As I saw your question I feel to just put some info I've found about this. I believe the first death means our physical death. The second death is pertaining to if we are thrown into the lake of fire after the final judgement.
The thing I feel to post is this. The KJV Bible has taken five different words, two Hebrew, three Greek, and just replaced them all with "Hell". This is one thing you find when comparing our Bible to the original Hebrew or Greek texts. The two Hebrew words(phonetic) "min" and "shehole". "Min" used only four times seems to be used like "hence" or away from. Sheole used 31 times for "grave" and made to say "hell" 27 times. Three times for "pit". Now the Greek(New Testament) uses the words "Gehenna" or "Valley of Hinnom", which is a literal place in Israel, then "Hades" changed 10 times into "hell" and once for "grave". Then "Tartarus" which is used only once which seems to be the deepest abyss where the fallen angels are being held.
I'll end with this. I believe the person who does not accept the free gift of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, will not suffer for eternity. As the devil, maybe fallen angels and whatnot, have been destined to. I believe they(people) will have to suffer a second death and perish. God is love. I do not believe He would ever see it fair to have a human who lived maybe only 70 years on earth, was lied to their whole lives, making mistakes, and to punish that person into eternal pain and suffering. The Lord does not want any to perish as He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He wants all to repent, turn from, their evil ways and live.
God Bless everyone in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Richard, with all due respect to your understanding of Scripture, but I would direct you to Luke 16:19-31, and specifically, verse 23: "And in hell (Gk. Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." And verse 28: "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
And Mark 9:43,44: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (Gk. geennan, or Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
This is the sad state of all those who reject Christ & His Gospel - eternal torment awaits them & for this cause the Gospel has to be preached so that men may know the Truth & flee the torment to come. Let's not get trapped in the JW teaching of only death awaiting the sinner - if only ultimately death with little or no suffering, then why flee to the One Who gave His Life to save us from God's Wrath & Judgement. As I ask this to the JWs who visit me (or, used to visit), what then is your Gospel? Is it only to be able to be a part of God's Kingdom or perish into the dust if we reject the Gospel? There's nothing to flee from. If that was the choice given to me, I doubt if I would be moved to convert - yes, it would be lovely to experience eternal life with the Lord, but if it meant that the other option was just to disappear into the earth, then that's not much reason to change my lifestyle. Many believe that now: that there's no God & nothing after the grave. I came to the Lord because of the Spirit's Work of conviction in my heart, of Who God is & that His Judgements against the sinner are certain & that there is eternal suffering for those who reject His offer. It would be lovely to think that a sinner can eventually find freedom from torment but for Revelation 21:8.
"Who he for knew he also did predestinate". Through faith,these words convince me that when we have been called, there becomes a predisposition of who we are and who we will become in this world and the world to come . God has set his own parameters , as you have said " who are we to judge eternal matters!" Is it not enough to believe and live a life unto Him who has died for us? We should humble ourselves before the throne of God! How Satan weaves his discourse into a mans heart, those who deceive themselves who trust not His word. In the beginning was the word! This is the revelation of our creator found in Jesus Christ! In him is the light! God Bless you!
Knowing you and I have a couple views we look differently upon. You are very knowledgeable in the Word of God and I respect you very much. Please don't think I'm affiliated with any group, like JW. As no person, or church, has taught me of or lead me to the Lord. The Holy Bible and what I've experienced, along with receiving the Holy Spirit, is all I have. Now being in a relationship with our Eternal Father and Jesus Christ is all I'll ever need.
I'm really sorry if my post got to you a little but that is what I feel. I know I could be wrong. To shed a little on a thought of mine: so what if someone lives their life, never was taught the gospel or about Jesus Christ, was a ok person with a good heart, and lost their life in some way. Or with how much lies and deception by satan in this world. If a person was just engulfed in lies their whole life, just enslaved, and never got a chance to believe in the Lord because they were so weak and suffered their whole life. I can't believe our loving Father would ever condemn them to eternal punishment because of how wicked this world is.
Of coarse I'm not the judge and don't make those decisions. I'll try to keep these things to myself as I don't want to irritate anyone. Especially you Chris.
And please don't hold back on such 'sensitive/debatable' matters - others have shared some strange things in the past without adequate biblical support. It's all good for our discussion & learning & I particularly brought it up knowing your zeal for learning more from the Word & to be more like your Saviour. The Lord be with your spirit Richard.
Their faith which looked ahead & our faith also had to ultimately rest on a better Sacrifice bringing in a better Covenant ( Hebrews 7:19,22). Their faith had to find its hope in Jesus, God's Sacrifice, as ours also, post-Cross, does. Their justification & ours also rest in the Holy One from God. There has been no other way for anyone to be cleansed, forgiven & accepted. To the Gentile unreached with the Gospel, Romans 2:12-16 speaks of these who are also subject to the law written within them & by this law they are judged & will perish, as the law accuses them or they find excuse to sin. But why should they be condemned if Christ is not preached to them? Again, are there any readied by God to go to them so they might hear & believe? We have heard of accounts of tribes so grateful for the Gospel to come, as their hearts have been prepared to look for & receive it. Then there have been those who have been violent to the message, bringing death to the messenger. Those such as Jim Elliot & his four companions reaching out to the Huaorani tribe in Ecuador; or John Chau missionary to the Sentinelese people in the Andaman Islands (off the E. Indian coast) were all martyred for Jesus.
Or, to the good, decent people we know of, yet never moved to hear or respond to the Gospel. Will their decency & goodness be sufficient to save them in spite of sin? Romans 6:23 and Titus 3:5,6, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". Even 'all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags' in God's Sight, so as much as we would long & hope for the ultimate saving of even those still without Christ even in death, I believe the Scripture is clear that a person's response to the Cross in this life determines his fate & sadly that fate is both horrible & eternal.
The Lord bless you Richard. Your words were very gracious & well thought through & I can see the dilemma that is before us when we consider that there are those who have lived carefully also showing love to others in their lives & not committing some dreadful sin. Or even others who have been engulfed in deception or waylaid by false teachers, never having the chance to receive knowledge of the Truth. These are indeed sad situations for which we aren't privy to the actions of God with them. We are tasked to share the Good News, the Spirit often directing us to the one who has been ordained to Life, even as Romans 10:13,14 clearly teaches us.
Each person through the ages has had to give an account of himself to God. For the Jew, his obedience to the Law was where his salvation lay, but the Law rather showed him that he failed in his obedience & that repentance & sacrifice was required. Even though the offering of the blood of bulls & goats could never secure God's forgiveness, his coming with a contrite heart, true sorrow for sin, & faith in a merciful God, secured him forgiveness & acceptance. Thus the Hebrews writer demonstrates this in chapter 11 that God looked for faith as the essence for acceptability. "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided SOME BETTER THING FOR US, that they without us should not be made perfect." ( Heb 11:39,40).
Lastly. The most important thing, I believe, people should know of is the reality of Jesus Christ and the love of God our Father. To have people like you, and others "born again", is quite the glorious gift from the Lord. That we, with the Holy Spirit, can continue His ministry that He came here to earth to teach us. As none of us chose Him, He chose us all. As He knows our hearts. "No servant is greater than his lord".
Really, thank you very much again Chris. For being so kind in your reply. God Bless you my brother in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. You are always in my prayers.
Your attitude & heart's response to those without Christ on this side of the grave, was very special to read & worthy of praise to the Lord for His Work of Grace & Humility that He has done, & is doing, in your life. That in very truth ought to be the attitude of every Spirit-filled child of God, looking not in condemnation on the evil in others, but recognizing the great deception that they're under with their resulting follies, for which their only healing balm can be faith in the shed Blood of Jesus. And even to pray for those who hate or persecute us does indeed take a great measure of love & compassion for them, which only can come from the Spirit of Love & Grace. And with such a Spirit, how can one ever wish for the suffering of another whether in life or death. May we, as we study the operation of God, as One Holy, Merciful & Just, lead us into His Truth that we may both love & warn others accordingly. May the Spirit of Christ be your ever-present Help & Guide Richard, in your life which is in Christ, in God.
Thank you so very much for your warm reply my brother. I really appreciate it. As having anyone to converse about the Lord with is a Blessing to me. What I myself feel most important is, with scriptures in OT, how the lovingkindness, mercy, grace, and compassion of God is so great. And it endureth forever. How His thoughts, and ways, are so high above our ways. Then reading of the teachings of Jesus Christ of say "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you". In Luke "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."
Things like these are truly moving to me and make me feel so humble. His love is so great it is marvelous. As I have seen a person on death row who was an ex satan worshipper. Killed his mother and father along with another person. He was speaking out on how real satan worship was. At the end he stated that the only way out is Jesus Christ. Trying to help others pointing them toward the Lord. As clearly he had an experience with Christ. Seeing things like this and how many other wicked people the Lord will save, to now have them on His side, is amazing.
My love and forgiveness goes out to everyone. Even the most wicked people have my prayers. The only thing I look down upon is satan and evil itself. Not people. The Lord can save anyone. I do not wish harm or bad on anyone. Especially I would not want someone to be tortured forever. As we know the only one given the right to be the Judge is Jesus Christ. And if I am wrong, and my love is too great, the Lord will guide me where He wants me.
As I saw your question I feel to just put some info I've found about this. I believe the first death means our physical death. The second death is pertaining to if we are thrown into the lake of fire after the final judgement.
The thing I feel to post is this. The KJV Bible has taken five different words, two Hebrew, three Greek, and just replaced them all with "Hell". This is one thing you find when comparing our Bible to the original Hebrew or Greek texts. The two Hebrew words(phonetic) "min" and "shehole". "Min" used only four times seems to be used like "hence" or away from. Sheole used 31 times for "grave" and made to say "hell" 27 times. Three times for "pit". Now the Greek(New Testament) uses the words "Gehenna" or "Valley of Hinnom", which is a literal place in Israel, then "Hades" changed 10 times into "hell" and once for "grave". Then "Tartarus" which is used only once which seems to be the deepest abyss where the fallen angels are being held.
I'll end with this. I believe the person who does not accept the free gift of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, will not suffer for eternity. As the devil, maybe fallen angels and whatnot, have been destined to. I believe they(people) will have to suffer a second death and perish. God is love. I do not believe He would ever see it fair to have a human who lived maybe only 70 years on earth, was lied to their whole lives, making mistakes, and to punish that person into eternal pain and suffering. The Lord does not want any to perish as He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He wants all to repent, turn from, their evil ways and live.
God Bless everyone in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
And Mark 9:43,44: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (Gk. geennan, or Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
This is the sad state of all those who reject Christ & His Gospel - eternal torment awaits them & for this cause the Gospel has to be preached so that men may know the Truth & flee the torment to come. Let's not get trapped in the JW teaching of only death awaiting the sinner - if only ultimately death with little or no suffering, then why flee to the One Who gave His Life to save us from God's Wrath & Judgement. As I ask this to the JWs who visit me (or, used to visit), what then is your Gospel? Is it only to be able to be a part of God's Kingdom or perish into the dust if we reject the Gospel? There's nothing to flee from. If that was the choice given to me, I doubt if I would be moved to convert - yes, it would be lovely to experience eternal life with the Lord, but if it meant that the other option was just to disappear into the earth, then that's not much reason to change my lifestyle. Many believe that now: that there's no God & nothing after the grave. I came to the Lord because of the Spirit's Work of conviction in my heart, of Who God is & that His Judgements against the sinner are certain & that there is eternal suffering for those who reject His offer. It would be lovely to think that a sinner can eventually find freedom from torment but for Revelation 21:8.
Knowing you and I have a couple views we look differently upon. You are very knowledgeable in the Word of God and I respect you very much. Please don't think I'm affiliated with any group, like JW. As no person, or church, has taught me of or lead me to the Lord. The Holy Bible and what I've experienced, along with receiving the Holy Spirit, is all I have. Now being in a relationship with our Eternal Father and Jesus Christ is all I'll ever need.
I'm really sorry if my post got to you a little but that is what I feel. I know I could be wrong. To shed a little on a thought of mine: so what if someone lives their life, never was taught the gospel or about Jesus Christ, was a ok person with a good heart, and lost their life in some way. Or with how much lies and deception by satan in this world. If a person was just engulfed in lies their whole life, just enslaved, and never got a chance to believe in the Lord because they were so weak and suffered their whole life. I can't believe our loving Father would ever condemn them to eternal punishment because of how wicked this world is.
Of coarse I'm not the judge and don't make those decisions. I'll try to keep these things to myself as I don't want to irritate anyone. Especially you Chris.
God Bless.
And please don't hold back on such 'sensitive/debatable' matters - others have shared some strange things in the past without adequate biblical support. It's all good for our discussion & learning & I particularly brought it up knowing your zeal for learning more from the Word & to be more like your Saviour. The Lord be with your spirit Richard.
Their faith which looked ahead & our faith also had to ultimately rest on a better Sacrifice bringing in a better Covenant ( Hebrews 7:19,22). Their faith had to find its hope in Jesus, God's Sacrifice, as ours also, post-Cross, does. Their justification & ours also rest in the Holy One from God. There has been no other way for anyone to be cleansed, forgiven & accepted. To the Gentile unreached with the Gospel, Romans 2:12-16 speaks of these who are also subject to the law written within them & by this law they are judged & will perish, as the law accuses them or they find excuse to sin. But why should they be condemned if Christ is not preached to them? Again, are there any readied by God to go to them so they might hear & believe? We have heard of accounts of tribes so grateful for the Gospel to come, as their hearts have been prepared to look for & receive it. Then there have been those who have been violent to the message, bringing death to the messenger. Those such as Jim Elliot & his four companions reaching out to the Huaorani tribe in Ecuador; or John Chau missionary to the Sentinelese people in the Andaman Islands (off the E. Indian coast) were all martyred for Jesus.
Or, to the good, decent people we know of, yet never moved to hear or respond to the Gospel. Will their decency & goodness be sufficient to save them in spite of sin? Romans 6:23 and Titus 3:5,6, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". Even 'all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags' in God's Sight, so as much as we would long & hope for the ultimate saving of even those still without Christ even in death, I believe the Scripture is clear that a person's response to the Cross in this life determines his fate & sadly that fate is both horrible & eternal.
The Lord bless you Richard. Your words were very gracious & well thought through & I can see the dilemma that is before us when we consider that there are those who have lived carefully also showing love to others in their lives & not committing some dreadful sin. Or even others who have been engulfed in deception or waylaid by false teachers, never having the chance to receive knowledge of the Truth. These are indeed sad situations for which we aren't privy to the actions of God with them. We are tasked to share the Good News, the Spirit often directing us to the one who has been ordained to Life, even as Romans 10:13,14 clearly teaches us.
Each person through the ages has had to give an account of himself to God. For the Jew, his obedience to the Law was where his salvation lay, but the Law rather showed him that he failed in his obedience & that repentance & sacrifice was required. Even though the offering of the blood of bulls & goats could never secure God's forgiveness, his coming with a contrite heart, true sorrow for sin, & faith in a merciful God, secured him forgiveness & acceptance. Thus the Hebrews writer demonstrates this in chapter 11 that God looked for faith as the essence for acceptability. "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided SOME BETTER THING FOR US, that they without us should not be made perfect." ( Heb 11:39,40).
Really, thank you very much again Chris. For being so kind in your reply. God Bless you my brother in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. You are always in my prayers.
Your attitude & heart's response to those without Christ on this side of the grave, was very special to read & worthy of praise to the Lord for His Work of Grace & Humility that He has done, & is doing, in your life. That in very truth ought to be the attitude of every Spirit-filled child of God, looking not in condemnation on the evil in others, but recognizing the great deception that they're under with their resulting follies, for which their only healing balm can be faith in the shed Blood of Jesus. And even to pray for those who hate or persecute us does indeed take a great measure of love & compassion for them, which only can come from the Spirit of Love & Grace. And with such a Spirit, how can one ever wish for the suffering of another whether in life or death. May we, as we study the operation of God, as One Holy, Merciful & Just, lead us into His Truth that we may both love & warn others accordingly. May the Spirit of Christ be your ever-present Help & Guide Richard, in your life which is in Christ, in God.
Thank you so very much for your warm reply my brother. I really appreciate it. As having anyone to converse about the Lord with is a Blessing to me. What I myself feel most important is, with scriptures in OT, how the lovingkindness, mercy, grace, and compassion of God is so great. And it endureth forever. How His thoughts, and ways, are so high above our ways. Then reading of the teachings of Jesus Christ of say "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you". In Luke "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."
Things like these are truly moving to me and make me feel so humble. His love is so great it is marvelous. As I have seen a person on death row who was an ex satan worshipper. Killed his mother and father along with another person. He was speaking out on how real satan worship was. At the end he stated that the only way out is Jesus Christ. Trying to help others pointing them toward the Lord. As clearly he had an experience with Christ. Seeing things like this and how many other wicked people the Lord will save, to now have them on His side, is amazing.
My love and forgiveness goes out to everyone. Even the most wicked people have my prayers. The only thing I look down upon is satan and evil itself. Not people. The Lord can save anyone. I do not wish harm or bad on anyone. Especially I would not want someone to be tortured forever. As we know the only one given the right to be the Judge is Jesus Christ. And if I am wrong, and my love is too great, the Lord will guide me where He wants me.
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