbol for sin/unbelief. The serpent (which was an upright walking creature between human and animal) seduced Eve to eat from the tree. The euphemism of the "fruit" is a symbol for sex. The serpent had sex with Eve. She took this "fruit" to Adam, and they ate. Afterwards they knew they were naked because of the effect of the lust. Therefore they made garment of leaves to cover their sexual organs. Later Eve bore the children. Cain was the son of the serpent. Abel was the son of Adam.

    For more on this topic you can research the doctrine of the Serpent's Seed.

    God be with you in Christ
  • Adam - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    How do you discern truth from a lie? Have you prayed to God and asked if what you said about Eve and satan is true? Because it's not in the Bible and if it's not there, where else would it come from? Definitely doesn't come from God, but since satan is the father of lies and spreads falsehoods regularly, how can you be 100% sure you haven't been deceived yourself?
  • Hugo Zyl - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    God bless you brother Adam; nice to be able to respond to you again.

    By the mercy of God I have been able to live a Christian life for about 12 years now, and have been believing in the doctrine of the Serpent Seed for all of those years. I have not found anything unscriptural about it; in contrast, it perfectly dove-tails with the rest of the Bible, which is how I know it to be accurate.

    Other ideas about the fall of man will not be able to dove-tail with the rest of Scripture. For example: if eating a literal fruit caused sin then why did God require blood as a sacrifice for sin?

    If you would like to have an even deeper understanding of God's wonderful plan and purpose in Christ, consider reading up about the doctrine of the serpent seed which has unfortunately been lost to the mainstream Christians.

    Peace and love in Christ
  • Al - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Interesting but strange comment on the snake...never heard that one before.....not Biblically accurate though....good luck
  • Hugo Zyl - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Blessings brother Al

    Just wanted to answer your question according to my understanding. :-D

    (Did not say anything about a snake though)

    Love in Christ
  • Rightly Divide the Word of Truth - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    I hope you know that most of us know the Book of Genesis, also. Much of what you posted is unscriptural.

    If you read it at a snails speed, you might see your errors.

    Your allegations about Eve having sex with anyone other than her husband (whom to God performed the first marriage), Is also unscriptural. Try reading all of the Geneologies. Cain is recorded as Adams firstborn.

    Isaiah 14:12-16 (description of satan)

    11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. (Suit of worms)

    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL be like the most High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    16 THEY THAT SEE THEE shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man (devil) that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

    No offense intended, but I find your fixation on nakedness, wantoness, adultery and covering sex organs, shocking.

    The entire Bible is about Jesus: Genesis to the last verse in Revelation. In fact, Revelation 22:18-19, tells us NOT TO ADD TO or, TO TAKE AWAY FROM, anything written in the Bible. To persist will get your part taken out of the Book of Life.

    I'll end with this scripture:

    Acts 19:15

    And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?

    Mishael
  • Hugo Zyl - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    God bless you brother Mishael

    Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond in detail to what I wrote. Please do not for a moment consider that I think I know more than another brother. That is certainly not what I was in any way implying.

    Please provide evidence that Cain is recorded as Adam's firstborn. I have never seen this in the Bible. The genealogy of Adam goes through Seth very clearly. (This is of course because Abel was killed, and because Cain was not Adam's son) Also in Jude 1:14 (And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these...) the Bible would be wrong if Cain was Adam's son because then Enoch would have been the eighth, not seventh.

    Please provide evidence that I am fixated on nakedness, wantoness, adultery and covering sex organs. I was simply responding to another brother's question. Nor do I remember having mentioned sex before in any of the 30-odd comments I have been able to make on this Godly discussion board.

    You write "The entire Bible is about Jesus: Genesis to the last verse in Revelation". God bless you for knowing that. It is certainly true. Amen. Notice what our Lord said to the Pharisees in John chapter 8: Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. /// Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they are like the children of the serpent seed (Cain's line). The Pharisees reply that they are not born of fornication (No, they are not like the children of the serpent who fornicated with Eve). This is just one example of the many Many MANY references to the serpent seed found throughtout the Bible.

    Dear brother, if you would like to grow even more in your loving understanding of our Lord's purpose for us, please do consider reading up about the serpent seed doctrine.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ
  • Richard in Christ - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Hello brother Hugo,

    I hope I'm not stepping on Mishael's feet but just felt to post, a couple things, on the conversation you were having. So as you say "provide evidence" Genesis 4:1 is all I can give you. As along with in Genesis 4:25 Adam "knew" his wife and bore a son. About how you state "fruit" means "sex", or how you perceive it, just does not fit for me. Clearly they are speaking of eating fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. That God told them not to eat lest they will surely die. What about when the "serpent" says to Eve "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Then she replies to him about eating fruit of the garden just not of the "certain" tree. Genesis 3:1-3. I can't see mixing this up with Eve having intercourse with(if that's what you portray) the "serpent". And about saying the genealogy would be wrong if Cain was Eve's first is incorrect. It would be the same as genealogies go off the "children of". As Cain has his own genealogy.

    I guess one other thing I can state is in the Book of Enoch. Enoch was taken, on a tour, and actually was shown the Tree of Knowledge in a garden. A tree with fruit. I know not a lot of people believe in the Book of Enoch but I find many things in it that connect directly to our Holy Bible.

    Maybe this whole thing with the "serpent seed" is really just a way to say someone is still living a very sinful and godless lifestyle. Which I would just categorize someone who has not been saved by Jesus Christ yet or still stuck in the "world". And I believe the Lord can save anyone, even the most wretched person. Instead of saying someone is of "serpent seed" I'd rather just say they haven't been saved yet or are not with the Lord. The whole "serpent seed" story was made up by someone and can not be proven. Just as many other things cannot be proven.

    I'll stop here. God Bless you Hugo. Please don't take this harshly.
  • Chris - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Hi Richard, if one looks at this 'Serpent Seed' doctrine, we see that this nothing new. This teaching was seen in the Gnostic writings, chiefly the Gospel of Philip. The early Church father, Irenaeus, was aware of this teaching which he declared as heresy. But it continued to be seen, & in more recent times given more exposure by the likes of some American religious leaders (Daniel Parker, William Branham, & Arnold Murray). Even some adherents to the white supremacist theology (called, Christian Identity) make a claim that the Jews are descended from the serpent.

    This is not the place to denounce these people but I was truly concerned about this teaching (& other non-Scriptural ones) that has been going over the centuries, where even women were blamed for causing men to sin (probably because of Eve's relationship to Satan), that Cain's descendants were masquerading as scientists & the educated, & in Branham's case, that he was a reincarnation of John the Baptist coming to herald the return of the Lord Jesus. Branham died in 1965 & we still wait.

    So I get very grieved for folk who willingly fall for false teaching & absurdities, seeking in their zeal to learn more of God's Mind in the Bible, but are forced to re-interpret Scripture to fill in the missing links. As I've always maintained, the Bible must be read in its proper, natural way, intended way. When there are allegories, parables or image depictions given, then usually a clear understanding is also given with it. Where no information is given or something is hidden, then it needs to remain so. The problem arises when that which is "hidden or obscure" is then given 'new light' which often remains incompatible with the rest of Scripture. And then in reality, this becomes another Word of (or, from) God, & so we end up with a proliferation of teaching that is not only foreign to the Holy Word, but also becomes another tool from Satan to divert the seeking soul away from Truth & into judgement.
  • Bendito Palavra - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Good information, Chris. Brings to mind 2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
  • Chris - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Thank you Bendito: a very apt & compelling Scripture.
  • Genealogies and False Teachers Prophets - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Thank you, Richard.

    I choose to stand on what is stated in Revelation 22:18-19. Most arguments seem to come from not accepting what has been written down: genealogy proofs that God has faithfully recorded. I think God knew people would try to twist the Genealogies to suit their false teaching.

    There is our proof.

    Mishael
  • Lionjudah - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    Who told u were sinning? Carnal not spiritual any more? Flesh..
  • Also Read Ezekiel 18 Mishael - in Reply on Isaiah 64
    Some believe that while Jesus' body was in the tomb, His spirit was in hell. Scripture does not support that position when it is taken in context and we look at the meaning of the word "hell." In the Old Testament, the place of the dead or the place of departed souls was called "Sheol." It was to this place that all souls of the dead went to await resurrection.

    In the New Testament, we find the story of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and went to Hades (Luke 16:19-31). The King James translates the Greek word "hades" as hell but most other translations use the Greek word. Hades had two separated parts. Those who died in faith believing in God's promise waited for the resurrection in Abraham's Bosom. Those who died spiritually separated from God wait in torment for the resurrection unto death, or eternal separation from God. The rich man was on the torment side and Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom, which was called "paradise" by the LORD Jesus Christ when He addressed the thief who found faith the day Jesus was crucified (Luke 23:42-43)

    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter 2:4). The word translated "hell" here is not the Greek word "hades" but is the Greek word "tartarus" meaning abyss or the lowest regions. This could very well be the "gulf" that was fixed between the place of torment and Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:26).

    Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fulfill all things" (Ephesians 4:8-10). Leading captivity captive refers to Jesus taking all those that waited in Paradise to heaven to be with Him. The descending into the "lower parts" then refers to Jesus mission of declaring victor


 

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