Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Bronson Toliver on Revelation 12
    Can someone please pray for me i am in 9th grade, and have huge temptations, and everyday continue to deny the word of God and it makes me feel so guilty and i just really need help please i dont want to go to Hell and the end times are scaring me very bad.
  • Drew - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Bronson. I pray that our Father lead you to make decisions that will not be offensive to Him. I also pray that you will pray for understanding of His Word, to make a full study of His Word and begin to take action on those things that you believe to be true about His Word.
  • Victoria - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. You are on the right track cause we all should fear God. Pray for strength, guidance, to be delivered from temptations and evil. God and Jesus will hear you and will protect you. Remember, we serve The Father and Saviour, not mortal man. God says the more you resist satan, he will flee from you. Peer pressure is a tough obstacle but, God and Jesus are greater than anything you can encounter in life. God is a loving, forgiving, trustworthy God. Keep praying. God and Jesus will never leave or forsaken you. Depend on God and Jesus. They will not let you down. God Bless you.
  • William - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Bronson, You do not go to hell for not perfectly living up to God's standard, in fact, you cannot. It is only by faith in Jesus Christ and His death and ressurection for your sin, that saves you. John 3:16-18,36. Romans Chapters 4 and 5. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. May He provide understanding and help to you in this matter.
  • Adam - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi William,

    I'm sure you're aware that many Christians would disagree with your saying that 'you cannot' go to hell. On the contrary, Jesus spent quite a bit of time in parables and teaching his followers (Christians) warning them against sinning. So, I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that this young person is somehow immune from going to hell? It literally says in the Bible to fear the Lord. Jesus said that himself. Matthew 10:28

    Satan probably doesn't want people to fear Him though, he loves deceiving people into thinking they can sin all they want with zero consequence. The Bible already clearly says most people will go to hell- narrow is the way. And even not all Christians will get in either. Matthew 7:23. Some people should actually be afraid. But if we actually genuinely follow Jesus then we can put our faith and trust in Him and God's grace. Not all 'Christians' follow Jesus or try to avoid sin is the problem. It's especially concerning that people don't think they can commit blasphemy. It says clear as day that people who do this WILL NOT go to heaven. People have freewill and you don't know what they'll choose in the future. Even angels in heaven had freewill to sin and they did- hence satan and demons. God bless.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    You make some good points on fearing God and that there are those that do end up in Hell. However, Angels in Heaven did not sin, nor were the Angels of God cast out of Heaven. Satan was not in Heaven where God dwells and where those saved from sin spend eternity.

    Angels have no will of their own, making it impossible for them to sin. Satan was not an Angel of God that rebelled and was then cast out. Yes there are areas in the Bible that talk about Satan in heavenly places such as in Job, where Satan and God were discussing or debating, whatever we want to call this interaction in consideration of Job. But Satan was never in the Heaven talked about as in Heaven vs Hell, places souls spend eternity.

    The probable area that seems to indicate Satan was in Heaven and cast out is represented in Isaiah 14 starting in verse 4 "...take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." Here the description of Babylon's king Nebuchadnezzar and his fall from power and being turned into a beast as depicted in Daniel 4 begins. Another depiction of what would happen to the king as told by 2 accounts in 2 different ways. In Isaiah 14:12 we read "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Isaiah 14 is still talking about a man, the king of Babylon. In verse 16 it confirms that a man is still being discussed. "...Is this the man that made the earth to tremble..." Would you call Satan a man? Satan and Lucifer are not the same; Lucifer was an alternate name, a nickname maybe, of Nebuchadnezzar.

    If Angels in Heaven can sin, and you or I can be thrown out of Heaven, does it sound like such a great reward as we otherwise think it to be? Why are we required to be sinless to enter Heaven, yet after arriving we can sin again once there? Isn't part of the reward of gaining Heaven to not be in or around sin, sinful things, and the temptation to sin? Sin and the sinful cannot enter Heaven.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    David, it is true that Isaiah 14:4ff refers to the king of Babylon, yet it appears that his wickedness was likened to Lucifer (= the shining one). And that not only his rule, but also his destiny would be as assigned to Lucifer. The King probably entertained such thoughts in his heart also, as 'exalting himself above anyone else on Earth or in Heaven even to be equal to God', which he was considered during his rule. So the reference is to the king, but clear allusion to Lucifer, the spirit that controlled the king, both in his mental aspirations & wickedness as a regent.

    As further support, we have Ezekiel chapter 28, where a similar wicked prince is taken over the coals: the Prince of Tyrus. He too made similar claims (v2). Then Ezekiel took up a lamentation over him (vv 12-19) with words that clearly show that the prince could not possibly be the one that is only referred to here (vv 13-16) & that there is another one that perfectly fulfilled this, indeed was instrumental in the prince's behaviour. Words such as 'anointed cherub' & 'perfect in the ways from the day thou was created' can't be applied to the prince, rather strongly reveals Satan who was once pure & holy 'until iniquity was found in thee' who was the prince's influence.

    So the question comes back to your thoughts: 'if angels have no will of their own, how can they then sin'? Herein, our understanding ceases as we're not told how this can happen. But because it happened, we should not remove all references to Satan/Lucifer as one who was never in Heaven as a cherub. And, we're not required to be 'sinless to enter Heaven': we are still saved & sanctified sinners who will be renewed in every way, outfitted for life in Eternity. Only Jesus is seen as a sinless Man now glorified in Body & in worship, at His Father's right Hand.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    So the blood of Jesus does no better as atonement for our sins than the bulls and goats of the Old Testament. This is what you believe and want me to believe if Jesus cannot save you from sin now. If Jesus cannot save you from sin now, why did He die? Why did He bother to sacrifice Himself if it's no different than the Old Testament animal sacrifices? I know there is a difference in these sacrifices, and I know Jesus saves from sin here on Earth, if you truly repent. Those that aren't saved from sin, and those that say they are sinners saved by grace, do not want to stop their sins, so they've made false doctrines like this.

    This is just an example to get you to think. Suppose your sin is murder. You kill somebody else, you are arrested, put in jail, and are then taken to trial. The judge asks you what your plea is. "Your honor, we're just sinners saved by grace. I couldn't help myself." The judge will sentence you to life in prison or the death penalty as this judge will not buy the saved sinner and cannot help yourself plea. Yet you want us to believe God will buy the story that you can't help yourself when you face Him at the last judgement. God will not buy your saved sinner excuse to remain a sinner. He sent Jesus to save you from sin. And if you die in sin, your sentence is eternity in Hell.

    The act of repentance in which people are saved from sin includes forgiveness of the penalty, removing the guilt, and breaking the power of sin. If it is real repentance and if you are serious that is. However, many people that claim to be a Christian claim He cannot save from sin. So let's be clear, if you are sinning still, you are not saved. You will not go to Heaven if you die in sin. Now is the time to be saved from sin. The Judgement Day is set aside to judge you not to save.
  • Nathan Unger - in Reply on Revelation 12
    So how is then that David asks God to cleans him from secret sins Link

    And what does it mean that those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin Link

    And of course 1 John 1:8 Link

    "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

    This issue of sanctification is not so neat and to me for one to speak of ceasing from sin without delving into the aforementioned and the verses that speak to the security of the believer throughout John's Gospel do risk a myopic approach to the whole thing.

    jhmo
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Nathan, just trying to answer your questions. David, being in the Old Testament, had carnality in his heart. So that account was true that he had hidden or secret sins. Jesus had yet to die on the cross to make the way for salvation and sanctification that are available today. Acts 2 is the first account of sanctification being given to many. Sanctification is not normally going to be a public display of fire and noise. However, this particular account in Acts 2 was a very large gathering, and God wanted to draw attention to those that were preaching His word. This was not a pentecostal filling of the Holy Ghost, there were not unknown languages except that the apostles were speaking in foreign tongues or languages that they did not previously know. God enabled them to speak other known languages to go to other lands and preach the Word of God. Acts 2:8 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Those that heard the talk understood the words.

    Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Being saved is evident; brethren and living sacrifice, not dead in sin.

    1 John 1:7, 9 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Here it says being cleansed from all sin and then forgiving sins and cleansed from unrighteousness. And vs 6 mentions walking in darkness, that is from the stain of sin. Vs 8 there are those that believe they have no sin to be forgiven, vs 10 is similar. How then does vs 7, 9 say we will be cleansed of sin? Sin of the past, which all have done, needs repented of. Then we are free from committed sins, and need to go on to sanctification to be fully free from sin.
  • Nathan Unger - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Revelation 13:8 would cast great doubt on the notion that O.T. Saints were saved in a way other than we are and would cause me to re-examine my beliefs on why King David asked God to cleans him from secret faults.

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

    Again. Just saying.

    Blessings.
  • Nathan Unger - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Thank you for your "reply" David.

    Have a nice day. I hope to see you in Heaven. Not of works lest any man should boast. To take either a Arminian or Calvinistic or just 1 point calvinistic (security of the believer) seems to be picking what you want to believe. The Bible is a paradox and a series of tests IMHO.

    You seem to be taking a very hard line on ceasing from sin, hope you're not proud of your position...

    Just sayin.

    Love,

    Nathan Samuel Unger
  • Nathan Unger - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Continued:

    I walked away in accordance with our Lord's imperative to rather be "hot or cold" and not lukewarm.

    What pain. What sorrow I have caused in the 24 some years since I first "walked away" from my faith.

    Today I have been through alot. Too much tbh. But His Grace is sufficient for me. I have strong desire to walk in righteousness and please The Master Potter. To allow Him to work out the Christian life through me.

    But my journey (which included learning of the "doctrine of eternal security" in my 20's via Calvary Chapel and Fundamental Baptist circles, and especially the Gospel of John) has not been so neat and tidy. I am struggling with methamphetamine addiction and the guilt of two failed marriages. I trust Christ.

    What would you say to me or someone like me David Black? Not that I put my trust in a mans words these days, but I'm greatly interested in your take on a testimony like mine because you speak of a life that has stopped sinning.

    How would you comfort or tell someone to abandon all hope in a situation such as this? I'm interested because while I do not trust in man's words I love the Brethren and enjoy fellowship. (Just a few of what I perceive as evidence's of God's saving grace in my life)

    Awaiting your reply,

    Nathan Samuel Unger
  • Pain that is Not Yours Anymore - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Romans 3:23, FOR ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

    There is none righteous; no not one.

    Everyone in here is a sinner saved by GRACE.

    You need to ask God to wipe all those memories from your brain. Finally you will have rest from Satans accusations.

    I have a testimony as you will have; but I do not experience daily shame for things I did. I thought satan was a guy in a red rented costume. I was the big astrologer! Who took drugs and enough alcohol to float a ship. I didn't know how close to hell I was.

    My Past is hid in Christ now. It has no more power over me. Only Peace.

    Just ask Jesus to deliver you from those memories, fully. Then give your testimony to Jesus to use as He Wills.

    You will be free finally and forever. Everything on your account ledger in Gods Book will only show your name next to Jesus's Blood.

    Do it today.

    Mishael
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi again, Nathan. I am only taking the same hard line Christ Himself taught. There are quite a few differences in salvation from the Old vs New Testament times. OT animal sacrifices to appease God which was counted as salvation, according to the ceremonial law of Moses. These ceremonies can be seen described in Deuteronomy, Exodus for example. This tabernacle and ceremonial way was a type of the salvation Christ offers and for what He died on the cross to pay for. But there are differences. OT required atonement for sins yearly. NT if you repent your sins then you are saved from those sins in power over sin, in removing the penalty of sins committed, along with removing the guilt of sins of the past. Note again I do not mention sins of the present when regarding salvation, because God requires you to sin no more after salvation. If you sin presently but after salvation, you have backslid and are plunged back into sin. 2 Pt 2:22 gives an apt description, dogs turned to his own vomit again or sow that was washed returning to wallowing in mire. So too there are not future sins. You can't be saved from something you have yet to commit but plan on later. I know there's 2 works to obtain full salvation, repentance to salvation and sanctification of spirit. You can disagree if you so choose, but what I stated is correct. Not because I say it, but because it is what the Bible teaches.

    It would be great if we all made Heaven our home. God still has rules and those that obey will make it to Heaven. Those that reject the truth do not make it. We can choose to obey or not. We choose to believe the Bible or not. The Bible still says there's a Heaven and a Hell as places for spending eternity. Heaven for the ones that love and obey God and His Word and have been saved from sin. Hell is for all that reject His truths and die an unrepentant sinner. The kingdom of God includes all that are freed from sin, and excludes all that still sin against God. Sin is a willfully disobedience.
  • Nathan Unger - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi David.

    When a person quotes scripture I will never disagree. It's when we start with our exegesis that I am very very particular in agreeing or taking an opinion.

    You speak of full sanctification of the spirit. Agreed.

    So what would you say to a person who has had a muddied testimony or one who is struggling to stop sinning? How can a person repent and still have confidence in Jesus if they keep stumbling. Where does the will stop and start? Where / how does your take on faith and The Word account for the distinction of the flesh and the spirit?

    A bit of my testimony if I may. Raised by an Orthodox Jewish father and a converted from Protestant Christianity to the aforementioned mother I was taught both The Torah and about a man named Jesus who was the true Messiah respectively. My mom never gave up her faith in Jesus, on her death bed when the wrong flavor of minister came to her bed side she scolded him and said, "WE DON'T PRAY TO MARY". lol, but I digress.

    At the age of 13 I experienced an overwhelming up-springing of the aforementioned influences and felt a great hunger for the things of Faith. Now divorced my mom and my new step dad had a handful of Bibles around the house. I grabbed the first one I found, a NKJV "translation". I devoured the Gospel of Matthew. I said, "THIS IS IT! I must have Jesus!" I called on the Lord for salvation and asked mom if we could start going to church. She took me to a local Assembly of God church that her dad enjoyed here in the Valley of The Sun (PHX AZ) when he had visited. I don't know if you're familiar with AoG doctrines but they're essentially Arminian. I began to flourish until my victimization as a small child combined with the hormones of middle teen years and what I attribute to my own pride prevented me from seeking help and instead of struggling with "losing my salvation" every time a pretty girl passed in front of me in the class halls I did what little I knew from Matthew and Revelation. I walked away.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    David, are your comments directed to me? If so, they seem inconsistent to what I wrote earlier. Even leaving aside the matter about Lucifer, the Babylonian king & Prince of Tyrus, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I intimated that Christ's sacrifice was no better than the Jewish sacrifices of old. Of course, if you believe that Christ's sacrifice has now made all those who call upon Him, sinless, then that of course is a serious matter.

    The difference between the old sacrifices & the sacrifice of Jesus is that the old sacrifices were temporary, limited & served only to alert Israel to their sin & need for restitution. Christ provided the 'better' Sacrifice because it came out of God's Love sending forth His Word as a Man to be our substitution & to bear our penalty: being therefore Perfect, there was no further need for subsequent offerings & it was the only one that permanently averted God's Wrath from the sinner.

    You wrote, "God will not buy your saved sinner excuse to remain a sinner". I'm unsure where you got this idea from as I never spoke of a saved sinner excusing himself to commit sin. Yes, there are some who might hold to this belief, but it's from Hell - no sinner saved by God's immeasurable Grace to them, would ever desire or contemplate unrestrained sinful behaviour as his 'free right' through Christ.

    So maybe your comments were actually directed to my comment, "we're not required to be 'sinless to enter Heaven'". We are required to be forgiven, born again & Spirit-indwelt so as to have the Seal of God in us for entrance into Heaven, but not to be sinless. Can anyone ever say that he/she is sinless now, given the reality of our earthly existence & many follies? Would all the exhortation from the apostles & preachers today for us to turn away from the "sins that so easily beset us" all be wasted effort if the 'sinless' believer could never be drawn into sin? But maybe, I have misunderstood you in this matter, for which I apologize.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris,

    Yes my comment was for you, specifically in the end of your comments where you say "And, we're not required to be 'sinless to enter Heaven': we are still saved & sanctified sinners who will be renewed in every way, outfitted for life in Eternity."

    Repentance, salvation, and sanctification from sin through the blood of Jesus does not produce saved and sanctified sinners. Romans 12:1 refers to sanctification and says in part "ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God". Those guilty of committed sins are not the living sacrifice as sin makes one dead spiritually. A sinner is not holy nor acceptable.

    Think all the way back to Genesis 2:17 where God warned Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In verse 4 of chapter 3 the serpent told Eve God was wrong and she'd not die. God was referring to the effects of son and that it does cause the soul to die. Satan as the serpent deceived Eve by turning God's words of warning to mean not dying physically.

    Here is Titus 2:11, 12 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;". The problem is you excuse sin, saying sin still is present in the saved, where God offers salvation from sin.

    Matthew 1:21 Jesus was sent to save us from sin, not still in sin.

    If you want true salvation, you will stop sinning after being saved. If you want a watered down false doctrine, feel free to think you are saved and sanctified yet still sin. But be warned, when you are at the Judgement before God, He will remind you a saint of God told you in this comment area that salvation requires you to stop the sin business. (See Matthew 25:31-46) If any stand before God with sin that is not repented of and are still committing sin, they cannot enter Heaven and will be separated from the sheep. And as a goat, be sent to Hell for eternal punishment.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    If that is so, then it would mean that our views of Christ's Sacrifice are in conflict, rather than us being overwhelmed by your admission of being sinless. From the Scriptures, I understand that Jesus' Sacrifice was wholly a legal matter to meet the Father's Holy Demands. For if Christ had not come to give His Life, we would have no means to successfully hope for forgiveness & acceptance to God. Whereas I see the Cross as a judicial issue where God's Judgement against our sins were brought to bear upon Jesus, which you might view as also a providing a purifying, sanctifying, removal action of our sins past, present & future. And this I see as not a specific work of the Cross but the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in those who've responded to the Cross.

    But then again, I could be entirely wrong in your position & understanding, so I'll leave this option open without prejudice to you in any way.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 1.

    David. Others have also written in line with my understanding of the Scriptures & the realities of living in a sinful world in a body with two natures: one of the old nature & the other of the Spirit of God. To the old nature, Satan makes his appeal & we may stumble, may sin & we confess it, unlike to the new nature that is of God & cannot give into sin (1 John 3:9). To this existing old nature you disagree of course.

    Would I then be correct in understanding that your view of the Blood of Christ & its eternal efficacy to keep you always clean (i.e. to be without sin), that at any intrusion of temptation & sin into your life, that Blood immediately cleanses you, keeping you spotless? Is this therefore what you are referring to: "that you are without sin" that even before a confession, the Blood of Christ has already taken effect, hence no need for any alarm or a confession? So, temptation can come to you, but at its birth as sin, you are cleansed & thus remaining sinless. Therefore, you would have nothing to do, as the Blood's efficacy is constantly at work in your life to keep you spotless. I'm sorry that I'm trying to dig deep here, since you have rebuffed others on other grounds, when we might not actually be coming to grips with your understanding of the Cross.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris,

    Let's see if this answers what you want to know. I used to sin. I had not believed much about God for some time back then actually. I did when I was very young, but in my teens I lost concern for what God thought. In my 20's I was already hooked on cigarettes and alcohol. There's others as well in the past, but let this suffice. I heard of the Church of God in Manassas, VA. It was mentioned to me by an Aunt that goes there. I went to a camp meeting there in July 1994 when I was 25 years old. During the evening service 7/4/1994, I went to the altar after that service, and I prayed a prayer of repentance with the pastor from my local congregation. I repented of my sins and was then saved from sin. Repentance delivered me from the sins of the past only. Later, when I understood it's meaning, I was sanctified. This took care of my carnal heart by asking God to remove the carnal nature and to be filled with His Spirit. By the way, I am not pentecostal, I do not speak in tongues to show I am saved or sanctified. A holy life should be evidence enough.

    Temptation still exists, but the power of God gives me the ability to say no and not yield to it. However, if I'd ever decide to yield to temptation, I could if I chose to but at the cost of salvation. If I yield to any temptation, I will lose salvation and sanctification.

    I don't know if this answers your question. But in all seriousness, salvation and sanctification are pretty simple to understand. If you do things God's way, it is simple. Again, I used to sin until salvation. Now I don't after salvation. Temptation does exist, but temptation alone is not sin. Yielding to it is sin.

    Salvation alone takes care of sins from the flesh. Sanctification takes care of the heart. Both together make one where God designed us to be from the beginning, saved and sanctified eliminates sin committed and sin inherited.

    Hope it makes sense because that is my testimony. I used to serve Satan as master. Now I serve God alone.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    b. even given that you are able to avoid such sins & remain sinless, the question arises: can a person who has no sin (therefore no sin nature) can, even in temptation's provocation, contemplate whether he chooses to sin or not? I'm certainly not in that position because I know when temptation comes, its appeal is to my sin nature & from there I make the decision with the Spirit's help & word to my heart. But if no sin nature exists (as was also with Jesus), then how can there be a choice to sin or not, as there's no evidential sin in you & nothing for that temptation to take hold of to cause sin?

    For sin to take root there must of necessity be a 'fertile' ground for it to germinate - & in your case (as you say) you only have the new nature given by the Spirit (the old being done away with), & this new nature simply cannot be invaded by all manner of evil. So, as I see it, you don't really have a choice to sin or not - your nature doesn't allow you to have one.

    Truly, a very difficult concept for me to grasp.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 1.

    Thanks again David for taking the time to answer me & sharing your testimony. That does answer my question except for my assumption from your earlier comments, that you are 'sin free & as such when temptation comes to you, sin cannot take hold'. However, you've clarified that part: "Temptation still exists, but the power of God gives me the ability to say no and not yield to it. However, if I'd ever decide to yield to temptation, I could if I chose to but at the cost of salvation".

    So you've now raised a couple of questions in my mind. All of us who are born again & indwelt by the Spirit have the power to say "No" to sin's prodding at our heart's door, but in reality no one, so far whom I've met, has been able to testify that no sin has been able to get through to them. But you say that you remain sinless enjoying perpetual victory. So my questions:

    a. an elementary question first off: is the type of sin that you refer to, the same as is generally understood? By this I mean, sin incorporates much more than what most regard as evil (viz. murder, theft, lying, adultery, etc.). The sins of worry, pride, selfishness, lack of (agape) love or forgiveness, anger, frustration, gossip, coveting, unhealthy thoughts, gluttony, hypocrisy, jealousy, egotistic, self-righteous, hidden sins of the mind, & many more are examples. Praise God if you are able to shun all such sins as well.
  • Norman Walker Butch - in Reply on Revelation 12
    I believe what the Bible says and if you do then no one is free from sin. I try very very hard not to sin and what I do is say the Ten Commandments one by one and try and judge myself from that, one by one and talk about each one to myself. I will never every add to or take away from anything the Bible says. If I do not know for sure I say so. I do know that from doing this I am getting better and better at doing my best not to sin. I love Jesus Christ with all of my heart and I am a very firm believer. It is so easy for me to believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it. Just look at the Sun, burns at the perfect temp. to keep us alive and never has run out of fuel so how many things do you know that burn and never burn out. The earth is a perfect world to keep us alive and just look at the millions of different living things on this earth. My friends the heavens and the earth did not evolve it was created by God. Amen
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris, I'll try to clarify more as best as possible. Sin is the things you mention such as lying, stealing, murder. It also can be gossip and similar acts with evil intent. A very basic definition of sin is doing or not doing that which is against the will of God. Sin can be not doing what God says. Think of Jonah, God gave the order to witness to Nineveh, but he ran from the task.

    Ex: An evil thought enters the mind. You decide what to do with it, to cast it out or harbor it in your heart. If you cast it out, it's over. Victory against temptation. If it goes into the heart to continue, there is where sin develops and one begins to act out on it. See 1 Co. 10:5 "Casting down imaginations" I can only resist temptation because of God's Spirit in my heart from sanctification. Exodus 2: Judas; things such as covetousness/love of money was a temptation, he harbored it in heart and acted by betrayal for 30 pcs silver. Luke 22:3 Satan entered Judas because he did not cast temptation out but rather dwelled on it and acted on it. We know the rest, he betrayed Jesus and later regretted it, then in despair hung himself. He was saved at one time, temptation took hold, he betrayed Jesus, and lost out.

    James 1:12-15 "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation" Fact, all are tempted, but temptation does not become sin unless you let it linger in the heart. Temptation itself is not the sin but if it reaches the heart then it becomes sin.

    Consider these too; Ep. 4:3-6 Only 1 God who teaches all the same, no confusion in 1; 1 Corinthians 14:33, 1 Corinthians 1:10 speak the same thing, not language but in belief.

    I did not always know much about God. When I got saved, the Holy Spirit taught me truth and I then can read and understand the mysteries in the Bible. And to be clear, salvation and sanctification are 2 separate acts required to be fully saved from sin. Think OT tabernacle with 2 rooms, both with altars to apply blood sacrifice. Today Christ is the our sacrifice. If we believe and obey.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 3.

    There was no getting away from this fact: while he (& we) walk this Earth we have this nature from Adam (Romans 5:12) which makes us all sinners & the proof is in our experience of both spiritual & physical death.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    2nd part: some I may have to re-address as I was interrupted in thought.

    See Hebrews ch 7 and 9 where it is discussing the old testament versus the new testament. Not so much 2 Bible segments but the old animal sacrifice vs. the new provided by Jesus' death on the cross. The old could not save from sin as they had to sacrifice for sin yearly. Jesus paid the sin sacrifice so we will be free from sin through Him.

    He. 7:22 "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." How was/is it better? His blood atones for sin and breaks its power so we do not continue in sin. Would Jesus command man John 5:14 or woman John 8:11 to go and sin no more if we could not do so? With Jesus, we can be saved from sin, His blood sacrifice on the cross gave us power over sin to cease the sinning that corrupts the heart and defiles the soul.

    A part of my testimony is I am saved from sin. I had to be saved from sins I used to do. I have done so through repentance so that I am justified or saved. This took care of sins I did in my past. I also needed my heart cleansed from the inherited sin from Adam. This is sanctification. It is only given to those already free from sin via salvation. It includes having God remove the carnal nature from the heart and filling that space with His Holy Spirit. It doesn't make one speak in tongues as Pentecostals do. Salvation and sanctification are 2 fully separate steps at an altar in the Church building. See 2 Co. 5:17 my old sinful self is dead and I am a new person in Christ after salvation, even more so after sanctification.

    I can re-address later as needed. And I'm sure I didn't cover all questions. I will revisit in near future as I do want you to see where I am spiritually, without sin in the present or future, as after salvation I have not sinned. I do not claim I never sinned, just that I do not sin after God saved me. It is not me or my power, it is God's that gives grace and power to not do what I used to.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    And to your point: "where I am spiritually, without sin in the present or future, as after salvation I have not sinned". If I could develop that: if 'sinlessness' is indeed your present joyful position, then would you understand if I could describe your spiritual state as that of Adam & Eve before their fall? They were pure, sinless; had they remained that way, they would not have faced spiritual & physical death, as both these are products of sin. They would have lived on eternally in an incorrupt world.

    You are now sinless: would physical death finally overcome you, as it would for us? Of course, the Rapture (though I understand the a-millennial position of the Church of God) might prevent death from happening to you, but in biblical reality, you should as a sinless man never experience death. For the rest of us, death is a sure thing as in spite of our new justified position in Christ, our past sins that have corrupted our nature & our bodies guarantee our physical death.

    If you should say that you would still experience physical death because of the past corruption of the body, then that only shows the Truth of Romans 6:23, that the sin nature is still evident (maybe, not reigning in you), & the end of it must be a physical death; the spiritual death being averted through Jesus Christ. So with the removal of sin & the sin nature, there must of necessity be no further corruption of the physical body leading to physical death.
  • David W Black - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Hi Chris, I'll try to add into the ongoing discussion. Let's consider Paul in Romans 7. It appears that Paul starts giving his account of his own past starting in verse 7, as here he starts mentioning "I" as in I had not known sin. He then goes on to tell us his past experiences with sin and the warring within. I do not see a change of historical present until a change seen in Ch. 8 where Paul then begins declaring no condemnation and freedom as a current status.

    Judas may or may not be a great example, so let's stick with Paul instead. He was present when Stephen was stoned, mentioned in Acts 7:58. Acts 8:1 Saul or Paul is mentioned again as consenting to Stephen's death, and having authority to apprehend Christians, sending them to jail, persecuting the Church. Acts 9, Saul/Paul was converted from sinful to saved. He acknowledged the Lord, and though it's not fully described, Paul repented there. Acts 9:17 Ananias prayed with Brother Saul who had to be saved to be a spiritual brother, received sight and was filled with the Holy Ghost, sanctification only does this. Paul then begins to preach in vs 20. From now on, Paul no longer took Christians prisoner but taught apn preached about Jesus and salvation from sin. Also note that the Jews that once held Saul in admiration for capturing Christians, now fought against him, and sought to kill him. Salvation and sanctification change people so much that friends of the past look and act differently towards the saved. Paul was feared by the apostles, but later they recognized the changes God had made in Paul's heart and actions. There is a need that others can see the change in a person that is saved.

    Similar to Adam due to my saved and sanctified experience? Yes, excepting Adam and Eve were created sinless and I had to gain sinless life via repentance to be saved and then later to be sanctified to be rid of the inherited sin passed on from Adam's fallen state.

    I'll add more later. Hope this helps some. Good day to all.
  • Chris - in Reply on Revelation 12
    Page 2.

    Re: Adam's first sinless state. Again, allowing your comment: "Yes, excepting Adam and Eve were created sinless and I had to gain sinless life via repentance to be saved and then later to be sanctified to be rid of the inherited sin passed on from Adam's fallen state." I agree, the corruption that came to you (& me) because of sin has remained with us, but your claim to now be sinless (= no inherited sin) through sanctification, tells me that all corruption has now been removed from you, or else you can't be sinless. However, once corrupt, the flesh remains in that condition (death being its final proof) in spite of a miraculous spiritual renewal by God. If God through His Son's Sacrifice would also remove that corruption, then you would be like Adam pre-fall & never fall ill, be diseased or die - it's impossible, as it would destroy the whole meaning of being incorruptible. Both Adam & Jesus could not die naturally, whether by disease or old age. Adam eventually did die because he was a sinner with a corrupt nature - Jesus did die because He was sinless but chose to surrender His Life: John 10:18, "No man taketh it (My Life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

    The one who is sinless, has no corrupt nature & therefore can never die, as death is the final product of sin, which sin you aren't in possession of, as you believe.


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